Stacking & Zerging

Stacking & Zerging

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Posted by: Nick.6972

Nick.6972

Even without stacking, everyone can just run up to the boss and stand next to him and spam DPS occasionally dodging red circles or telegraphed attacks.

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Posted by: TChalla.7146

TChalla.7146

You know what would make large scale combat more difficult? Removing those red circles that appear when AoE attacks are coming.

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Posted by: Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I’m not against stacking nor zerging per se. They’re legitimate tactics.

However, as this is a game played for fun rather than a real life or death struggle, there should be some mechanics introduced which make all playstyles equally rewarding (in terms of in-game rewards) rather than favoring a single tactic.

With a 5-target cap on AoE, it makes the most sense to seek safety in numbers; there’s nothing inherently wrong with that (and, no, the cap won’t be raised because ArenaNet has repeatedly stated they won’t do this for various performance reasons).

Where the problem lies is this breaks with the age-old paradigm of low risk gets low rewards and high risk gets high rewards. As it stands now, zerging reverses this; it is a low risk/high reward tactic. Therefore, it makes no sense to do anything else.

  • The zerg carries more supply for building siege for breaking into fortifications.
  • If it runs out of supply, blueprints, or simply doesn’t want to bother, it can DPS down the gate with auto-attacks.
  • The AoE limit means only a small percentage of the zerg will ever be damaged by AoE.
  • If any member of the zerg is downed or defeated, they have the numbers to quickly rez that member.
  • The rewards are the same for every member of the zerg, regardless of how many members it has.

So how to return to the low risk/low reward, high risk/high reward system while still allowing room for zerging?

1) When capturing fortifications or defeating NPCs, divide the reward by the number of players in the zerg. Use a radius of say 2,400 to determine the number of players in an area or even use the same radius for guild buffs which have been applied to an objective.

The reward will never drop below a minimum threshold, though. For example, let’s say there’s a reward of 50 copper and 100 players in the zerg. Without a cap, this would mean each member of the zerg would receive 1/2 of a copper. Obviously, the game doesn’t have denominations less than 1 copper. In this instance, then, perhaps the minimum reward is 5 copper.

2) When facing real players, use reward multipliers based on the disparity in numbers between the two groups. If a zerg of 100 steamrolls a party of 5, the zerg will be rewarded 1/20th of what they would have been rewarded had their numbers been equal.

Rewards for defeating real players aren’t measured in coins, so the multiplier would influence the rolls on the loot table as well as decrease the number of badges a member of the zerg would receive in this scenario. Again, minimum caps would be instituted.

Likewise, a smaller group would have their rewards increased when defeating enemy players in a larger group. If a group of 10 players defeats a group of 20 players, their reward multiplier will be 2x normal.

3) The gates of tier 3 fortifications can not be damaged by player weapon or utility skills. The zerg is no longer rewarded for simply DPS-ing down a gate. However, the onus is placed on the defenders to hold that fortification and upgrade it to tier 3. If they fail to do so, the zerg could still DPS down the gate at tier 1 or tier 2.

With these changes the zerg still gains the benefit of low risk (safety in numbers, barely affected by AoE) but is no longer the single best option for earning high rewards. It will be appropriate for players new to WvWvW who are just learning the ropes, lack sufficient confidence in their PvP abilities, or lack experience with their profession. They have the security of running with the pack; their rewards just won’t be as high.

The smaller groups, by contrast, are then (potentially) rewarded more for leaving the protection of the zerg and taking the greater risk of running with fewer numbers.

What’s more is, this is self-balancing since larger and smaller are relative terms. The 50 player zerg steam rolls a 5 player party and gets minimal rewards. The same zerg then wipes a 60 player enemy zerg and gets a bonus multiplier for their rewards. The 50 player zerg then gets wiped by a 30 player guild zerg who, in turn, receive a bonus multiplier. The 30 player guild zerg then overruns a 10 player group and receives diminished rewards.

The reward system is then based more on a group’s skill in defeating a force of equal or greater numbers rather than being rewarded for simply taking advantage of the game’s AoE limitations, overwhelming a numerically inferior force, or DPS-ing down a gate. The zergs will still remain, but now there’s an incentive for running smaller numbers, too (due to choice or circumstance).

So many souls, so little time. ~ Kraag Deadsoul

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Posted by: Ision.3207

Ision.3207

Something needs to be done. These 2 brainless strategies take the fun and any possibility of a challenge out of the game.

Quick explanation.

Stacking: Commonly done in PvE. The act of having your entire group or even your open world bunch stand in one place (preferably against terrain) during an entire encounter against enemy npcs.
Doing so makes it easy to abuse boon stacking, heals, combo fields and even evade some mechanics that would only be performed at range. It is not only boring and takes away the already minimal challenge that pve provides, it’s also anticlimactic and pathetic.

Fixes:
1. Make enemy npcs stack boons by default when they are at 150 range from each other or lower. (Might, Retaliation and Protection every 2 seconds)

2. In the case of isolated of bosses, give them potent point-blank aoe’s to ALL of them. I’m talking about 5k dps at the very least if you choose to stand in their pbaoe.



Zerging: A silly strategy consisting in literally putting dozens of people together with a common objective, reducing the risk of failure significantly while hiding any possible lack of individual skill for the most part. Because it’s no longer a bunch of players together, it’s an entity of its own instead, a button mashing FX-overload cluster where higher numbers usually win.

It’s not exclusive to WvW, people also do it in PvE. But I don’t think anything can be done in PvE unless Arenanet somehow develops the tech to have bosses only use certain devastating skills if a player threshold is reached, or to have its npcs damage switch on the fly as more players join up (no, adds barely help).

Anyway,

WvW fixes:

1. Add diminishing returns on structures and enemy server npcs if there are more than X players bunched up together.

2. Have an additional kind of Outmanned buff, available when you’re against ridiculous odds in a certain range. The buff would be proportional to the enemy:ally player ratio in the field nearby. (This buff would add bonus % damage reduction). It gets dispelled as soon as you leave the zone.

I know these ideas need work and are probably very primitive, but seriously something needs to be done. Change the way in which this game is played, right now people just abuse whats easiest (as it always has been) to get an edge on others and that’s okay, but these specific strats are just not fun. I’m sure some others playstyles would develop if these 2 were to be destroyed.

Razor, your heart is in the right place. And I agree with a great deal of your post. Whether your solutions are practical or not, I don’t know – but I like the spirit behind it.

However, here is where you went wrong, it’s when you said, "… while hiding any possible lack of individual skill for the most part. " That single line will always touch a nerve on some people, it shouldn’t, but it commonly does. I’m always astonished with the viscerally angry reaction some folks have to anyone who suggest “smarting up” the game, instead of “dumbing it down” … but that’s just the way it is.

So Razor, piece of advice, learn to make your suggestion posts directed solely to Anet and the Devs, and avoid fruitless debates with folks that are irritated that you had the gall to even suggest something in the first place.

Colin Johanson to Eurogamer: "Everyone, including casual gamers,
by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.
We want everyone on an equal power base.”

(edited by Ision.3207)

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Posted by: Kibazuka.1390

Kibazuka.1390

People are misunderstanding me. I’m aware that stacking is the most effective way of dealing with pve right now. But is it satisfying, or even interesting? Is it challenging (not saying that normal pve is that challenging as a whole) in the slightest?

No, it is not interesting, yes, it is satisfying.

Heres something for you: I -and many others as well- know basically every freakin stone there is in game, ive done and seen it all. There is nothing left to do other than seeing what the new patch brought out – which is hardly enough for 2 weeks. So we have to set goals for ourself. Skins that we like for our alts or things like that. And what have they all in common? They cost gold, and often alot of it. Now, anything that is fun or interesting in this game doesnt bring any gold at all.
We are left with two options: Champ train or Speed clearing. I did choose the latter because i can chit chalk with my friends and have a laugh or two since we dont really have to pay attention anymore.
I did the dungeon and fractals “the way they are intended” the first, second, maybe even third time, was quite fun. But after running them a thousand times and seeing them every day i dont care anymore. Running around, stacking, whatever, i find it horribly boring either way. I just want to have it done as fast as possible. And now, every day or so some funny guy like you comes around saying our time for dungeons and therefore gold income should get nerfed for no other reason other than you dont like it.
Wth, these must be some champtrainers being envy of speedclearers doing more gold than them, there is no other reason people could seriously suggest other people should get less gold for such selfish reasons.
I did them a 1000 times, i learned all there is to know, what does that, what encounter does this, the players have earned their rights and skills to do these dungeons that fast and im glad anet allows it instead of forcing the players to do exactly how they want them to play.
Stacking is not easier or more braindead than running around. As already suggested thousand times, if you want to play like that than search for players playing like that. If you want still more challenge, go naked or with some trashbuild or whatever do i care.
Please stop to offend other peoples playstyles for your ridiculously selfish reasons.

Ranger – Drakkar Lake[DE]
Full melee Ranger since August 2012

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Posted by: Amins.3710

Amins.3710

It never stops amazing me how some people think they can force their narrow view of how game play should function on everyone.

Stacking in a corner has been a valid combat strategy in MMO’s since the dawn of time. Smart use of your surroundings in combat has allways been a huge part of combat.

It’s also clear you have no idea about support functions in GW2.

Clearly your concept of “the dawn of time” is completely different than any veteran mmo player, because I remember a time where I BEGGED you to stand clumbed together cuz my PBAoE was going to tear you and your little toto too, a new kitten in about 4s… tops.

Amins – Guardian
Gameplay Video’s & Forum Post

(edited by Amins.3710)

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Posted by: ozmaniandevil.6805

ozmaniandevil.6805

Oh boy. Another thread where one person is telling everyone else how the game WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED…. based on their opinion of what constitutes “good” and “bad” gameplay.

Please. Save it. All of you can save it. ANet produces content, and developers play the game. I’m quite certain things are working as intended. If not, that’s up to THEM to decide (as evidenced in their never-ending “balancing patches”).

Stop (!) passing off your own opinions as “the best way”, “the right way”, “the true way”. It just makes you sound like a single-minded zealot.

Isle of Janthir – Knights of the Rose (KoR)

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Posted by: Asumita.2174

Asumita.2174

It’s be funny so have an anti stack grenade that knocks everyone out 1200 in all directions. No damage to keep it fair. Would be a sight to see lol

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Posted by: Carnius Magius.8091

Carnius Magius.8091

Stacking and Zerging is good way to get daily and monthly achievements out of the way. I see no incentive to play WvW for any other purpose other than for farming. No glory for winning and it’s no big deal for losing. Seems like many in Fort Aspenwood has taken this attitude.

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Posted by: Riss.1536

Riss.1536

Sorry but I’m a melee player so even if it’s not intentional, I stack or people stack on me. No you won’t force me to play ranged, sorry.
And Op you’re over exaggerating, you must be stacking only arround 1% of the time and go free for all the rest of the dungeon.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

People are misunderstanding me. I’m aware that stacking is the most effective way of dealing with pve right now. But is it satisfying, or even interesting? Is it challenging (not saying that normal pve is that challenging as a whole) in the slightest?

No, it is not interesting, yes, it is satisfying.

Heres something for you: I -and many others as well- know basically every freakin stone there is in game, ive done and seen it all. There is nothing left to do other than seeing what the new patch brought out – which is hardly enough for 2 weeks. So we have to set goals for ourself. Skins that we like for our alts or things like that. And what have they all in common? They cost gold, and often alot of it. Now, anything that is fun or interesting in this game doesnt bring any gold at all.
We are left with two options: Champ train or Speed clearing. I did choose the latter because i can chit chalk with my friends and have a laugh or two since we dont really have to pay attention anymore.
I did the dungeon and fractals “the way they are intended” the first, second, maybe even third time, was quite fun. But after running them a thousand times and seeing them every day i dont care anymore. Running around, stacking, whatever, i find it horribly boring either way. I just want to have it done as fast as possible. And now, every day or so some funny guy like you comes around saying our time for dungeons and therefore gold income should get nerfed for no other reason other than you dont like it.
Wth, these must be some champtrainers being envy of speedclearers doing more gold than them, there is no other reason people could seriously suggest other people should get less gold for such selfish reasons.
I did them a 1000 times, i learned all there is to know, what does that, what encounter does this, the players have earned their rights and skills to do these dungeons that fast and im glad anet allows it instead of forcing the players to do exactly how they want them to play.
Stacking is not easier or more braindead than running around. As already suggested thousand times, if you want to play like that than search for players playing like that. If you want still more challenge, go naked or with some trashbuild or whatever do i care.
Please stop to offend other peoples playstyles for your ridiculously selfish reasons.

what you are saying is essentially the game is now boring, so i want to get it done as fast as possible. Your main motivation is the large amount of gold required for anything you do.

I say they should be working on making the game more interesting, and try to lessen the OPness of gold per hour as the only thing that matters in the game.

Create AI scrpts/encounters that cause challenging fights that feel different, and dungeons that are different each time you do them, with many objectives and ways to complete them.
Reward people appropriately for said content.

Speed clearing as a game style is cool, but it should be less about rote memorization (though it should be a factor) and more about dealing with each situation.

Best speed clear type mechanic i played was phantasy star challenge mode. The levels were a combination of puzzles, tricks and straight up fighting, with multiple paths to success, speed clearing required teamwork skill, and a bit of luck. Enemies were randomized, and every time you did the same level it played out differently.

I mean i take what you said in your post as GW has failed to deliver interesting lasting content, and now its all about grinding in order to get gold. To top it off the best ways to get gold are the least interesting.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I do wish that dungeon bosses were designed to require tactics to beat them, and while stacking is a tactic, it shouldn’t be the one that always works no matter what.

There should be a time and a place for stacking, and a time and a place for something else. The more recent world boss encounters suggest that ArenaNet is working on improving their boss fight designs, which is encouraging.

Server: Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: DeWolfe.2174

DeWolfe.2174

I’d SO down vote this thread. Just because you are anti-social, don’t start commanding that everyone else should be too. Beside the fact that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win.

For what’s interesting, WE’RE supposed to be what’s interesting! We, the players, are what makes the game dynamic, fun, and ever changing.

[AwM] of Jade Quarry.

(edited by DeWolfe.2174)

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Posted by: timidobserver.7925

timidobserver.7925

2. In the case of isolated of bosses, give them potent point-blank aoe’s to ALL of them. I’m talking about 5k dps at the very least if you choose to stand in their pbaoe.

I didn’t even read the rest of your post after coming to this portion which basically makes melee dps impossible.

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Posted by: Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I’d SO down vote this thread. Just because you are anti-social, don’t start commanding that everyone else should be too. Beside the fact that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win.

Ummm…no…not really. The days of human wave rushes being a viable military tactic were rendered obsolete with the advent of the machine gun in WWI. Stacking or clustering of any kind is a mistake in the face of bombs, explosives, missiles, and rockets. Any army employing these tactics today in the face of modern firepower quickly learns a very real and very painful lesson.

No matter how heroic the notion may seem, the days of hundreds or thousands of soldiers bunching up together and marching off to fight an opponent are long gone. It has evolved to where multiple smaller units coordinate efforts across the theater to accomplish a common goal. So, no, zerging and stacking are not real world tactics that win.

And before the response of, “This is a game, not real life.” gets posted, keep in mind this is merely a response to DeWolfe opening that can of worms to begin with by asserting that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win. LOL

So many souls, so little time. ~ Kraag Deadsoul

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Posted by: Sweetbread.2679

Sweetbread.2679

Wow people actually enjoy stacking and impossible to fail auto attack zergs? Why are you even playing a game if it requires next to no input from you? Go watch a friggin movie.

This is the player base that happens when you design a GAME around being as “accessible” (read: dumbed down) as possible instead of designing it around people who actually enjoy PLAYING games.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I think adding cleave attacks to mobs is an excellent suggestion to at least force the players to split up a bit. It’s pretty dumb how right now players can just stack on top of each other in a corner, and the mobs just pile on top of it like brain dead robots.

I’m not saying players are wrong to abuse the flaws of the ai (in fact, by all means). But I think the developers should step up their game. Make combat a bit more intelligent.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: hendo.1940

hendo.1940

Seems people need to get out of faceroll content and so some Arah. Try stacking versus the elites in that dungeon, you’ll get chewed out without co-ordinated CC.

Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Players stack in dungeons/Fractals because the enemies hit so dang hard that your best chance of survival is to basically ball up and burn the enemy down before he can get enough chances to kill you. This is why the Zerker meta is so popular, because it is the best solution to the challenge that ANet has presented. Of course, the fallout here is that other builds and strategies become unwanted, even derided, which means that players who want to play something other than straight DPS become 2nd class players.

Were it up to me, I’d alter the root of the problem and make dungeons/Fractals EASIER. Turn all Elites into Veterans, all Champs into Elites, and most Legendary foes (except for end dungeon bosses) into Champs. This now makes zerker/stacking largely unnecessary since most halfway decent groups can beat a dungeon by just playing as they would in the open world.

Next, buff the loot from these trash mobs so it becomes more profitable to kill rather than skip them, and increase the final reward at the end of the dungeon to scale based on the number of objectives completed during the dungeon.

Finally, for players who want more challenge for their dungeons, introduce the Fractal instability system to dungeons so they can do “Hard Mode” if they wish.

(edited by Zaxares.5419)

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Posted by: Illveran.3514

Illveran.3514

Ive recently invited bunch of new players into the game and it was some kind of embarassing to show them how 90% of the playerbase are doing dungeons, and how they should behave when grouping with pugs. While we play together we are able to do every fight the normal way but when we invite even one player from the lfg tool hes just confused wtf are we doing and i must tell that majority of them do not know how to play the right way.
Stacking is pathetic and anet should adress this exploit way back when it started becoming the pve mindset.

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Posted by: Duke Blackrose.4981

Duke Blackrose.4981

Ive recently invited bunch of new players into the game and it was some kind of embarassing to show them how 90% of the playerbase are doing dungeons, and how they should behave when grouping with pugs. While we play together we are able to do every fight the normal way but when we invite even one player from the lfg tool hes just confused wtf are we doing and i must tell that majority of them do not know how to play the right way.
Stacking is pathetic and anet should adress this exploit way back when it started becoming the pve mindset.

Yep. If nothing else, stacking is an embarrassing blemish on Guild Wars 2’s face in the eyes of the outside community, new players, and anyone who is on-the-fence about purchasing the game.

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Posted by: azizul.8469

azizul.8469

up until now i still find GW1 monster AI is far more intelligent than any other game’s…

they resurrect their dead, they heal their ally, and they attack our healer….

Cutie Phantasmer/Farinas [HAX] – CD Casual
Archeage = Farmville with PK

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Posted by: DeWolfe.2174

DeWolfe.2174

I’d SO down vote this thread. Just because you are anti-social, don’t start commanding that everyone else should be too. Beside the fact that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win.

Ummm…no…not really. The days of human wave rushes being a viable military tactic were rendered obsolete with the advent of the machine gun in WWI. Stacking or clustering of any kind is a mistake in the face of bombs, explosives, missiles, and rockets. Any army employing these tactics today in the face of modern firepower quickly learns a very real and very painful lesson.

No matter how heroic the notion may seem, the days of hundreds or thousands of soldiers bunching up together and marching off to fight an opponent are long gone. It has evolved to where multiple smaller units coordinate efforts across the theater to accomplish a common goal. So, no, zerging and stacking are not real world tactics that win.

And before the response of, “This is a game, not real life.” gets posted, keep in mind this is merely a response to DeWolfe opening that can of worms to begin with by asserting that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win. LOL

LOL… as if Force Concentration hasn’t been and still is a viable tactic today??? Not even going to continue.

[AwM] of Jade Quarry.

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Posted by: Kurr.4179

Kurr.4179

So your solution to stacking in PvE is to essentially hurt EVERYONE who melees? No thanks.

Also zerging is just part of the WvW experience. It takes many people to down objectives so naturally group together. A small group with take your tower, so you form your own small group to defend against them or retake it, then both groups starting growing because more and more people join in the fight. Commanders help lead these people and often times you will see the mass players split into 2 big groups plus there are always roamers and people who like to scout. This is just natural human behaviour, you can’t remove it. It’s part of the intended way to play WvW IMO and it’s perfectly fine.

I just completely disagree with both of your points. PvE could be more challenging without stacking but forcing everyone to range every encounter will make it 100x worse.

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Posted by: FateOmega.9601

FateOmega.9601

If you don’t like to stack then don’t stack. Why do you want others to follow your restrictions?

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Posted by: Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I’d SO down vote this thread. Just because you are anti-social, don’t start commanding that everyone else should be too. Beside the fact that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win.

Ummm…no…not really. The days of human wave rushes being a viable military tactic were rendered obsolete with the advent of the machine gun in WWI. Stacking or clustering of any kind is a mistake in the face of bombs, explosives, missiles, and rockets. Any army employing these tactics today in the face of modern firepower quickly learns a very real and very painful lesson.

No matter how heroic the notion may seem, the days of hundreds or thousands of soldiers bunching up together and marching off to fight an opponent are long gone. It has evolved to where multiple smaller units coordinate efforts across the theater to accomplish a common goal. So, no, zerging and stacking are not real world tactics that win.

And before the response of, “This is a game, not real life.” gets posted, keep in mind this is merely a response to DeWolfe opening that can of worms to begin with by asserting that zerging and stacking are real world tactics that win. LOL

LOL… as if Force Concentration hasn’t been and still is a viable tactic today??? Not even going to continue.

Force Concentration =/= stacking & zerging. Nice try, though. Good choice not to continue.

So many souls, so little time. ~ Kraag Deadsoul

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Posted by: Paffus Piffus.9430

Paffus Piffus.9430

If you don’t like to stack then don’t stack. Why do you want others to follow your restrictions?

#While this is the most obvious and humanistic response, it will be lost amongst the crowd who believe their way is the right way, and their way is the only way.

I also think anyone who can generalise someone as being a brainless idiot because they take part in something they deem inappropriate, is beyond the voice of reason.

There are simply too many threads here where people put the game down, and put others down for the way they play it. I’m new to GW2, I signed up to be a part of the community for a game I am really enjoying, but there isn’t much of a community here just people ripping into stuff, which although common on internet forums, seems more rife here than even somewhere like gamefaqs.

For the record, I enjoy zerging in the borderlands, it’s fun, it’s epic, I still die sometimes (YES, I’m not very skilled either) but the sense of doing something alongside so many people is pretty cool to me. However, I am not braindead, or stupid, or anything like a moron, so please don’t assume that just because I do something you don’t like, it makes me a cretin.

I don’t like what I see in this forum, and think I’ll choose to seek advice and talk about the game elsewhere. The next thing will be complaints that people are gathering in EoTM when they should be repairing a ballista.

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

Just increase mob damage and health. Problem solved.

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

Tenfold.

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Posted by: Riss.1536

Riss.1536

Ummm…no…not really. The days of human wave rushes being a viable military tactic were rendered obsolete with the advent of the machine gun in WWI Stacking or clustering of any kind is a mistake in the face of bombs, explosives, missiles, and rockets.[…]

Ummm… We’re talking about a game which is more mediaval like than modern like where there are still people with swords and shields. I don’t want to break your fantasy but medieval wars always looked like zerg.

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Posted by: Rapier.3675

Rapier.3675

There was always search for shortcuts and fastest way to do in PVE for more and best profit u can get in any MMO I have ever played.

Stack is smth any game have. Lets face it for buffing and making combos etc. stacking/grouping is part of group play. It makes easier buffing, better defence etc. Anyway its done in any game at pvp and pve. Group can’t function if u r scattered around. Not even at games with holly trinity. U wont get heals, u wont get buffs and ull be easy target.
In wvw aoe was already limited to 5 targets and dmg isn’t close to dmg of a single target. Counting buffs, debuffs and dmg. Finaly they made buffing party priority, so u don’t waste buffs on others. And even for that u need to stay close. For range, well at organized play buffs are called so u know when to rush to ur party to get needed buffs/heal.
AOE/stacking iare just needed form of play in multiple fights.

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Stacking: [snipping nonsense suggestions

Do you know why people stack? Almost every creature is a complete and utter joke. How about this for a crazy solution: Make the monsters actually threatening to the party. The fact that players solo dungeons should speak volumes about how true this is.

There are creatures players don’t stack on. The Flame Shaman in the Volcano Fractal is an example. This monster is actually dangerous, especially at high levels. There’s also the Frizz fight in the Aetherblade Fractal, where players cannot stand still. (Unless using some exploit to bypass one of the walls)

The problem is creature design, not the mechanics of the game.

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Posted by: CntrlAltDefeat.1465

CntrlAltDefeat.1465

Push, pull, throw, knockback, knockdown, defiant, unstoppable. In Sandbox content there is no way to communicate any of this easily. While person is channeling a PbAoE and another setting up a spike, along comes someone who then knocks them all the way back and leaves everyone flat footed. How does one avoid this highly annoying practice of pulling, throwing, knocking back at convenient times?..stack in a corner and everyone can do exactly what they wanna do without interrupting everyone else unintentionally, whilst sharing all boon and prots applied by everyone. You want A-net to change player behaviour when they actually need to change every single foe mechanic from the ground up. It is fair to assume this will take quite a bit of work.
It is not selfish for people to play as they want to, it is only selfish to expect everyone to play as you want them to.

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Ummm… We’re talking about a game which is more mediaval like than modern like where there are still people with swords and shields. I don’t want to break your fantasy but medieval wars always looked like zerg.

No, they looked like formations. There is a huuuge difference between a zerg and a formation. The best example of this is the way the Romans made formations. They didn’t just stack on top of each other. They had ranged people in the back, shields and spears in the front, throwing spears just behind them. And when the battle demanded it, they could assume different formations as well. They did not pile on top of each other behind a corner, and wait for the enemy to pile on top of them, or just blindly charge forward as one big mob. They used flanked maneuvers as well, and made use of cover from terrain, or the inclination of the land.

None of these things can be found in zerg and stack strategies in GW2. This is because GW2’s combat was not designed to encourage positional awareness (unlike the ai in GW1). The only thing that slightly comes close to realism, is the way wvw zergs deliberately flank their enemies. Although that is more a case of a surprise attack, rather than actual flanking. (since the game doesn’t provide flanking bonusses)

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)

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Posted by: Fenrir.3609

Fenrir.3609

“Anyone not playing in my special snowflake way needs to be penalised and nerfed!” – Sanctimonious Player.9329

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Posted by: hendo.1940

hendo.1940

Ummm… We’re talking about a game which is more mediaval like than modern like where there are still people with swords and shields. I don’t want to break your fantasy but medieval wars always looked like zerg.

No, they looked like formations. There is a huuuge difference between a zerg and a formation. The best example of this is the way the Romans made formations. They didn’t just stack on top of each other. They had ranged people in the back, shields and spears in the front, throwing spears just behind them. And when the battle demanded it, they could assume different formations as well. They did not pile on top of each other behind a corner, and wait for the enemy to pile on top of them, or just blindly charge forward as one big mob. They used flanked maneuvers as well, and made use of cover from terrain, or the inclination of the land.

None of these things can be found in zerg and stack strategies in GW2. This is because GW2’s combat was not designed to encourage positional awareness (unlike the ai in GW1). The only thing that slightly comes close to realism, is the way wvw zergs deliberately flank their enemies. Although that is more a case of a surprise attack, rather than actual flanking. (since the game doesn’t provide flanking bonusses)

I’m pretty sure you could count things like the battle of Teutoberg Forest and pretty much every ambush in history ever as armies pulling, stacking and LoSing.

Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.

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Posted by: Rin.1046

Rin.1046

Using combo fields was intended, otherwise why add them. Stacking on combo fields is the most effective way to get the most out of them. No problem there as far as I can see.

In terms of PvE the problem is not and never has been the combo system or the combat mechanics. The problem is down to the encounter mechanics themselves. If a mob/boss allows players to simply stand in one spot and stack boons for an easy ride then that is a problem with the way the encounter works, not the combo system. If bosses moved about more or knocked players out of combo fields, that would be one way to address this issue. Anet is already taking steps to improve this, but more needs to be done to existing encounters.

Zerging is only a problem when two uncoordinated forces collide. When uncoordinated forces collide 9 times out of 10 the larger force wins, unless there are more skilled players on the smaller side. But if you have a small coordinated group against a larger uncoordinated group, it is very likely the coordinated group will win. I have seen this countless times and it is always impressive to be a part of, regardless of which side I’m on.

So while zerging may seem boring to many, with the right group of people it can be a lot of fun. I remember defending Bay with a force at least 3 times smaller than the attacking force and we held off attack after attack until, 30 minutes later, more allies arrived and forced them to give up. It was an amazing fight and one I will never forget.

I have been part of mindless zergs too, so I understand where your frustration comes from, but I do not think it is that much of a problem. No-one is forcing you to zerg and there are things you can do in smaller groups to help out. In WvW you can assist your zerg by picking off enemies from the rear or taking out enemies that venture too far out. Or you can help take supply camps and towers. In PvE you can still take part in large scale events with a small group. While the large zerg is tackling a boss your small group can take out adds or perform other side objectives in an event.

A zerg is a part of the game, but it’s not a compulsory one. Some people enjoy them some people don’t.

Simplicity is complex.

Good feedback is key to getting the developers to listen to you.

(edited by Rin.1046)

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

A zerg is a part of the game, but it’s not a compulsory one. Some people enjoy them some people don’t.

While it’s not compulsory fun wise, it’s extremely recommended loot wise.

GW2 loot system, which is IMHO a nice way to prevent players from becoming a nuissance to each other, has shown to be “exploitable” and allow the community to purposely force zergs at some specific points for better profit.
With the aid of scaling (another awesome feature on its own) some events have been forced for months to spawn craploads of lootable mobs. An insane manpower has sometimes proven to be enough to produce incomes far beyond what a single player could achieve.

Some benefit to grouping up is understandable, even positive, from the social aspect of the game. The zerg gameplay is, however, completely different, arguably lackluster (let us not forget that GW2 combat is designed and balanced around small scale PvP), and absolutely not to everyone’s taste.
Some people might like it and there’s no problem with that. The way looting works, however, implies that in order to limit the income for zerg players you also have to make single players, which don’t benefit from either scaling or manpower, to receive next to nothing from the same content, and that’s a slap in the face.

ANet seems to have learned the lesson and every recently released massive content has all the reward tied to event completion (with enemy spawns granting next to zero loot).
For every older content (which are the most), however, this side-effect is still truth and makes soloing open world extremely unrewarding. Even in those few cases where a small group can outperform a zerg (the ones with a decent completion reward, like some orr temples), the latter is still likely to appear and prevent it for happening.

Even if not exactly sensitive to scaling, WvW is no way free from this side-effect.
A 30vs30 fight is going to provide a lot more loot for everyone than a 3vs3 at some random camp. Even losing this massive battle is likely to give you a better income than winning a 2vs3 uneven fight.
When a player jumps into WvW, a zerg is going offer him more loot/WXP and a faster daily achievement completion. It might be not the most enjoyable experience for everyone, but at this point of the game, where every content is arguably old and has been experienced many times, loot means A LOT.

(edited by Vargamonth.2047)

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Posted by: stale.9785

stale.9785

They will do nothing about stacking and zerging – having huge numbers of people together lets them pretend there are many people doing many things. The fact that those people are all doing one thing (stand here and press 1) doesn’t come into consideration.

It’s rather like the forced WvW for map completion. It allows them to use their metrics and claim that most PvE players become WvW players, when anyone else knows this is blatantly untrue.

It’s all about numbers, and how they can massage them to tell them what they want to hear.

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Posted by: TChalla.7146

TChalla.7146

They will do nothing about stacking and zerging – having huge numbers of people together lets them pretend there are many people doing many things. The fact that those people are all doing one thing (stand here and press 1) doesn’t come into consideration.

It’s rather like the forced WvW for map completion. It allows them to use their metrics and claim that most PvE players become WvW players, when anyone else knows this is blatantly untrue.

It’s all about numbers, and how they can massage them to tell them what they want to hear.

I don’t know if you’re aware of this fact, but your theory doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Manipulating their collected data to make up their own facts would hurt them every bit as much as it would us, since their job relies on that data to determine how to maintain their player base and get new players to try the game.

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Posted by: Lobo Dela Noche.5127

Lobo Dela Noche.5127

remove the AOE cap, and WWW / open world zerging is fixed.

add mobs cleaves and PVE stacking is fixed.

What this guy said.

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Posted by: Lobo Dela Noche.5127

Lobo Dela Noche.5127

They will do nothing about stacking and zerging – having huge numbers of people together lets them pretend there are many people doing many things. The fact that those people are all doing one thing (stand here and press 1) doesn’t come into consideration.

It’s rather like the forced WvW for map completion. It allows them to use their metrics and claim that most PvE players become WvW players, when anyone else knows this is blatantly untrue.

It’s all about numbers, and how they can massage them to tell them what they want to hear.

I don’t know if you’re aware of this fact, but your theory doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Manipulating their collected data to make up their own facts would hurt them every bit as much as it would us, since their job relies on that data to determine how to maintain their player base and get new players to try the game.

They manipulate those numbers for stockholders so that quarterly graphs look good. He didn’t say it was for player retention.

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Posted by: Chaosky.5276

Chaosky.5276

The game was designed with stacking in mind. That said, it is a stupid design.

Let’s say you’ve got a group of five fighting a massive, fire-breathing drake – two warriors, a guardian, an elementalist, and a thief. What do you think is the best course of action? (Skills are restricted by lore rather than what’s shown in-game for this example, because in-game skills are designed for stacking.)

A: Group up so that the spellcasters only have to erect one barrier at close range to protect the party as you all beat on the thing.

B: Have the elementalist cast buff and damage spells from range, have the guardian focus on healing the party and drawing the drake’s attention, have the thief climb on its back and stab it in the spine (a lot), and let the warriors hack away.

Now, stacking would certainly be the better choice if your opponent can attack from all angles, or there’s no room to maneuver or something like that, but otherwise it’s just silly.

TL;DR: Stacking is stupid from a roleplaying perspective.

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Posted by: Duke Blackrose.4981

Duke Blackrose.4981

The game was designed with stacking in mind. That said, it is a stupid design.

That’s a bit of a stretch.

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, then why was the ability to move while performing almost every skill in the game such an advertised feature?

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, why does the camera freak out in many popular stacking scenarios?

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, why do most encounters lack mechanics that could threaten the stackers?

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, why did it take months for stacking to become popular and longer for it to become the meta?

If the game was designed in mind, why would they bother restricting support skill ranges for shouts and other mechanics to 600 units or less, when the restriction was just going to be made meaningless by stacking anyway?

I’m sure I could come up with more arguments than that, but that should suffice. The developers definitely didn’t set a goal for stacking to become the dominant gameplay (and if they did, I would have to question their tastes and intelligence); it’s more like the situation is a sort of happy convenience for stacking groups, as enemy and terrain mechanics just happened to work together to make their playstyle not only possible, but (with only a few exceptions) easy.

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Posted by: Chaosky.5276

Chaosky.5276

The game was designed with stacking in mind. That said, it is a stupid design.

That’s a bit of a stretch.

The massive preference for PBAoE buffs is what makes me think that, particularly combo fields.

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Posted by: WRay.2391

WRay.2391

IMO there are several issue here.
1. Dungeon design. Not all bosses can be done by stacking. For ex. Arah p4 when you need to stay in your circle to damage wraith, then you need to chase it. Arah giant ooze when you need to stay in your circle to lure him. This is not best examples what can be done, but dungeons can be redesigned.
2. Lack of new content and increased grind requirements. As somebody already said if you can complete dungeon for 10 mins instead of 30 mins – it’s a way to go. There is NO difference in reward if you kill all monsters. Don’t nerf, add good rewards for additional time spent so it worth it. In WvW one way to get ascended material – capture, leave undefended, capture again. Train is most efficient for this. Create even bigger reward with ascended material and chest drop chance for defense and ppl will start thinking about it.

P.S. Anet, don’t nerf. Put effort and make things and manner of play REWARDING so ppl will start doing it.

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Posted by: tom.7468

tom.7468

The reason players stack is because its faster not because its easier.
If mobs would kite it would just promote even more elitism because clearing a dungeon would go 5 times slower. If they are going to “nerf” this then give us heroes.
What do you mean by lack of skill? you will still be doing the same thing if you don’t stack only difference is you will take more damage and do less damage. I got trough cliffside fractal without stacking on the ether seal part. Because of the agony that make the blow up when they die. Its possible we just had to think new.
It was not harder but certainly MUCH slower.

-1 to this idea , you’re free to advertise “kill all no cheap tactics” run.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

The game was designed with stacking in mind. That said, it is a stupid design.

That’s a bit of a stretch.

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, then why was the ability to move while performing almost every skill in the game such an advertised feature?

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, why does the camera freak out in many popular stacking scenarios?

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, why do most encounters lack mechanics that could threaten the stackers?

If the game was designed with stacking in mind, why did it take months for stacking to become popular and longer for it to become the meta?

If the game was designed in mind, why would they bother restricting support skill ranges for shouts and other mechanics to 600 units or less, when the restriction was just going to be made meaningless by stacking anyway?

I’m sure I could come up with more arguments than that, but that should suffice. The developers definitely didn’t set a goal for stacking to become the dominant gameplay (and if they did, I would have to question their tastes and intelligence); it’s more like the situation is a sort of happy convenience for stacking groups, as enemy and terrain mechanics just happened to work together to make their playstyle not only possible, but (with only a few exceptions) easy.

However, the developers did design team-play mechanics so that the team had to be close to each other in order to take advantage of those mechanics. They also touted a design intent that explorable dungeons were intended for coordinated teams of skilled players. What’s there to coordinate if not for team-play mechanics? I suppose you could coordinate interrupts, but the Defiant mechanic made that more trouble than it’s worth. That pretty much leaves group heals, group buffs and group defenses via skills or combo fields.

I agree that it’s a bit much to say that ANet designed the game around the developing dungeon stacking meta. However, the hodge-podge of things they did design lend themselves very well to stacking. The only reason that stacking is not mandatory in dungeons is that dungeon difficulty is not so hard that the dungeon cannot be completed by uncoordinated teams of somewhat skilled players.

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Stacking isn’t an issue when the boss is actually threatening. Make more dangerous creatures and encounters and watch the problem go away.

However, you’ll probably see the “FIX STACKING” posts with “NERF BOSS PLZ!!”

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Posted by: DiamondMeteor.8345

DiamondMeteor.8345

The only way to make encounters more enjoyable is to make the mechanics of the fight more challenging. Improving AI, most notably.

In GW1 enemies would scatter if you placed AoE in their vicinity. Maybe implementing that might cause some battle variance, preventing melee cleave stacking potency?

Mobs in GW2 just happen to fixate on a single target unless they are chasing a target while chilled/crippled. Perhaps the aggro mechanism of the monsters could have some randomized variable so mobs don’t simply drool over the player with the higher toughness?

It’s not really a problem with players. Stacking in a corner is kinda’ commonplace in every MMORPG game. It just happens to be so efficient in GW2 since AI is dumb as crap (strangely downgraded from GW1 somehow), and buffs from most classes affect nearby allies rather than the “earshot” range of GW1. Personally, I find battles far more intense and adrenaline-filled when we’re always on the move, but it’s just not efficient in GW2.

Ranger / Revenant – Crystal Desert