Guild Wars 2

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

CETheLucid.3964:

Hm. I was expecting some manner of BS or doublespeak. Maybe I’ll pry it out of you yet!

You sure do post a lot about a game you find stale and boring. I find that’s a trend with folks who think as you do.

There’s something you like about this game, something that brings you back here, or else you wouldn’t bother.

Friends? Or do you really just enjoy the forums that much?

Little secret: I’m not actually playing the game right now either. Do not think too negatively of this: talking about the game and playing the game are two different things. Sometimes, people want to do only one or the other. For many reasons, really.

It’s not the secret you think it is. I’ve been taking notes for a while now and following where it goes based on the content of the posts in question.

Positive or negative is subject to the data overall, not how I ‘should’ take something. That would introduce a bias. I prefer it remain objective.

You’re not alone or unique in your thoughts, but that should be obvious.

You’re right on this point though: talking about the game and playing the game are indeed two different things.

No argument from me on that. The implications of that are fairly self-evident.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Being able to always get maximum benefit from the team play mechanics is not good design whether that happens at close or at greater ranges.

why does everyone assume that everything people say is absolute.

Because in many cases it is? Because many posters in the endless debate about zerker, stacking, etc. break down to, “Stacking needs to die in fire!”

I dont think any one has a problem with the idea, that stacking together at key times can be advantagous. it makes sense. The problem is when for the whole fight you are going to go in stand in one place, absorb dmg you can avoid, to win 90% of the boss fights.

Short story, stacking at times is great, and synergistic, stacking as the way to deal with everything, and eating avoidable Skills, and standing in one place even when its not to your advantage. And not needing to see or react to what the enemy is doing in order to win is lame.

As you can see by the above line I’ve culled from the post that you quoted, I am not in favor of 100% uptime for team-play mechanics. I just don’t see that forcing people to solo range or solo melee regularly is better than what we have now.

Boss phases can be used regardless of stacking. AI can be tweaked to prevent overly simplistic encounters. What I’m against are suggestions like, “Make all boss melee attacks cleave, and one-shot the entire party if they’re stacked.”

yes, i agree untelegraphed 1 shot aoe dmg by bosses on a regular basis would be stupid, but im sure everyone knows that. That wouldnt just kill stacking, it would just make melee unfeasible 90% of the time, and not allow support of melee charachters.

maha.7902:

And now remember that your average player isn’t going to have the DPS to endure the burning because they’re not optimised. People need to stop trying to think of obstacles for optimised teams, because all you’re doing is amplifying the difficulty for pugs and ramping it up to 11 while giving speed runners like a 2 second speed bump with these “anti-stacking mechanics”.

They don’t NEED to endure the burning if they lack DPS – all they have to do is Not Stand In The Fire, which means they Can’t Stack (Because that amplifies the damage). A group of average players with enough sense to not stand still when red rings open under them are at no risk from this mechanic. Only those too stupid/belligerent/obstinate to break up their stack and get their kittens out of the fire have any risk of taking nontrivial damage from this sort of anti-stacking mechanic. Any player with an ounce of mobility probably wouldn’t even notice the fires are targetted.

And I’m for making all enemy, not just boss, attacks cleave. I’m not for them one-shotting targets (At least no more than their current attacks one-shot people. Vitality and Toughness help with not being One-Shotted, if you have the sense to not facetank in Zerker Gear) – just that they are equally damage to stacked groups as they are to individuals. Then, people who don’t stack don’t have a problem. … I’m not even talking about a total arc cleave – even just a small band the size of the attack box that hits everyone within it would work.

If a boss stabs a point in space, and five people are occupying that space, all five should take equal damage as though they were the only target. Just standing two feet to either direction would stop from being stabbed.

Mob Design

I feel one of the biggest issues with mob design is that they’re not built like players. Players have access to more tools and such in comparison to mobs:

Players

• 10+ skills at any point (with a few exceptions)
• 5+ skills on weaponswap
• Traits
• Combo Fields + Finishers
• Upgrades (sigils and runes)
• Dodge
• Unique class mechanics
• Revive

Mobs

• Far less skills available
• No traits
• No weapons
• No bonuses (sigils and runes)
• No dodge in the majority of cases
• Unique mechanics don’t have as much ‘presence’
• No revive

Now, times the tools the player has by 5 (since, you know, 5 players), and the amount of counter-ability available to players far, far outweighs what is available to the mob.

I feel mobs should be built like a player. Give them 10 skills minimum. Give them Traits and Dodge. Give them a unique mechanic. Heck, if there’s other mobs / the boss fight consists of more than one boss, give them the ability to combine their abilities and revive each other.

Mechanics

I feel there should be a simple rule:

For every tool in the game, there should be a counter and a situation where it’s especially effective. By tool I’m referring to a tactic, mechanic or skill.

This applies to both players and mobs.

For example:

Stacking

• Counter: Players fight on a platform. Stacking for more than 3 seconds results in the mob digging and bursting up from below, destroying that part of the platform. Stacking too much will result in no platform being left.
• Effective: Mob has a skill that deals reduced damage and reduced fear duration for every player it hits. Let’s call this skill Fear of the Dark, simply because I like Iron Maiden.

Dodging

• Counter: Mob has a skill that deals deals damage to Endurance.
• Effective: Mob has a skill that sets all skills onto a cooldown if not avoided. The chain would have the mob use Condition Removal and Stability before using this move so, unless you strip it, you can’t interrupt it.

Boons:

• Counter: Mob has a trait where they deal increased damage based on how many boons they have on them. Boon Stripping / Theft / Corruption counters this. Mob has a skill that steals boons and deals damage based on this.
• Effective: In pretty much any situation.

And so on.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I’ve almost never seen players stacked that closely together. It might indeed be the norm, but you couldn’t prove this by me. That said, ANet seems to feel that visual clutter and massive particle blur is visually appealing, so I’m not sure that visual presentation in combat is a big concern to them.

Massive particles and visual effects fall under a drastically different category from character models clipping. I mean, have you seen the back of Asuran Eyeballs? I still have nightmares about those things… Anyway, the thing with big particle effects is that they serve a function by themselves. The large particle effects signify actions taken by enemies/friends, and with a lack of cast bars, it is important to visually signify actions. The particle effects are also meant to signify potency in attacks, so that a player can visualize the impact of their techniques.

The clutter and blinding lights appear to be a side effect of bad foresight: Anet didn’t really test this with 20+ players on the screen, or test this with all players cluttered in melee range, or considered that should players be meleeing with no passive defenses, that particle effects can obscure tells. Of course, they attempted to rectify this with an effects reducing option and better AoE field indicators, so this serves as an admission by Anet that no, gigantic blasts of bright light are not the best design choice.

Constantly bringing up particle effects is a deflection, though. The existence of a different problem doesn’t suddenly make the current problem go away.

Again, I don’t see tons of this. Maybe it’s because I avoid the pseudo speed-runs practiced by the PuG community. This is an AI aggro issue, and could be ameliorated by changing the way mob following works — without introducing mechanics to force players to not use teamplay mechanics.

…

What I would find unsatisfying would be the game denying me the opportunity — as a matter of course — to benefit my teammates via the use of skills that: block, reflect, provide fury, provide might, provide blind, provide stability, etc. How does free-lancing actually generate a greater sense of personal contribution than using skills that actually contribute more than just one’s personal DPS?

…

Particle blur makes it much more difficult for me to see tells than proximity. Ommv.

Never, at any point in any of this, is my intent to discourage teamplay mechanics. I’m not sure exactly when this devolved into the false dilemma of disorganized chaos / stacking, but there is more out there than just the extremes.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Mob Design

I feel one of the biggest issues with mob design is that they’re not built like players. Players have access to more tools and such in comparison to mobs:

Players

• 10+ skills at any point (with a few exceptions)
• 5+ skills on weaponswap
• Traits
• Combo Fields + Finishers
• Upgrades (sigils and runes)
• Dodge
• Unique class mechanics
• Revive

Mobs

• Far less skills available
• No traits
• No weapons
• No bonuses (sigils and runes)
• No dodge in the majority of cases
• Unique mechanics don’t have as much ‘presence’
• No revive

Now, times the tools the player has by 5 (since, you know, 5 players), and the amount of counter-ability available to players far, far outweighs what is available to the mob.

I feel mobs should be built like a player. Give them 10 skills minimum. Give them Traits and Dodge. Give them a unique mechanic. Heck, if there’s other mobs / the boss fight consists of more than one boss, give them the ability to combine their abilities and revive each other.

Mechanics

I feel there should be a simple rule:

For every tool in the game, there should be a counter and a situation where it’s especially effective. By tool I’m referring to a tactic, mechanic or skill.

This applies to both players and mobs.

For example:

Stacking

• Counter: Players fight on a platform. Stacking for more than 3 seconds results in the mob digging and bursting up from below, destroying that part of the platform. Stacking too much will result in no platform being left.
• Effective: Mob has a skill that deals reduced damage and reduced fear duration for every player it hits. Let’s call this skill Fear of the Dark, simply because I like Iron Maiden.

Dodging

• Counter: Mob has a skill that deals deals damage to Endurance.
• Effective: Mob has a skill that sets all skills onto a cooldown if not avoided. The chain would have the mob use Condition Removal and Stability before using this move so, unless you strip it, you can’t interrupt it.

Boons:

• Counter: Mob has a trait where they deal increased damage based on how many boons they have on them. Boon Stripping / Theft / Corruption counters this. Mob has a skill that steals boons and deals damage based on this.
• Effective: In pretty much any situation.

And so on.

I love. Traits, skills and combos to mobs!

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Never, at any point in any of this, is my intent to discourage teamplay mechanics. I’m not sure exactly when this devolved into the false dilemma of disorganized chaos / stacking, but there is more out there than just the extremes.

The problem I see is that the way teamplay mechanics work, you’re either in proximity and can use them, or not in proximity and you can’t. The more encounter mechanics discourage team mechanic use, the more free-lancing you’ll see. This is human nature.

At one point i thought that if buff ranges were increased to something like the old Aegis skill in GW, that would reduce the demand to stay in proximity. Except melee would still do more damage. Also, in second thought, it does not seem like a good idea to reduce the amount of skill needed to benefit from those team mechanics. However, I believe that’s exactly what a lot of people want. I believe you’re not in that subset, but I’m not sure other posters see that.

Think about it. The only way that gear other than zerker, and tactics other than stacking are going to be accepted in the PuG meta is if other options are about as efficient. Yet, that is exactly what I see people asking for over and over again, whether they realize it or not.

Interesting suggestions. It should also be mentioned that with these proposed changes that dungeons would substantially increase in time to complete. Therefore rewards would also have to be altered and appropriate anti fatigue systems implemented. The idea of running a high level fractal or arah p1/4 with these changes could lead to gamers sitting taking potentially hours before they get up and drink water, stretch etc. These considerations have also been noted by countries like China that seek to create a healthier gaming environment by limiting how long a person can actually remain logged into a online game.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Dodging in this game is probably the biggest flaw of them all. Nothing funny about that.
A free way to neglect any kind of damage every few seconds at any place no matter of character build? Good luck designing any engaging content with this mechanic in game…

I’m not surprised you hate mechanics that allow squishy characters to avoid most of the damage.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

And while I am a tank at heart and used to hug walls for over 15 years, it is still different in GW2. It is just terribad game design.

haviz.1340:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Dodging in this game is probably the biggest flaw of them all. Nothing funny about that.
A free way to neglect any kind of damage every few seconds at any place no matter of character build? Good luck designing any engaging content with this mechanic in game…

I’m not surprised you hate mechanics that allow squishy characters to avoid most of the damage.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

And while I am a tank at heart and used to hug walls for over 15 years, it is still different in GW2. It is just terribad game design.

But don’t you see that melee stacking, zerker gear meta, the uselessness of toughness and vitality, the etablishment of one shot mechanics, and many more flaws are the direct result of the ablility of every single class no matter of specialisation to avoid all incoming damage very frequently?

I have been playing MMO’s as melee DD (HoX in AoC, Bounty Hunter in AC2), and still every encounter had a benefit of variation.

The problem of GW2 PvE is that you have 8 classes, but in the end, it feels like every class plays the same with a bit of gimmicky utility.

So what is the point? Stacking is not the problem, it is the result of the combat system in GW2, that narrows down the gameplay to the most simplistic approach to group content I have ever seen in a MMO.

On the other hand, I like the fast paced combat while soloing or doing open world stuff (yeah I know, that’s for noobs and stuff), it is just that I really prefer a multiplayer game to feel like every dungeon is made for a group and not for a bunch of individuals that are just doing their own stuff till the boss is dead.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

But don’t you see that melee stacking, zerker gear meta, the uselessness of toughness and vitality, the etablishment of one shot mechanics, and many more flaws are the direct result of the ablility of every single class no matter of specialisation to avoid all incoming damage very frequently?

I have been playing MMO’s as melee DD (HoX in AoC, Bounty Hunter in AC2), and still every encounter had a benefit of variation.

The problem of GW2 PvE is that you have 8 classes, but in the end, it feels like every class plays the same with a bit of gimmicky utility.

So what is the point? Stacking is not the problem, it is the result of the combat system in GW2, that narrows down the gameplay to the most simplistic approach to group content I have ever seen in a MMO.

On the other hand, I like the fast paced combat why soloing or doing open world stuff (yeah I know, that’s for noobs and stuff), it is just that I really prefer a multiplayer game to not feel like every dungeon is made for a group and not for a bunch of individuals that are just doing their own stuff till the boss is dead.

I would have agreed partially with you if you hadn’t used that many hyperboles.

haviz.1340:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

But don’t you see that melee stacking, zerker gear meta, the uselessness of toughness and vitality, the etablishment of one shot mechanics, and many more flaws are the direct result of the ablility of every single class no matter of specialisation to avoid all incoming damage very frequently?

I have been playing MMO’s as melee DD (HoX in AoC, Bounty Hunter in AC2), and still every encounter had a benefit of variation.

The problem of GW2 PvE is that you have 8 classes, but in the end, it feels like every class plays the same with a bit of gimmicky utility.

So what is the point? Stacking is not the problem, it is the result of the combat system in GW2, that narrows down the gameplay to the most simplistic approach to group content I have ever seen in a MMO.

On the other hand, I like the fast paced combat why soloing or doing open world stuff (yeah I know, that’s for noobs and stuff), it is just that I really prefer a multiplayer game to not feel like every dungeon is made for a group and not for a bunch of individuals that are just doing their own stuff till the boss is dead.

I would have agreed partially with you if you hadn’t used that many hyperboles.

Are my posts over the top some times (well probably most of the time)? Sure.
It doesn’t change the problematic topics I try to approach with a QA point of view.
Being clear what is wrong in my opinion. Giving examples. If possible giving ideas how to fix it.

You “would have partially agreed” with what I said, if I just expressed myself differently tells me, that in the end, you have partially agreed.

Otherwise you would have not written this answer.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

But don’t you see that melee stacking, zerker gear meta, the uselessness of toughness and vitality, the etablishment of one shot mechanics, and many more flaws are the direct result of the ablility of every single class no matter of specialisation to avoid all incoming damage very frequently?

Parts of this I agree on, even if I don’t agree that they’re neccesserily bad. For example, zerker vs gear with toughness and vitality is all about risk and reward. In exchange of sacrificing some defense, you get higher damage output.

However, I disagree that the establishment of one-shot mechanics and stacking are down to every class having dodge.

One shot mechanics, stacking (as well as high health pools) are more of a result of the bosses being built completly different from players. If a boss had the same amount of skills as a player, then the fight wouldn’t need to use one-shot mechanics as the boss would have more skills to use, would be able to attack more frequently thus reducing the effectiveness of dodge.

Not only this, stacking negates pretty much every boss mechanic in the game, while bosses don’t have a tool to negate stacking. If bosses had a mechanic that countered constant stacking, it’d be different.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

On the other hand, I like the fast paced combat while soloing or doing open world stuff (yeah I know, that’s for noobs and stuff), it is just that I really prefer a multiplayer game to feel like every dungeon is made for a group and not for a bunch of individuals that are just doing their own stuff till the boss is dead.

Isn’t that what happens in content with pre-defined roles as well?

Each person is focused on their own role, that they’re playing a different game, if you will, to everyone else. The only unified thing that people have to pay attention to is unique encounter mechanics which, more often than not, don’t actually have anything to do with the roles themselves.

love ur writing style

i agree with the ideas u have also i thing stacking should be a tactic at some moments in fight and a no go in other.

I think the answer is in the past
sry for saying that but look wow
3 phase fights

Lupicus almost got it right and the fireshaman did it almost perfect.

I say let the old dunguons alone and make 10 man raids which need more then just stacking and wow that will be cool without WOW

Stacking does not negate boss mechanics, TheDaiBish.

maha.7902:

Stacking does not negate boss mechanics, TheDaiBish.

Yeah, I worded that wrong.

More along the lines of it reduces the effectiveness of boss mechanics by a large amount, while most bosses themselves don’t have a way to reduce the effectiveness of stacking.

It doesn’t reduce the effectiveness of boss mechanics. In fact it makes cleaving attacks more potent since it hits the entire party.

In parties without anyone to carry, they stack in corners, don’t know why they’re doing it, wipe and then wonder why they wiped.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Are my posts over the top some times (well probably most of the time)? Sure.
It doesn’t change the problematic topics I try to approach with a QA point of view.
Being clear what is wrong in my opinion. Giving examples. If possible giving ideas how to fix it.

You “would have partially agreed” with what I said, if I just expressed myself differently tells me, that in the end, you have partially agreed.

Otherwise you would have not written this answer.

To explain what I meant:

• toughness and vitality are far from being useless. They are less efficient.
• one shot mechanics is a myth constantly being repeated on those forums. A vast majority of bosses cannot one shot you, especially when you use “useless” defensive gear, utilities and weapons.
• every single class cannot avoid all incoming damage that frequent, let alone when you disregard specialisations. Can you do that on a necro or a squishy ele?

The problematic topic exists because the game needs changes but most of the proposals don’t consider issues that they might introduce.

I agree with OP. Haven’t had time to read the other posts, but I think that stacking is a boring and particle-effect nightmare that needs to go, but not because it’s inherently bad, but because boss fights need to be more dynamic. This simple strategy works because the bosses are simple and slow. Mechanics like the ones OP suggested would go far to force players to spread out, but can additionally be added upon simply to make the fights more dynamic. It’s one thing to force everyone to spread out, but I think it should go further; standing on your spot and AAing isn’t fun either. More frequent attacks for less damage (like you get in WvW/PvP) would be a nice start. It’d mean smarter play, determining which attacks to eat and which to mitigate, as well as be more exciting than “see telegraph > count to 2 > dodge” every 15 seconds.

Yesterday I slept on my keyboard when doing SE path 1. I woke up one hour later with the guys chatting in TS, I was like “woo omg, the dungeon!” and they were like “dude, we’ve done all runs now”.

If the mobs continue to be dumb and un-organized, the players will continue to be dumb and un-organized.

Players will only improve to meet new challenges if these new challengers are hard enough.

I made a thread about this before:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Important-Suggestion-Mob-Unit-AI/

At the highest difficulty, the players cannot even spam skills non-stop. If they waste all their skills on the first wave of mobs, the players’ skills will be on cool down during the attack by the second wave of mobs. etc

Players now got to THINK if they want to beat the mobs. They got to think about everything, including WHEN to use skills. Resources, including skills, are limited. And the mobs are smart enough to push the players to their limits.

And TBH, the players must split up into different “divisions”, if they want any chance of beating these new intelligent mobs. Instead of one mindless group of 75 players, they need to organize themselves into 5 “divisions” of 15 players that are in mutual support of each other.

I support the OP’s POV on presentation. Let’s say I want to show my friend how awesome GW2 is. What do you think my friend want to see? A “mindless” group of 75 players? Or 5 groups of 15 players each, organized in Rome Total War fashion?

In short: If GW2 wants to impress my friend, then make GW2 more Rome Total War like in their world events. Force the players to think, and use tactics. If not the players should be defeated.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The solutions to problems should make the game more interesting, and not just limit how people can play. I can’t stress this point enough. Now, if you aren’t going to argue my undeniably more-awesome-than-yours wisdom on matter, or if you don’t want to praise my gigantic wisdomly wisdom, then I’d like to make this a thread where people can post and critique their own ideas on how to make enemies more interesting in a manner that rewards dynamic placement and activity with bosses.

Because if we can’t come up with ideas, then how do we expect Anet to come up with ideas?

I can see how you might think the majority of players want this but you might be surprised at the actual reality.

To think that the challenge loving, dynamic boss dueling people that post stuff like this on the forums are the majority of the player base is really not a wise idea.

Most players want their easy and clear " stack here and press 1 to win" status quo just fine.

What you’re proposing is basically new ways to add more challenge into the game.

That in itself is not a bad idea but you have to factor in the fact that most players want rewards much more than they want challenge. So how do you fix it?

You can’t up the challenge without upping the reward because then reward-oriented players ( most of them) will abandon the now “unfarmable” content and move on to something else ( see dungeons post reward-update patch).

So up the reward – you can’t really do that either because dungeon rewards generate gold out of thin air directly creating inflation in the game ( which has already hit pretty high numbers as it is).
As I see it Anet are really desperate for gold sinks ( see Ascended crafting &co) and I doubt adding more gold into the game will help.

So how can this be fixed? The answer is simple – introduce the mechanics good Arachnid ( and others) have asked for but in a limited way. Give us something akin to hard mode in GW1.

The casual, average, reward-driven PUG won’t really be able to do these but he can still farm his usual dungeon farm routine so he’s still content. Moreover he’s got something to strive for and aspire – getting good so he can do Hard Mode.

The hardcore, challenge-driven player will team up with guildies ( or other players like himself) and tackle the content – being well rewarded for their effort ( ideally with tokens that can be turned in for unique skins or ascended gear thus negating the issue of inflation)

If this method were implemented I truly believe the entire player base could benefit.

Both the reward-driven majority and the challenge-driven minority would now have content that is satisfactory to their needs.

I hope a dev is keeping an eye on this thread.

I don’t necessarily agree that stacking is an issue that needs fixing, but if it does, there are pretty simple solutions. Just have bosses deal a debuf that stacks for everyone within 5 yards or something. The debuf can be reduced damage, increased cast times, dealing direct damage or anything. If enough bosses did these, we’d soon spread out.

Lankybrit.4598:

I don’t necessarily agree that stacking is an issue that needs fixing, but if it does, there are pretty simple solutions. Just have bosses deal a debuf that stacks for everyone within 5 yards or something. The debuf can be reduced damage, increased cast times, dealing direct damage or anything. If enough bosses did these, we’d soon spread out.

this is a bad solution, the problem is not that people ever stack, its that thats the only thing people do. Its also pretty cheesy, id rather solutions be fight mechanics, and enemy skills and abilities rather than arbitrary debuffs with no context, avoidability, or ways of dealing with.

i guess what some people say is right, it would be very easy to misunderstand peoples concerns with stacking, and think that the goal is simply to make it extremely bad to stand next to people. thats not really the goal.

Lankybrit.4598:

I don’t necessarily agree that stacking is an issue that needs fixing, but if it does, there are pretty simple solutions. Just have bosses deal a debuf that stacks for everyone within 5 yards or something. The debuf can be reduced damage, increased cast times, dealing direct damage or anything. If enough bosses did these, we’d soon spread out.

New condition: B.O.

Graphic on target: Stink waves over head

Effect: Players surrounding target are interrupted and perform the “I ate too many candy corns” puking emote after 3 stacks are applied

I like the last boss in HotW P1. Rampages around the area with spinning attack prevents constant stacking. It’s not a genius fight, but sure as hell more interesting than stacking against a wall, chain blasting fire fields, and going thru a meta build rotation.

Ginva is anti-range, anti-melee, chills you and has 360 degrees cleave on his attacks, and you can’t even tell the difference between the auto and his pull.

No, it’s not a hell of a lot more interesting.

Seras.5702:

I like the last boss in HotW P1. Rampages around the area with spinning attack prevents constant stacking. It’s not a genius fight, but sure as hell more interesting than stacking against a wall, chain blasting fire fields, and going thru a meta build rotation.

this boss is, imo pretty boring, and tedious. This isnt just about learning the fight, i thought so the first time i did HOTW.

Perhaps people should stop thinking about random easy anti stacking mechanics, and start thinking about interesting reactive fights.

the key isnt just to make people not stack, it is to make fights more interesting and reward players for paying attention and working together at the right times.

phys.7689:

Seras.5702:

I like the last boss in HotW P1. Rampages around the area with spinning attack prevents constant stacking. It’s not a genius fight, but sure as hell more interesting than stacking against a wall, chain blasting fire fields, and going thru a meta build rotation.

this boss is, imo pretty boring, and tedious. This isnt just about learning the fight, i thought so the first time i did HOTW.

Perhaps people should stop thinking about random easy anti stacking mechanics, and start thinking about interesting reactive fights.

the key isnt just to make people not stack, it is to make fights more interesting and reward players for paying attention and working together at the right times.

Seras.5702:

It’s not a genius fight, but sure as hell more interesting than stacking

I never said it was amazing. But it’s a fight that at least requires more than just pressing your 1-0 keys and the occasional dodge.

Having said that, I absolutely think we need more interesting fights. Those that require active cooperation, strategy, and possibly damage control. I’d love to see fights in dungeons with fail scenarios that lead to alternate subsequent phases, not just suppressing add spawns. I’d love to see bosses with skills/styles more akin to player professions. Quicker but lighter attacks with high movement and condition clearing. Wouldn’t that be fun for condition classes? Knowing the boss can cleanse would mean condition classes have a purpose, to constantly reapply those DoTs.

Any way you choose, the fights need more than 1 simple change or added mechanic to make them more dynamic and reactive. I don’t have the ultimate solution; that’s not my job. Unfortunately, I’m not very optimistic, given Anet’s recent update making kitten near everything in the world simpler. Dumbing down leveling and the difficulty of open world mobs is a bad sign in my book.

Seras.5702:

phys.7689:

Seras.5702:

I like the last boss in HotW P1. Rampages around the area with spinning attack prevents constant stacking. It’s not a genius fight, but sure as hell more interesting than stacking against a wall, chain blasting fire fields, and going thru a meta build rotation.

this boss is, imo pretty boring, and tedious. This isnt just about learning the fight, i thought so the first time i did HOTW.

Perhaps people should stop thinking about random easy anti stacking mechanics, and start thinking about interesting reactive fights.

the key isnt just to make people not stack, it is to make fights more interesting and reward players for paying attention and working together at the right times.

Seras.5702:

It’s not a genius fight, but sure as hell more interesting than stacking

I never said it was amazing. But it’s a fight that at least requires more than just pressing your 1-0 keys and the occasional dodge.

Having said that, I absolutely think we need more interesting fights. Those that require active cooperation, strategy, and possibly damage control. I’d love to see fights in dungeons with fail scenarios that lead to alternate subsequent phases, not just suppressing add spawns. I’d love to see bosses with skills/styles more akin to player professions. Quicker but lighter attacks with high movement and condition clearing. Wouldn’t that be fun for condition classes? Knowing the boss can cleanse would mean condition classes have a purpose, to constantly reapply those DoTs.

Any way you choose, the fights need more than 1 simple change or added mechanic to make them more dynamic and reactive. I don’t have the ultimate solution; that’s not my job. Unfortunately, I’m not very optimistic, given Anet’s recent update making kitten near everything in the world simpler. Dumbing down leveling and the difficulty of open world mobs is a bad sign in my book.

yeah, unless they are about to tell us about some sort of hard mode, or new difficulty progression system, they have essentially with the last patch made it less likely the average player will be able to handle any sorts of complex mechanics. The average player is going to gain the average amount of skill required to succeed, if the skill required to succeed is low, they will maintian an average low level skill set.

there is an even bigger jump in challenging experiences between a new level 80 and their most difficult content in game now.

Stacking is just the by-product of broken mechanics.

Defiance in its current incarnation is clunky, and mechanics that ‘need to be interrupted lest wipe potentially occur’ are hard to pull off when the varied stacks of defiance ruins timing CC, which in turn would allow for some more complex playing. The only instances where I could think of CC being relevant to a fight in the current state of GW2 is a mob that after every X% toggles a timed channel, and a single hard CC breaks it after defiant stacks are gone.

FGS and Stacking benefit each other mutually, but aren’t always needed for one another. You can still Rush a boss down against the wall even without stacking for it (those are fun groups).

A big highlight pointed out is that there is great benefit in boons in stacking them, might is likely the biggest offender in how boons will cause stacking to almost always negate many mechanics the boss has. A big thing to note is that the dodge mechanic does in fact make and break how well your group can rush through a dungeon, and slightly factors in the success of Stacking.

If you really want to hinder stacking, you don’t gut it hard, you discourage it but still allow for it. Here are some of my thoughts on how to deal with stacking save the most skilled groups:

- Mechanic of a Power-Based Mob: Active Dodging/Blocking and Weakness – Mob will anticipate and dodge frequent attacks, as well as apply constant weakness to prevent enemies from dodging his own attacks.
> I was pleasantly happy to see some of the Toxic mobs from Tower of Nightmares actually do some dodges (albeit, not many were in line with my most brutal attacks). Make that more common, dodging is a huge factor in this game’s design, I want bosses to block or dodge. Though, if you introduce too much mitigation you have to compensate. If I have a mob with a shield that reflects projectiles and will parry, dodge, etc…make him unable to have Defiant stacks!
>Weakness, if used properly, can be potent enough to stop stackers from dodging the next attack they have to avoid! I don’t see Weakness enough, it cuts endurance gain by half and also drastically reduces damage output. However, for the good stacking group, the best response would be to inflict a hard CC, rotating amongst the group while the rest flat-out blow up the power mob!

- Mechanic of a Condition-Based Mob: Chaining Corrupt Boon – Mob will channel a dark ray at one person, turning boons they have into conditions, this effect will apply in an AoE around said person for about 300-600 range. Also does direct damage, and perhaps the mob can Epidemic the conditions at the end of the channel of say…4-5 seconds.
> Mechanic will negatively impact stacking unless the group does something about it actively, only one person needs to not stack to prevent the whole group from suffering…let’s say very potent conditions. It discourages stacking, but does not prevent it if you play it right.

- General Mechanics that discourage but do not prevent stacking:
Potent cleaves every X seconds, Damage Shielding (like Mark T-B34RC3’s buffing turrets, except negating damage outright unless someone channels the object in question.), Exploding Debuff on someone….etc.

The big thing though, that really ought to be mentioned, is that while it is nice to dream of a bit more engaging encounters, the reward for the risk isn’t quite up to snuff. The Triple Golem Fight in SE P1 has impressive mechanics, but the fact that all the mobs can be pulled to die almost immediately depresses me. YET, another problem with that fight is that the damage from the golems is extremely high, with the merged mechanics breakingly-powerful for any normal attempts. The fight could be a bit more fulfilling if the health of the mobs were raised slightly and the damage output they put out reduced drastically.

I’m not exactly sure when this became about the zerker meta…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

But don’t you see that melee stacking, zerker gear meta, the uselessness of toughness and vitality, the etablishment of one shot mechanics, and many more flaws are the direct result of the ablility of every single class no matter of specialisation to avoid all incoming damage very frequently?

Actually no.

Frequency of evasion is all about perspective. While you say that the problem is that players evade too frequently, I say the problem is that enemies don’t attack frequently enough. I mentioned this in another thread awhile ago about the zerker meta. Amongst the three posts of literary gold that I produced for all to be in awe over, the short and sweet “problem” I diagnosed is that enemies don’t attack frequently enough. While the players were given skills and techniques appropriate for fighting other players, the mobs in the game were designed for an extremely basic MMO.

That said, the issue of stacking is independent of the zerker meta. Heals, defensive boons, and defensive utilities all work in an AoE. If the game were a cleric/dire/soldier meta, players will still stack for the exact same reasons I listed in the first post. Getting rid of dodges isn’t going to make all of that go away. I don’t think it even should go away, since from a) to i) none of those are intrinsically a “flaw”.

^ Having enemies that attack frequently or more quickly would also make Confusion much more valuable as a condition in PvE. Something that would make my Confusion-specced Mesmer VERY happy.

Fundamentally, I don’t think that stacking is a bad thing either (although see my note below). What I would like to see, however, is more boss design that requires different tactics apart from stacking.

For example, General Zadarosky(sp?) in SE P3 is an excellent example of where stacking is the intended strategy. Having the players spread out means a greater chance of running into each other’s fire fields and taking damage.

On the other hand, what about a boss that has an unblockable lifesteal attack? The more players stack up, the worse it’ll be because you’re just giving the boss much more healing every attack he lands. In that scenario, players MUST spread out if they want to have any hope of beating him.

Bosses with dangerous auras (like Warden #4 for the Marionette battle) also discourage melee/stacking while giving ranged characters a chance to shine.

Stacking isn’t bad, but let ranged characters also have their time in the spotlight.

Note: I DO think that the FGS single spot tactic is an exploit. It’s making the skill do much damage than it would otherwise normally do, which I feel is not what the designers intended.

Stacking is just a symptom. The problem is that most enemies are NOT dangerous so you can “tank” them long enough even with a full glass build.

Either getting hit must be punished more or time to kill has to increase.

I would personally reduce amount of passive buffs, increase stack caps for buffs/conditions and tweak some high-end damage builds. Getting very high damage should require some effort (not just pre-buffing + few skills). This should mainly affect time to kill for high end teams preventing insta-gibs.
I would punish getting hit. Auto attacks should have severe effects either giving strong debuffs (knockdown, immobilize) or/and buffing the boss. Then add extremely strong telegraphed or triggered attacks.

For example make Spider Queen inflict Immobilize on normal hit, then his web attack should spawn Spiders on hit and finally make poison attack work on melee range. You could still stack but must remove Immobilized and move to another spot or use interrupts.

Or a boss which applies bleeding when it hits / gets hit. If anyone reaches X stacks it frenzies and constantly charges the player. You could still stack but would need heavy condition removal.

Or a boss like champion Abomination in CoE but with less telegraphed attacks. You could still stack but would need people able to dodge.

Zaxares.5419:

^ Having enemies that attack frequently or more quickly would also make Confusion much more valuable as a condition in PvE. Something that would make my Confusion-specced Mesmer VERY happy.

Fundamentally, I don’t think that stacking is a bad thing either (although see my note below). What I would like to see, however, is more boss design that requires different tactics apart from stacking.

For example, General Zadarosky(sp?) in SE P3 is an excellent example of where stacking is the intended strategy. Having the players spread out means a greater chance of running into each other’s fire fields and taking damage.

On the other hand, what about a boss that has an unblockable lifesteal attack? The more players stack up, the worse it’ll be because you’re just giving the boss much more healing every attack he lands. In that scenario, players MUST spread out if they want to have any hope of beating him.

Bosses with dangerous auras (like Warden #4 for the Marionette battle) also discourage melee/stacking while giving ranged characters a chance to shine.

Stacking isn’t bad, but let ranged characters also have their time in the spotlight.

Note: I DO think that the FGS single spot tactic is an exploit. It’s making the skill do much damage than it would otherwise normally do, which I feel is not what the designers intended.

Why should characters with basically zero risk sitting at 1,200 range be rewarded?

Why shouldn’t they? If they are contributing to the fight and not afking in a corner, why shouldn’t they be rewarded?

And besides, my post was about introducing more bosses where fighting them in melee is discouraged. Imagine a boss with an aura around them that constantly inflicts three stacks of Bleed/Poison/Torment per second and a heavy hitting melee cleave attack; kiting him and fighting at range would be the safest strategy. Fighting this guy in melee would be tantamount to suicide unless you were ridiculously tanky.

What makes sitting at 1200 “Zero Risk?”

… though, honestly, I’d love to see ranged weapons have their ranges doubled or so, because they feel too short, especially given how quickly and effectively melee can close the gap.

I don’t want bosses that discourage melee combat. Discouraging stacking is one thing, Making one of the most fun and engaging forms of combat (Melee, due to the sheer number of awesome and dynamic options it brings, as opposed to ranged’s “I shoot it again”) “tantamount to suicide” would be terrible.

Why shouldn’t they? If they are contributing to the fight and not afking in a corner, why shouldn’t they be rewarded?

You do poor damage, pull aggro from melee-ers and don’t support your team. No, they shouldn’t be rewarded for being a complete detriment to the party. Bad play should never be rewarded.

And besides, my post was about introducing more bosses where fighting them in melee is discouraged. Imagine a boss with an aura around them that constantly inflicts three stacks of Bleed/Poison/Torment per second and a heavy hitting melee cleave attack; kiting him and fighting at range would be the safest strategy. Fighting this guy in melee would be tantamount to suicide unless you were ridiculously tanky.

Three stacks of torment/bleed a second and hard hitting cleave attacks? Do you even think these ideas through? That’s not discouraging melee, that’s just flat out preventing it, and there’s no need for that at all. All this would do is encourage five warrior groups starting the fight with berserker’s stance melee then just afk pewpewing with longbows until the stance goes off cooldown (if it lasts that long).

What makes sitting at 1200 “Zero Risk?”

The fact that (unless unlucky) your team eats all of the attacks and aggro while you just chill in the back and dodge every now and then so you can feel like you’re actually doing something.

So, do you pull aggro from meleers, or is sitting at range “no risk”? You can’t have it both ways.

Frankly, I like the ability to pull enemies off of an overwhelmed ally with ranged attacks.

Of course… ranged DPS could use a boost.

So, do you pull aggro from meleers, or is sitting at range “no risk”? You can’t have it both ways.

Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. When you don’t it’s just afk’ing, when you do, well you might as well have just gone in melee.

Frankly, I like the ability to pull enemies off of an overwhelmed ally with ranged attacks.

What if you were just in melee and you just rallied them off a mob, res’d them or just killed the boss/mob faster?

Zaxares.5419:

Why shouldn’t they? If they are contributing to the fight and not afking in a corner, why shouldn’t they be rewarded?

And besides, my post was about introducing more bosses where fighting them in melee is discouraged. Imagine a boss with an aura around them that constantly inflicts three stacks of Bleed/Poison/Torment per second and a heavy hitting melee cleave attack; kiting him and fighting at range would be the safest strategy. Fighting this guy in melee would be tantamount to suicide unless you were ridiculously tanky.

Ranged gameplay is already too easy, let’s not make it encouraged more than it is. Challenging aspects of the game should be different than kiting while permanently crippling/chilling/immoblizing bosses.

maha.7902:

What if you were just in melee and you just rallied them off a mob, res’d them or just killed the boss/mob faster?

Yeah, delete all ranged weapons (and rangers)! Power to the melee master race!
#UtterlySerious

Rangers have sword plus offhands and gs, not sure why they would have to be deleted.

haviz.1340:

Rangers have sword plus offhands and gs, not sure why they would have to be deleted.

Because reasons. Sword AA sucks.

Ok, then fix for sword aa and deletion of mainhand axe, longbow and shortbow.

haviz.1340:

Ok, then fix for sword aa and deletion of mainhand axe, longbow and shortbow.

Deal. But the rangers have to be renamed to meleers, so noone gets confused.

Just tell people Aragorn was a ranger.

haviz.1340:

Just tell people Aragorn was a ranger.

Or that the ranger archetype is based around knowledge of nature, and not fighting exclusively at range.

Apart from more diverse boss mechanics, i think what is needed is a bit of randomization in their tactics. Whatever new mechanic is invented and implemented, give it a week and there will be an effortless method of doing it. The only difference between a “good” player and a “noob” is if they read a guide or if they need to be instructed before the encounter (or after the 2nd wipe). With a bit of randomization in their diverse attacks and defense, encounters would be less predictable, more reactionary, more interesting. If the tactics themselves are well-telegraphed (and not just an icon with a wall of text jumping left and right with the stacks of conditions coming and going), it would be easier for skillful but newbie players to adapt to it.