Guild Wars 2

So seems to me from all the information i have slowly been compiling, a vast majority of folks are just saying " spec tanky " or " gear tanky" so what i am getting slowly from all of this is. Use a cookie cutter build/spec that uses tons of toughness/vit or get one shot constantly? cause what sounds like to me…and more i read about it more i feel inclined to agree with them.

One might say just dodge everything but we all know dodging every attack in game is impossible. Worse it seems that AI in game is actually designed to detect any class/player has lowest possible defenses and seek them out. SO again…not only did Anet lie when they said could play the way you wanted, they designed the game to PUNISH anyone that isn’t spec’d heavily or moderately into defensive lines.

i kinda feel lied to by Anet everything i heard was that old system of trinity was gone, wouldnt be any cookie cutters and we could play way we wanted and do all the content but that….clearly isn’t the case here. So i guess will end up like every other mmo with everyone just finding cookie cutter spec and using it and anyone wants to be dps, being tossed to the wayside for more tanky specs?

somehow that…just doesnt sound fun…

I haven’t really touched a “tanky” spec at all during my trip to 80. My build centered around mobile greatsword use against groups with a focus on lighting up targets and keeping them on fire. It was very damage focused.

Sounds to me like you’re just blaming the game for your shortcomings. You need to deprogram yourself from that WoW mindset; see, you’re trying to choose one role and stick with it. You can’t do that in this game. If you’re tearing into an enemy from afar and he turns his attention to you, you need to stop that damage and start rockin’ that control or he’s going to run up to you and smack you around like Lawler did to Kaufman. And when you are getting hit, you’re not supposed to dodge every attack, nor is dodge supposed to be the end-all be-all of damage mitigation. There are skills that allow you to nullify pretty much every kind of attack in the game, buff you to the point where those attacks become negligible (protection), but the big one I see a lot of people missing is control. Crippling and kiting, putting up barriers, fear, that kind of stuff. This especially rings true while soloing, which is good, because people could really use the practice playing control roles in dungeons.

Just go back into that game realizing that a lot of fights will require you to change tactics given the situation. You can’t just stand in one spot and spam a rotation in this game. You need to duck out and heal sometimes. Sometimes you gotta shake off a snare and pop a skill that closes the distance. Sometimes you gotta pop skills that put some distance in. Learn your skill bar, learn what works best for those situations, and you’ll be on the road to learning the three new roles and when to do them effectively.

The reason you are getting one shot constantly is because you aren’t bothered to avoid damage, you are just standing there like akitten

Why do people assume people are not dodging and moving, and actually trying to avoid damage? i find it kind of insulting that people just assume that everyone that complains about insta gibs are just standing there in the red circles drooling.

You know what they say about assuming things right?

As someone that played DCUO pretty hard core through its early days, was one of its core founding pvpers(and heck my guide is still the go to place for beginners) i understand the concept of " dun stand in the fire lawl" so please don’t think i’m just bad.

Control isnt the answer either, is no way in gods green earth can chain CC anyone to death when 90% of those CC’s only last a couple of seconds.

Blind: next attack

Chill: 3-5 seconds and most enemies have a higher move speed then you do

Stun: most i’ve seen is 3 seconds, average is 1 second

ect ect

Is no way in heck you are going to CC a mob for an entire fight if he targets you so again i call bullkitten on anyone says that is the answer because believe me as someone that LOVES CC focused classes(i was a troller in CoH/V in fact i often replace the tank do to my spec being able to mass lock down entire dungeons easily).

PEOPLE need to stop assuming that everyone that gripes about dieing is some scrube because i understand how to avoid damage. My point was and remains that, you are forced into a cookie cutter spec least you die easily and struggle to get by.

etc* :P

I agree on the amount of time CCs are up for. My thought is that this is for PvP balancing – but i’d be totally down with ANet having a PvP and a PvE duration.

I get what your saying and it’s happening, pretty much the build is now HP and resists. Why is that? it’s the system that does it, for when you attempt to go into say a crit line or others, it’s a waste. The numbers just don’t add up and that is the issue. Game is still a blast, but this will continue till more balancing is done. So far I have to say the devs are doing a great job hammering out bugs and other things. I have no doubt this will be addressed. IF you think about it, we are what? only a month in after release?

Lokai.7850:

PEOPLE need to stop assuming that everyone that gripes about dieing is some scrube because i understand how to avoid damage. My point was and remains that, you are forced into a cookie cutter spec least you die easily and struggle to get by.

Obviously you are going to die easily if you go with pure damage and no defense. Should be pretty obvious.

But seeing as how I’ve ran all of the dungeons, multiple times each and on different modes, and only just flat out failed and gave up twice, your whole argument is just ridiculous.

Unless you want to try to make the statement that every single pug I have played with (and that’s all I play with) has been using “cookiecutter” builds…but then I guess that statement is just ridiculous as well.

It’s definitely a L2P issue.

ohac.8720:

I get what your saying and it’s happening, pretty much the build is now HP and resists. Why is that? it’s the system that does it, for when you attempt to go into say a crit line or others, it’s a waste. The numbers just don’t add up and that is the issue. Game is still a blast, but this will continue till more balancing is done. So far I have to say the devs are doing a great job hammering out bugs and other things. I have no doubt this will be addressed. IF you think about it, we are what? only a month in after release?

The level 80 build I’ve used for the majority of the dungeons has a whooping 20 points invest into Vitality and Toughness in total, and that’s mostly just for the traits.

Apathy.6430:

Lokai.7850:

PEOPLE need to stop assuming that everyone that gripes about dieing is some scrube because i understand how to avoid damage. My point was and remains that, you are forced into a cookie cutter spec least you die easily and struggle to get by.

Obviously you are going to die easily if you go with pure damage and no defense. Should be pretty obvious.

But seeing as how I’ve ran all of the dungeons, multiple times each and on different modes, and only just flat out failed and gave up twice, your whole argument is just ridiculous.

Unless you want to try to make the statement that every single pug I have played with (and that’s all I play with) has been using “cookiecutter” builds…but then I guess that statement is just ridiculous as well.

It’s definitely a L2P issue.

no called zerg rushing and dieing alot, i’ve tried a couple of dungeons so far, and my group and i never got very far. Why? generally its because no one is spec’d right to do it, you need someone who is healing, some one who is ccing, and some one who is buffing to do these things. This requires a certain build, spec, and gear set up or it becomes a " rush down enemies and die, run back, rush down run back, die rush down ect" are they doable? of course! but that doesn’t make them fun in any regard… and i personally don’t want to regear myself, respec myself, just so i can do dungeons… i want to play the game and enjoy myself.

i can do all the dynamic events for the most part only a few bosses i have to watch… but when comes to dungeons? you better be spec’d in cookie cutter build or you are just going to be handed a GIANT repair bill.

Lokai.7850:

Why? generally its because no one is spec’d right to do it, you need someone who is healing, some one who is ccing, and some one who is buffing to do these things.

Lol, no.

It is because you guys refuse to learn how to play.

The mere fact that you claim a “healer” is required just shows you have not the foggiest idea what you are doing.

Lokai.7850:

no called zerg rushing and dieing alot, i’ve tried a couple of dungeons so far, and my group and i never got very far. Why?

Because you’re zerg rushing and don’t know how to play. And then you come here after failing and when people tell you how to play, you get defensive because you think you know how to play but you actually don’t. That statement alone proves my point; you can’t just zerg through a dungeon. Not reasonably, anyway.

Sorry, bro, but the only advice we can give you is just get better instead of blaming the game for your inability to play it. Trust me, the process will go a lot faster if you stop misdirecting your anger.

Lokai.7850:

So seems to me from all the information i have slowly been compiling, a vast majority of folks are just saying " spec tanky " or " gear tanky" so what i am getting slowly from all of this is. Use a cookie cutter build/spec that uses tons of toughness/vit or get one shot constantly? cause what sounds like to me…and more i read about it more i feel inclined to agree with them.

One might say just dodge everything but we all know dodging every attack in game is impossible. Worse it seems that AI in game is actually designed to detect any class/player has lowest possible defenses and seek them out. SO again…not only did Anet lie when they said could play the way you wanted, they designed the game to PUNISH anyone that isn’t spec’d heavily or moderately into defensive lines.

i kinda feel lied to by Anet everything i heard was that old system of trinity was gone, wouldnt be any cookie cutters and we could play way we wanted and do all the content but that….clearly isn’t the case here. So i guess will end up like every other mmo with everyone just finding cookie cutter spec and using it and anyone wants to be dps, being tossed to the wayside for more tanky specs?

somehow that…just doesnt sound fun…

Learn 2 play!

Dodge-skills-traits and the right runes will help alot, if you stop thinking that alot of hp and toughness kill mobs you’ll be ok:P

Dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge.

i build PURE dps, 100% power, precision, and critdmg. i have no points in either toughness or vit lines, and i survive just fine.

it’s not only about dodging, you can move, too! in fact, I never STOP moving. Not only that, but EVERY class has an active block mechanic. USE it. I can get through any dungeon without dying.

Bosses don’t have enrages, and classes dont have resource pools. Not everything is a zerg. Hell, i was in a grp that took and HOUR to do kudu in SE-SM because the second golem healed through our conditions.

Adjust, adapt, move on.

dodge duck etc works great and you can do two within 10 sec usually, someone is still healing you thou, someone is still cc’n , tell me u can run any dugeon with one class type and I will eat a hat. Just saying, he has a point and while there is a obvious point here where the OP might not being using all their best moves, it’s true if you have all bases covered and your speced correctly you can make life in dugeon crawling go without a hitch. He didn’t say you can’t do it, just saying that if you spec your class and mix the classes correctly, doing dugeons do become allot easier and in the world of MMO’s, everyone that does any serious dungeon crawling will look for the best group mix/build to do them.

This bring the point of the trinity and more, when you get right down to it, gw has a trinity, just no dedicated healer class. Tank , dps, cc no prob I post this in almost every post I do just because it’s factual and there is no argument. Good groups will have casters that heal and have insta rez abilties slotted and go fig, mages have insta rez abilties, big suprise there all this did was kitten mages from dps.

ohac.8720:

dodge duck etc works great and you can do two within 10 sec usually, someone is still healing you thou

Nobody is healing you.

Why do people keep saying this? What the kitten.

Show me a vid man, someone is healing you in a dungeon period there is no way around this. Anything else in this game? I don’t argue it, in dugeons, I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

ohac.8720:

Show me a vid man, someone is healing you in a dungeon period there is no way around this. Anything else in this game? I don’t argue it, in dugeons, I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

Are you sure we are playing the same game?

Hello,

I dont think you need a cookie cutter build, specially cause that would mean using the same weapon/utility over and over.

That doesnt happen.

I ran ac story with 4 people that had no idea what to expect or do there, i was the only one. We never wiped once. And during the lovers only two got defeated ( me included) and ha to gy run back.

Why? How? Cause they listened.

No one changed their +power trait line, or any orher traits, they listened and quickly knew what to do during the fights. The only change of note was for the necro boss, where I suggested equipping condition removal utility, they did, not a single person died ( from damage or conditions).

Speccing vit and/or thoughness , sure helps, but only when your learning the encounter, after that your better off with pure dpsing or even a balanced approach, cause you already know what to do, therefor not needing that lifeline.

Tldr : use vit and though when learning, theyre not mandatory by any chance.

Others will heal you not it same way as you use to but by placing things on ground or have skill that heals you alittle overtime. There are no real super healing abillitys that some class can use its all work to gether and use some heal that also give others some. No one will stand at some spot keep spamming heals at yah lol this is not the game for that:)

ohac.8720:

Show me a vid man, someone is healing you in a dungeon period there is no way around this. Anything else in this game? I don’t argue it, in dugeons, I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

If you mean during downed state, yeah someone is healing you ( or should).

If you mean condition removal as a heal, sure.

Direct heals? Ive ran dungeons without healing ( someone else)or be healed ( by someone else) a single time. That rule not always applies.

Apathy.6430:

ohac.8720:

Show me a vid man, someone is healing you in a dungeon period there is no way around this. Anything else in this game? I don’t argue it, in dugeons, I would LOVE to be proven wrong.

Are you sure we are playing the same game?

Nah, dude, he’s playing zerg n’ wipe.

For reals though, nobody heals me more in a dungeon than me. Other guys are helping me out with control and support, yeah, but healing doesn’t play into it nearly as much as the self-heal does. Which I can’t say is a shock, considering that’s how ANet said it this game would be a while ago. Like… years ago.

ohac.8720:

tell me u can run any dugeon with one class type and I will eat a hat.

Hope you have a nice, tasty hat picked out. Given that Guardians can fill such a wide variety of roles it is only a matter of time till someone runs an all Guardian group through every dungeon in the game.

Better take a look at Elementalists, too. So better buy at least 2 of those yummy hats!

Colonel Kernel.7506:

ohac.8720:

tell me u can run any dugeon with one class type and I will eat a hat.

Hope you have a nice, tasty hat picked out. Given that Guardians can fill such a wide variety of roles it is only a matter of time till someone runs an all Guardian group through every dungeon in the game.

Better take a look at Elementalists, too. So better buy at least 2 of those yummy hats!

I’m fairly certain all story modes could be completed by full groups of any professions.

Minuscule AoE healing from Guardian and Elementalist are irrelevant.

Oh my god, imagine a group of 5 necros all rocking a dozen pets.

That needs to be done.

Apathy.6430:

Oh my god, imagine a group of 5 necros all rocking a dozen pets.

That needs to be done.

Yes!!!

Or five mesmers with illusion builds.

Madness. Chaining chaos storm and blurred frenzy.

Are you grouping with friends are random people? This is important because when the boss goes into a kill mode is your friendly guardian granting Aegis? Is your group rezzing you ASAP when you drop? Are you actually dodging? Yes you said “you can’t dodge everything” but you don’t have to. Regular boss attacks don’t typically one hit kill you. Its their specials.

You’re basically complaining that if you don’t specc into any defense it gets really hard to survive. Shocker! This is pretty much the holy trinity mentality where pure dps just assume they’ll be protected by the tank but it doesn’t work that way. If you want to be pure damage you need to assume you won’t get hit which is pretty hard to do, especially in a pug.

How can i be any clearer with what i was getting at… but first…

No healing? last i checked every single class has a support build, or weapon allows them to drop healing zones., or do aoe healing. As an ele using a staff i have several group healing abilities so no healing bit is utter bull. I would LOVE to see someone do a dungeon with no healing at all, and never die or zerg down a boss because i bet you cant do it.

What i was getting at was that idea that trinity is still alive and kicking if you do not have those 3 class types you will die alot, and to say " dodge " in response to anyone posting a gripe on dieing alot is bogus as well. Most bosses can move faster then you can so kiting means you need a snare, and i dont know about other classes but my ele doesnt have a spammable snare, and MOST of bosses i see are immune to CC effects anyway. oh but Lokai what dodge skill is for! except you can only dodge twice and then you are boned…

So once again, dodging isnt the answer now is kiting, is no possible way to kite any major enemy, plus is always the ranged mobs that can one shot you with normal attacks AGAIN! if you arent using optimal build/spec these things are nigh impossible and end up a giant repair bill!

STOP ASSUMING I STAND THERE LIKE Akitten

i never stop moving, i dodge when i see red circles or can actually see animation being played out, i use defensive utilities to best of my ability BUT they all have cooldowns! mist form, and arcane shield are both nice defensives BUT also have a large cooldown. Also love to see this active block mechanic the above poster mentioned because last i checked is only a dodge mechanic…

Lokai.7850:

No healing? last i checked every single class has a support build, or weapon allows them to drop healing zones., or do aoe healing. As an ele using a staff i have several group healing abilities so no healing bit is utter bull. I would LOVE to see someone do a dungeon with no healing at all, and never die or zerg down a boss because i bet you cant do it.

When they say “no healing”, they mean “no dedicated healing”. Healer is part of a wider term known as support, which includes more than just healing (damage mitigation is a good example of support), and every player is expected to do it when necessary. If they don’t, the group will fail.

Lokai.7850:

What i was getting at was that idea that trinity is still alive and kicking if you do not have those 3 class types you will die alot, and to say " dodge " in response to anyone posting a gripe on dieing alot is bogus as well. Most bosses can move faster then you can so kiting means you need a snare, and i dont know about other classes but my ele doesnt have a spammable snare, and MOST of bosses i see are immune to CC effects anyway. oh but Lokai what dodge skill is for! except you can only dodge twice and then you are boned…

Your ele does have other ways of controlling the boss or mitigating the damage it does to you, though, as well as putting distance between you and him. Staff skills alone have the following that are great for support and control during boss fights: Burning Retreat, Frozen Ground, Lightning Surge, Gust, Windborne Speed, Static Field, Magnetic Aura, Unsteady Ground, Shockwave.

it is simply not true, however often it is repeated on the forums. You do not need specific builds for the dungeons. I have been in PUGs most of the time, picking the first people that joined and it worked really well, without defining roles and people adjusting their builds. It is about playing your character well and using its setup to its most – it is as simple as that.

@ the OP.

I get what you’re saying and just a couple days ago I was thinking the same things you did.

I ran a dungeon, and died again, again, and again. I hated it, and started grousing to myself that we needed the trinity to do this.

Then . . . I bit the bullet and watched over two hours of videos about my class. Honestly I learned so much I was shocked at how bad I was in that group.

Running dungeons requires a lot of in the moment thinking, weapon swapping, talent swapping, and skill swapping. Every fight can need something different then what you’re doing.

One build, one weapon and one skill set will not get players through the dungeons unless it’s a zerg dying fest.

We all died over and over again due to a silly trap. What I and the other mesmer didnt know about our class was we could have done a combo masses shielded everyone, laid down a haste, set up a portal. blinked to the other side and set up another portal for everyone to go through.

There’s two ideas that were better than us just running through like idiots. I’m sure the more I try to learn the dungeons I’ll find tons of stuff I should and can do with just my class.

So far I’m starting to see the dungeons as a thinking team work encounter rather than a burn it all down fast fest.

Pugs will have to start typing in group to work together.

Lokai.7850:

cookie cutter build.

General stat allocation suggestions are not ‘builds’; builds are incredibly specific setups with particular traits and utilities. Poor choice of words.

Lokai.7850:

SO again…not only did Anet lie when they said could play the way you wanted, they designed the game to PUNISH anyone that isn’t spec’d heavily or moderately into defensive lines.

You know what ArenaNet actually said about their system? That you can build it into anything that you want, but their system is designed to promote versatility (read: balanced stat distribution between defence and attack).

Lokai.7850:

i kinda feel lied to by Anet everything i heard was that old system of trinity was gone, wouldnt be any cookie cutters and we could play way we wanted and do all the content but that

Cookie cutter =/= trinity. Also, most explorable encounters will force you to reassess your build and tailor it to that particular encounter. Is defence always the best solution? God no, far from it. People aren’t telling you that you have to spec tanky to survive, they’re telling you to spec tankier—you can’t glass cannon stuff in this game. Min-maxing is almost always a bad idea. It just sounds like you haven’t wrapped your head around the game yet. Play more, try different things out.

No developer can do away with cookie cutter builds. Cookie cutters are a product of player mentality, not game design or coding (at least in a game that offers you choices). There will always be a build that maximizes DPS or survivability and once someone discovers it and posts it, many players will flock to it and make it the “cookie cutter”.

That’s not to say that every combination of traits is ideal or that there are no traits or skills that could use tweaking. That said, how you build is ultimately up to you. If you want to maximize your damage then you have to understand and accept the trade off that you won’t be able to take a hit, or vice-versa. That’s good design.

Most often cookie cutter is the choice of the players, not a shortcoming of the game.

You can only be a bit more tank-ey in this game, you can’t be a proper tank; you can only be a bit more Support-ey, CC-ey, DPS-ey, you can’t and aren’t meant to specialize so that that any of these roles is all you can do.

I think Anet’s point is often misunderstood: there’s no need to totally get rid of the roles altogether, the point is just to get rid of the necessity to be fixed in one role and only that role, for one character, throughout its career.

gurugeorge.9857:

I think Anet’s point is often misunderstood: there’s no need to totally get rid of the roles altogether, the point is just to get rid of the necessity to be fixed in one role and only that role, for one character, throughout its career.

I’m going to take this one step further and say that you do not want to get rid of roles all together. If you do you have a mindless FPS/TPS with no strategy.