Conversation about Vinetooth Prime got me thinking about the Defiance Bar and how it works. Especially in regards to large, scaled-up bosses. It’s understandable that more Defiance would be added to compensate for more people able to use Hard CC.
Where I see things falling apart is in how Soft CC damages the bar. It ends up being fairly negligible in larger battles. It’s more noticeable in time-limited Defiance like Vinetooth or Matriarch.
Assuming a full complement of soft effects, that’s 363 Defiance/second.
In a 10-man group, that’s a hefty 24% per second.
In a 25-man group, that’s a paltry 8% per second.
And that’s under the best circumstances.
Fear, Taunt, and Slow aren’t the most readily-available statuses, so it’s more expected to be 138 Defiance/second.
10-man: 9%/sec
25-man: 3%/sec
Fairly dependent on group composition and player organization.
But for something like Vinetooth or Matriarch, that huge defiance/second change is painful to larger groups that already have to work harder per person. In the example above, a full battery of statuses in a 10-man would probably do 72% of the necessary Defiance damage for Vinetooth/Matriarch. In a 25-man group, it would only do 24%.
In a large group without the less common CC, and it’s down to maybe 9%.
It’s kind of a forehead slapping moment of “no wonder large group bosses are harder!” While, yes, the potential for inexperienced players unfamiliar with Defiance also rises at larger populations, it’s very hard not to apply a basic set of conditions, but those conditions don’t keep up.
Proposal!
The simplest and best answer: Scale soft CC damage with player group size.
If the wiki has it right, Defiance scales 30% per additional player above 5. Soft CC damage should scale similarly. Image link below shows a some different scaling values, and all look like drastic improvements above the baseline.
Citing:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Bar#Soft_control_effects
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Bar#Dynamic_scaling
And because the forums are being weird about pictures today:
https://imgur.com/oMOZsCK
I disagree. Soft CC, is as the nomination implies, soft. If the group needs to break a specific Defiance Bar, then players should be equipping hard CC, e.g. stuns, launches, etc. Furthermore, in encounters like Vinetooth Prime and Wyvern Matriarchs, the Defiance Bar window is far too short to rely on defiance-over-time effects, which again prompts the use of faster, harder CC.
I disagree. Soft CC, is as the nomination implies, soft. If the group needs to break a specific Defiance Bar, then players should be equipping hard CC, e.g. stuns, launches, etc. Furthermore, in encounters like Vinetooth Prime and Wyvern Matriarchs, the Defiance Bar window is far too short to rely on defiance-over-time effects, which again prompts the use of faster, harder CC.
. . Which is exactly the point I’m making. It doesn’t do anything to a Defiance bar, and the more players, the more worthless Soft CC becomes. Thus, soft CC needs scaling to keep up.
To spitball the number for Vinetooth/Matriarch, assume a 3-second window where soft CC can affect Defiance. A full stack of soft in a 5-man group does 1089 Defiance damage, out of 600. Not a single hard CC is necessary in that small group.
For the typical 25(ish) cluster, in that same 3-second window, that 1089 Defiance doesn’t even do 25% of the damage. That leaves every player responsible for 124 damage each. Pretty much everyone has to hard CC at that point, unless there’s a very prepared Mesmer, and even then, one Humiliation isn’t going to clear the buffer.
Even if Soft CC scaled with Defiance (30% per player above 5), Defiance scales at 900 per 5, where Soft CC scales at 544 per 5 players. A gap would exist that must be filled by Hard CC in larger groups.
It doesn’t do anything to a Defiance bar, and the more players, the more worthless Soft CC becomes. Thus, soft CC needs scaling to keep up.
The point is that (a) it’s not worthless, just not fast and (b) soft cc doesn’t need to be scaled since there’s already a solution — use hard CC when there’s little time. Mostly, that means explaining to players before fights what hard CC is, what skills offer it, and why it’s critical to save it for breaking the blue bar.
In other words, I agree with Oji above and disagree that there’s an issue that needs to be addressed.
I disagree. Soft CC, is as the nomination implies, soft. If the group needs to break a specific Defiance Bar, then players should be equipping hard CC, e.g. stuns, launches, etc. Furthermore, in encounters like Vinetooth Prime and Wyvern Matriarchs, the Defiance Bar window is far too short to rely on defiance-over-time effects, which again prompts the use of faster, harder CC.
. . Which is exactly the point I’m making. It doesn’t do anything to a Defiance bar, and the more players, the more worthless Soft CC becomes. Thus, soft CC needs scaling to keep up.
To spitball the number for Vinetooth/Matriarch, assume a 3-second window where soft CC can affect Defiance. A full stack of soft in a 5-man group does 1089 Defiance damage, out of 600. Not a single hard CC is necessary in that small group.
For the typical 25(ish) cluster, in that same 3-second window, that 1089 Defiance doesn’t even do 25% of the damage. That leaves every player responsible for 124 damage each. Pretty much everyone has to hard CC at that point, unless there’s a very prepared Mesmer, and even then, one Humiliation isn’t going to clear the buffer.
Even if Soft CC scaled with Defiance (30% per player above 5), Defiance scales at 900 per 5, where Soft CC scales at 544 per 5 players. A gap would exist that must be filled by Hard CC in larger groups.
However, I argue that the current soft CC damage to a scaling Defiance bar is fine. An encounter scaled towards 5 players should inherently be easier than one scaled for 25. When approaching these encounters, it should be up to the players to make the meaningful choice between more damage, survivability, or hard crowd control effects when deciding their skill and weapon loadout. This is also in consideration towards the accessibility of soft CC in most traits or weapon skills.
On the flip side, increasing soft CC damage in scaling situations would be detrimental for players during other encounters, such as the Mouth of Modremoth and the Chak Gerents. It would be much, much harder to control—no pun intended—the timing of Defiance Bar breaks should soft CC scale up.
Furthermore, 124 Defiance bar damage per player isn’t a lot to ask for. The Ranger’s ever favorite Point Blank Shot does 150, Warrior’s Bull’s Charge is 300, Dragon Hunters’ Hunter’s Verdict is 150, etc. It is therefore up to the players to have some manner of coordination for those fights, and more knowledgeable players to speak up to help newer players understand the encounter they are about to face.
The point is that (a) it’s not worthless, just not fast and (b) soft cc doesn’t need to be scaled since there’s already a solution — use hard CC when there’s little time. Mostly, that means explaining to players before fights what hard CC is, what skills offer it, and why it’s critical to save it for breaking the blue bar.
(a) The math literally proves otherwise.
The impact of static value from soft CC degrades in effectiveness as player size increases. In the very least, I’m asking for some better mathematical parity. Even the 15% scaling I detailed would keep soft CC relevant at higher group sizes.
(b) That’s either a high-concept decision to force “teamwork” or the result of a lapse of consideration on the part of soft CC. The latter is more likely. The result is persistent failures at bosses like Vinetooth or Matriarch taking 12+ minutes. The other result is veterans blaming the people instead of the system, then continuing to be upset when organizing 50 people’s worth of CC doesn’t pan out.
Even removing the conceptual points of who should be doing what (veterans teaching fights, higher burden on players to pick hard-CC, etc), mathematically, the burden on each player increases when there are more players present. That takes the ratio in the wrong direction. It should either be the same, for parity, or slightly lessen to compensate for the lack of large groups to coordinate.
An encounter scaled towards 5 players should inherently be easier than one scaled for 25.
Why should fewer players have an easier time than a large group? A small group might need to have one or two hard CCs (<40%) with or without soft CC (or zero if all of them are there). A large group needs 50%+ to participate, and each is going to need significantly larger individual contributions. That is seriously skewed. Even with high impact CC sufficiently high scaling can make even that impossible.
On the flip side, increasing soft CC damage in scaling situations would be detrimental for players during other encounters, such as the Mouth of Modremoth and the Chak Gerents. It would be much, much harder to control—no pun intended—the timing of Defiance Bar breaks should soft CC scale up.
The Mouth/Gerent statement is sadly valid. It comes from not just an unintuitive design choice, but an anti-intuitive one, instead of a conscious effort to adapt the conditions for what was needed. If MoM took most soft CC as an effect instead of Defiance (not like cripple/immobilize would matter), that would be a wonderful tactical option. A Slow on his bites would give the bombers more time to show up. If the bite had a cooldown, Chill would extend it. But Defiance is so all-or-nothing, there isn’t any give on that in combat design (so far as I know).
Furthermore, 124 Defiance bar damage per player isn’t a lot to ask for. The Ranger’s ever favorite Point Blank Shot does 150, Warrior’s Bull’s Charge is 300, Dragon Hunters’ Hunter’s Verdict is 150, etc. It is therefore up to the players to have some manner of coordination for those fights, and more knowledgeable players to speak up to help newer players understand the encounter they are about to face.
I can empathize with the idea that we as veterans should be contributing to teach newer players, and that as a whole ups our skill level. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try. But this expectation that some commander or group of veterans will always, spontaneously provide a full list of instructions to less experienced players is a pipe dream. And I’ve seen it go both ways and sideways. I’ve seen good commanders really encourage a group, I’ve seen zero people step up, I’ve seen the group flail even though the were instructions, and I’ve seen spiteful players deliberately troll an event for being told what to do.
What is the reasonable expectation of how many people do the event right when, even with instruction, will a newer player, or worse a bullheaded one, refuse to swap and use those skills? How much load is one player supposed to overtake on behalf of another and still feel like he wants to see other people on the map at all?
Furthermore, if it gets exponentially harder (as explained above) instead of linearly as group size increases, isn’t that somewhat contradictory to the point of an mmo? It seems to discourage grouping, and that seems more like an oversight or design defect than intended design. /shrug
Furthermore, if it gets exponentially harder (as explained above) instead of linearly as group size increases, isn’t that somewhat contradictory to the point of an mmo? It seems to discourage grouping, and that seems more like an oversight or design defect than intended design. /shrug
Since everything else about an encounter becomes easier with more people, needing people to provide a bare minimum for CC is not to much to ask for.
Furthermore, if it gets exponentially harder (as explained above) instead of linearly as group size increases, isn’t that somewhat contradictory to the point of an mmo? It seems to discourage grouping, and that seems more like an oversight or design defect than intended design. /shrug
Since everything else about an encounter becomes easier with more people, needing people to provide a bare minimum for CC is not to much to ask for.
Huh? Clearly, not all encounters get easier with more people, as is being discussed right here in this thread. And the question isn’t whether there should be some bare minimum of CC – it’s whether that minimum should rise linearly or exponentially with the number of players.
In other words, if a certain level of CC is required for five players, then in the case of ten players, should the minimum CC be double that, or quadruple?
Furthermore, if it gets exponentially harder (as explained above) instead of linearly as group size increases, isn’t that somewhat contradictory to the point of an mmo? It seems to discourage grouping, and that seems more like an oversight or design defect than intended design. /shrug
Not exponentially, though it might feel like it. I do want to keep that part honest.
Defiance climbs linearly, Base*0.3*players.
The issue I’m identifying is that one source of scaling is zero-order. Flat. Constant.
At a base of 600, Defiance raises by 180 per player. If everyone brought their hard-CC to the fight and executed flawlessly, that’s easily within reach of a few choice skills per profession. The assumption of 100% success, however, is impossibly high. Some can do 200 (about on par), but many do 100-150, which is a false hope when people think they’re bringing their hard-CC, but aren’t doing enough, and for everyone who doesn’t perform or under-performs, that means there needs to be several players with the “right” skills to take up the slack.
Though, the point stands that it does get harder per person added, and there are a lot of time-limited fights that have breaks which make veterans groan when there’s a large crowd doing them. And that is counter to one of GW2’s original philosophies.
Furthermore, if it gets exponentially harder (as explained above) instead of linearly as group size increases, isn’t that somewhat contradictory to the point of an mmo? It seems to discourage grouping, and that seems more like an oversight or design defect than intended design. /shrug
Not exponentially, though it might feel like it. I do want to keep that part honest.
Defiance climbs linearly, Base*0.3*players.
The issue I’m identifying is that one source of scaling is zero-order. Flat. Constant.At a base of 600, Defiance raises by 180 per player. If everyone brought their hard-CC to the fight and executed flawlessly, that’s easily within reach of a few choice skills per profession. The assumption of 100% success, however, is impossibly high. Some can do 200 (about on par), but many do 100-150, which is a false hope when people think they’re bringing their hard-CC, but aren’t doing enough, and for everyone who doesn’t perform or under-performs, that means there needs to be several players with the “right” skills to take up the slack.
Though, the point stands that it does get harder per person added, and there are a lot of time-limited fights that have breaks which make veterans groan when there’s a large crowd doing them. And that is counter to one of GW2’s original philosophies.
Yeah, I worded that poorly. It wasn’t the actual defiance but the perceived which seems to blow up, as a result of soft cc not keeping up with the scaling. I agree with that.
Soft CC should deal % damage to the defiance bar over time, since it can’t be stacked. Or, they need to make it so it can stack.
Soft CC should deal % damage to the defiance bar over time, since it can’t be stacked. Or, they need to make it so it can stack.
I considered percentage/second as well!
But, at lower values of Defiance (rolling devils, etc), soft CC would be devalued. Typically, an enemy “vulnerable to CC” has a small bar, so 1-2 seconds of CC should be enough. If, for example, Cripple did 5% Defiance/second, it would really help against a boss, but those smaller enemies would require 20 seconds to break.
Soft CC should deal % damage to the defiance bar over time, since it can’t be stacked. Or, they need to make it so it can stack.
I considered percentage/second as well!
But, at lower values of Defiance (rolling devils, etc), soft CC would be devalued. Typically, an enemy “vulnerable to CC” has a small bar, so 1-2 seconds of CC should be enough. If, for example, Cripple did 5% Defiance/second, it would really help against a boss, but those smaller enemies would require 20 seconds to break.
So, a percentage with a minimum value?
Soft CC should deal % damage to the defiance bar over time, since it can’t be stacked. Or, they need to make it so it can stack.
I considered percentage/second as well!
But, at lower values of Defiance (rolling devils, etc), soft CC would be devalued. Typically, an enemy “vulnerable to CC” has a small bar, so 1-2 seconds of CC should be enough. If, for example, Cripple did 5% Defiance/second, it would really help against a boss, but those smaller enemies would require 20 seconds to break.So, a percentage with a minimum value?
I could see base value +5% max or something similar. Probably not even that high.
There are 8 Soft CC statuses listed, and if each got even 1% of max per second, during a typical short period, that would yield probably 24% of the total.
For bosses without a timer on Defiance, that means a full battery of soft CC would kill the bar in 12.5 seconds without hard CC. Probably a little longer, since Defiance does regenerate over time (ludicrously so on some champions I’ve seen), so the soft CC does serve to keep that at bay as well.
Though I do wonder what the impact would be on raids. Hm.
So.. yeah, I could be rather content with that.
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