Guild banks are there for a reason, members influence helped building the bank so imo the bank belong to the members.
We do make our members aware of, that using it is on their own risk as we have had people steal from it too and leaving the guild. As soon as we see someone have gone over the top, we take away their access and take no further action until we can get in touch with them. We have had members who have had their account hacked and it was the hacker who stole the stuff.
Because of that, all items from rare and up and gold they are asked to be send to officers whom put them into the guild’s stashes.
Legacy Of [MARA] & Scions Of [MARA] ~Gunnar’ Hold Descendants Of [MARA] ~Yak’s Bend www.gwmara.com
They gave you the access. Its entirely unethical, but I don’t think it is banable. Stealing is if you gain access to something of value without permission. However you have permission and thus it is not stealing. The gentleman thing to do however is to tell them they shouldnt allow everybody this kind of access and leave without taking anything. This game needs no wealth anyway, so easy it is
Wow had a feature for the guild banks where you could only take out x number of items and x number of gold, per day. However, no such feature exists for GW2 yet, but I hope one will be added soon. As a matter of fact, there are alot of things that would be welcome for the organization of the guild.. like last logged on, more advanced guild bank rules and other things.
Also, if the written guild rules say that you may only take x amount of items or gold without asking and you clean out the guild bank then yes yes, its stealing as per the guild rules. It is however, not enforcable by ANET.
Colin Johansen casts – Working As Intended
Colin Johansen hits you for 239407889 damage
Game over
I would expect a repeat offender to get banned yes. Even the most careful of guilds could be deceived into giving an individual access who doesn’t deserve it
Wow had a feature for the guild banks where you could only take out x number of items and x number of gold, per day. However, no such feature exists for GW2 yet, but I hope one will be added soon. As a matter of fact, there are alot of things that would be welcome for the organization of the guild.. like last logged on, more advanced guild bank rules and other things.
Also, if the written guild rules say that you may only take x amount of items or gold without asking and you clean out the guild bank then yes yes, its stealing as per the guild rules. It is however, not enforcable by ANET.
I have been saying this from day one. It shocks me how woeful the guild management tools are for a game named “Guild Wars.”
because your stealing. if you steal from a candy store they dont just get mad, they call the cops. So anet needs to be the cops, step in and perma ban you.
Stealing IRL is defined in a code of laws and legislation.
Find it in the Terms of Service and I will agree with you. Otherwise I stand by my statement and say it’s beneath contempt, but it’s not bannable.
True, it’s not bannable. Ironically, though, since virtual property is still property, you are viable to being sued in a court of law. There were few such cases already (mostly in Korea, but i think there was one in Europe as well).
Of course, it’s not very likely to happen, but if you mess with someone that is both vindictive and has money to burn… might get interesting.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
because your stealing. if you steal from a candy store they dont just get mad, they call the cops. So anet needs to be the cops, step in and perma ban you.
Stealing IRL is defined in a code of laws and legislation.
Find it in the Terms of Service and I will agree with you. Otherwise I stand by my statement and say it’s beneath contempt, but it’s not bannable.
True, it’s not bannable. Ironically, though, since virtual property is still property, you are viable to being sued in a court of law. There were few such cases already (mostly in Korea, but i think there was one in Europe as well).
Of course, it’s not very likely to happen, but if you mess with someone that is both vindictive and has money to burn… might get interesting.
Again, it is virtual property which, because you were given permission to access the bank tab, you have an inherent right to.
You can’t steal from a joint account which has your name on it.
I’m not saying cleaning out the bank is the right thing to do. I’m saying since the leader of the guild gave permission to that tab, you have inherent permission to anything IN that tab.
Even if you want to be a self-centered pig and clean it out.
That being said…the guild has every right to boot your sorry rear end out of the guild, too.
You might like EVE – stealing is a meta game there. But if you want to make the news you’ll have to make it big as the bar is raised pretty high, so be prepared to invest a year or so for your scam.
“Whose Kitten is this?” – “It’s a Charr baby.”
“Whose Charr is this?”- “Ted’s.”
“Who’s Ted?”- “Ted’s dead, baby. Ted’s dead.”
Again, it is virtual property which, because you were given permission to access the bank tab, you have an inherent right to.
If that were the case, then anyone with access to their firm’s accounts could simply withdraw everything and walk away without fear of prosecution. And yet people end up in jail for doing exactly that.
If you were to give your friend your house keys to water the flowers while you were away, and he’d clean your apartment, he’d end up in jail as well.
So no, you didn’t have inherent right to everything in your guild’s bank tab.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
You can throw as many strawman arguments at me as you like, but it’s a “joint account” and anybody with their name on a joint account has as much right to what’s in the account than the others with their names on that account. A corporate account is a different matter. Those are “authorized signatories,” not “joint account” owners.
You can throw as many strawman arguments at me as you like, but it’s a “joint account” and anybody with their name on a joint account has as much right to what’s in the account than the others with their names on that account.
It’s not a house.
It’s not a car.
It’s an account.
Big difference.
One of the examples i gave was an account, if you haven’t noticed. And yes, you can be prosecuted from stealing from a “joint” account as well.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
So if my wife goes out and cleans out our checking account by buying ridiculous amounts of things while I’m off at work I can have her prosecuted?
Don’t think so:
“You can have a joint account with anyone in the world, but once we’re jointly on that bank account, once we sign the papers, both of us have 100 percent rights to that account,” says Sandra M. Radna, a family attorney with Radna & Androsiglio in New York.
I would expect a repeat offender to get banned yes. Even the most careful of guilds could be deceived into giving an individual access who doesn’t deserve it
This isn’t scamming, this isn’t exploting, this isn’t respectable, but its the guild management at fault.
Learn to minimise risk and own one’s failures to do so – its ok its just a computer game guys you can learn that here in safety.
Arguing about the law, on the internet… with regards to someone asking a question about behaviour that doesn’t breach the rules of the game is futile.
Feeling bad due to my response does not mean it was a personal attack.
It may just be that your original statement was wrong.
Please try again.
I would expect a repeat offender to get banned yes. Even the most careful of guilds could be deceived into giving an individual access who doesn’t deserve it
This isn’t scamming, this isn’t exploting, this isn’t respectable, but its the guild management at fault.
Learn to minimise risk and own one’s failures to do so – its ok its just a computer game guys you can learn that here in safety.
Arguing about the law, on the internet… with regards to someone asking a question about behaviour that doesn’t breach the rules of the game is futile.
Wasn’t really arguing law.
Was trying to get a few people to understand what a “joint account” is and what it means.
I quoted a post well above yours, the same as you I believe.
And “joint account” does mean very different things from country to country and WITHIN countries – so I stand at my statement – its futile.
Maybe OP wants to just borrow some resources, in some places the intent to return the property (if proven) is a free ride out, I always leave a note saying “Back in ten, will return” at every crime scene in my wake… erm… ;-)
Feeling bad due to my response does not mean it was a personal attack.
It may just be that your original statement was wrong.
Please try again.
Any right minded human with integrity and upholds their moral values to a certain extent would know that it is not the right thing to do even if you’re given the right to do it. The argument here is to what extent would you go to for your personal gains? Does that include throwing away your moral values and humanity?
Any right minded human with integrity and upholds their moral values to a certain extent would know that it is not the right thing to do even if you’re given the right to do it. The argument here is to what extent would you go to for your personal gains? Does that include throwing away your moral values and humanity?
Any right minded human with integrity and upholds their moral values to a certain extent would know that it is not the right thing to do even if you’re given the right to do it. The argument here is to what extent would you go to for your personal gains? Does that include throwing away your moral values and humanity?
Moral implies truth – we are talking about the name of a made up group, in a game, set in an imaginary fantasy land, and the unhindered and unchallenged seizure of its property…
Its a stretch to say there is an ethical question to be answered, definately not moral.
Feeling bad due to my response does not mean it was a personal attack.
It may just be that your original statement was wrong.
Please try again.
Any right minded human with integrity and upholds their moral values to a certain extent would know that it is not the right thing to do even if you’re given the right to do it. The argument here is to what extent would you go to for your personal gains? Does that include throwing away your moral values and humanity?
Moral implies truth – we are talking about the name of a made up group, in a game, set in an imaginary fantasy land, and the seizure of its property…
Its a stretch to say there is an ethical question to be answered, definately not moral.
It’s worth noting that real life law is starting to catch up with virtual worlds. There was a famous case in South Korea where some guy’s roommate logged into his account (I forget which game it was. Maybe Lineage II?), stole an expensive rare sword and sold it for real cash. It wasn’t a great amount of money, as I recall, but the victim took his roommate to court on the basis that he’d spent months, possibly years, of time and effort to get that sword.
And the court agreed with him, and sentenced the roommate to a couple of years jail.
So, yeah, people should start watching their behaviour in online games. For all you know, stealing from your guild bank may one day land you for 5 years in the slammer.
Any right minded human with integrity and upholds their moral values to a certain extent would know that it is not the right thing to do even if you’re given the right to do it. The argument here is to what extent would you go to for your personal gains? Does that include throwing away your moral values and humanity?
Moral implies truth – we are talking about the name of a made up group, in a game, set in an imaginary fantasy land, and the seizure of its property…
Its a stretch to say there is an ethical question to be answered, definately not moral.
It’s not a stretch at all.
Bah – bad editing, attempted to reword that sorry.
Yes definately and ETHICAL quandry or three here – sorry again.
Feeling bad due to my response does not mean it was a personal attack.
It may just be that your original statement was wrong.
Please try again.
It’s worth noting that real life law is starting to catch up with virtual worlds. There was a famous case in South Korea where some guy’s roommate logged into his account (I forget which game it was. Maybe Lineage II?), stole an expensive rare sword and sold it for real cash. It wasn’t a great amount of money, as I recall, but the victim took his roommate to court on the basis that he’d spent months, possibly years, of time and effort to get that sword.
And the court agreed with him, and sentenced the roommate to a couple of years jail.
So, yeah, people should start watching their behaviour in online games. For all you know, stealing from your guild bank may one day land you for 5 years in the slammer.
Yes but that was common law, based on the individual case having a judge assign real money value to virtual goods – even linden, bitcoin (closest for a while) and other more established currencies with clearer exchange pathways are not treated as a proper fiat currency anywhere, in legislative law, yet.
Looking forward to going back to WoW when they do come up with the laws, running fraps, and sending ninja kiddies to juvenille – help them learn something their parents and the internet aren’t teaching about consequences these days.
Feeling bad due to my response does not mean it was a personal attack.
It may just be that your original statement was wrong.
Please try again.
Going with the office cake analogy. If someone always takes the entire cake, he’s the kitten and will eventually get fired over it. Yes, kitten will be fired for being kitten since that’s counter-productive at work.
The guild equivalent is kicking him. However, neither did something “illegal” or “against the EULA”. It is up to the guild or company to take proper measures.
If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto
One of our guild members had his account hacked, and the hacker looted the guild bank. I have always wanted a daily limit on how much can be withdrawn.
So if my wife goes out and cleans out our checking account by buying ridiculous amounts of things while I’m off at work I can have her prosecuted?
Don’t think so:
“You can have a joint account with anyone in the world, but once we’re jointly on that bank account, once we sign the papers, both of us have 100 percent rights to that account,” says Sandra M. Radna, a family attorney with Radna & Androsiglio in New York.
Like I said before, it’s beneath contempt, but it’s 100% legal.
Except it is not a joint bank account. It’s more like letting your friends use your storage shed to store their stuff in. If one of them takes stuff from another, it is still stealing, even though both had equal access to the storage space.
You need to specifically cede or share your rights to an object for it to not be stealing (marriage contracts and joint bank accounts are a form of such right sharing. Guild bank tab is not – unless your guild specifically allows its members to “take all they want” of course).
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
People are so quick to judge… yes he can be someone who wants to rob a guild but he may also be a guild leader that wants to protect the stuff of this guild… we don’t know so we shouldn’t judge
I don’t know the tos but I’m fairly sure that you can’t get banned because of it since by allowing bank access, therefore the player was given the permission to take, how much to take is another question but we can’t mandate that, to me bank access= permission to take, therefore you can’t ban for it
Someone gave an example of coming to dinner and robbing the host… that’s not very correct, a better example would be coming to dinner and eating all the food there… that’s being [insert whatever here]… but by inviting you to dinner, the host has given you permission to eat, and you did, a lot… you won’t be invited back but you can’t be arrested for eating too much, you can’t go back on allowing the person to eat… or take from the guild bank once you’ve already allowed someone to do it… not bannable to me, it’s a poor choice by the guild leader/officer… don’t blame others for your poor choices…
Moral implies truth – we are talking about the name of a made up group, in a game, set in an imaginary fantasy land, and the unhindered and unchallenged seizure of its property…
Its a stretch to say there is an ethical question to be answered, definately not moral.
Just because the world we interact in with each other isn’t real doesn’t mean the people behind the characters aren’t real. Social decency should still apply unfortunately there’s always people who feel like you that because it’s online that somehow makes it okay to behave badly. If anything that says a lot about you as a person in general, I’d personally stay clear of anyone who acts nicely in real life but treats people online like trash, to me that’s an incredibly two-faced thing I wouldn’t trust that kind of person.
Consider your guild bank to be unsecured and only put in it that which you will not miss if it is taken.
We use ours to put extra stuff in generated from leveling crafting mostly, potions and foods free for others to take and use and intermediate items not needed by the depositor anymore but that could help the next person leveling crafting. Also, extra harvested materials that a crafter could use while leveling.
We never deposit money in it.
Anyhow, permission is key and trust is misplaced.
It’s a kitten conspiracy. Kittens gonna be kittens. All is vain!
So if my wife goes out and cleans out our checking account by buying ridiculous amounts of things while I’m off at work I can have her prosecuted?
Don’t think so:
“You can have a joint account with anyone in the world, but once we’re jointly on that bank account, once we sign the papers, both of us have 100 percent rights to that account,” says Sandra M. Radna, a family attorney with Radna & Androsiglio in New York.
Like I said before, it’s beneath contempt, but it’s 100% legal.
Except it is not a joint bank account. It’s more like letting your friends use your storage shed to store their stuff in. If one of them takes stuff from another, it is still stealing, even though both had equal access to the storage space.
You need to specifically cede or share your rights to an object for it to not be stealing (marriage contracts and joint bank accounts are a form of such right sharing. Guild bank tab is not – unless your guild specifically allows its members to “take all they want” of course).
Number one, it’s not a storage shed, because not a single item in those bank tabs shows who owns it. It is, indeed, an account. An account everybody in the guild has access to unless restrictions are placed on that tab. By definition, that is a “joint account.”
Number two, when you deposit something into the guild bank account, you are relinquishing ownership of it, as there are no labels of what is owned by whom in the bank. Not a single person has to ask you if they can take it out, even though you put it in there. This is not personal storage space for you like a shed is. When you put something in there you are inviting whomever needs it to take it as that is the entire point of a guild bank.
It isnt’ just extra bank space where you can expect to store your things and not have people take it. To think otherwise is an indication of not understanding the point of a guild bank.
It should not be a bannable offense. The guild is in complete control over who has access to the the guild bank. The dinner party analogy is flawed. Here is a better one: Would you put someone on your real life bank account that you just met? Would you allow someone access to your real life bank account that you don’t trust?
In other words, if you give someone the opportunity to misbehave or commit a crime he is entitled to do so?
How is it a crime when someone gives you access to the money?
Exactly. If someone’s name is on a bank account, they are perfectly able to drain the account and never talk to you again.
Being ABLE to do something does NOT mean you should do it.
I never said you should do it – in fact if you read my posts, I said it was scummy. All I’m saying is that it is not stealing, and the person cannot be punished for it. There are a lot of kitten moves out there that are perfectly legal.
So, if I invite a friend to my house, and i leave my wallet on the table for a little while, its perfectly legal for him to take it? It wouldnt be stealing? Someone is let into a bank vault to check on their deposit box and it turns out that there is an unlocked deposit box close to it, is it perfectly legal for them to take all the stuff from it?
Do you really not see how these are completely different situations from the topic of the thread? And how one is legal and the others are not?
My turret is so much better at this game than I am.
If someone has a shared account in the bank with lets say the husband/wife and there is 100k in the account. Is it perfectly fine for the other half to take it all out and just leave the country never to be seen again?
From a legal standpoint, yes. The husband or wife has every right to take everything out of the bank account and use it however they like.
My turret is so much better at this game than I am.
I’ll say it again: There is no such thing as stealing from a guild bank as far as ArenaNet is concerned. If someone took something from the guild bank it’s because the guild leaders gave them permission to do so – whether intentionally or not.
As far as a guild is concerned, they can place their own rules on the guild bank, and then enforce those rules as they see fit. The worst thing they can do to a player is to remove them from the guild though. That’s the limit of their authority. ArenaNet will not enforce an individual guild’s rules.
My turret is so much better at this game than I am.
FYI u ppl are wrong you will NOT get banned this already happened to a guild I was apart of and ANET said you have rights to give or not give Permissions who can get into your Guild bank meaning if he rights to take out of guild bank then that falls on ur “GM” shoulders and his problem
If you dont belive me go Read up on the hole user Argeement lol
I don’t think it’s bannable because it’s down to the guild leader to set the access level.
Personally I would never give any random member access to everything valuable to the guild as a whole, trust gotta be earned, especially on the interwebz.
Giving access to just anyone is like giving a complete stranger the key to your house, eg not the smartest thing to do until you’ve built a trust relationship.
I don’t believe this kind of action would be against the terms of service, and I doubt ArenaNet would ban you for it — but they certainly ought to. You’re robbing a large group of players of their shared items, gold, and progress — not to mention possibly destroying their interest in taking part in a guild, or in the game in general. If that’s not worth banning over, I don’t know what is.
implying you all wouldn’t take 200+ gold from the guild you barely know
A lot of us don’t go around stealing stuff from people who barely know in real life, too. Lack of familiarity with a person or group does not excuse stabbing them in the back.
It’s not a bannable offense. If the guild gave you access to it, you have access to it. They won’t even ban players who outright scam other players during weapon sales outside of the TP.
You’d get kicked from the guild, for sure, and make a lot of enemies, as you should, but ANet isn’t going to do anything about it.
No, tough luck, either dont give privledges to new members or get used to people taking things out of the guild bank. This is not anything new and has been happening since the first guild banks years ago.
Yea, is a despicable awful thing to do, but the guild leader is at the same fault if not more for giving permission in the first place. Also people talking about suing and perma bans are in la-la land, I doubt you will see perma bans for GL mistakes in any game.
Anarai Aeonblade [GASM] – Guardian – DB
RIP my fair Engi and Ranger, you will be missed.
This would not be a problem if Anet would give guild leaders more options as far as guild management.
For the most part ppl put items in the guild bank for anyone in the guild to use if they need it. Gold is usually put in the gbank to use for guild events or to buy siege, etc. As far as I know there is no way to allow ppl to take items and not allow them to take gold. They should have also allowed guild leaders to put a limit on what someone could take as far as gold and items. Maybe so many/much per day/week.
I have been in guilds before that you had to ask an officer to get something out of the bank for you, it sux. A lot of times an officer may not be on and it is a pain for the officers to have to do that all the time.
Anet, give guild leaders better guild management options. This thread is a perfect example of why.
Number one, it’s not a storage shed, because not a single item in those bank tabs shows who owns it.
Here’s a better example of unlabeled community storage: the fridge at work. Do you take things from the fridge based on the concept that “It doesn’t say who this belongs to and it’s placed in storage that I have access to, therefor it’s here for me to take”?
