Guild Wars 2

#4: WHAT ARE THE SOLUTIONS and WHY ARE YOU SAYING THERE SHOULD BE SOLUTION WHEN YOU SAY STACKING ISN’T A PROBLEM!!11!1!NEEEEAAAAAHHHH

The thing with stacking being counter-intuitive to standard game design and feeling awkward and all that is still a bit of an issue. This isn’t just an issue of fun, but an issue of presentation: if I show someone I want to play some videos on guild wars 2, then watching a bunch of players gather into an indecipherable blob and then smash a gigantic bear head against a wall… it just isn’t a good look.

The other thing about solving this issue is that there’s very little you can do without going all third world dictator on how people play the game. The bosses in this game aren’t too big. Take Agent Bela from Arah p2, for example. She’s just a regular asura, so if all the players go to melee her, it is night impossible to not stack.

So, for solutions, I propose more interesting boss mechanics, and more diverse mob AI.

For example: If there is a mob that likes to attack at range, give this mob a flag where they will always try to be at least 600 units away from any player, and treat this as a hard line that mob will refuse to cross. That way, when they come upon enemies stacking in a corner, they will orbit at a distance to get in range, instead of just running up to the players.

Another idea: make a boss that has a directionally dependent damage reduction: all direct damage from the front is reduced by 90%, due to heavy armor or a big shield or whatever. Then, players will have to encircle the boss, so that only one player gets reduced damage while the other 4 get full damage.

Another idea, give a boss an extremely dangerous and frequent melee cleave attack, but make it so he alternates targets after every use. That way, players will have to surround the boss, because otherwise his attacks will plow through nearly any defense.

A good example in-game is the wraiths from Arah p4, where you have to stand in different circles to attack the boss. If you get more enemies that require spacing, like a gigantic plant monster who’s buds only open for a moment at different corners of the map, but need to be attacked so there isn’t a map wide heavy DoT, then you can encourage being in different directions.

The player locked damage fields that certain bosses use (Golems in Sorrows Embrace and Fire Shaman) are also decent examples, but their attacks can be dodged. Another idea is a boss that constantly streams lightning to players and polarizes them, so that if oppositely charged players are nearby (radius = 300), they’ll receive a high DoT. That way, if this is on a fairly large sized boss, players can alternate which sides they melee.

The solutions to problems should make the game more interesting, and not just limit how people can play. I can’t stress this point enough. Now, if you aren’t going to argue my undeniably more-awesome-than-yours wisdom on matter, or if you don’t want to praise my gigantic wisdomly wisdom, then I’d like to make this a thread where people can post and critique their own ideas on how to make enemies more interesting in a manner that rewards dynamic placement and activity with bosses.

Because if we can’t come up with ideas, then how do we expect Anet to come up with ideas?

Basically just add abilities that force people out of stacking positions. However Anet hasn’t really touched their dungeons in a rather long time, not sure if this is because they’re planning a big overhaul or don’t really care.
Also I think this probably belong in the dungeon forum.

I considered putting this in the dungeon forum, but there is stacking in other places of the game. There, it is more affectionately called “zerging” due to how many players are usually involved, but you’ll also see these tactics in living world content. There can also be stacking in non-dungeon content if the devs make more of that, which they probably will.

The ideas for mob design aren’t limited to dungeons, either. I can easily see the distance flag and directional dependent damage in the overworld.

I’d rather have all NPC attacks be cleaving at point-of-impact, just like all/most player attacks seem to be – If you’re all in the same place, you all get hit equally. There don’t have to be particularly devastating, dedicated “Stack Breakers”. Having anyone who’kittenbox is in the same space as an attack box get hit is a simple, intuitive fix to the problem that puts NPCs on the same footing as PCs. Ranged weapons should only pierce a distance equal to the projectile’s range, though, unless full piercing is a trait of the boss. It might still result in player “Clustering” for boon and res purposes, but they’d probably actively avoid trying to be in the exact same spot to avoid focused but still-omnihitting enemy attacks.

I do like that ranged limit idea as well.

:) Well written post Blood Red Had me smiling-
And a lot of really good points.
One thing iv’e noticed is that some of the newer designs does have mechanics involved that mean no stacking.
Marionette open world. Likely the best Open world boss design so far. mechanics means auto split in 5 lanes. and again split in platform: and even more.. the mini champs mechanics on platforms meant no stacking. – So it is possible to make interesting working wb without boring zerging.

Some fractals: like the icebrood thing where one has to pour molten metal on it .

- thing is. developers just have to make the encounters be more active. . multiple activity that needs to be handled..
And less – if you didn’t dodge that exact emote- you are dead.- or you have to have a Guard, Mesmer etc to use that exact power-

For example: If there is a mob that likes to attack at range, give this mob a flag where they will always try to be at least 600 units away from any player, and treat this as a hard line that mob will refuse to cross. That way, when they come upon enemies stacking in a corner, they will orbit at a distance to get in range, instead of just running up to the players.

Chasing a mob around in circles is not “interesting”, and if that’s “diverse mob AI” then I want my mob AI as boring as possible. That would turn dungeons in to even more of a chore. It would just mean removing a DPS utility and chaining immobilises.

Another idea: make a boss that has a directionally dependent damage reduction: all direct damage from the front is reduced by 90%, due to heavy armor or a big shield or whatever. Then, players will have to encircle the boss, so that only one player gets reduced damage while the other 4 get full damage.

Literally all that is is a damage throttle. Poor idea.

Another idea, give a boss an extremely dangerous and frequent melee cleave attack, but make it so he alternates targets after every use. That way, players will have to surround the boss, because otherwise his attacks will plow through nearly any defense.

Chain aegis/dodge, burst away. There are already bosses with powerful melee cleave attacks.

And now we’re back to square one. Once again, poor ideas offered to counter stacking and no reason besides aesthetics identified for stacking even being a problem.

I’ve seen only once a stack spot where my camera bugged or zoomed into polygons. The only I can think of is the old PUG spot for Kholer in AC (it was sometimes bugging out).

The only argument against it is aestetics of a RP level : “I am a character of a fantasy world and I am fighting dangerous creatures of terrific dungeons, I want it to look epic.”

To maha – Add blind to that and dodge becomes mandatory (but i’m not sure how blind works on cleaves).

Makes the entire attack (including any cleaves) miss, if I’m not completely mistaken. Anyway, I fully agree with maha – like all the other stacking threads, this one is just full of useless and nonsensical pseudo-solutions for a non-existing problem.

I’ll also suggest that corners give crowd control and missile defense. In fact corners are better than class skills at gathering enemies together. Walls can be popular since you can use movement skills and dodges into a wall but stay where you are.

Stacking isn’t a problem if you only want to play the game as an exchange of your personal time for online gold. By stacking you spend less time for the same gold. If you want to play the game for your personal entertainment then surely stacking in a corner (with limited skills and awful visuals) is some of the lowest entertainment the game can give you.

maha.7902:

For example: If there is a mob that likes to attack at range, give this mob a flag where they will always try to be at least 600 units away from any player, and treat this as a hard line that mob will refuse to cross. That way, when they come upon enemies stacking in a corner, they will orbit at a distance to get in range, instead of just running up to the players.

Chasing a mob around in circles is not “interesting”, and if that’s “diverse mob AI” then I want my mob AI as boring as possible. That would turn dungeons in to even more of a chore. It would just mean removing a DPS utility and chaining immobilises.

Another idea: make a boss that has a directionally dependent damage reduction: all direct damage from the front is reduced by 90%, due to heavy armor or a big shield or whatever. Then, players will have to encircle the boss, so that only one player gets reduced damage while the other 4 get full damage.

Literally all that is is a damage throttle. Poor idea.

Another idea, give a boss an extremely dangerous and frequent melee cleave attack, but make it so he alternates targets after every use. That way, players will have to surround the boss, because otherwise his attacks will plow through nearly any defense.

Chain aegis/dodge, burst away. There are already bosses with powerful melee cleave attacks.

And now we’re back to square one. Once again, poor ideas offered to counter stacking and no reason besides aesthetics identified for stacking even being a problem.

basically, all your saying, is it is the enemies job to be easily killed while you make minimal efforts.

Chasing enemies suck! – so the mob should just stand there and take my dmg
dont throttle my dmg – so the enemy should not in any way try to avoid my dps

essentially your perfect boss was the target in lions arch, except with a low HP pool.

and lets be honest, thats why people stack
its easier when done properly and makes the fight extremely predictable.
Also they have no desire for a interesting fight, they just want the rewards faster.

IMO, stacking is the reason why the DEVs don’t ever give us new dungeon content.

It trivializes all dungeon content. It also makes fights incredibly boring. Stack in that corner, burn down the boss.
The DEVs seem to not be able to work around it, so they just don’t introduce more dungeons. Seriously, one path replacing an older one in what, 19 monthes now?

And while I am a tank at heart and used to hug walls for over 15 years, it is still different in GW2. It is just terribad game design.

basically, all your saying, is it is the enemies job to be easily killed while you make minimal efforts.

What I’m saying is that if “fixing” stacking means making fights extremely tedious where mobs run around in circles, don’t do it. Bearbow rangers and GS mesmers knocking mobs out of stacks annoys people enough, now imagine if they just ran away themselves. The game would basically become CC wars 2 where pugs take a guardian using hammer/staff to perma-CC running mobs and organised groups just chain CC with their usual weapons or use a different utility. It honestly isn’t any more “interesting”.

dont throttle my dmg – so the enemy should not in any way try to avoid my dps

Do you not see that “reduce damage of one guy while everyone else does normal damage” is a completely dull mechanic? The boss has exactly the same mechanics, just one dude does less damage. How does that solve anything? Do you think the ferocity nerf made combat more interesting? They’re both throttles, and they both did/do nothing.

essentially your perfect boss was the target in lions arch, except with a low HP pool.

My perfect boss is a boss with multiple phases, each with their own mechanics which change dependent on whether people are at range or not and with multiple attack skills that can be blocked, reflected or dodged. It is a boss with no damage throttles, and doesn’t run away from you, in fact it chases you.

Who am I?

IMO, stacking is the reason why the DEVs don’t ever give us new dungeon content.
It trivializes all dungeon content. It also makes fights incredibly boring. Stack in that corner, burn down the boss.

Stack Alphard, don’t dodge, don’t use reflect.

Stacking does not trivialise content.

maha.7902:

Stack Alphard, don’t dodge, don’t use reflect.

Stacking does not trivialise content.

will never reply to this part

maha.7902:

basically, all your saying, is it is the enemies job to be easily killed while you make minimal efforts.

What I’m saying is that if “fixing” stacking means making fights extremely tedious where mobs run around in circles, don’t do it. Bearbow rangers and GS mesmers knocking mobs out of stacks annoys people enough, now imagine if they just ran away themselves. The game would basically become CC wars 2 where pugs take a guardian using hammer/staff to perma-CC running mobs and organised groups just chain CC with their usual weapons or use a different utility. It honestly isn’t any more “interesting”.

dont throttle my dmg – so the enemy should not in any way try to avoid my dps

Do you not see that “reduce damage of one guy while everyone else does normal damage” is a completely dull mechanic? The boss has exactly the same mechanics, just one dude does less damage. How does that solve anything? Do you think the ferocity nerf made combat more interesting? They’re both throttles, and they both did/do nothing.

essentially your perfect boss was the target in lions arch, except with a low HP pool.

My perfect boss is a boss with multiple phases, each with their own mechanics which change dependent on whether people are at range or not and with multiple attack skills that can be blocked, reflected or dodged. It is a boss with no damage throttles, and doesn’t run away from you, in fact it chases you.

Who am I?

IMO, stacking is the reason why the DEVs don’t ever give us new dungeon content.
It trivializes all dungeon content. It also makes fights incredibly boring. Stack in that corner, burn down the boss.

Stack Alphard, don’t dodge, don’t use reflect.

Stacking does not trivialise content.

Running away and having to control the monster would be a good mechanic, for SOME bosses/enemies some of the time.
Yes its annoying, but the enemy is supposed to be trying not to get killed. A well executed running enemy, you get a thrill when you force them to take your burst. The thrill is catching them, and coordinating well enough that you get the best burst possible.
note this is not EVERY boss.
Also the game is actually supposed to be using CC to control the monsters, that was their initial plan, which apparently never happened. I dont think the boss tactics are better because CC is irrelevant, i think they are worse.

The reduced dmg from a certain side mechanic gives more depth, because it makes it so the players have to adapt to what the enemy is actually doing. If he is facing you, your goal is to survive, and keep him facing you, so other people can do more dmg, if he turns from you, your goal is to do as much dps as possible.

Mechanics that make you pay attention to the enemy, and try to manipulate and capitilize on what the enemy do are engaging. Mechanics that make you change your focus from offense to defense, or something else are engaging.

As far as multiphase fights, while i like the idea, i dont think it should always be tied to phases, for example, the facing you less dmg mechanic, would make people use different tactics multiple times, even during different phases.

Stacking is fine in theory, but the enemies play into it way to easily. Stacking can be the optimal condition, but if thats the case the enemies shouldnt ALWAYS allow you to easily maintain your optimal case.

Stooperdale.3560:

Stacking isn’t a problem if you only want to play the game as an exchange of your personal time for online gold. By stacking you spend less time for the same gold. If you want to play the game for your personal entertainment then surely stacking in a corner (with limited skills and awful visuals) is some of the lowest entertainment the game can give you.

Is that all it is to you some days? I don’t understand your type. The game is obviously intended to be that ‘personal entertainment’, but you separate it into two things.

So some days it’s a chore/job for online money, and other days it’s entertainment? I’m not saying that’s ‘wrong’, but it’s weird and opposed to itself I would think.

I mean when you’re playing it purely for online currency in exchange for your time, how do you then turn around and say ‘this is entertainment’?

Is it a Spongebob complex? Do you enjoy working at the Krusty Krab? Do you consider it an accomplishment? A point of pride?

Be that the case, wouldn’t all your effort to that end be rendered rather redundant when you can simply purchase hours, maybe days of ‘work’ in a matter of seconds?

Then you could play for fun all the time? Or do you like to ‘work’ for it? Is that the ‘fun’ for you?

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

So I take it you PvP exclusively?

Two ideas of yours strike me as good ones for future combat changes:
- Polarized debuffs: Asura fractal’s final boss has a golem that uses this attack. He puts positive and negative charges randomly in every player, if different charges are close you start losing HP little by little therefore avoiding player stacking (unfortunately it just plays a little role and the champion can be easily killed).

- Orbitting around players instead of meleeing them: Only possible if LoS is available, we can trick mobs but they can’t trick us. If I use Arcane Wave (big area of effect) I can hit mobs on the other side of the wall, but if the boss has such skill they obey LoS instead of “radius of sight”, if they don’t follow the stack (for certain defeat) they can’t hit us.

We could have a new radius/distance mechanics, call it “Area Awareness” in which the game checks if LoS isn’t possible for this range-based boss for a short period (4sec), if so it gains a special shield “Angered” or something of the like, then goes melee and receives much less damage (half?). Or magically teleports the entire party to random (or pre-set) locations evenly spread out whenever LoS isn’t possible. Or curse them with a dangerous DoT that increases damage the farther they are.

Just throwing random ideas…

There’s a reason why in most hard encounters in World of Warcraft the area is huge, round/rectangular and there are no objects for LoSing.

maha.7902:

For example: If there is a mob that likes to attack at range, give this mob a flag where they will always try to be at least 600 units away from any player, and treat this as a hard line that mob will refuse to cross. That way, when they come upon enemies stacking in a corner, they will orbit at a distance to get in range, instead of just running up to the players.

Chasing a mob around in circles is not “interesting”, and if that’s “diverse mob AI” then I want my mob AI as boring as possible. That would turn dungeons in to even more of a chore. It would just mean removing a DPS utility and chaining immobilises.

So… you’re saying have to bring different utilities other than DPS ones is a bad thing? I don’t mean to sound rude, but that’s the way I perceived your response to that.

There’s already mechanics in game to stop stacking, but they either just aren’t strong enough or you can just dodge to avoid them. For example, one of the bosses in SE has an attack where he puts fire AoEs beneath every party member’s feet, but it’s just nowhere near strong enough and the fight inst long enough with full zerkers to stop people just soaking the damage and burn him up.

CETheLucid.3964:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

So I take it you PvP exclusively?

Nah. I very rarely even log on anymore because I find this game stale and boring.

I just thought about a “vampire”-like boss! It would use blood-ish HP draining skills, and if LoS isn’t possible he teleports to the stack, grabs a player then teleports back slowly draining their HP. (God, I conceptualized this so much awesomely! lol)

Stooperdale.3560:

If you want to play the game for your personal entertainment then surely stacking in a corner (with limited skills and awful visuals) is some of the lowest entertainment the game can give you.

What if I told you…. bursting down enemies quickly and efficiently in a stack is enjoyable in itself? Because it totally is.

Jahroots.6791:

Stooperdale.3560:

If you want to play the game for your personal entertainment then surely stacking in a corner (with limited skills and awful visuals) is some of the lowest entertainment the game can give you.

What if I told you…. bursting down enemies quickly and efficiently in a stack is enjoyable in itself? Because it totally is.

It is not.

Pvp/Wvw speaking,if they introduced skills or condis that will “Stun 5 enemies next to you in an xx range every 2 seconds for 16 seconds” or “apply xx condis to people around you for the next xx seconds”" Meaning if im in a stack and someone will put one of these condi’s on me,it means i have to move out of the stack so the condis or stuns wont transfer to people next to me.
small example,but i think you understand what i mean,it will force people to go out of stacks so condis and stuns wont be transfered to other people.The effects wont do anything on the player itself but only to people close by that particular player.

Caedmon.6798:

Pvp/Wvw speaking,if they introduced skills or condis that will “Stun 5 enemies next to you in an xx range” or “apply xx condis to people around you for the next xx seconds”" Meaning if im in a stack and someone will put one of these condi’s on me,it means i have to move out of the stack so the condis or stuns wont transfer to people next to me.
small example,but i think you understand what i mean,it will force people to go out of stacks so condis and stuns wont be transfered to other people.The effects wont do anything on the player itself but only to people close by that particular player.

Such mechanics already exist, there’s some boss that puts an electric burst that damages nearby allies. No need for ALL the bosses to be extremely hard, but defeating AC p3’s final boss in 6 seconds is ridiculous.

Valento.9852:

Caedmon.6798:

Pvp/Wvw speaking,if they introduced skills or condis that will “Stun 5 enemies next to you in an xx range” or “apply xx condis to people around you for the next xx seconds”" Meaning if im in a stack and someone will put one of these condi’s on me,it means i have to move out of the stack so the condis or stuns wont transfer to people next to me.
small example,but i think you understand what i mean,it will force people to go out of stacks so condis and stuns wont be transfered to other people.The effects wont do anything on the player itself but only to people close by that particular player.

Such mechanics already exist, there’s some boss that puts an electric burst that damages nearby allies. No need for ALL the bosses to be extremely hard, but defeating AC p3’s final boss in 6 seconds is ridiculous.

Yeah but thats pve though.I was speaking about the pvp aspect of wvw since the stacking and zerging is all they tend to do.And currently there doesnt exist anything like this that will demote the zerging and stacking aspect.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

CETheLucid.3964:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

So I take it you PvP exclusively?

Nah. I very rarely even log on anymore because I find this game stale and boring.

Hm. I was expecting some manner of BS or doublespeak. Maybe I’ll pry it out of you yet!

You sure do post a lot about a game you find stale and boring. I find that’s a trend with folks who think as you do.

There’s something you like about this game, something that brings you back here, or else you wouldn’t bother.

Friends? Or do you really just enjoy the forums that much?

Caedmon.6798:

Valento.9852:

Caedmon.6798:

Pvp/Wvw speaking,if they introduced skills or condis that will “Stun 5 enemies next to you in an xx range” or “apply xx condis to people around you for the next xx seconds”" Meaning if im in a stack and someone will put one of these condi’s on me,it means i have to move out of the stack so the condis or stuns wont transfer to people next to me.
small example,but i think you understand what i mean,it will force people to go out of stacks so condis and stuns wont be transfered to other people.The effects wont do anything on the player itself but only to people close by that particular player.

Such mechanics already exist, there’s some boss that puts an electric burst that damages nearby allies. No need for ALL the bosses to be extremely hard, but defeating AC p3’s final boss in 6 seconds is ridiculous.

Yeah but thats pve though.I was speaking about the pvp aspect of wvw since the stacking and zerging is all they tend to do.And currently there doesnt exist anything like this that will demote the zerging and stacking aspect.

I see. Haven’t really thought about WvW since PvE by itself already kittenes me off enough. I honestly wonder if there is a dungeon team at ArenaNet, or if they care for dungeons at all.

Valento.9852:

It is not.

To be fair, I should have used more objective language. Stacking can be enjoyable in itself. Better? Because I enjoy it, personally. As do most of the dungeon runners I’ve come across. The stack itself kind of sucks, visually, but the efficiency is very satisfying. Especially if you’ve experienced the alternatives.

Blood Red makes some good suggestions though, but as I’ve stated in other threads, more challenging mechanics will not add lasting value to dungeons. It’ll be interesting the first few times, then players will try to find the fastest and easiest way to get it over with. The methods proposed would be excruciatingly tedious unless (a)rewards are increased and/or (b) enemies’ HP pools are significantly reduced.

Caedmon.6798:

Valento.9852:

Caedmon.6798:

Pvp/Wvw speaking,if they introduced skills or condis that will “Stun 5 enemies next to you in an xx range” or “apply xx condis to people around you for the next xx seconds”" Meaning if im in a stack and someone will put one of these condi’s on me,it means i have to move out of the stack so the condis or stuns wont transfer to people next to me.
small example,but i think you understand what i mean,it will force people to go out of stacks so condis and stuns wont be transfered to other people.The effects wont do anything on the player itself but only to people close by that particular player.

Such mechanics already exist, there’s some boss that puts an electric burst that damages nearby allies. No need for ALL the bosses to be extremely hard, but defeating AC p3’s final boss in 6 seconds is ridiculous.

Yeah but thats pve though.I was speaking about the pvp aspect of wvw since the stacking and zerging is all they tend to do.And currently there doesnt exist anything like this that will demote the zerging and stacking aspect.

WvW != PvP

It’s basically that PK area in PvE MMO’s of old. Same thing (zerging, ganking, stacking) happened in those places too.

At least with objectives that vastly reward your worlds game, this kind of play is especially reserved for those objectives.

Roaming and small groups have their place in such a dynamic.

Anet should provide more roaming/small group objectives in WvW, and more server oriented zerg play (castle/garrison ones) for large scale objectives as well.

But if we have to pick a focus, roaming/small group objectives should get a bit more love since it’s the one that seems to be lacking ATM.

It’s delicate balance to be sure. Because if there are too many rewarding small group/roaming objectives, you might hurt your large scale grandiose zergy events.

And no one wants that either. Options are nice, but not at the expense of others who enjoy the grandiose large scale ones.

Sometimes I feel like one or sometimes the other. Other people live for one or the other exclusively.

I want the freedom to enjoy both whenever I want, and I want those who only enjoy one or the other to be able to enjoy their preference.

I don’t want to take away from their game, but to enrich it; and for those that like a bit of everything to be enriched.

To enjoy this awesome freedom of choice in having many awesome things to do.

Just wanted to jump in here really quick and say bravo! Well done. This should be stickied somewhere (once you fix a couple of those typos)

Also, I wanted to add that one very interesting anti-stacking mechanic was added in the final battle with Scarlet and her holograms, that most I think overlooked.

• PbAoE (player centered) Damaging Condition
  One of the three holograms (green I think) would occasionally put a strange debuff/condition on the player giving them a visually displayed small AoE ring around them. This AoE followed the player around damaging all those they were near. This ‘encouraged’ the player to break off from the stack so as not to wipe the group. I thought this was a great mechanic.

An Idea for a stack breaking mechanic I’ve had floating around for awhile:

• Directional Life Transfer
  Another mechanic that I haven’t seen yet that would make for more interesting less ‘stacky’ fights is a directional (cone AoE) life transfer ability. The more targets hit by the life transfer the more health is sucked back into the mob, thus again ‘encouraging’ a more reactive and positionaly aware strategy to the fight.

Judging by the new mechanics that ArenaNet have been adding to the game it seems they are thinking along the same lines here. Hopefully with more interesting encounters this will breathe new life into ones that have been unintentionally reduced to stacking in a corner and glitching AI.

If those guys from ArenaNet don’t know what to do anymore, they could do this:

Suggestion:
Simply add Charackter- and Obstacle-collision.

Impact:
If you Fiery Rush against a wall, your character would stop, because he collides with the wall. This would solve all problems with stacking and zerging simply because it wouldn’t be possible anymore.

Precautions:
Ofcourse, some things have to be tweaked, you oughtn’t be able to block paths for other players, as example. Also the bank in each city has to be tweaked, so all players can get to their own safe and events, which meant to be completed by zergs, have to be readjusted.

Problems that would be solved:

Stacking in dungeons
People complained about the no-skill tactic of stacking in dungeons. That wouldn’t be possible anymore.

Zerging in PvE
People complained about championfarming and zerging as new Metaevent-meta.
This change would solve the problem.

Zerging in WvW
Some people have complained about not being able to hold a fort against an enemy zerg of 100+ men. Well, those zergs would be really hard to coordinate with this change.

This would break every boss who needs to be killed with more than 10 men, WvW, AoE’s and a lot of other things. But it would be fun and I think it would improve the game.

Combined with an overhauled AI, this change would make stacking impossible.

I don’t see how character collision would stop PvE or WvW zergs. It would just make them spread out a bit more. Large scale zerging is already pure chaos for the average player as is, due to frame rate drops and particle effects. Moreover, I think this would be game-breaking in a few ways. Think of the implications for res’ing downed players for starters.

Also, it’s collision detection that allows FGS rush to work in the first place. Lol.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

As a ‘casual’ PvEer, I find this post extremely offensive and narrow-minded. The game’s content should be fun on its own merits, and dungeons are designed to be non-casual anyway.

And… other casual players, from what I’ve seen, are least likely to be bothered by the OP’s suggested changes – they don’t stack, and tend to react to whatever the heck the enemies are doing on their own. Enemy runs away? Chase it down/stun it/Torment it, then kill it. Enemy isn’t taking damage from a direction, roll around until you can hit it, or flank it. And, they probably don’t consider that enemy attacks are single-target, given that their own usually aren’t (Unless they’re ranged).

And, initially, I read the minimum distance thing not as a “Run away” mechanic, but a “Don’t approach.” A “Run away” mechanic would be too simple to lock down unless it has a way to stun/immob, then jump back to range. Just hit it with Torment or bleeds, then run around chasing it saying “I’m not touching you!” while conditions and ranged allies take it out.

And for those who play simply to grind gold, instead of actually hunt for engaging and fun content – a better strategy is to go out, get a job that pays real money, and spend that money on gems, then buy gold with that. It’s a FAR more efficient means of getting gold/hour.

Jahroots.6791:

I don’t see how character collision would stop PvE or WvW zergs. It would just make them spread out a bit more. Large scale zerging is already pure chaos for the average player as is, due to frame rate drops and particle effects. Moreover, I think this would be game-breaking in a few ways. Think of the implications for res’ing downed players for starters.

I want to see how you would coourdinate 100+ men who a trying to get into a tower.
Or how to you want to fight the tri-worm or tequatl if you can’t stack on his feet anymore.

Jahroots.6791:

Also, it’s collision detection that allows FGS rush to work in the first place. Lol.

???… If we would have proper collision detection in the game your fiery rush would stop once you hit a wall.

Collision detection won’t stop the zergs, it would just limit the way players position themselves. Co-ordination is usually the opposite of what happens in zergs – There’s a handful of players who do the important stuff (turrets at Teq, Dropping siege in WvW) and everyone else just runs around and smashes things.

But I have noted that it could potentially be game-breaking. Is that what you want? Because that’s how you get ragequitters.

CETheLucid.3964:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

CETheLucid.3964:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

So I take it you PvP exclusively?

Nah. I very rarely even log on anymore because I find this game stale and boring.

Hm. I was expecting some manner of BS or doublespeak. Maybe I’ll pry it out of you yet!

You sure do post a lot about a game you find stale and boring. I find that’s a trend with folks who think as you do.

There’s something you like about this game, something that brings you back here, or else you wouldn’t bother.

Friends? Or do you really just enjoy the forums that much?

I liked the game for the first few months, actually. But ANet decided to take it in a different direction so it’s just not for me though I do keep tabs on what’s going on.

But anyway, yes, I do like posting on forums. It gives me something to do when I’m bored at work.

Sartharina.3542:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

As a ‘casual’ PvEer, I find this post extremely offensive and narrow-minded. The game’s content should be fun on its own merits, and dungeons are designed to be non-casual anyway.

And… other casual players, from what I’ve seen, are least likely to be bothered by the OP’s suggested changes – they don’t stack, and tend to react to whatever the heck the enemies are doing on their own. Enemy runs away? Chase it down/stun it/Torment it, then kill it. Enemy isn’t taking damage from a direction, roll around until you can hit it, or flank it. And, they probably don’t consider that enemy attacks are single-target, given that their own usually aren’t (Unless they’re ranged).

And, initially, I read the minimum distance thing not as a “Run away” mechanic, but a “Don’t approach.” A “Run away” mechanic would be too simple to lock down unless it has a way to stun/immob, then jump back to range. Just hit it with Torment or bleeds, then run around chasing it saying “I’m not touching you!” while conditions and ranged allies take it out.

And for those who play simply to grind gold, instead of actually hunt for engaging and fun content – a better strategy is to go out, get a job that pays real money, and spend that money on gems, then buy gold with that. It’s a FAR more efficient means of getting gold/hour.

Our opinions differ and that’s fine. There’s nothing “offensive” about disagreeing with someone.

You collide with the wall and keep running on the spot. If there was no collision detection, you’d run through it and into the Abyss (no seriously, I once fell through the map in CoE. Not during a Fiery Rush, though.) I think what you’re really suggesting is that Fiery Rush ends when you collide with something.

For those of us that actually play GW2 and have constructive ideas relating to the topic please post these. This is a great place to brainstorm ideas which could improve the game for all of us.

For those who do not play the game and therefore have no constructive input, well I would respectfully ask that you find something else to do.

Jahroots.6791:

Collision detection won’t stop the zergs, it would just limit the way players position themselves. Co-ordination is usually the opposite of what happens in zergs – There’s a handful of players who do the important stuff (turrets at Teq, Dropping siege in WvW) and everyone else just runs around and smashes things.

But I have noted that it could potentially be game-breaking. Is that what you want? Because that’s how you get ragequitters.

I don’t know what kind of players you have on your world but the zergs I participated in were, for the very most part, good organized.
Like I wrote, boss encounters have to readjusted to be less of a zergfest and damagetest but more of an organized fight. This does also apply to keeps in WvW.
And how exactly would it be gamebreaking?

Dark Catalyst.1028:

CETheLucid.3964:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

CETheLucid.3964:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This is an ultra casual game focused on looks and armor skins, so of course the PvE is going to be shallow and unrewarding. Some people like the game just the way it is, OP. No need to make the game “harder” because it’s not the right environment for it.

When I want my PvE fix, I go to games which do it better.

So I take it you PvP exclusively?

Nah. I very rarely even log on anymore because I find this game stale and boring.

Hm. I was expecting some manner of BS or doublespeak. Maybe I’ll pry it out of you yet!

You sure do post a lot about a game you find stale and boring. I find that’s a trend with folks who think as you do.

There’s something you like about this game, something that brings you back here, or else you wouldn’t bother.

Friends? Or do you really just enjoy the forums that much?

I liked the game for the first few months, actually. But ANet decided to take it in a different direction so it’s just not for me though I do keep tabs on what’s going on.

But anyway, yes, I do like posting on forums. It gives me something to do when I’m bored at work.

Goes with what I’ve gathered so far. We disagree of course, but I can respect your honesty about it all. Hope you find what you’re looking for out there.

Jahroots.6791:

You collide with the wall and keep running on the spot. If there was no collision detection, you’d run through it and into the Abyss (no seriously, I once fell through the map in CoE. Not during a Fiery Rush, though.) I think what you’re really suggesting is that Fiery Rush ends when you collide with something.

In other terms, collision detection. >.>

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I don’t know what kind of players you have on your world but the zergs I participated in were, for the very most part, good organized.
Like I wrote, boss encounters have to readjusted to be less of a zergfest and damagetest but more of an organized fight. This does also apply to keeps in WvW.
And how exactly would it be gamebreaking?

C’mon man, ‘organized zerg’ is kind of an oxymoron. Also, if you find that most zergs are well organized, then why are you suggesting gameplay mechanics to counter them? Why do you want boss encounters to require more organization?

It could be game breaking because it would make res’ing downed players difficult, bordering on impossible in some situations.

Running away and having to control the monster would be a good mechanic, for SOME bosses/enemies some of the time.
Yes its annoying, but the enemy is supposed to be trying not to get killed. A well executed running enemy, you get a thrill when you force them to take your burst. The thrill is catching them, and coordinating well enough that you get the best burst possible.
note this is not EVERY boss.

It’s not thrilling.

The reduced dmg from a certain side mechanic gives more depth, because it makes it so the players have to adapt to what the enemy is actually doing. If he is facing you, your goal is to survive, and keep him facing you, so other people can do more dmg, if he turns from you, your goal is to do as much dps as possible.

Lupicus already does this without making the player facing him do zero damage. Your goal is to survive by dodging kicks and swipes while the rest of the party do whatever (until he switches aggro). You don’t need a damage throttle. Other examples – Mossman, archdiviner, svanir shaman in snowblind fractal. Just to reiterate – damage throttles aren’t necessary, and this “person holding aggro needing to survive” already exists.

Stacking is fine in theory, but the enemies play into it way to easily. Stacking can be the optimal condition, but if thats the case the enemies shouldnt ALWAYS allow you to easily maintain your optimal case.

And they don’t. Do FOTM 49 and try to mindlessly stack the shaman in snowblind, mossman, and archdiviner. It honestly just doesn’t work, you need to play it quite defensively with solid reflexes in case they switch aggro and smack you for like 15k damage.

—

So… you’re saying have to bring different utilities other than DPS ones is a bad thing? I don’t mean to sound rude, but that’s the way I perceived your response to that.

It’s bad because it’s pointless. “I guess I’ll take Throw Bolas and now kill this mob 3 seconds slower” is not a good reason for making me switch utilities.

There’s already mechanics in game to stop stacking, but they either just aren’t strong enough or you can just dodge to avoid them. For example, one of the bosses in SE has an attack where he puts fire AoEs beneath every party member’s feet, but it’s just nowhere near strong enough and the fight inst long enough with full zerkers to stop people just soaking the damage and burn him up.

And now remember that your average player isn’t going to have the DPS to endure the burning because they’re not optimised. People need to stop trying to think of obstacles for optimised teams, because all you’re doing is amplifying the difficulty for pugs and ramping it up to 11 while giving speed runners like a 2 second speed bump with these “anti-stacking mechanics”.

—

Problems that would be solved:
Stacking in dungeons
People complained about the no-skill tactic of stacking in dungeons. That wouldn’t be possible anymore.

Nope, try again. We will continue to stack.

Once again, people trying to identify a problem that doesn’t exist and offering poor solutions.

Jahroots.6791:

C’mon man, ‘organized zerg’ is kind of an oxymoron. Also, if you find that most zergs are well organized, then why are you suggesting gameplay mechanics to counter them? Why do you want boss encounters to require more organization?

Because at the moment, a huge zerg can’t be stopped. Defending a keep is unrewarding and it becomes even more unsatisfying if a giant meatball rolls over your defenses. As for more organized content: I want the players to do more things than just standing at one point and facerolling the keyboard.
At tequatly, some of the players could build and defend additional siege, some could get a sniper rifle with 3000+ range, so they can hit tequatl. Some others kill all the fingers.

It could be game breaking because it would make res’ing downed players difficult, bordering on impossible in some situations.

Just increase the amount of health one player can restore. Fixed.

maha.7902:

Problems that would be solved:
Stacking in dungeons
People complained about the no-skill tactic of stacking in dungeons. That wouldn’t be possible anymore.

Nope, try again. We will continue to stack.

Once again, people trying to identify a problem that doesn’t exist and offering poor solutions.

If neither you, nor your enemy could stay in one place, simply because you wont be able to walk into another players anymore, you wouldn’t be able to stack. Period. You could still hug the enemy but it wont help that much. That’s why I’ve suggsted an AI overhaul to punish players who try to just hug the enemy to death.

In addition to that: swinging a sword against a wall will cancel the skill because of the obstacle collision I’ve suggested.

maha.7902:

Running away and having to control the monster would be a good mechanic, for SOME bosses/enemies some of the time.
Yes its annoying, but the enemy is supposed to be trying not to get killed. A well executed running enemy, you get a thrill when you force them to take your burst. The thrill is catching them, and coordinating well enough that you get the best burst possible.
note this is not EVERY boss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBtFWy-ccTk

It’s not thrilling.

The reduced dmg from a certain side mechanic gives more depth, because it makes it so the players have to adapt to what the enemy is actually doing. If he is facing you, your goal is to survive, and keep him facing you, so other people can do more dmg, if he turns from you, your goal is to do as much dps as possible.

Lupicus already does this without making the player facing him do zero damage. Your goal is to survive by dodging kicks and swipes while the rest of the party do whatever (until he switches aggro). You don’t need a damage throttle. Other examples – Mossman, archdiviner, svanir shaman in snowblind fractal. Just to reiterate – damage throttles aren’t necessary, and this “person holding aggro needing to survive” already exists.

Stacking is fine in theory, but the enemies play into it way to easily. Stacking can be the optimal condition, but if thats the case the enemies shouldnt ALWAYS allow you to easily maintain your optimal case.

And they don’t. Do FOTM 49 and try to mindlessly stack the shaman in snowblind, mossman, and archdiviner. It honestly just doesn’t work, you need to play it quite defensively with solid reflexes in case they switch aggro and smack you for like 15k damage.

—

So… you’re saying have to bring different utilities other than DPS ones is a bad thing? I don’t mean to sound rude, but that’s the way I perceived your response to that.

It’s bad because it’s pointless. “I guess I’ll take Throw Bolas and now kill this mob 3 seconds slower” is not a good reason for making me switch utilities.

There’s already mechanics in game to stop stacking, but they either just aren’t strong enough or you can just dodge to avoid them. For example, one of the bosses in SE has an attack where he puts fire AoEs beneath every party member’s feet, but it’s just nowhere near strong enough and the fight inst long enough with full zerkers to stop people just soaking the damage and burn him up.

And now remember that your average player isn’t going to have the DPS to endure the burning because they’re not optimised. People need to stop trying to think of obstacles for optimised teams, because all you’re doing is amplifying the difficulty for pugs and ramping it up to 11 while giving speed runners like a 2 second speed bump with these “anti-stacking mechanics”.

—

Problems that would be solved:
Stacking in dungeons
People complained about the no-skill tactic of stacking in dungeons. That wouldn’t be possible anymore.

Nope, try again. We will continue to stack.

Once again, people trying to identify a problem that doesn’t exist and offering poor solutions.

the example you show is a pretty crappy chase/fight. yeah if you make a sucky boring evading enemy it will be sucky and boring, the key is to design it in an interesting way.

As far as defense stuff, some fights do actually have mechanics for it, but you are talking about some of the more interesting fights, that are imo better fights. Point is more of this should be considered. without it having to be level 49 fractals, and without it having to instant kill you. Not good to make every fight trivial and boring except for one arah boss, and level 49 fractals.

as far as the ill just have to take throw bolas and take 3 seconds longer, thats slightly more engaging than i ll just take a banner and the enemy will sit there and die.

My whole beef with the reasoning you present is, by logical extension you want a fight where the enemy doesnt move, lets you do your max DPS and stands in the place thats going to hurt it the most.

Im just saying, thats boring.