Guild Wars 2

So its been posted to death that everyone is somewhat sick of people saying go zerker stat or get out. Its mostly because with berserker stats you kill faster then any other stat combination, and if you die due to low defenses/healing power then groups simply kick you and say you didn’t dodge well enough or your a noob and get out of the party.

So in light of this I’ve come up with a solution to fixing the zerker meta we are all so familiar with, in order to grant some build diversity to the game. (your welcome arenanet) \(>.^)/

so in the classic meta setup, for a dungeon group you run 5 berserker stat group members (class combination is optional looking at u warriors/mes/guard’s). No other stat combination really has a place in this setup if your going for the fastest clear time, unless you implement a new mechanic.

Simply add a flag to each character which recognizes the primary armor/trinket/weapon stat combination each character has. If more pieces of gear come up as being Power/precision/ferocity, flag that character as a berserker character. (additionally flag any character as whatever there primary stat is, rabid, apothecary ect.)

If 3 (number of group is optional) or more characters are flagged in a group as a berserker character (or any stat combination if you prefer) Then the boss/mobs gain a debuff (we’ll call it enrage) where if you do too much damage to it too quickly, (or if just too many group members in the party have the same stats), the boss/mobs gain stacks of enrage thus making the mob/mobs hit harder and do more damage or inflict more conditions (ie make the fight harder or unbeatable).

If the group slows down dps then the stacks wane or dissipate, thus drawing the fight out, as the group will have to throttle there dps and balance between hurting the boss and gaining stacks of enrage. However as a berserker, this makes the fight much harder as most berserker groups rely on fast dps to kill before most boss mechanics really kick in.

The majority of dungeon groups who stack berserker members with this mechanic will either wipe, because they dps too fast and the boss will enraged from gaining too many stacks. Or they throttled there dps and thus will most likely be killed by the regular mechanics being drawn out, as berserker stats grant no defenses.

This will allow for more build diversity at the very least as groups will be forced to take members with other stats (perhapse 1 or 2 to avoid enrage stacks) or to simply not dps any boss/mob too quickly (whichever mechanic you prefer). Thus forcing groups to take a more balanced build/group to tackle the majority of the content.

as for world bosses this probably wont work, but for small group content it is a viable solution.

I’ve never been a fan of people who say go Zerker or GTFO, but nerfing the ability to bring multiple people running zerker into a party is the worst idea I have ever seen. You know why the meta is zerker? Because the only boss mechanics in the game are 1-hit KO’s, THAT is the reason people run zerker, because no other stat is worthwhile. The way to get the game a little further from the zerker meta?(You will never stop some groups from running the optimal damage spec for speed, because that’s what they want to do) The way you change the thought of zerker or GTFO is make defensive capabilities actually synergize better, that clerics ele should have much better support and defensive capabilities than that zerker ele(it doesn’t at this point in time).

Another thing that would need to happen is to give all bosses different mechanics, not ones that 1-hit KO, but ones that hit more often and for much less power. Make it so you can’t dodge roll all the damage the boss can do, but also make it so a carefully timed dodge roll can help you stay alive.

Honestly I’m starting to feel more hatred towards the small group saying that the zerker meta is killing the game, than the TINY portion of players that create groups that say Zerker or GTFO. Because I do ALOT of dungeons and I rarely see any of these groups pop up, but when I do, guess what I do? I DON’T JOIN THEM, I know that they aren’t the group for me and move along. That’s all it take, move along and they don’t effect you AT ALL.

TL:DR- Who cares that a tiny portion of the player population won’t allow anyone other than zerkers in their group, don’t join them unless you feel and same thing and move along.

Edit: This may be my largest post I have ever done on these forums, and you know why? Because the OP’s “They don’t let me play with them mommy!” is the most annoying viewpoint in the world, and in no way should anet ever cater to it. That doesn’t mean the zerker meta should change, but it does mean zerker itself shouldn’t be changed again.

Edit2: Eater of Peeps.9062 NOONE is keeping you from doing anything. I run dungeons on all 8 classes on a regular basis and you know what? NO ONE has ever told me to change classes/build EVER and I pug 100% of my dungeons. Run whatever you want, noone but the groups that specifically ask for it care.

As a necro who never gets invited to anything, this sounds like a great suggestion. I paid the same amount for this game as warriors, and this would help balance the game and allow me to play all content meaningfully like others. Also, really, who wants a world populated with nothing but wrs, guards and mesmers – this type of cookie cutter speed run is what eventually killed off gw and other games – cuz too many ppl were left out and there was nothing to play and players got resentful. This seems like a good solution and it forces players to add balance to their parties. Good suggestion!

Worst idea I’ve seen yet to “fix” the non-problem. The statement, “Everyone is somewhat sick of people saying go zerker stat or get out.” is ludicrous hyperbole. If everyone were sick of it, no one would be saying “berserker only.” And the post goes downhill from there.

To paraphrase, the idea offered by the OP amounts to, “I don’t think people using glass cannon gear should have faster clear times that those who don’t.” Name one MMO where the meta does not revolve around killing mobs as fast as possible given the constraints of the game? In a trinity game there would be three (optimal) DPS in a meta group.

Roles in GW2 are not as gear-based as in other MMO’s. Dedicated roles were left out of the game by design. One can use DPS gear and use traits, weapons and utilities to vary the role one plays in any given fight.

I’m with Indigo on this one. If you think Anet would ever implement a mechanic like this based solely on what gear people are wearing, you have no idea as to their stance on designing content.

You are complaining about people trying to force you into a certain team composition (zerk) and then your solution is to force a team composition (diverse). Your solution is not better. If people want to run full zerker groups, let them and stop joining them. Play with people who are of the same mindset as you. Clearly there’s plenty of you because this thread pops up from new people every 17 minutes.

Providing a solution by discriminating against the favorite class is not a solution at all!

This is the same as the lazy “nerf” mentality that has been plaguing Anet all this while.

You have to tweak the mechanics so as to increase the utility and importance of other builds, not to cripple the utility of one build.

Yeah not a fan of the beserker DPS is the only way to play mindeset, however punishing players who choose that gear or build is just not ok. Again dont join those groups or start your own lfg. That’s the only solution.

@eater of peeps. I also play a necro and have no issues finding groups for dungeons. You can still play the content meaningfully, as a power necro. Still does awesome dps, but necros can be quite tough. You dont have to conform to the meta. Play whatever build you want and start your own lfg. I play a condition necro and never have any issues with people in my any welcome pugs.

@both
Stop trying to ruin the game for others because they have a play style you dont like. Let beserkers be beserkers and dont run in Those groups. Period. There is plenty of diversity with builds, we dont need to super nerf one build because they are the loudest about ther builds and want to play with like minded people.

Wow, I’m amazed at how terribly short-sighted this idea is.

You seem to fail to realize that people actually use gear to supplement or compensate for low stats due to non-zerk builds, not just to further enhance zerk stats; your idea would basically cripple every person who wants to try to make a non-zerk build, but dip into zerk gear so they still have some DPS. It would also murder PUGs, because people will stick to guilds/friends list to ensure some random idiot doesn’t ignore LFG descriptions (“capped on zerk, need other builds” or something) and ruin a run.

Why cant you stop joining zerk only parties if youre not zerk/dont like zerk armor,weapons etc. Pls for the love of god make your own lfg ‘any welcome gear doesnt matter’ or even no zerk allowed and play with like minded ppl. Let us the zerk elitist w/e you call us play how we want. Ty ^^

Why in other mmos do you have to bring 3 dps, 1 tank and 1 healer? Why can’t I bring different team composition?

How about marking a harder version for dungeons?
Like you will still getting 50% of damage when dodge / you even can’t dodge.
Then buff the reward 3 times.

Benson.1297:

How about marking a harder version for dungeons?
Like you will still getting 50% of damage when dodge / you even can’t dodge.
Then buff the reward 3 times.

Harder?

I don’t think calling something faceroll make it harder.

Can I call BINGO on this thread too?

Seriously, all this crying about the “zerk meta” and how it needs to be “fixed” smacks of Godwin’s. All these threads trying to come up with a “solution” that solely penalises one aspect of the game is ridiculous.

Again, the only response to these sorts of threads can only be:

read the blasted LFG. If the group says zerk only or kick then joining on anything else but zerk is just plain selfish and rude. If a group is open to all then asks for zerk or gtfo, then they’re rude and you really wouldn’t want to game with them anyway.

The only real fix is a massive update to mob AI that makes mobs smarter and refusing to LOS into a stack to be cleaved down. That, or remove cleave altogether.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

So its been posted to death that everyone is somewhat sick of people saying go zerker stat or get out. Its mostly because with berserker stats you kill faster then any other stat combination, and if you die due to low defenses/healing power then groups simply kick you and say you didn’t dodge well enough or your a noob and get out of the party.

So in light of this I’ve come up with a solution to fixing the zerker meta we are all so familiar with, in order to grant some build diversity to the game. (your welcome arenanet) \(>.^)/

so in the classic meta setup, for a dungeon group you run 5 berserker stat group members (class combination is optional looking at u warriors/mes/guard’s). No other stat combination really has a place in this setup if your going for the fastest clear time, unless you implement a new mechanic.

Simply add a flag to each character which recognizes the primary armor/trinket/weapon stat combination each character has. If more pieces of gear come up as being Power/precision/ferocity, flag that character as a berserker character. (additionally flag any character as whatever there primary stat is, rabid, apothecary ect.)

If 3 (number of group is optional) or more characters are flagged in a group as a berserker character (or any stat combination if you prefer) Then the boss/mobs gain a debuff (we’ll call it enrage) where if you do too much damage to it too quickly, (or if just too many group members in the party have the same stats), the boss/mobs gain stacks of enrage thus making the mob/mobs hit harder and do more damage or inflict more conditions (ie make the fight harder or unbeatable).

If the group slows down dps then the stacks wane or dissipate, thus drawing the fight out, as the group will have to throttle there dps and balance between hurting the boss and gaining stacks of enrage. However as a berserker, this makes the fight much harder as most berserker groups rely on fast dps to kill before most boss mechanics really kick in.

The majority of dungeon groups who stack berserker members with this mechanic will either wipe, because they dps too fast and the boss will enraged from gaining too many stacks. Or they throttled there dps and thus will most likely be killed by the regular mechanics being drawn out, as berserker stats grant no defenses.

This will allow for more build diversity at the very least as groups will be forced to take members with other stats (perhapse 1 or 2 to avoid enrage stacks) or to simply not dps any boss/mob too quickly (whichever mechanic you prefer). Thus forcing groups to take a more balanced build/group to tackle the majority of the content.

as for world bosses this probably wont work, but for small group content it is a viable solution.

This is one of the worst suggestions I’ve ever read. Why?

“Thus forcing groups” – you don’t want to force players. Why would you want that?

The fact remains – even if you throttle the damage players will simply :

1)Give up the content that can’t be done fast enough.
2)Do the content with the fastest viable party composition that works.

And if you think this will save you from getting kicked because you died in a dungeon – I have news.

The longer fights last the higher the probability of making mistakes. So the higher the chances a player will dodge at the wrong time, get killed and kicked.

With your proposed changes only expert dodgers would be viable in a group since longer fights mean newbies get wiped and kicked.

Also have you considered why players go full zerker?
To finish content faster.

Why?

To GET REWARDS FASTER.

How do you think players would like rewards now taking more time to get. I personally would hate it. And a lot of others would too.

You can’t make AC or COF last 2x or 3x what they used to and expect players to be happy with it. We’ve done them HUNDREDS of times. We don’t need to spend any extra time there and don’t want to either.

Eater of Peeps.9062:

As a necro who never gets invited to anything, this sounds like a great suggestion. I paid the same amount for this game as warriors, and this would help balance the game and allow me to play all content meaningfully like others. Also, really, who wants a world populated with nothing but wrs, guards and mesmers – this type of cookie cutter speed run is what eventually killed off gw and other games – cuz too many ppl were left out and there was nothing to play and players got resentful. This seems like a good solution and it forces players to add balance to their parties. Good suggestion!

You’re being left out because you’re not bringing anything valuable to the table.

The equation is simple : Time vs Rewards. Speed clears are a part of the game because players want the most rewards with the least time spent.
If you can’t hold your own in an efficiency driven party look for people who want to play like you do.

Proposing the game be changed because you’re not invited in parties is absurd.
Also people who play zerker have paid more for the game collectively than you have. Just so we’re clear on the whole " I paid for the game, I am entitled to this" part of things.

Uh. Lol wow.

I thought I had seen it all. I really did. But here we are. I will just say, this won’t solve the problem. And that’s the truth.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

So its been posted to death that everyone is somewhat sick of people saying go zerker stat or get out.

Ironically, ppl also gettting sick to death about post of how to fix zerker or how to fix meta.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

So in light of this I’ve come up with a solution to fixing the zerker meta we are all so familiar with, in order to grant some build diversity to the game. (your welcome arenanet) \(>.^)/

This ‘’fix the zerker meta’’ always rub me the wrong way. Still, build diversity is alway snice, especially if you can add gear stats diversity that is relevant to the game. So i’ll give it a try and continue to read.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

so in the classic meta setup, for a dungeon group you run 5 berserker stat group members (class combination is optional looking at u warriors/mes/guard’s).

OHHH I see he’s a pug that don’t understant how the game work or think that Warrior is the best DPS of the game. So 2012. I think you should at least understand the meta and group composition before throwing a 1 year old compo that’s is not used that much today. Especially, if you gonna say that its the optimal class compo lol.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Simply add a flag to each character which recognizes the primary armor/trinket/weapon stat combination each character has. If more pieces of gear come up as being Power/precision/ferocity, flag that character as a berserker character. (additionally flag any character as whatever there primary stat is, rabid, apothecary ect.)

If 3 (number of group is optional) or more characters are flagged in a group as a berserker character (or any stat combination if you prefer) Then the boss/mobs gain a debuff (we’ll call it enrage) where if you do too much damage to it too quickly, (or if just too many group members in the party have the same stats), the boss/mobs gain stacks of enrage thus making the mob/mobs hit harder and do more damage or inflict more conditions (ie make the fight harder or unbeatable).

If the group slows down dps then the stacks wane or dissipate, thus drawing the fight out, as the group will have to throttle there dps and balance between hurting the boss and gaining stacks of enrage. However as a berserker, this makes the fight much harder as most berserker groups rely on fast dps to kill before most boss mechanics really kick in.

The majority of dungeon groups who stack berserker members with this mechanic will either wipe, because they dps too fast and the boss will enraged from gaining too many stacks. Or they throttled there dps and thus will most likely be killed by the regular mechanics being drawn out, as berserker stats grant no defenses.

This will allow for more build diversity at the very least as groups will be forced to take members with other stats (perhapse 1 or 2 to avoid enrage stacks) or to simply not dps any boss/mob too quickly (whichever mechanic you prefer). Thus forcing groups to take a more balanced build/group to tackle the majority of the content.
.

WOW, worst idea ever. And for zerker solutions, that not a light thing to say. That’s not ADDING deep to the game, that’s just artificially limiting the use of optimal solution.

While I am not a fan of the “zerker or gtfo” mentality either, I’m going to agree with other that this is not a solution either.

The issue that needs to be addressed with zerker is that there is no trade off in regards to support and cc. zerkers can fill those requirements sufficiently while still specced to be full glass. This is the underlying issue. To fix that, there simply needs to be that trade off, which would make having someone specced as a hybrid or as support more desirable. Because at that point, a full zerker group would not be able to “do it all” themselves.

The only aspect of the zerker meta that really irritates me is seeing people say ‘this build isn’t worth anyone’s time, go cookie cutter zerker or else you’re actively sabotaging your fellow players’ in build threads on forums. It’s difficult to even discuss alternative builds without hearing that mantra at least once. But frankly you’re going to get something like this for any game. There will always be an optimal build, and there will always be min/max players.

But this mentality is easily avoided, as people have already pointed out. Yeah, you’re going to have a tough time getting a pug group for say, Arah path 4, but for most dungeons and other pve content, it’s a simple enough matter to look for casual ‘everyone welcome’ groups on LFG.

OP, I think your heart is in the right place, but what you’ve offered is not a solution. And you do have other options at the moment. But sabotaging the min/max build isn’t the answer.

I like the Idea of having a damage triggered enrage when you do to much damage in a short time. We already have 100% lose conditions when you take too long, why not adding some pressure on the team when the damage/s reaches a certain peak? They would have to give more attention to the support and would still be faster at killing the boss. We just don’t have to restrict this mechanic to zerker teams but all teams.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Uh. Lol wow.

I thought I had seen it all. I really did. But here we are. I will just say, this won’t solve the problem. And that’s the truth.

You keep using that .gif everywhere nowadays :P

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Uh. Lol wow.

I thought I had seen it all. I really did. But here we are. I will just say, this won’t solve the problem. And that’s the truth.

You keep using that .gif everywhere nowadays :P

I keep needing it!

Not going to happen as long as Izzy Cartwright himself remains one of those “filthy zerker e1337ists.”

I don’t know why people still cry about this. The entire time I played I never once had an issue with not being able to do a dungeon because of not having the proper gear or proper class. Read the LFMs and if they are asking for something that you aren’t then do not try to join that party. How about instead you start your own kitten LFM and leave it open for all. As long as the dungeon is not CT(COE/COF) I had never waiting more than 5 min when posting my own lfm. When I wanted to run a dungeon I had never run before I would put an LFM up that said I was new to it and needed a guide or new and looking for others new and guess what it would fill fast. Ya know why it filled fast? Because the community actually has a bunch of good people that like to help each other out.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

While I am not a fan of the “zerker or gtfo” mentality either, I’m going to agree with other that this is not a solution either.

The issue that needs to be addressed with zerker is that there is no trade off in regards to support and cc. zerkers can fill those requirements sufficiently while still specced to be full glass. This is the underlying issue. To fix that, there simply needs to be that trade off, which would make having someone specced as a hybrid or as support more desirable. Because at that point, a full zerker group would not be able to “do it all” themselves.

“No tradeoff” is a misnomer. As an example, if a warrior takes Empower Allies, s/he is providing support. This requires 4 traits in Tactics. There is opportunity cost there. You have to sacrifice in Strength, Arms or Discipline. Now maybe the opportunity cost is not high enough for you (It is for me), but it is there.

Say that taking one or more other gear sets becomes required. Yes, that was gear sets — berserker is gear. Yes, that word was required. Why? Because that’s how human brains work. Players who prefer an optimal setup will use whatever is required. If that gear is not required, then it won’t be used.

Don’t believe me? Look at any trinity game. What is optimal group composition? One tank (resistance/evasion/etc. gear and build). One healer (healing gear and build). 3-4 DPS (DPS gear and approved build). Classes that have inferior DPS? Excluded. Builds that have inferior DPS? Excluded.

So, you change GW2 to require 2 or 3 “other” gear sets. What happens then? Meta groups adapt. Meanwhile, all of the “relaxed” groups that could complete content with “whatever” now also need that “required” gear. “AC P1 All Welcome” now becomes “AC P1, need 1 Build X, 1 build Y, 2 others.” Got your build X, but here comes another one wanting to join? Sorry, got one, /kick.

It makes me sad that people are ready to throw away GW2’s relaxed group composition so that they can have gear/build diversity that’s already available. Because that’s what these threads are asking for. So, what’s the payoff? The convenience of getting into any PuG group they want whenever they want with whatever build they want? It won’t happen anyway, no matter what ANet does.

Instead of addressing the real problems, let’s force people to take other gear because enrage. This would be laughable if it wasn’t the kind of lazy fix I’ve come to expect in this game.

I swear, I’m about to necro my old thread on the whole zerker issue so people could get it straight.

As for the OP’s suggestion:

#1: I run zerker in pugs. I shouldn’t be punished for my gear choice of other people happen to also make this choice.
#2: This suggestion would not stop coordinated groups, since they would still kill enemies before the buffs matter.
#3: This doesn’t make other gear choices better. It just discriminates against players for their gear choices.
#4: Zerker gear doesn’t cause anal retentive elitism. If you nerf the gear in some way, then you just make them discriminate because of other reasons.

I’m not a fan of the “berserker meta”. However restricting people’s choice to be zerker or not doesn’t seem like the best way to create more “build diversity”.

I think to encourage gear diversity, they need to build a even deeper link between the gear and the build.

For example, they can make more skill effects dependent on other stats of the gear. They can make certain skill do more damage with larger health pool. They can make some skill effect last longer with higher toughness.

Then we don’t need a nerf or anything on zerker gear. People will choose the best gear combo for their build.

This will definitely take a lot of effort from the dev team to balance things, though. But ultimately the game can be made more interesting.

If you want build diversity look to Pvp

Zerker is a natural consequence of the elimination of the trinity.

Traditionally you would spec to optimize your role — tanks would stack hp/def, healers would stack mana/healing stats, and dps would go for all out DPS.

Remove the tank, remove the healer, and all your left with is people speccing for all out DPS. Add in mechanics that eliminate the need to mitigate what damage you do take (dodge, personal heals, traits, utility) and you will find people that want to build optimally don’t need any defensive stats.

Scrambles.2604:

If you want build diversity look to Pvp

Zerker is a natural consequence of the elimination of the trinity.

Traditionally you would spec to optimize your role — tanks would stack hp/def, healers would stack mana/healing stats, and dps would go for all out DPS.

Remove the tank, remove the healer, and all your left with is people speccing for all out DPS. Add in mechanics that eliminate the need to mitigate what damage you do take (dodge, personal heals, traits, utility) and you will find people that want to build optimally don’t need any defensive stats.

Which I think is AWESOME and its the main reason why I think that GW2 is a great game.