Guild Wars 2

I’m real kitten jaded right now.

You are telling me, that one of the GW1 open story points, is going to be resolved in the KITTEN RAID!!

If Lazarus the Dire is the final boss of the last raid wing, I am going to lose my kitten.

GW2 fans who played their kitten hearts out of GW1, have been begging for GW1 lore to be pumped into the Living Story, and then you go and put the first bit of GW1 related story into content that only 5% of your player base is playing?

Thanks for the big middle finger Anet!

Thanks for ruining it for me.

I have no reason to play it now.

- Cinematic in question

“Lazarus the Dire was one of the Mursaat present at the Rise of the White Mantle. He assisted Saul D’Alessio in the defense of Kryta against the Charr invasion.

Lazarus is one of the few survivors of the Flameseeker Prophecies. When the Titans emerged from the Foundry of Failed Creations, he split himself up into several aspects and imbued them within members of the broken White Mantle, claiming them to be a blessing. The plan was to wait until the threat of Abaddon and the Titans had passed, and then free each aspect one by one until Lazarus had regained his full power. Unfortunately, he found that freeing each aspect would kill its host.

Lazarus cared little for this collateral damage, but the host of the final aspect, former Justiciar Naveed, cared quite a bit. Having long since realised that Lazarus’ gift was no blessing, he fled to the Tarnished Coast, where he sought the help of the talented asura Glayvin. Together, they were able to severely damage the aspect, but not remove it. When Lazarus eventually came to claim the corrupted aspect, he felt his power turn on him. He fled to go into recovery, but not before vowing vengeance against “countless generations”.

DGraves.3720:

Thanks for ruining it for me.

I have no reason to play it now.

uh, obvious spoiler tag in the title man

The living story pretty much revolves around the dragons. The open story of what happened with the mursaat is more in keeping with the living world, which the raids are a part of. It does make sense to have the raids used as a side story.

If the didnt use existing gw1 lore, then players would complain loudly that it was a wasted opportunity to use the white mantle and the mursaat.

If Lazarus is the final boss as been predicted since the first wing, then he he would be an excellent choice for a major raid boss.

Sadly, I am not good enough to get that far or be accepted into a team, so whether I will get to see the whole thing is unlikely, but in terms of mechanics, lore and drawing ppls attention in, this feels like a good thing to me to strengthen the game.

Jordo.5913:

DGraves.3720:

Thanks for ruining it for me.

I have no reason to play it now.

uh, obvious spoiler tag in the title man

When someone says “spoilers” that’s like saying “read me, I wants to post this in the wrong forum (it belongs in story discussion or raids, whichever), but you will submit to my will and ruin this for yourself!”

Spoiler: I fell for your trap.

:(

I got upset the moment I saw the new raid weapons and mini, because they imply the same thing. Then I realized, I don’t care. Anything in the raids is made for raiders. The people that will get to see the raids all the way through to the end and get all the plot details are in the minority. If they want to make a plot important, raids is the WRONG way to do it.

For the majority of players, those events basically never happen. They can be and should be ignored. And if they think this is a good way to lead into LS3, ANet needs to rethink their plans because there’s no way people are going to sit around and listen to a bunch of raiders brag about their playing just to gather scraps of plot. And if people wanted to just read a story, they wouldn’t be playing an interactive video game.

The game is like an anime, and the raids are those movies that take place at specific points in the story, but don’t actually fit into the story. Fans of DBZ or Bleach will know what I mean.

Anet messed up big time on this. Did they think that an open GW1 story was best resolved in a raid? only a very small percentage of their player based would get to play it. Over on reddit, the community is up-in-arms about it and the tone is not as civilized as the comments on here. But the general feel is WTF Anet?

It really makes you think about what is going on at Anet right now? Can they really be this out of touch with their core audience?

I, for one, appreciate the spoiler because I likely won’t ever get around to doing the raid. But I won’t pass full judgement on the ending until I see/read the full story (including the final wing’s story). For now, though, I will say that I am a little sad that this reveal was part of the raid story instead of the main story.

It could still be that the Anet is just teasing us. Maybe this is just an opening for the story that will begin in living story 3 or 4.

This is really is disappointing and disheartening. Hopefully, they are paying attention to posts like this one – and those on reddit – and realize the error before it continues too much further.

Renkku.7451:

It could still be that the Anet is just teasing us. Maybe this is just an opening for the story that will begin in living story 3 or 4.

The bigger issue is that this is a significant reveal that only a small percentage of players will get to be a part of – outside of a youtube video. You can’t unring that bell.

Renkku.7451:

It could still be that the Anet is just teasing us. Maybe this is just an opening for the story that will begin in living story 3 or 4.

I don’t think so. I think the GW2 story and the dragons is separate in a lot of ways from the open ends left from GW1. I think they wanted to give the raid a good story, while at the same time closing up some loose ends from GW1. The are killing two birds with one stone. I imagine without this story being told in the raid, it never would have been told. Which would you prefer?

I just sincerely doubt they are using the raid to further the main GW2 story, though I could be wrong. That could explain the timing of LW3 coming after the third wing.

Well that’s just grand. My one big disappointment about GW2 was its severely lacking continuity going forward from the first game, instead saddling us with rubbish dragons, ugly steampunk nonsense and Trahearne.

And then they put this in the raid I’ll never be playing.

I think the best part about this is that it’s not temporary content. However I have to agree with the notion that not everyone will see any of this. At least with dungeon or even fractal content that was do-able to some scope. Though I have this strange feeling that some of these “stories,” that go into these new raids were planned out long ago. Which means some of it was suppose to go into dungeons content. Since fractals lore seems to cover mainly past events.

I remember a long time ago when it was confirmed that even before GW2 came out that they had “cool plans” for the Mursaat. It was until the Queen’s Jubilee first came out that we got a real response on why they were not there. By former dungeon lead Robert Hrouda.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I originally had the Mursaat/White Mantle as one of the factions. They’re certainly a stronger pick than something like bandits or pirates, but there’s a lot of factors that go into these sorts of things. Creating a new army never before seen is pretty complex and takes a lot of time and iteration. Not only is there a large design cost for it, but art has to create a brand new environment, new armor, new character models, new weapons, and those are not simple tasks either. I played a ton of GW1, so I know their significance. I also knew how much time I had to do this, what my asset request bank was, and knew that I couldn’t do the Mursaat justice… especially with such a small area.
If I’m gonna do Mursaat and White Mantle, I (as a hardcore GW1 player) would want it to be epic and grand. We haven’t ..forgotten..about them, I just have higher expectations for them than what I was capable of putting out in this release.
…and yes I’m proud of that reference.

Once HoT was in development they had their template to create the Mursaat again (via the Exalted model). However by this time they knew where they were going to have to put this story. It could not be featured in the main HoT story, because so many plot threads got severed even from season 2. Just to focus on a rushed story about our protagonist on a rescue mission.

Which brings us to their new “challenging group content.” So of course they bumped this content into the raid. Which even according to one lore enthusiast Wooden Potatoes: “has done a better job at delivering a story then previous content.” Including the main HoT narrative (so far). So I can understand why people are a bit upset about this.

EDIT: Also I have this feeling that the narative about the Wizard’s Tower at Garenhoff might get the same raid treatment.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Well that’s just grand. My one big disappointment about GW2 was its severely lacking continuity going forward from the first game, instead saddling us with rubbish dragons, ugly steampunk nonsense and Trahearne.

And then they put this in the raid I’ll never be playing.

yup, this sums up my feelings as well

it feels like we’ll never get back to Cantha or Elona and find out what happened with the New Emperor and Palawa Joko….oh just kidding, that will probably be put in a raid now

meanwhile, we get to kitten around with dragons

Ok – as someone who loved GW1 and played the heck out of it I can honestly say I’m super excited about this.
On the other hand – I get what you guys are saying too – Raids are not accessible to everyone and so people are upset that the White Mantle story is continued in this very restrictive and exclusive area of the game.

That being said – I feel the problem isn’t that we’re getting this GW1 story continuation through Raids – but that overall we’ve gotten very little GW1 stories continued.

The only good parts of this game’s story that got me excited were all tied to GW1:

-The possibility of the Abbadon fractal.
-Rytlock in the Mists and his whole “cleansing Ascalon arc”.

GW2’s living story – its whole “dragons” idea is boring to me – and honestly can’t wait to move past it.

What if they created a completely original story with new characters and villains (which as far as I know everyone assumed they had until now)?

Wouldn’t people who don’t get to play the raid be missing out on that?

but in one of the guild chats both lead writers( boby and leah i think) said raids will have side and non important story and they even said they know there are many people who love story and lore but they are not raider., few months after it turns out raid contains one of the major story lines from gw1, were they lying?!

They had said that raids wouldn’t contain any story that would affect the “main story” of GW2, which I’m now guessing means the Elder Dragon arc. I guess old lore is okay to put into raids, when almost every GW1 player turned GW2 player has been waiting 10+ years for some of these story arcs to be resolved.

Most people thought you were just going into the raid to save a group of stragglers who got pinned in by some leftover Mordrem Monsters, and most people were okay with that.

However, the white mantle and the mursaat are very much a part of GW’s OVERALL main story.

And now, I have to worry about, are they going to put Livia’s story arc in a raid? Is palawa joko’s story going to be put in a raid? Is what happened to the Tengu fleeing Cantha going to be put into a raid? Is the New Emperor in Cantha story arc also going to be put into a raid? Am I stuck only learning stuff about elder dragons, while raiders will get to experience stuff that I’ve been waiting 10 years to be resolved, while I read about it on a wikipedia page or watch it through a WoodenPotatoes video?

Danikat.8537:

What if they created a completely original story with new characters and villains (which as far as I know everyone assumed they had until now)?

Wouldn’t people who don’t get to play the raid be missing out on that?

They would have been better off using the “broken reality” theme from fractals – meaning that the story for that content really doesn’t matter. Most raiders dont care about story anyway, in my experience.

The biggest issue, imo, is that, following HOT, EVERYTHING new has been about raiding, and looks to be until at least July (probably later). Raiding is looking to be the sole release focus (regardless of the team size) for almost 11 months of the game. It is a disheartening direction many of us abhor for the game. Now the story is part of that focus as well?

It seems like the devs have really lost touch and are now taking the same easy path every other AAA MMO is taking (making GW2 potentially just another meh me-too MMO, imo).

NOTE: I say these things as someone who is actively raiding in the new content. Raiding has a place – I (and many others) are just unhappy with how much it is apparently taking from the rest of the game (and it doesn’t matter how many people are on the rading dev team – it is the current perception based on what is being released).

Danikat.8537:

What if they created a completely original story with new characters and villains (which as far as I know everyone assumed they had until now)?

Wouldn’t people who don’t get to play the raid be missing out on that?

There are thousands upon thousands of stories in the world that I’ve never heard about. I don’t feel like I’m missing out on any of them. I never lay awake in bed at night wondering how on earth I’m ever going to read every book ever written.

Just because an arbitrary story takes place in a game I happen to play, it doesn’t suddenly become something I’d feel I’m missing out on. There’s plenty of storytelling in GW2 that I happily ignore. Dungeon paths, for example. I’ve only ever done 2 or 3. Couldn’t give a kitten about the rest.

It’s different when a story is a sequel or a continuation of another story you’re invested in.

saye.9304:

but in one of the guild chats both lead writers( boby and leah i think) said raids will have side and non important story and they even said they know there are many people who love story and lore but they are not raider., few months after it turns out raid contains one of the major story lines from gw1, were they lying?!

this is the only thing that is giving me hope that they aren’t going to screw us lore nerds

the white mantle and mursaat are very much IMPORTANT story arcs, and I’m hoping this raid is just going to introduce Lazarus the Dire and he will be put into LWS3, which is why LWS3 has to come out AFTER raid wing 3.

Maybe Lazarus the Dire is Scarlet 2.0 and is going to bring about the next Elder Dragon in LWS3.

The way it’s looking right now though, Lazarus is going to be the Final Boss of the raid.

If you don’t raid or PvP now as a veteran, you should quit GW2 pretty much, because between this and E-Sports focus (I don’t care about it, the balance and MM system are awful), I can tell it’s tearing across the community/game.

In my personal opinion, this should have been in dungeons, challenging dungeons and not raids, but too bad they got rid of these eh? I’m a raider btw, and the thing is that the exclusion came from other players, you just need ascended trinkets and weapons to raid, the armor is terrible and only necessary for fractals…

saye.9304:

but in one of the guild chats both lead writers( boby and leah i think) said raids will have side and non important story and they even said they know there are many people who love story and lore but they are not raider., few months after it turns out raid contains one of the major story lines from gw1, were they lying?!

The problem is the over exaggeration/hype some of these employees directly talk about never pan out in that way. A clear example of is when the writers were hyping up story elements that never really mattered much in post-HoT. One of those being that the Nightmare Court narrative would highly significant to the HoT narrative. Furthermore this does not just happen with story elements from the game, but other significant once-upcoming game mechanics. So taking the word from a developer at any point and time can easily be skewed in the future.

I can’t be the only one out there who is very tired about people complaining that because it is in the raid, it is “not accessible” to most players.

Everyone has access to the raid. Those who don’t raid are making an active choice not to do so. Whether or not people are in a raiding guild, or if they have the time to raid, that is still a choice that they make. If it takes 10+ hours a week for your group to be able to kill a boss, and you don’t have that time available, that is still a choice.

I’m not saying that everyone has the ability to “shift” their schedule to be able to make the time commitment, but that is not the fault of ANET.

I like to think of them putting this story in the game as a positive. Let’s be honest, if it wasn’t in the raid, it wouldn’t be in the game at all. The small number of raid developers have been doing a far better job than other areas of development, IMO.

Randulf.7614:

The living story pretty much revolves around the dragons. The open story of what happened with the mursaat is more in keeping with the living world, which the raids are a part of. It does make sense to have the raids used as a side story.

What are you talking about? A side story? The White Mantle played a big role in my personal story. They’ve been a big part of the primary narrative ever since this game launched back in 2012. They killed my parents. They tried to kill me. They’re my character’s motivation to pick up the sword (well, staff) and go out to better the world.

And now that the side story of putting down some rubbish dragons is finished, they’re putting the continuation of what matters most, my character’s personal story in a raid? What the hell man!

Manasa Devi.7958:

Randulf.7614:

The living story pretty much revolves around the dragons. The open story of what happened with the mursaat is more in keeping with the living world, which the raids are a part of. It does make sense to have the raids used as a side story.

What are you talking about? A side story? The White Mantle played a big role in my personal story. They’ve been a big part of the primary narrative ever since this game launched back in 2012. They killed my parents. They tried to kill me. They’re my character’s motivation to pick up the sword (well, staff) and go out to better the world.

And now that the side story of putting down some rubbish dragons is finished, they’re putting the continuation of what matters most, my character’s personal story in a raid? What the hell man!

But it isn’t the story of THIS game. Unless they are heading there. This game has taken a different path. They have chosen to use raids to tie up some loose ends perhaps.

Though I would agree if they use the raid story to introduce LW3, that is a pretty bs move without implementing a story mode.

It is the story of this game. My very first character fell victim to a cowardly attack by the White Mantle. Unfortunately, he got sidetracked by dragons, of all things, and railroaded into fighting them like some spineless patsy who couldn’t stand up for himself and tell those useless order representatives that his own vicissitudes were much important.

Manasa Devi.7958:

It is the story of this game. My very first character fell victim to a cowardly attack by the White Mantle. Unfortunately, he got sidetracked by dragons, of all things, and railroaded into fighting them like some spineless patsy who couldn’t stand up for himself and tell those useless order representatives that his own vicissitudes were much important.

That’s not the story of the world though, it’s the story of your character. Does it matter? Yes, it should, but it isn’t the primary focus. The dragons pose (at least they’re supposed to) an immediate threat to the world and everyone in it. The white mantle tried to kill your character and killed your character’s parents. Big deal, every other creature in the game tries to kill you, from toxic spiders to giants to drunken skritt.

Some games can do personal vendettas instead of saving the world. Usually it involves the world’s collapse being beyond the character’s control. This isn’t one of those games though, this is one of the type where “saving the world” comes first.

ehhhhhhhhhhh dont know how to react to this? I dont raid, and still patiently waiting on the WoodenPotatoes video on this wing story, though I can see why most people are dissapointed

Jordo.5913:

and then you go and put the first bit of GW1 related story into content that only 5% of your player base is playing?

Niiiice you took the entire active population and figured this out!!!??

I don’t know… if you refuse to raid then you could… youtube it?

King Cephalopod.7942:

Manasa Devi.7958:

It is the story of this game. My very first character fell victim to a cowardly attack by the White Mantle. Unfortunately, he got sidetracked by dragons, of all things, and railroaded into fighting them like some spineless patsy who couldn’t stand up for himself and tell those useless order representatives that his own vicissitudes were much important.

That’s not the story of the world though, it’s the story of your character. Does it matter? Yes, it should, but it isn’t the primary focus. The dragons pose (at least they’re supposed to) an immediate threat to the world and everyone in it. The white mantle tried to kill your character and killed your character’s parents. Big deal, every other creature in the game tries to kill you, from toxic spiders to giants to drunken skritt.

Some games can do personal vendettas instead of saving the world. Usually it involves the world’s collapse being beyond the character’s control. This isn’t one of those games though, this is one of the type where “saving the world” comes first.

So all of this is a lie? False advertising?

Manasa Devi.7958:

So all of this is a lie? False advertising?

You should see the video on combat, where they suggest a thief “tanking” using evades (not talking about raids where there’s controllable aggro).

It’s not a lie, but it’s a little off. The part about your parents as a human? That’s part of character building based on your character’s past (before the instanced tutorial). It isn’t the focus, it’s just another insight to background that temporarily takes the foreground due to uncontrollable events. Your parents were dead?: There’s a little story behind that. No different from short D&D episodic adventures based around a particular party member: it’s good and aids development, but it isn’t the major arc.

This is exactly what I was talking about back when wing 1 was released. Raids need easy mode without raid rewards. Period. There is nothing more to discuss.

King Cephalopod.7942:

Manasa Devi.7958:

So all of this is a lie? False advertising?

You should see the video on combat, where they suggest a thief “tanking” using evades (not talking about raids where there’s controllable aggro).

It’s not a lie, but it’s a little off. The part about your parents as a human? That’s part of character building based on your character’s past (before the instanced tutorial). It isn’t the focus, it’s just another insight to background that temporarily takes the foreground due to uncontrollable events. Your parents were dead?: There’s a little story behind that. No different from short D&D episodic adventures based around a particular party member: it’s good and aids development, but it isn’t the major arc.

I hope you’re aware that I’m playing the devil’s advocate here.

The fact remains, if there’s a White Mantle story happening in the raid, that is a direct link to a very important aspect of my character’s narrative, which the game advertises as important and meaningful. Of course we’ve known for a long time that it’s neither. Even aspects of some personal stories that should be important and meaningful got lost in the shuffle, like Malyck and his tree.

Raid story isn’t different from any other part of story in the game. Want to experience it fully? PLAY IT!
If you exclude yourself by simply refusing to learn, adapt and play to any part of this game then you obviously can’t expect to have the full experience of it. It is a game, not a story book, and I honestly can’t understand how it is such a big deal to group up with other people in an mmo.

Chris McSwag.4683:

Raid story isn’t different from any other part of story in the game. Want to experience it fully? PLAY IT!
If you exclude yourself by simply refusing to learn, adapt and play to any part of this game then you obviously can’t expect to have the full experience of it. It is a game, not a story book, and I honestly can’t understand how it is such a big deal to group up with other people in an mmo.

You are completely missing the point people are making here. It’s the fact that some people just do not have the time to put into raiding, which for some would have to be quite a bit due to lack of skill in order to see this content. Content which due to GW1 we are heavily interested and invested in. Like many people posting in here, I raid and will see this content for myself eventually, but for many this is not the case and putting this kind of desired content in raids is not appropriate. I’m wicked excited to fight him and I’m sure the fight will be amazing, but for the majority of people this will have to be seen on a woodenpotatoes video rather than in game which just isn’t right.

An easy mode for raids should never happen as it lowers the overall difficulty of raids.
If they do something so that everyone can experience the story, then it should be instances completely without events/the bosses and just some trash mobs around + more lore bits directly related to the bosses so you understand what’s going on. No achievements, no masteries, nothing.

This is really upsetting to me. That’s major lore that they have to know is of interest to many of us. It’s so disappointing that they chose to put it in raids. I’m super busy with work atm and don’t have time for raiding. Maybe someday I will, but not right now. Watching youtube or reading the wiki to “experience” this is just not the same thing.

If you want to explore the raid, get a cleared raid instance from someone else and explore to your hearts content. Not now, people are selling the instance for 10g lol. But in a few weeks they will give it away for free, like the 1st. You are only missing out the boss fights themself, and they contain no lore.

Molch.2078:

If you want to explore the raid, get a cleared raid instance from someone else and explore to your hearts content. Not now, people are selling the instance for 10g lol. But in a few weeks they will give it away for free, like the 1st. You are only missing out the boss fights themself, and they contain no lore.

You’d miss out on small things that makes it just a bit sweeter though. Stuff like Knuckles wanting to show you and Sabetha telling him to shut up. (iirc…)

my prediction, forsaken thicket is a prequel to season 3, the white mantle will attack tarir in an attempt to steal glints egg. what better vengeance for Lazarus to have on glint for the flame seeker prophecies then to try to corrupt her legacy.

the raid is just to bring the white mantle back into relevancy and to show they are still around being jerks.

if Lazarus is killed in the raid then yeah, gw1 peeps will be kittened; but if he is just there to taunt you and runs away, then the plot point is still open.

Just ask someone to let you in the cleared instance so you can see for yourself how much LORE there is instead if ruining any chances of ever having tidbits of story put in raids ever again.

IF Lazarus was the final boss of the 3rd raid wing, atleast it would give him some justice. Not making him a simple, easy and boring story boss like Moldy or Zaitan were, but a really hard boss like a Mursaat should be. I kind of doubt it though that he will be a boss in Forsaken Thicket, maybe we need to get ascended first to survive the spectral agony?

I’m frankly happy they’re touching on GW1 story at all in a large way. I wouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth, I love when they mesh the old with the new (and any devs reading this, I know there are a LOT of connections you draw from GW1 constantly, but rarely are they front and center like this).

Though I would be a little disappointed if such a threat is one and done. We’re just cracking open the white mantle, Matthias is literally the first member we’ve seen. If we reach the conclusion within a few hours of the next wing, their pacing will definitely be too fast. The Mantle have supposedly had 100s of years to coordinate this back, they better be a lot stronger than we realize, and Lazarus too. The next wing will be our first real look at the White Mantle, so it better not be our last, and just the start.

FWIW, the behind the scenes seems to say they’re setting up stuff that will go “well past that” but we’ll see what that actually means: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PseAcOhag8

I understand the concern though, I hope they don’t fall into a blizzard trap of just killing every major villain who ever existed (or just corrupting friends) in the universe because "hey wouldn’t it be cool if we fought this guy)

Mega Skeleton.8259:

We’re just cracking open the white mantle, Matthias is literally the first member we’ve seen.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confessor_Esthel

Manasa Devi.7958:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

We’re just cracking open the white mantle, Matthias is literally the first member we’ve seen.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confessor_Esthel

Plus . . .

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Veteran_Inquisitor_Mirella
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inquisitor_Torbon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tenad_the_Faithful
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_Demagogue

But yeah, this is the first time in a long time they’ve had any major part of the story.

I think we all appreciate a good troll thread now and again but ones regarding this particular topic are getting boring.

Considering that Anet have just posted a link to that cinematics on their main page, it’s clear they don’t consider it to be a mere troll complaint.

Astralporing.1957:

Considering that Anet have just posted a link to that cinematics on their main page, it’s clear they don’t consider it to be a mere troll complaint.

A valid complaint, repeated too many times unnecessarily, becomes a troll complaint.