Guild Wars 2

I wasn’t sure how to get this to you (ArenaNet) but I felt something public would be nice, so here goes.

When a player doesn’t like something about a game, or where they have noticed something they believe to be a problem for many players, then inevitably a forum like this will be used by those players to discuss and express their opinions on what’s bad with a game and how it should be fixed. Just like real world politics, pressure groups are an important part of making things change, though not all pressure groups have a point agreed on by a lot of people or convey it in an appropriate way.

Of course, the percentage of posters on here compared to the entire population of GW2 is likely small and while there will obviously be some people that dislike something but choose not to express it on here it IS logical to assume that the majority of posts here will be either neutral or negative in tone and I hope you (ArenaNet) know that the majority of players are enjoying the game and understandably won’t take 5-10 minutes to write a “I like this game!” post on here – why should they? They have a great game to play!

Well I’d like to write that post because I know that when I’ve run hobby groups (big and small) in the past then I learned it was very difficult to make everyone happy and that taking complaints on how I ran things from even just a few people was really painful and upsetting in one instance. Sure, I had to compromise in places because I wasn’t always right, but it was easy for me to get reassurance from other members and my committee that I was doing the right thing overall. Being a company then obviously it can be much harder to adequately keep in touch with your entire fan base and even harder still to get reassurance when forums like this are usually used for criticism (some constructive, some not). So here’s my message:

I personally love your game, I was a dedicated GW1 player (though I wouldn’t term myself a fanboy) and went into GW2 with high expectations given all the hype. Even if GW2 had been a disaster then I would still have played because in a games market where triple A titles are churned out using the same old mechanics then I was so impressed that you chose to not just remake the old game and try something different instead. There’re greedy companies out there that haven’t budged an inch to make a difference to the genre they make games for and it makes me pretty angry that their talent and money is going to waste – this only makes me all the more impressed with what you’ve made.

Having played almost all aspects of your game (WvW, PvE, sPvP though not tPvP) then I’ve had, and will continue to have, a fantastic time. I’ve never felt like I’m constantly being Mesmer portal ninja-ed in WvW, I’ve only been burst assassin-ed once or twice in sPvP, the builds that have thrashed me in sPvP I have understood and respected what they did and tried to find a way round it, the PvE has been wonderful and I eagerly await all your content updates, even if they take time to develop.

I understand the game isn’t perfect, there’re a few things I have thought of that I would like, but I’m having such a great time already then obviously none of those things are desperate enough in my mind to significantly impact my enjoyment. I believe I represent your “average Joe, normal gamer” and I’m having a great time.

My only regret (though not your fault at all) is that unfortunately my PC died of age and I can’t afford to replace it and the borrowed laptop on which I type this can’t run GW2 (I tried on min everything, it almost blew up :-O). So I play GW2 on my boyfriend’s super PC whenever I get the opportunity and I love every second of it. Sadly it means I’ll probably have to miss out on the event this weekend, but I’m ok with that because I’m sure it won’t be the last or the best of things to come :-)

I’m sure you know all this already, but what I want to say is, please keep going. Through all the complaints of stuff you haven’t done yet or stuff players want to see done because X, Y or Z is broken without it, I know you guys have the experience and dedication to continue making this an even better game in all aspects of it’s game play.

Please, please keep going.

Owen

how often did u see on a forum game 10.000 posts 100.000 visits thread of complaints?
And add that to post here u need to buy the game.

obvioulsy you are free to believe what you want….public VG press seems to have noticed “customers are angry” and not that few people are angry….

your sentiment is nice, but lord byron has a point

LordByron.8369:

how often did u see on a forum game 10.000 posts 100.000 visits thread of complaints?
And add that to post here u need to buy the game.

obvioulsy you are free to believe what you want….public VG press seems to have noticed “customers are angry” and not that few people are angry….

In my experience most posts on all MMO forums are complaints.

It just irks me that people complained constantly about a lack of endgame content and then when extra endgame items appear along with a new, complex endgame dungeon and another endgame area then all they do is howl that the game is pandering to traditional MMO concepts.

We should be respecting that they’ve even fought traditional MMO concepts for this long, their changes to the genre have been well executed and we should cut them a bit of slack I think.

Kana.6793:

LordByron.8369:

how often did u see on a forum game 10.000 posts 100.000 visits thread of complaints?
And add that to post here u need to buy the game.

obvioulsy you are free to believe what you want….public VG press seems to have noticed “customers are angry” and not that few people are angry….

In my experience most posts on all MMO forums are complaints.

you didn t change what i wrote….
SINGLE thread 10.000 posts 100.000 visits…

Do you have any fath in humanity?
it seems you think so many people have no life to come here and omplain for the sake of doing it.

The Sacred Voice.1623:

It just irks me that people complained constantly about a lack of endgame content and then when extra endgame items appear along with a new, complex endgame dungeon and another endgame area then all they do is howl that the game is pandering to traditional MMO concepts.

We should be respecting that they’ve even fought traditional MMO concepts for this long, their changes to the genre have been well executed and we should cut them a bit of slack I think.

Do you think it is the same people complaining?

They said they are adding the ascended items due to player feedback. The people who don’t agree with the change and think it goes against the game that Arena.net marketed are now giving their feedback.

The Sacred Voice.1623:

It just irks me that people complained constantly about a lack of endgame content and then when extra endgame items appear along with a new, complex endgame dungeon and another endgame area then all they do is howl that the game is pandering to traditional MMO concepts.

Ditto. I’m starting to wonder how many sock puppets are starting these threads, you know, the ones that are drowning out all the others. On the ranger sf, some poor guy asked people to check out his build, only to be immediately pounced upon by someone telling him not to bother…..and if that isn’t a sad indictment of the current state of MMO forum communities I’m not sure what is.

So yeah, it’s probably paranoia on my part to think of the kinds of people who infest forums with negativity having an agenda, but regardless, I’m getting sick to my stomach with every game getting kicked to death by it’s forum community. It’s as dull as a rainy day in Milton Keynes.

The Sacred Voice.1623:

It just irks me that people complained constantly about a lack of endgame content and then when extra endgame items appear along with a new, complex endgame dungeon and another endgame area then all they do is howl that the game is pandering to traditional MMO concepts.

Different people.

Take away these “endgame items” (and the promise to crank out more every few months) and all of the complaints would go away. Nobody’s actually upset by the idea of playing the Fractals, just the way its rewards trample over the entire rest of the game.

lagrangeify.5641:

sock puppets

What “sock puppets”?

You do realize that every forum account on here costs $60, right?

LordByron.8369:

you didn t change what i wrote….
SINGLE thread 10.000 posts 100.000 visits…

JFYI that is/was a graveyard-thread where the mods merged all discussions in, both pro and against, and not a single thread.

krs.7520:

LordByron.8369:

you didn t change what i wrote….
SINGLE thread 10.000 posts 100.000 visits…

JFYI that is/was a graveyard-thread where the mods merged all discussions in, both pro and against, and not a single thread.

the point is it is all related to the patch and peoples discontent with it. the fact alone that they had to make a garbage thread has the same effect as having one megathread

ASP.8093:

lagrangeify.5641:

sock puppets

What “sock puppets”?

You do realize that every forum account on here costs $60, right?

Yeah I do, and I retract the petty insult, for that’s what it was, said in frustration.

Though if you know how these things work (I hang out at plenty of subscriber political news sites whos forums are often infested with them) then you’ll know that paying a one off fee is no impediment to people who, for whatever reason, are intent on causing disruption.

But yeah, I take it back in this case, it was uncalled for.

LordByron.8369:

Kana.6793:

In my experience most posts on all MMO forums are complaints.

you didn t change what i wrote….
SINGLE thread 10.000 posts 100.000 visits…

Do you have any fath in humanity?
it seems you think so many people have no life to come here and omplain for the sake of doing it.

That’s just under 10,000 posts in a merged thread. It’s not a count of unique posters, there are a lot of posts in there by the same people. Not everyone in there is against Ascended gear either.

Anytime I say something along the lines of “did you see X on the forums?” to friends or guildies the reply is something like “lol no, I don’t look at the forums. Too much Q.Q”. They said it on WoW. They said it on SWTOR. They say it on GW2.

MMO forums are for complaining. If you listen to the forums all classes are both underpowered and OP. The game is impossibly easy and impossibly difficult. The devs only care about casuals and the devs only care about hardcores. It’s exactly the same on all the forums. No matter what Anet do or do not do there will always be a sea of complaints about every single aspect of the game.

So no, after years of reading basically the same thing, I don’t take forum complaints too seriously.

cmon..

it is a nice game.

agreed the marketing was a bit of a lie.

but it still a nice game. people will complain about “everything”.

before gear treadmill, people complained it needed one, after they complain it doesnt. same goes for every patch they make; if its not a buff “its a worthless pc of kitten shiit”.

people need to take their chill pill.
it is a great game, and not a “scam” to own your life or make you go bald…

its a GAME, among other GAME. so lets relax.
the false marketing is gonna hurt them, and its allright.
but dont make it as if its the end of the world.

The Sacred Voice.1623:

It just irks me that people complained constantly about a lack of endgame content and then when extra endgame items appear along with a new, complex endgame dungeon and another endgame area then all they do is howl that the game is pandering to traditional MMO concepts.

We should be respecting that they’ve even fought traditional MMO concepts for this long, their changes to the genre have been well executed and we should cut them a bit of slack I think.

Apparently, considering the game is only 3 months old, they fought the concept for 1 or 2 months. Great show of fortitude there.

Maybe you’re right, maybe people like me who are staunch supporters of their manifesto and vehemently against the gear treadmill should have been more vocal against the cries to change this game into something it was not.

But make no mistake, people who cry for gear profession are not the ones who are screaming now. To see Anet cave in so quickly to their cries is disheartening and I’ve lost all respect for them. Seriously, 3 frickin months.

Kana.6793:

LordByron.8369:

Kana.6793:

In my experience most posts on all MMO forums are complaints.

you didn t change what i wrote….
SINGLE thread 10.000 posts 100.000 visits…

Do you have any fath in humanity?
it seems you think so many people have no life to come here and omplain for the sake of doing it.

That’s just under 10,000 posts in a merged thread. It’s not a count of unique posters, there are a lot of posts in there by the same people. Not everyone in there is against Ascended gear either.

Anytime I say something along the lines of “did you see X on the forums?” to friends or guildies the reply is something like “lol no, I don’t look at the forums. Too much Q.Q”. They said it on WoW. They said it on SWTOR. They say it on GW2.

MMO forums are for complaining. If you listen to the forums all classes are both underpowered and OP. The game is impossibly easy and impossibly difficult. The devs only care about casuals and the devs only care about hardcores. It’s exactly the same on all the forums. No matter what Anet do or do not do there will always be a sea of complaints about every single aspect of the game.

So no, after years of reading basically the same thing, I don’t take forum complaints too seriously.

yup, i think the same as you.
gamers really are an angry bunch…
as if because a b2p game isnt “perfect” their world is over…
(btw i still agree that the false hype and marketing from anet was wrong, and probably their main major mistake).

OP has an opinion that I happen to feel the same way about.

Many may not agree with this opinion, but please do not dismiss it or try to argue it away. This is not an attack thread. The OP’s purpose was not to incite a riot or promote controversy.

I wish the OP the best in acquiring an adequate computer to enjoy the game they love.

ASP.8093:

The Sacred Voice.1623:

It just irks me that people complained constantly about a lack of endgame content and then when extra endgame items appear along with a new, complex endgame dungeon and another endgame area then all they do is howl that the game is pandering to traditional MMO concepts.

Different people.

Take away these “endgame items” (and the promise to crank out more every few months) and all of the complaints would go away. Nobody’s actually upset by the idea of playing the Fractals, just the way its rewards trample over the entire rest of the game.

This I think is a major misunderstanding about the patch. Ofcourse the dungeon is going to reward you with better items the higher level you do, as stated at different locations. But the ascended items we do not fully understand in how many ways they can be obtained. For now they are adding a lot of crafting recipes in order for us to craft some and they even said ascended items would be added to WvW in the future. You can still discuss the power creep, however I think that having to do the dungeon in order to get ascended items is a wrong picture of how things will be and takes away the sting from most of the discussions.

So to be honest I am with the OP. I also had questions about the new dungeon (how the level you would do was going to be determined), but it turns out that for the friends I play with it won’t be a problem as the highest level available will be the one of the person with the lowest level obtained so everyone can play together. Also you can pick a level lower for the dungeon than your current progress. Ofcourse elitist PUG players will ask for a certain level, but I also have already seen requests to link gear. They will remain the same in their attitude so nothing new there.

Then there is only a power creep to be discussed for which you are not dependant on the new dungeon.

the little minor differences on stats wont be a huge factor compaired to PLAYER SKILL.

but then again, somebody getting owned will complain its because he didnt grind enough, and people will believe him, and everything will flare up…

whatever, GW2 rocks. and i have 200h so far, and i didnt grind once.

@ OP
I enjoyed reading your post, it was nicely written and a nice point. However, I can’t help but get the feeling that you would be equally happy to play if the changes in the patch hadn’t been introduced.
As such, your post is still good, but comes at a really bad time, since you will most likely fall into the “I love the patch and disagree with the concerns” group of people, in the fact that you support the people who make the changes. If you like Anet and want them to continue working thats all good, but right now (and likely for some time to come) “yay sayers” and “nay sayers” are the dominant species, and you can’t place yourself in the middle (one group or both will eat you up).
As a response to your thread though;
I’m happy that you are happy.
I’m unhappy that I’m unhappy, and I’m slightly unhappy that you aren’t unhappy along with me.

Op, I could link you to at least 3 well known game forums where the gist of the conversation is just filled with the same type of bullkitten posted here.

The negativity is nothing new. Gamers just tend to be whinier than almost any other type of consumer.

Don’t take it to heart, Owen. There are plenty of people who like the game just fine…we just don’t feel the need to…. share….every single kitten day about how happy we are.

phanmc.6759:

Maybe you’re right, maybe people like me who are staunch supporters of their manifesto and vehemently against the gear treadmill should have been more vocal against the cries to change this game into something it was not.

Maybe all the people up in arms about the sudden introduction of a “gear treadmill” are seeing something that I’m really not.

For me, knowing that I can do any non-Fractals dungeon on any mode in un-upgraded blues is a source of comfort, because that means that I can do…well, pretty much anything I need to do in normal PvE without any significant amount of gear. (It’s been done, if you can’t l2p, etc etc.)
Similarly, it’s also a source of comfort to know that people can run around with legendaries, but they’ll still die just as quickly to an organized force and/or siege equipment in WvW. Honestly, your personal items don’t really matter so much when you’re using siege; I haven’t seen any difference when I was manning the ram at level 30 as compared to manning the ram at 80. Did just shy of 9k a hit in all cases, with a swing of maybe a couple hundred hp a hit. On a target with likely 200k+ hp, a couple hundred is pretty negligible.
Thirdly, since Agony is only going to be present in the Fractals dungeon and is ALSO only going to be present in the Fractals dungeon when you pass a certain point in the dungeon, I’m pretty unconcerned. The way I see it, if you can get the point in the dungeon where you need Agony resistance, you’ll have had many opportunities to get it before then. That’s how everything (read: crafting, soloing, questing, doing dungeons, etc) has been up until this point, and I don’t see any reason why it’ll be different now.

I do think, at some level, it’d be a bit of a “safer” bet if Ascended gear was only usable in the Fractals dungeon, as in the case of your Town Clothing set and just auto-swapped to that armor when you entered; but even if you can run around in Ascended gear in WvW, who really cares? Anything you can get, I can get too.

It’s not legendary-quality stuff, it’s just “stuff that’s slightly better than what you have now”.

I repeat:
Not having ascended gear isn’t going to magically make you non-viable in dungeons, WvW, or soloing things. I pretty much solo’d my way to 80 wearing blues that were generally 20-30 levels below my actual level, and I had no issues whatsoever.

@Ahm:
I’m sorry that you’re unhappy, but I’m unhappy that you’re unhappy because you’re somehow unable to just be satisfied with what’s already been presented to you.
I neither love nor hate the patch; I just don’t see what all the hubbub is about.

For what it’s worth I’m also enjoying GW2 more than any other MMO I’ve played. The OP is completely correct in thinking that only a small fraction of the actual playerbase posts on forums. Most people just play the game, only the dedicated (either fans or haters) are what you see on forums.

it seems you think so many people have no life to come here and omplain for the sake of doing it.

People complaining on the Internet just for the sake of doing it? Impossible!

The Internet is a shining heaven where all opinions posted on it are mature, well-thought out and always considerate of the consequences.

Seriously, how many gaming forums have you been on? There are always trolls who have nothing better to do than post flame threads.

Yep. I think Anet has done a good job thus far but needs some work on communication/bug fixing.

Auvic.5679:

I repeat:
Not having ascended gear isn’t going to magically make you non-viable in dungeons, WvW, or soloing things. I pretty much solo’d my way to 80 wearing blues that were generally 20-30 levels below my actual level, and I had no issues whatsoever.

You’re looking at the immediate future and not considering the potential long term ramifications.

Why did they add the item progression in the first place? To appease those that want vertical progression. They will have to continue expanding vertically to appease that audience. So their will be a significant gap between those that take advantage of the vertical progression and those that do not.

In one scenario where the ascended gear stats have no impact to anything outside of dungeons, every new dungeon will have to be like Fractals where the basic dungeon content is doable for everyone and the content is repeated with increased difficulty for those that want the challenge. I don’t think this will satisfy the vertical progression crowd for long.

In another scenario, the ascended gear will impact you outside of dungeons, in Wv3 and dynamic events. The stats may not be that huge right now (though that is looking debatable) but over time as the vertical progression increases, those with the progression will have a significant advantage. Considering that it will take some sort of grinding to get the ascended gear, it will be no easy task to overcome that advantage gap.

Other scenarios will fall in between the 2 extremes but you have to consider the growth further down the road.

Avatar.1923:

the little minor differences on stats wont be a huge factor compaired to PLAYER SKILL.

I spend a good deal of time in WvW clusterbombing things. It’s one of the main ways thieves participate in sieges and “zergs.” The projectile is super-slow at long range, so your main goal is to force people away from a static position (e.g. some siege equipment) or to punish opponents’ mistakes. Player skills figures into placing the shots, but you also need massive damage to make them actually do something — if I was only hitting soft targets for 3k, it’d be pretty trivial for most players to pull back and heal up after they’ve overextended, or to stand in the blast and chase me away with focused fire when I’m trying to push them back from their wall. The effectiveness of this whole strategy is directly correlated to gear quality. If I can stack another 15-20% crit damage with jewelry (extrapolate from rings to amulet + earrings), that’s like being 10% more useful to my team. Add that up over several players and it’s a solid advantage.

ASP.8093:

Avatar.1923:

the little minor differences on stats wont be a huge factor compaired to PLAYER SKILL.

I spend a good deal of time in WvW clusterbombing things. It’s one of the main ways thieves participate in sieges and “zergs.” The projectile is super-slow at long range, so your main goal is to force people away from a static position (e.g. some siege equipment) or to punish opponents’ mistakes. Player skills figures into placing the shots, but you also need massive damage to make them actually do something — if I was only hitting soft targets for 3k, it’d be pretty trivial for most players to pull back and heal up after they’ve overextended, or to stand in the blast and chase me away with focused fire when I’m trying to push them back from their wall. The effectiveness of this whole strategy is directly correlated to gear quality. If I can stack another 15-20% crit damage with jewelry (extrapolate from rings to amulet + earrings), that’s like being 10% more useful to my team. Add that up over several players and it’s a solid advantage.

For all you know there’s going to be a karma vendor in WvW selling Ascended gear. People are freaking out before they even know how it works.

Kana.6793:

For all you know there’s going to be a karma vendor in WvW selling Ascended gear. People are freaking out before they even know how it works.

Ascended gear are meant to be a progression level between exotics and legendaries, they will not be easy to attain without grinding.

We didn’t freak out when people cried for vertical progression and looked what happened.

Kana.6793:

For all you know there’s going to be a karma vendor in WvW selling Ascended gear. People are freaking out before they even know how it works.

Have you seen the WvW exotic prices?

phanmc.6759:

Kana.6793:

For all you know there’s going to be a karma vendor in WvW selling Ascended gear. People are freaking out before they even know how it works.

Ascended gear are meant to be a progression level between exotics and legendaries, they will not be easy to attain without grinding.

We didn’t freak out when people cried for vertical progression and looked what happened.

If they are available for karma – you gain karma constantly by playing WvW so if your normal play consists of primarily WvW then it cannot be considered grinding since it’s exactly what you would have been doing anyway.

Just because you voice dissent doesn’t mean you don’t love the game. I love this game, and have voiced dissent BECAUSE of my love for the game.