Guild Wars 2

Originally posted by Nokaru.7831 in the Leveling as a Reward thread, I’m creating a separate thread for this gem of a post as it strikes at the heart of the problem regarding the recent changes, while clearly exposing the lack of insight and overview over the game on the company’s end.
…and also to spite all the whiteknights who are hell bent on defending the update until their last breath – come and defend DIS, kittens.

As posted by Nokaru:

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Opinions aside, there are some bold-faced objective problems that have surfaced from their questionable implementations of the NPE. For example: The “stat burst” and the “stat slump.”

• Stat Burst: With the original leveling system, players would receive a small amount of stats each time they leveled, which made their character slowly get stronger each level. With the NPE changes, after level 4 the player will received a large chunk (or “burst”) of stats every 6 levels. This was likely to make certain thresholds feel more rewarding and fun.

• Stat Slump: The problem is that the “stat burst” power did not come out of no where. The power is redistributed from prior levels. The result is that players feel weaker than they did before during certain windows of leveling. This is being remarked as the “stat slump”, which is typically 2 or 3 levels prior to each threshold.

• The problem: If a player tries to fight a creature 1 or 2 levels higher than themselves, the “stat slump” complicates things. A level 9 creature is more powerful than a level 8; but a level 9 player is not necessarily more powerful than a level 8 one. This is because the stats come in bursts for players, but gradually for monsters. As a result, players are reporting that certain Personal Story missions are feeling much harder than they used to. This is a result of the “stat slump”, which is effectively making players feel lower level than they actually are.

Furthermore, when a player levels up in an area they are downscaled in, there is a high chance they will actually become weaker. This is because downscaling will reduce their stats, and leveling up doesn’t necessarily increase them to offset it. While this has always been a possibility due to gear, it is now magnified due to base stats not increasing with each level.

This change to leveling is so fundamentally dysfunctional with how the rest of the game works that it really starts to raise questions in the confidence of ArenaNet’s actual understandings of their systems. It’s likely it isn’t the entire company’s fault though, only a few powerful (and ignorant) people.
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Also cropping out a subsequent reply by Nokaru from the same topic for relevance:
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The fix is just undoing their redistribution of stats, spacing it out evenly every level as it was before the NPE. The effect of “stat slump” and “stat burst” is a systems issue, so not many people can identify it as the problem. Most will just say, “I found this Personal Story mission hard!” and then it will be dismissed as a “L2P” issue.

If you want to read more about this, here is where I got the information from:

• Stat Slump Stuff
• Downscaling & Stat Slump
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Thank you for shining a light on this post. It has really offered quite a bit more insight into some of the issues I have been encountering (on my own and seeing mentioned by others) that I could not find a specific cause for. I had not considered this aspect as being a potential cause, which seems likely simply from a logic standpoint. I will be sure to read more into it and review the attached citations and the ensuing discussions tomorrow though.

Here’s an older topic on this issue, with a red post saying they “identified the bug” causing it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Downscaling-new-system-is-weird/first

dekou.6012:

Here’s an older topic on this issue, with a red post saying they “identified the bug” causing it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Downscaling-new-system-is-weird/first

that doesnt deal with the stat slump/burst issue, which is caused by the design of giving players big stat boosts at different level ranges, rather than gradually

phys.7689:

dekou.6012:

Here’s an older topic on this issue, with a red post saying they “identified the bug” causing it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Downscaling-new-system-is-weird/first

that doesnt deal with the stat slump/burst issue, which is caused by the design of giving players big stat boosts at different level ranges, rather than gradually

It’s an important part of the problem. The downscaling bug is something that makes the slump even worse. I don’t think the slump would be a huge deal without the bug, as you get more powerful otherwise and a +30(ish) to your stats isn’t a huge deal in open world content.

Of course, the really dumb part is that this barely matters to high level characters, while new characters and players are the ones affected the most.

This is a good observation. Previous discussions of downscaling, many in the early days of the game, sussed out the details and highlighted how keeping your armor up-to-date, even if it’s just blues, is quite important for scaling, both up (e.g. WvW) and down, throughout the leveling experience. Having gear 6-10 levels below your current one and getting scaled made you comparably weaker by significant amounts. I can imagine the effects are more notable when combined with how stat boosts are clumped together.

Each level should bring about increased character strength, not every several levels. And the game mechanics sure seem to support that, making the change a little head-scratching.

It’s probably quite different with different professions. No problems at all on my post patch ranger for example, but I could see where some professions might have more trouble than others. Rangers are just in a really good place now.

I’ve played RPGs for over 20 years, even some table top ones when I was younger. Not once have I ever encountered something like a burst of stats every several levels. The original ‘burst’ comes from finding new equipment which shows on your character, not from the natural growth of your character.

I wrote that already before the patch hit life that if they want us to give progress
for stats and traits only every x levels, than they should really remove 75% of the
levels and make lvl 20 max .. so we can again get stats / traits every level, and we
don’t run into this problem, since of cause mobs have also be changed to lvl 1-20.

Not leveling alts till this has been fixed. There needs to be balance on your characters level and the mobs levels.

On topic: I think the ideas espoused in this thread have merit. I’ve had almost no trouble leveling on my ranger at all, but they’re arguably one of the most powerful professions in the game in the open world now. They really are in a very good place.

I’m not so sure how it would go on an engie or a mesmer. I suppose I should try to level one and test the new experience with it.

I’m levelling an engineer now, and funnily enough the only times I have struggled, it was at level 11 and level 43. I wonder if this is the reason?

GuzziHero.2467:

I’m levelling an engineer now, and funnily enough the only times I have struggled, it was at level 11 and level 43. I wonder if this is the reason?

Don’t know. Do you get stats at level 12 and 44? That’s the question.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I see a sly moderator has ninja edited out my disclaimer…how sneaky indeed.

Well this bit is simply unneeded:

“…and also to spite all the whiteknights who are hell bent on defending the update until their last breath – come and defend DIS, kittens.”

I actually like the new leveling system, but because I do so, you automatically label me as a white knight… even though my posting history here and at reddit shows the exact opposite.

Stick to the subject and facts and leave out stupid attacks like this if you want to have an actual constructive thread that could affect some change.

Not quite!
You’d be a whiteknight if you’d conjure up some bogus arguments on how the original OP is wrong and how stat bursting and slumping is either fiction, or not an issue for ‘the majority’, and how the consequences for the vets are negligable and – what’s far more concerning to those who aren’t completely new to the game – clearly should not be considered a priority. I read that kind of apologist posting on a daily basis, so I usually see no need for further clarification in that regard, but there it is.

You’re free to like the update as is, but it’s a different thing alltogether when you attempt to deploy quazi arguments in an attempt to discredit those who do not share such undying love for the game.

Hopefully this will be read in time, as it is likely to be deleted eitherway cuz offtopic.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Not quite! You’d be a whiteknight if you’d conjure some bogus arguments on how the original OP is wrong and how stat bursting and slumping is either fiction, or not an issue for ‘the majority’, and how the consequences for the vets are negligable and – what’s far more concerning to those who aren’t completely new to the game – clearly not considered a priority. And I read that kind of posting on a daily basis.
You’re free to like it, but it’s a different thing alltogether when you attempt to deploy quazi arguments in an attempt to discredit those who do not share such undying love for the game.

Guess I’m not a white knight since I didn’t disagree with the original premise then. That’s good to know.

I’m currently leveling other professions to see if there are levels they feel weak at to me, and what relation those levels are to stat gains.

See, vayne’s rhetorics typically have a very clear underlying tone to them – saying the OP is not wrong/that it has merit, then countering it instantly with how there were no issues leveling a particular class. Well, I’d say the 80%+ of people who voted in your poll would probably disagree with you.

There is no doubt this is an issue, and while some have already identified it to be the likely cause of their frustration, I am certain many others have not (at least not in this very thread), and probably won’t either.

KarlaGrey.5903:

See, vayne’s rhetorics typically have a very clear underlying tone to them – saying the OP is not wrong/that it has merit, then countering it instantly with how there were no issues leveling a particular class. Well, I’d say the 80%+ of people who voted in your poll would probably disagree with you.

There is no doubt this is an issue, and while some have already identified it to be the likely cause of their frustration, I am certain many others have not (at least not in this very thread), and probably won’t either.

I didn’t counter it. I’m just happy they made my ranger stronger. Sorry if that bothers you. I never said, or even implied this wasn’t a potential problem.

It needs testing. Saying something isn’t testing it. So I’m testing it. It’s funny how you’re so fixated on me and what I say and how I say it that you’ll derail your own threads just to try to make a statement about me.

Try to stay on topic, please.

Unless you think this should be accepted without testing it.

Vayne.8563:

It’s probably quite different with different professions. No problems at all on my post patch ranger for example, but I could see where some professions might have more trouble than others. Rangers are just in a really good place now.

That’s to be expected for two reasons: (1) The ranger has been buffed a lot this patch, and (2) the ranger isn’t as affected by this phenomena since their pet makes up a good amount of their damage. The pet is still increasing in stats every level, unlike the ranger itself. Rangers have historically had an easier time with leveling than most professions since the pet often gets aggro on monsters.

Since this thread has turned more into personal attacks on each other, it is now closed.

OP, I suggest you take your concerns about the NPE to this thread to contribute to the constructive discussion going on over there: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Changes-Coming-to-the-NPE/first