Guild Wars 2

Hello GW2 Forum goers,

As noted in a previous CDI thread namely the Vertical/Horizontal Character progression thread. Chris Whiteside showed interest in creating or developing a Sub-class system in the future. Now whether or not this will come into fruition this created quite the buzz around the forums with both positive and negative feedback.

So I thought about making a topic for discussion until either a mod closes it or when the actual “Sub-Classes” CDI thread actually comes up.

Topics to discuss

• What are your thoughts on sub-classes?
• How would you implement them into the game?
• What are in your opinion the Pros and Cons of this system?
• Create a sub-class (This topic is more on the theory crafting side of the thread here it isn’t mandatory ,but fun to be creative ya know?)

Sub Classes
1. What are sub-classes?

• Basically the system of sub-classes is unlocking specializations of a base class. In other words in MMO terms its merely classes branching/Advancement ala Ragnarok Online.

2. Isn’t Sub-classes already in the game?

• In my honest opinion yes you can spec your characters into a sub-class via traits and items. The aspect of what sub-classes can do is further expand those builds and bring forth some unique/creative gameplay.

3. If you could how would you implement them?

• Me I would have the following conditions.

• The first one will that the character must be level 80 and learnt all the skills of that class (Not including racial skills).

• Next they will visit their main profession trainer to learn more about the sub-class afterwards they will go on a series of missions that not only teach you the sub-class ,but allows you to think about making that choice.

• Once you done the quest you will be granted access to a tracker with some tasks to do to unlock the tracker further to unlock skills and traits.

• Ensure that you don’t like the sub-class you can go back and forward between the sub-class and base class.

• A choice of two specializations per base class.

• Lastly with sub-classes they should be implement with this motto in mind “To gain something you most lose something”. Basically what this mean if Guardian wants to be more of an Tanky like sub-class aka Sentinel “Note: Name is a place filler here”. Then that guardian will be more specialized into Shouts and Meditations while losing the power to use their spirit weapons and consecrations.

Pros and Cons
Pros of this system

• Create a wider broad of diversity in the builds in the game.
• Fresh Gameplay .
• Possibly change the meta in various game modes.
• Shows that the races of Tyria are evolving to fight the elder dragons and also other enemies that are a threat to them.

Cons of the System

• Balance issues is the biggest one.
• Can cause a rift among players.
• Can take awhile to perfect and possibly some game breaking bugs that might take awhile to fix (If implemented).

Sub-Class examples for fun

• Credit to Linkblade for the format and thread
  https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Detailed-New-Profession-Suggestions#post1064250

Heavy – Warlord (Branch from the Warrior Class) , Leaders of the battlefield , Symbol looks like a Yellow Warrior Helmet with a banner in the background of it

Lore- Warlords are known for their battle prowess into leading troops into battle. With their steel resolve and knowledge of various tactics the warlords take to the battlefield to lead the armies of tyria to conquer and defeat the elder dragons.

Play Style - Warlords due to their advancement have strengthen their knowledge of tactics and battle resolve allowing their Shouts and Banners to have stronger effects , affect enemies in new ways and learning how to use their presence to strengthening their allies at the cost of losing the ability to use stances and physical moves.

Profession Mechanic Maneuvers – Replacing the adrenaline bar the warlord now can create tactical maneuvers to either discover enemies weakness or help allies become stronger before engaging. Maneuvers can be learned by the Utilities the warlord has equipped think of the engineer with this.

Weapons - Sword , Halberd , Warhorn and Shield the reason I chose those weapons is because they seem to fit the warlord theme of being in the middle of the fight and rallying troops.

Traits - Basically warlord traits will deal with Banners and Shouts increasing their effects , range and control. I want to make up some traits when I have time.

In Conclusion
I feel that this system will be a great discussing ground for the future of guild wars 2 and also the community to talk about. I been writing this for awhile now and I hope this thread will bring some interesting points to discuss.

~Thank you and very respectfully
Ferever.

Ferever.7014:

• How would you implement them into the game?

Different usable weapons and additional utility skills and/or weapon skills as utility skills.

Eg. a Thief Blade Dancer gets the Whirling Sword, which works like Whirling Axe the Axe/Axe Warrior already has – but as an utility/elite skill.
The Engineer Repair Master gets the Two-handed Hammer or the Mace instead of Pistol as alternative usable weapon.

Another possibility would be to implement a passive skill system where the already existing minor, major and superior runes and sigils synergize in different ways. To keep us players busy and experimenting it could be like this:

A set with nine empty slots (there could be more sets a player can get access to)

o o o
o o o
o o o

Now the players have to experiment by slotting 3 minor, 2 major and 1 superior runes and sigils to find a hidden combination that has a specific passive effect. The original effects from the slotted runes and sigils are removed, only the synergy effect has an impact.

Eg:

r minor rune of dolyak, R major rune of centaur, S superior sigil of renewal

r r r
o S R
o o R

This could be a hidden combination and grants eg. the random effect of turning an opponent into a skritt (and is part of the Beast Master sub-class, just an example). As long as no hidden combination is slotted the runes and sigils can be taken out. When a valid combination is slotted a pop up asks whether this combination should be locked or not. Once it’s locked, the slots can be cleared but all runes and sigils are lost. Maybe add a chance to get them back when adding a salvage kit or something like this. Whether it should be just the combination of the right runes and sigils or the graphical arrangement too, I don’t know.

The synergy effects must not have any impact on stats, because otherwise it would be like introducing another item tier, but I guess there are enough possibilities of other funny and useful effects.

This just came to my mind when I read the OP, I didn’t think about the system deeply.

If you are putting new skills into the game, are there any benefits to restricting their use? Is it really better if players have to be level 80 to get them? Is it really better if players have to be in a sub-class to use them? Is it really better for players to lose access to some skills just to gain others? If you are putting new quest/mission content into the game shouldn’t it be available to everyone and not just the characters of one class (who want to change class)?

I think it would be easier to create a group of associated utilities/elite/traits for a class and only let them be equipped as a package (so some traits might be marked as ‘reaver’ traits and you can only use reaver skills if you have at least two reaver traits). I’m sure it would be possible to make major changes to weapon skills and play style this way.

@Stooperdale: I will answer your questions to the best of my abilities since I just woke up ,but no excuses I will do it.

1. If you are putting new skills into the game, are there any benefits to restricting their use?

A. Well the one benefit I can think of is a new style of gameplay ,however I do see your point though.

2. Is it really better if players have to be level 80 to get them?

A. I believe so I went with level 80 ,because it is the max level (Technically) in the game. I used that as an example on how MMOs used max level as a requirement for progression.

3. Is it really better if players have to be in a sub-class to use them?

A.No I see where you are getting at they could just make more skills into the base class itself.

4. Is it really better for players to lose access to some skills just to gain others?

A.Well for this question I believe so ,because it will allow them to fine tune certain aspects that might interest them.

5. If you are putting new quest/mission content into the game shouldn’t it be available to everyone and not just the characters of one class (who want to change class)?

A. Well as long as the other characters fulfill those requirements then yes it should be available to all characters.

I must say you bring up valid points and reading your last paragraph about package traits interest me. Being a “reaver” as you mentioned will make major changes to the gameplay ,because of the gameplay style of said reavers ,but answer me this what will a reaver do exactly?

I want to be a warrior and a thief :O

killahmayne.9518:

I want to be a warrior and a thief :O

Note: The term sub-classes are not dual profession as stated in GW2 ,but in terms of class advancements in other MMOs.

What are My thoughts on Sub Classes?
They are absolutely needed. They are the ultimate answer for improving the game’s horizontal progression alot. Point!

How would I implement Sub Classes
Sub Classes are part of a depthful and complex Character Progression System, that should go far beyond just only Traits. ANet needs to split up the Trait System into 4 different Segments

• Traits – responsible for direct Skill Changes of Weapon/Utility/Healing/Elite-Skills
• Talents – responsible for passive offensive/defensive Character Effects
• Abilities – responsible for indirect constant Character Effects
• Knowledges – responsible for Skill Animation Changes and passive Background Boosts for the Character, like dealing Extra Damage towards a specific Creature Type

With splitting up the Trait System, Character Customization and individuality can finally become alot more depthful.
Step by Step Ladder on how to get your Sub Class:

1) Create your Thief and level it to 80
2) Learn all of the Traits that your Thief can learn to know all of your “Basics”
3) Read a received Letter from an unknown Person, who rivals you to a Duel.
If you beat him/her with your Character, he7she will teach you as a reward about how you can hone further your Skills to learn various kinds of Sub Classes through specializing yourself and creating this way better your unique fighting style.
4) Read your Invitation Letter from your Race Leader to visit him/her and learn about a new Game Feature – “Heroic Missions”, which are 9 Man repeatable instanced Missions of GW1-Style in which you have to fulfill several goals and where fulfilling specific extra goals increases your End Rewards.
These Heroic Missions reward Players with unlocking new Talents, Abilities and Knowledges as like also new Traits for sucessfully absolving them the first time.
4) Talents are differentiated between 3 Types

• Basic Talents
  • Advanced Talents
    • Naturalborn Talents

By doing the Heroic Missions, Characters will unlock their Naturalborn Talents first.
Once you unlocked a Sub Class, you’ll start with a set amount of Basic Talents in it and get Advanced Talents, when you develop your Basic Talents further.

5) Once you learned a naturalborn talent that leads to learning a new Sub Class, go speak with your Profession Trainer. The NPC will test you, if you got everything what it takes to become your chosen Sub Class. You have to fulfill a series of different tasks, which will be from Class to Class, from Sub Class to Sub Class very different.

6) Once you have mastered all of the given Tasks of the Profession Trainer, you will be invited to duel the Profession Trainer in an instance to check out, if you truly learned of what has been teached to you. If you beat then the NPC, you will learn your chosen Sub Class and unlock it for your Account.

Pro’s and Cons of Sub Classes

Pros:

• Incredibly increase the Character Progression and Depth of Character Development
• Improve significantly the Build Diversity of our Characters
• Can easily be used as Unlocking Mechanism for new Class Features, like new useable Weapons, new special Traits, new Racial Skills and so on ..
• Can easily be used to make our Characters visually more unique through Sub Class Specific Armor Sets which could be used only with certain Sub Classes
• Can be used to make the Game better balanced on the long run
• Shows, that our Characters evolve further and that they don’t stagnate honing themself on the long road of defeating all of the Elder Dragons
• Adds fresh new Gameplay, which might bring alot Players back to GW2 which quitted the game cause of boredom and lack of Character Progression

Cons:

• Might end up being too complex for some players
• Balancing is naturally always an Issue
• Takes more time to design and to develop, than to add just only single seperate new classes to the Game.

Sub Class List

Thief > Rogue – Saboteur – Infiltrator – Brawler
Necromancer > Ritualist – Visionary – Occultist – Witcher
Warrior > Berserker – Legionnaire – Partizan – Duelist
Ranger > Druid – Hunter – Scout – Strider
Elementalist > Bender – Summoner – Arcanist – Sage
Guardian > Patron – Mystic – Inquisitor – Augmentor
Mesmer > Fencer – Bard – Psionist – Chronomancer
Engineer > Alchemist – Technician – Artificer – Pioneer
Knight > Dragoon – Marauder – Crusader – Templar

Specializations – Thief

Rogue – Specialized in Stealing and Mobility, they are very efficient Boon Controlers and improved their Stealing Skills significantly so that they became a much better Frontline Supporter that weakens their foes and makes themself or their allies at the same time stronger

Saboteur – Specialized in defensive Support and Interruptions, they are the bane of all mechanic things. From siege weapons/golems over turrets.
They are very skilled in finding weaknesses of enemies and very good at analyzing their foes and the situations around them to find ways how they can interrupt a foe.

Infiltrator – Specialized in Venoms and Stealth, they are the deadly shadows, which kill as quickly and vanish as quickly as they appeared. They infiltrate easily hard defended places to gather intel of enemy tactics anc use espionage techniques for that.
Infiltrators are basically everything, what you think about, when you think about Ninjas +Metal Gear Solid + Mission Impossible combined.

Brawler – Specialized in Acrobatics/Movement and Direct Offense, they are the most fastest and strongest specialization of the Thief, the kind of Martial Artist that quickly assasinates their foes with deadly melee combat arts and doesn’t also fear to use for that just also only their bare fists and feet or weapons, like Claws, Tonfas, Nunchucks, Quarterstaffs and Chain Sickles

Specializations – Necromancer

Ritualist – Specialized in Spectral Magic and out of Corruptions improved Rituals of all kinds (Blood Rituals, Pact Rituals, Sacrificial Rituals, Summon Rituals, Sealing Rituals ect.) They speak with the undead and stay in tight contact with the souls of the undead to the point, that they learned how to create Soul Bindings as a special new technique either with foes, or with allies and using the Ashes of the Dead to create those Soul Bindings. Breaking those bonds can unleash very mighty powers in the environment.

Visionary – specialized in new occult territories of Astrology and Death Magic, they developed telepathic powers of high supportive kind. They can see Visions and control the powers of the Sun, Moon and Stars with the help of Tarot Cards to perform Fortunetelling to rival their destiny and that of their foes. Lady Luck is on their side and thus Visionaries are extremely unpredictable to fight against, because they are able to suprise you at any given time with some random things and powerful Astral Magics while using their magical floating Orbs and Chakrams against you.

Occultist – they are specialized into Minion Mastery of all kinds of skelettons, zombies, ghouls and demons to the point, that they can transfrom themself even into Half Demons, like Vampires, Werewolves, Harpies or Flesh Reavers.
They master Vampirism like no other kind of Necromancer as Soul Reaping and Vampirism is an essential thing for them to gain what they need to emporer their minions or to transform into half demons. The most powerful Minions come from Occultists

Witcher – Specialized into Marks/Curses and offensive Melee Combat, the Witcher is the kind of Demon Hunter, the Anti-Occultist and dark themed opposite basically of the Guardian which curses foes with powerful lingering “Hexes” that are harder to remove, than normal conditions. They master the necrotic combat with melee weapons like swords, greatswords, maces and the like and cleave with these weapons through the masses of monsters, like no other Necromancer-Sub Class.

Specializations – Warrior

Berserker – specialized in brute Offense/Adrenaline Gameplay (Bursts) and Shouts, berserkers make usage of their immense amounts of Adrenaline that far surpass that of normal Warriors and use it to engage Battles in their “Berserk Mode”, the so called Blood Rush, which temporarely increases their power, attack speed, weapon swap times getting reduced and changes their weapon skills to special Berserk-Versions, but at the cost of having reduced Max Health and Toughness and conditions being stronger against them and boons lasting significantly lesser in their durations.
In the Blood Rush, berserkers gain Stability. its activated, by reaching a new 4th Adrenaline Segment, that you get, when you fill up 2x all 3 prior segments.

Legionaire – specialized into Tactics and supportive defense.
Legionaires improved their War Banners and are able to summon various kinds of “Legions” to their help that they can command to act either offensively, defensively or supportively, which changes the skils of the Legions they use., while they get emporeded by the War Banners of the Legionaire. The Game Chaos Legion basically is the biggest inspiration for that gameplay, because currently the Warriro is the only Class, which has no summon-gameplay and the game has also yet no heavy armored type of minion class. All Classes can naturally summon something, only warriors not, so I thought it would be an awesome thing, if warrios would compensate this with a sub class here via commanding legions like a little warlord, but completely different, than Necromancers with much more emphasis on tactical gameplay

Partizan – specialized in absolute defense and ranged combat, Parizans feel like being the ultimate descendants (but just without their wannabe angel spleen) of the old Paragons. They use polearm weapons liek Halberds and throw Jawelins, while having improved combat skills with Shields too with that they protect themself and their allies. But also Rifles get improved by the Partizan.

Duelist – specialized in Weapon Combat with 2 weapons and stances with that they can perform a multitude of different Combat Styles. From Blade Dances over Deadly Ripostes is everything possible. Movement and Mobility is their thing for the sacrifice of defense powers and supportive. They are extremly diverse, what makes them very unpredictable and adaptive to all kinds of various situations.

Specializations – Ranger

Druid – specialized in Nature Magic and Nature Spirits, the Druid is the true symbol of being a Shaman of Nature. They summon all kinds of Beasts to their help and are true Beast Masters that can command up to 2 Pet Companions at the same time.
They can use powers of the Nature Avatars of the Land, Sea, Sky and Forest and are known to be very powerful supporters

Hunter – specialized in Trapping and ranged Burst Damage, hunters are the most efficient Trappers. Their pets are even trained to detect and deactivate traps from foes for them so that Hunters are basically immune to traps.
Hunters are also an Anti-Stealth Sub Class, very good in detecting stealthed foes like Thieves and their advanced version, the Infiltrator.

Scout – specialized in condition dealing, like weakness, cripple and vulnerability, supportive shouts. They are good at analyzing their foes from far away and make also usage of Stealth to hide themself to scout safely around. They are masters of wilderness survival. Theres no space in the world of Tyria, where a Scout would not survive. You can see the military drill in their eyes, that drives them further to survive, every single day of their live.

Strider – specialized in a combination between ranged and melee combat with dealing various kinds of conditions, punishing the foe for movement and controling their movement with Strings.
They gameplay concept is heavily influenced by the Strider Concept of the game Dragon’s Dogma, which feels like a mixture of Thief and Ranger in a kind of GW2 term.
Striders make usage of Crossbows over Shortbows for more powerful bursts, for the cost of attacking with them slightly slower due to longer reloads of the weapon skills.
Striders are very agile and from all Ranger Sub Class Variations the most agile one, which is also in melee combat the most effective.

Specializations – Elementalist

Bender – specialized in Elemental Attunements and conjuring of elemental weapons.
Their versions of turning into Pyromancers, Geomancers, Hydromancer or Aeromancers will have more powerful elemental Auras and in overall Benders are masters of mobility and movement through their various special elemental advantages.

Summoner – specialized in Glyphs to summon all kinds of elemental beasts, avatars, spirits and the like to the point, that they can summon up to 2 Djinns, the mightiest form of Elementals .

Arcanist – specialized into the Arcane Powers, Magic Spells of the Ether Element – pure neutral magic turning it into Energy that is used against foes or as support.
Arcanists are Battle Mages, making usage of elemental spells for melee combat effects, like elemental shield effects or elemental weapon effects to support themself or other allies with them (Weapon/Armor Spells) They developed the unique techniqu of being able to perform Fusion Magic through combining two different elemental spelsl with each other to create Fusion Spells with complete different effects as are also able to perform Dual Casting, beign able to perform two magic spells at the same time by absorbing magical powers from their foes. They are very resistent to all kinds of elemental or mental conditions

Sage- specialized in Cantrips, improving them to more significant environmental effects and changes to thevenvironment, by manipulating for example the weather.
They empower their magic spells through Magic Artifacts and Runestones and are capable of creating immensive elemental AoE spells to cause natural catastrophes, like extreme earth quakes, huge tidal waves, enormous twisters and massive thunderstorms, blizzards, sandstorms and the like to control with them on an environmental basis the foes in the changed areas. To protect themself, they use improved versions of Cantrips, so called Barriers.
Protective elemental fields that get even more powerful and bigger, so more boons the Sage has. Sages are basically so called “Terraformers”, they make usage of their elenmental powers to alterate the environment around them to their liking.
You wanto to see a earth wall somewhere, no problem.
You want to create a lake to force your foes into underwater combat, no problem, and so on …

While Orpheal continues with her/his posts I will continue with the next topic of discussion in this thread.

Acquiring Sub-Classes in the other game modes

PvP

• One way to acquire the Sub-class in PvP is either using rank points to unlock the sub-class as a whole this includes the traits , skills and weapon sets.
• Another way will be to level up and then choose which path you want to take.

WvW

• Rank points and acquiring the skills from a NPC in WvW.

Sorry if this is short I will refine this post more as time goes on ,but let us discuss the other ways to unlock the sub-classes in another modes.

I really dislike the idea of subclasses, mostly because they’re kinda sorta unnecessary with how weapons and skills are laid out.

In a game like SWTOR in particular, it makes sense, because which AC you pick drastically affects the roles you can play, the skills you can use and the weapons and general aesthetic of your class, and it’s a permanent decision. But in GW2, your abilities and what you’re playing fundamentally spring out of which weapons and utilities you use. If you use a longbow as a ranger, you are always going to be a long-ranged attacker. If you use a shortbow or axe as a ranger, you are always going to be a skirmisher.

At the moment, for sPvP anyway, subclasses are pointless because this kind of specialization already exists in the game. If there was a subclass system, then MM would be a subclass, Spirit Ranger would be a subclass, Meditation Guardian would be a subclass- formalizing it as a system adds nothing- it actually reduces the amount of experimentation you can do to try to create your own ‘subclass’.

Sarrs.4831:

At the moment, for sPvP anyway, subclasses are pointless because this kind of specialization already exists in the game. If there was a subclass system, then MM would be a subclass, Spirit Ranger would be a subclass, Meditation Guardian would be a subclass- formalizing it as a system adds nothing- it actually reduces the amount of experimentation you can do to try to create your own ‘subclass’.

Yes I’m not a SPVP player ,but someone told me once before this system is already existent in this game and I agree. Also if I may ask can you provide an example of how it will limit experimentation so I can get a better understanding for your point of view.

Specializations – Guardian

Patron – specialized into Protection of Allies/Boon Support and Spirit Weapons to the point, that they developed Spirit Weapons further into so called “Patron Spirits”, which are more more effective versions. They are able to summon also something new, a so called “Patronus”. A special protective Spirit that is based on the Personality of your character and provides due to this different effects. A Patronus automatically appears at the near death of the Patron or a chosen ally, that you marked to protect until death and which lets the patronus die in cased that your marked allied would receive a lethal blow that would kill your alle. That kind of protection will then rally your ally or yourself if the Patronus should die, before you die.
A Patron is just the class for everybody, who likes to tank and support allies defensively with indirect heals.

Mystic – specialized into Symbols, Tomes and inproved versions of them, so called Esoteric Scrolls that seal away their forbidden Mystic Arts.
Mystics are specialized in melee combat using midranged weapons like halberds
They control the Aspects of Light and Darkness and are able to create Twilight.
Mystics are very much based around the daytime gameplay, havign different skill effects based on it, if its currently day or night. They specialized also in the Virtues and have more Virtues to play with.

Inquisitor – specialized into Condition Control and Melee Combat.
They are a bane for summons, like Minions, Spirits, Legions or Elementals.
They speciality is to perform counter attacks and Inquisitors are very meditative improving their powers through strengthening their faith in themself with their meditations, being totally zealous at this.
They are able to perform force fields of sacred energy to reflect harm from them and their allies.

Augmentor – specialized in Boon Spreading/Support and buffing allies with different side effects, like vigor, stability, swiftness.
Augmentors are also more a supportive Clas,s which directly can significantly buff Stats of charatcers, stronger and unrelevent of the distance to anxally or bound to a set of point, than a warrior with its Banners. But therefore, those Statt buffs aren’t of AoE basis, they count only for single targets.
The gameplay around them is basically inspired by the Augmentor Class of FF13
Augmentors could provdie also protection spell, which directly reduce the amount of physical or conditional damage one can receive, not based by numbers, but based on % instead.

PS: I’ll continue with the rest tomorrow

Ferever.7014:

Yes I’m not a SPVP player ,but someone told me once before this system is already existent in this game and I agree. Also if I may ask can you provide an example of how it will limit experimentation so I can get a better understanding for your point of view.

You just can’t mix and match skills which may or may not improve your effectiveness(which is the experiment). I’ll use traits for an example.

Let’s say that, for example, the new set of Grandmaster traits that ANet added in were instead attached to a subclass system. Say, for example, there was an Engineer subclass which revolved around magnets, and you inherently got the turret bubble trait through becoming a Magneteer.

Would this be better or worse than the current situation, which is them as a grandmaster trait? At the moment, you can currently mix that toy with the new toys in the other line; for example, you could grab boon-on-turret and bubble-on-turret and become super turret man; it’s not necessarily viable, but it’s a fun experiment to try and see whether that’ll work. You can do tons of things like this; for example, you could grab the haste-on-knockback GM trait and the fury-on-gadget trait and become some kind of super gadgeteer.

If there are five subclasses, and each only gets one of these tools, then there are a lot of synergies, and places to experiment, which are lost for the change. It becomes a very straightforward decision, but straightforward decisions are not good things to have for encouraging imagination.

I’m reminded of this video.

The idea of going down specialization trees is nice from a progression standpoint, but what always happens in MMO’s that have it is one specialization (for each class) is deemed the “best” by the community, and if you don’t go down that route then you’re sub-par.

Basically how OP already stated balancing would be an issue, in my opinion it would just force people to build a certain way….which we already have happening in certain parts of the game.

I would be disappointed if “sub-classes” were simply the addition of new branches of existing classes, and that was not what I interpreted it as. That would just be a far more limiting variant of traits/utilities.
I’d prefer to be able to choose a secondary class like in GW1, and gain a subset of its abilities.
Both weapons and utilities are often too thoroughly tied to unique mechics like the class skill(s) and traits to reasonably be able to lift skills whole-sale.
But, each class could have a sub-set of skills, and possibly a trait line, which would be granted by taking it as a secondary class. If you don’t want to dual-class that would also give you the option to double-dip in the same class and still benefit just as well.
Taking Thief as a secondary, for example, might give you access to 5 completely new Thief-themed skills including one Deception, one Trickery, one Venom, one Trap, and an Elite. As well as a single slightly generalized trait line focused on the main purpose of the class, like a bit of stealth, mobility and burst.

Alternatively, they could use the same basic idea here, but instead use all new sub-classes that any other class could take. Rather than taking Thief you could take Assassin, which would focus on allowing you to get the jump on people and improving burst damage.
They would need to be weapon-independent as well. A Ranger could then take something like Assassin while using a Longbow to be a more effective sniper.
Or they could take some sort of Soldier sub-class with a Greatsword for extra sustainability in front-line fighting.

Specializations – Mesmer

Fencer – specialized in Melee Combat and Mantras, they are the fast Duelists ans Masters of Fast Casting. Fencers make use of the Shatter System to create Voids and to manipulate Gravity to speed up themself to become very fast fighters.
Their Sword techniques are unique and completely different from a Warrior whos fighting with a sword, less powerful, but with alot more finesse to counter attacks, and to avoid beign hit.

Bard – specialized into Inspiration Magic for Group Support and Chaos Magic, Bards are those unpredictable Mesmer-Specializations, which can support and damage on the battle fields with their Songs, Hymns and Shouts at the same time and even repeat their helpful skills through Echoes. Melodies and Anthems are of special support and a Rhytm System gets exchanged for the Shatter Systme to change the pitch of your Skills to work either as supportive, defensive, offensive or control skill.

Psionist specialized into Domination Magic, they have incredibly improved mental powers with that they are able to use psycho kinetic forces of their will power to draw and pull for example a thing around like their want. That makes Psionists excellent Interrupters which can stun, daze and knockdown or launch foes alot or just slow them down with cripples. Their ranged attacks are very, but so nearer you are to a Psionist, so strogner and devastatign can their attacks be when you face the full power of their psycho kinesis at nearest distance. Shatters are turned into special Will Powers here that the Psionist gains to perform more powerful psycho kinetic skills, when the foe destroys their phantasms, which get improved also to horrors.
Horrors are special Phantasms which know through the Psionists the weaknesses of the foes, which they can read through the foes mind through Telepathy.

Chronomancer specialized into Illusion Magic, Chronmancers are the most powerful Illusionists which are able to deceive even the Timespace of Reality
They manipulate the past, the present and even the future through their shatters, which create rifts into the timespace continuum, making it possible for Mesmer to change the time. Chronomancers are due to this feature very great supporters, but also controler. Time Magic ist the most powerful improvement to Illusion Magic and who can control time, can make everythign happen or worse situations make unhappen to revive for example fallen allies, which died through a lethal attack being reverted by a Chronomancers through resettign the time back for that ally to heal the lethal wound. Regenerations and Degenerations are a Chronomancers speciality.

Specializations – Engineer

Alchemists – specialized as the name of the class already obviously tells it, into alchemy and Explosives as like also Elixiers, they perform a wide range of alchemic skilsl that make usage of acids, dynamite, powders, elixiers and so on.
Their Toolbelt gets exchanged with the feature of the Homunculus System, which allows it the Alchemist to create magical creatures from trophies of all kinds of creatures, which they mix together with various alchemic materials.
That way an Alchemist basically can summon every kind of Monster to their help and make them through their alchemic powers even more powerful than normal and support them, so that they can help you better in combat. But also turrets do Alchemists improve with their alchemic skilsl to let them get extra efffects, that an unprepared turret wouldn’t have.

Technician – specialized into Inventions and Tools/Gadgets, they are the absolute masterminds when it comes to everything that has to do with something technical.
They make far more usage of special inventions, like flamethrowers and other tool kits.
They have something, that is called an Electro Shocker for example or a Vacuum Cannon. Technicians should be extremly inspired by the crazy weapons/inventions that the Ratchet & Clank Games have. Ratchet is a Technician and he uses the craziest things always in his games, which would be so funny, if something similar would exist in GW2.

Artificer – specialized into Melee Combat, the Artificer uses rather weapons like Maces, Hammers, Axes and Shields which he improves through mechanical alterations to increase their performance in combat.
Artificers are also known for their very good skills in Controls to the point, that they create even for themself a Mech Suit with that they go into Melee Combat to enhance with it their physical powers to move faster and their defense. Artificers do look in their Mech Suits, as if the Person and the Mech would have merged into just one being, as if it would be like a second skin for them.
Artificers do look in these thigns basically then like “Cyborgs”, half man, half machine, able to wield much bigger versions of melee weapons liek said maces, hammers, or axes/ great axes.

Pioneer – specialized in ranged combat with all kinds of firearms, from pistols over rifles to crossbows and their turrets, which they improved also to become mobile to turning the turrets into drones.
Pioneers are very good in scouting also and trapping, as they are very war experienced.

Specializations – Knight (9th Class, 3rd Soldier which I think makes the most sense)

Knights self have the special feature of Mounted Combat. They use basically Mounts as their “pets” to ride on them, as long the Mount Stamina allows for that.

Dragoon – specialized into Sky Jumps, very high and far jumps that allow Dragoons for better mobility and movement, which become even more powerful small AoE attacks, when they form them from their Mounts, while being in mounted combat.
They are also specialized in defensive support, through their halberd skills, which are knight like very defensive orientated. But also in ranged combat a Dragoon shouldn’t be underestimated, especially when they are in their mounted combat mode and have the advantage of shooting at their fooes from a slightly higher position. for deadly head shots with their long bows or rifles.

Marauder – the Marauder is specialized into combat with weapons like greatswords, hammers, maces and axes, their fightign style is very brutal, ya more barbaric and sinister as they don’t care about it, if they destroy something around them, as logn they kill their foes – they are more the kind of dark themed anti-knights. Deserted Knights which have no home, no goal in their life. Marauders are real good controlers, dealing lots of conditions with their attacks, like expecially Vulnerability, Weakness and Cripple.

Crusaders – specialized into Faith and Mounted Conmbat in a different way then Dragoons. While Dragoons use their Mounts in a more offensive way, Crusaders are more of the supportive/defensive type.
Crusaders are basically like Paladins, something that would theretically also fit into the Sub Class Line of the Guardian, but the guardian isn’t based on mounted combat, so Crusaders are the sacred soldiers riding on mounts, the white knights as you may call them also. They are very tough fighters, making special usage of the shield in combat like no other class in an offensive way. They are the only class able to even wield 2 shields at the same time. as Crusaders introduce also a new Shield.
With their introduction GW2 would have Shields & Tower Shields, which are larger shields for the Main Hand.

Templar – specialized into mobile offensie without mounts. They sacrifice their mounted combat skills to hone better their physical powers. Templars use Signets far more and better, than any other of the knight sub classes and are the only class, which improved Signets to “Stigmas” as their special features, which lets the foes of the Templar get punished harsh, whenever they use a Signet in their near or have in general Signets in their skill bar, Stigmas weaken the foe for every Signet in their Skill bar.
Templars are extremly useful against spellcasters, as they can create protective barriers which can destroy clones and minions, when they touch them and they have skills that reduce damage received from AoEs and conditions like burning, bleeding, confusion and torment. They have a good resistance agaisnt any kind of magic, which is why classes liek Elementalists or Mesmers rather should not go into melee combat with them, as Templars strip off also effectivly boons.

I think this an interesting concept. It would be a nice replacer for foodbuff/guard stack in wvw that wouldn’t punish poor/new players with severe disadvantages.

Hmm here’s a thought what if the sub-classes were unlocked as talent trees instead of actually classes that you use Skill points to improve.

Thats exactly what I’m suggesting by splitting up the Trait System into several different more depthful Systems.

Reminder:

• Traits – responsible for direct Skill Changes of Weapon/Utility/Healing/Elite-Skills
• Talents – responsible for passive offensive/defensive Character Effects
• Abilities – responsible for indirect constant Character Effects
• Knowledges – responsible for Skill Animation Changes and passive Background Boosts for the Character, like dealing Extra Damage towards a specific Creature Type

Talents like described above should be used also to unlock the Sub Class and giving your Character after unlocking the Sub Class Talent the various “Basic Talents” of the Sub Class, that the player can develop then into Advanced Talents to progress further.
Sub Class Talents would count as “Naturalborn Talents”, because that are specific Talents, which only a certain Basic Class can receive.

All Talents of a Character’s basic Class and chosen Sub Class would be shown in a Talent Tree, where the player has not to use Talent Points for to unlock them – no, the player has to make Experience at tasks that require a certain Talent to learn them.
Theres no limitation in learning Talents, your Character can learn all of them that belong to their chosen Basic Class/Sub Class.
Unlearnable are just naturally Talents from other Classes and if you change your Sub Class, you lose the learned Talents from your last Sub Class and you can then get the other Talents from your new chosen Sub Class.

Example: Thief

Thiefs would have as NaturalbornTalents:

Agility
Stealth
ect.

These Talents would have multiple stages that can be developed, which develop themself automatically further, the more the player makes usage of its talents.
Means, so more I use Stealth Skills in Combats, so quicker do I develop my Stealth Talent. Simple Concept.
Once you’ve learned all your Traits, that are your Basics, read a Letter defetead your unknown rival, you will learn about your Naturalborn Talents, unlockign this way your Sub Class Paths.
Talk then after a next letter with your Trainer NPC to activate a chosen Sub Class path to fulfill then several Tasks for the Trainer NPC.
After having done that, beat the Test Battle with the Trainer NPC to prove, that you’ve mastered everything, what those Tasks have teached you and you will become your chosen Sub Class and unlock it for your Account, so that you don’t have to repeat all this with twinks of the same class. (Unless you want to)

Talents would be completely different, than Traits. Traits just change after these changes, how Weapon Skills actively work. traits should become again that, what Anet originally planned for that System to be, lettingTraits work far more like the Skill Customization System of Diablo 3.
For all kinds of passive Character Effects, like gettign healed when you Dodge Roll or receiving Boons, when you block an attack and so on, that woudl be then on Stuff for Talents and not anymore Traits.
While Traits would be limitated, Talents and the other things wouldbe not, so that a more depthful Character Development would be possible.
However, also there you simply can’t have everything, because it would get indirectly limited through your chosen Sub Class, not by some kind of amount of points, that you can distribute like Traits are working so.

Abilities would be Effects like Weapon Damage increased by + 10%
These thigns would you from now on learn when you gain experience with your Weapons. So more you use your weapons, so more effectively do they become.
But also other indirect constant effects would counter unter this, like increased Boon/ Condition Times ect., which would be Abilities, that you gain through Runes, Sigills ect. would be listed up here and could get improved, so longer you are using that equipment and gaining experience with it.
Here would Characters collect AP (Ability Points like Trait Points) to decide, which indirect constant Abilities they want to use. Its basicalyl the same system, that Final Fantasy 9 used, where equipment was linked to learnable abilities.

And lastly, Knowledges would be permanent backgroundeffects, like dealign additional bonus damage to a specific creature, like undeads, elementals, trolls, skales ect. With this implemented, the sigils bonded to these effects get removed.
This kind of knowledges do you earn through killing creatures, by avoiding damage from said creatures and so on, reading books and scrolls through exploring the world and gaining that way new wisdom through exploring the world map and so on.

Yes Orpheal that will be a good and condense way to do the sub classes and bring some growth into it. You have contributed so much to this thread and I thank you for that. I wanna ask if you can create a template of the talent tree. I also feel that each branch should feature the three major things Damage , Control and Support. If you have 4 Specializations three should feature that and one tree will be a jack of all trades tree ya know?

I prepared a little something here around a Thief Example for a kind of “Talent Tree” based on my Concepts, which should show you, into which kind of direction my Concept would get in regard of beign alot more depthful Character Progression.

Sadly I’m absolutely not skilled in photoshopping and such stuff to make this as a good looking Picture of a Talent Tree, so please bare with me. I used instead Excel to help myself out xD But this should be good enough.
I’ll go a bit more into details within this post later in regard of the listed up talents.

I let the Part around Advanced Talents for now first free, because as said, this should be only a little example and the part around Advanced Taöents is also for me just too much to put all that up via Excel xD.
But I included as you can see the idea, that there should be somethign within the Chracter progression, that lets the Player decide between specializing more into either Damage, Support, or Control.
For me, the best spot for that Concept to specialize into these 3 directions is at the end, when you advance your Basic Talents and you need to decide, HOW you want to advance with your Basic Talents.

Brawler Example for the first 5 Basic Talents, to show how Talents would work. (Basically like WvW Skill Perks, very similar, just only that you don’t need to rank up somewhere, but instead just use only your Talents long enough, until you progress further – in Games like Ragnarok Online would work this under Job Experience basically- lets call it here Talent Experience)

Initiative Control 10 Ranks
Improves with increasing Talent in this the Ways, how the Brawler gains Initiative, making them the fastest Combatants of the Thief-Sub Classes.
Martial Arts 10 Ranks
Unlocks new useable Weapons (Claws, Quarterstaffs, Tonfas, Nunchucks) Brawler Utility Skills/Elite Skills
Self Defense 10 Ranks
Unlocks new Brawler Healing Skills and defensive Abilities
Endurance Training 10 Ranks
Improves with increasing Talent Endurance Regeneration, Options to gain Vigor and adds new Abilities
Body Training 10 Ranks
Improves with increasing Talent the Base Health of the Brawler and Toughness, but also adds new Abilities

Not exactly a sub-class, but I quite liked the ideas of being able to modify your skills. It’s been used in various games before, like TSW’s augment system or ESO’s morphs, something in GW2 would be like:

For Dancing Dagger (thief dagger #4), you can:

1. Keep its original form.
2. Remove the cripple, remove ability to bounce between targets, reduce damage coefficient to 0.3, but reduce initiative cost to 0.
2. Reduce damage down to 0.3, increase cripple to 6 seconds.
3. Increase cost to 4, grants self 3 seconds of Swiftness on cast.
4. Removes direct damage, bleeds foes instead.
5. Removes cripple effect, bleeds foes instead.

Altering the skill (including changing it back to its original form) costs 5 SP.

Orpheal.8263:

I prepared a little something here around a Thief Example for a kind of “Talent Tree” based on my Concepts, which should show you, into which kind of direction my Concept would get in regard of beign alot more depthful Character Progression.

Sadly I’m absolutely not skilled in photoshopping and such stuff to make this as a good looking Picture of a Talent Tree, so please bare with me. I used instead Excel to help myself out xD But this should be good enough.
I’ll go a bit more into details within this post later in regard of the listed up talents.

I let the Part around Advanced Talents for now first free, because as said, this should be only a little example and the part around Advanced Taöents is also for me just too much to put all that up via Excel xD.
But I included as you can see the idea, that there should be somethign within the Chracter progression, that lets the Player decide between specializing more into either Damage, Support, or Control.
For me, the best spot for that Concept to specialize into these 3 directions is at the end, when you advance your Basic Talents and you need to decide, HOW you want to advance with your Basic Talents.

---

Brawler Example for the first 5 Basic Talents, to show how Talents would work. (Basically like WvW Skill Perks, very similar, just only that you don’t need to rank up somewhere, but instead just use only your Talents long enough, until you progress further – in Games like Ragnarok Online would work this under Job Experience basically- lets call it here Talent Experience)

Initiative Control 10 Ranks
Improves with increasing Talent in this the Ways, how the Brawler gains Initiative, making them the fastest Combatants of the Thief-Sub Classes.
Martial Arts 10 Ranks
Unlocks new useable Weapons (Claws, Quarterstaffs, Tonfas, Nunchucks) Brawler Utility Skills/Elite Skills
Self Defense 10 Ranks
Unlocks new Brawler Healing Skills and defensive Abilities
Endurance Training 10 Ranks
Improves with increasing Talent Endurance Regeneration, Options to gain Vigor and adds new Abilities
Body Training 10 Ranks
Improves with increasing Talent the Base Health of the Brawler and Toughness, but also adds new Abilities

Alrighty I will make a template using this information using word or we can use google documents to collab on a spec together.

@Xae : That would be interesting to choose the effect you want for skills it will bring some diverse skill usage.

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

I’ve made similar posts to this before and while i support the idea, I do feel it needs to stay More simplistic than adding 2 3 or 4 more entirely new, what are basically, trait tree’s to deal with. It’s going a bit too far at that point.

I’m a veteran player of Gw1 and Gw2, and while i enjoyed the Dual Class system from Gw1 it made balance a nightmare. at the end of it all we had 10 professions, each with about 60-120 skills each that could be combined in any way. Admittedly Gw2 would be far easier to balance as we only have about 20 skills per profession… Get on that Anet.. It’s still not a good fit for Gw2. Combat works differently and a similar system doesn’t promote diversity if you allow sub classes to just absorb skills or “similar to” abilities. All this does is create a void where in 1 profession is better at X and the copy is never played because it does nothing better.

I’ll agree with you on the point that a Subclass system inherently needs a “Trade off” system, something that gw2 currently lacks on a massive scale… Want to go tank? be prepared to lose your bursts and a chunk of damage and crits for that toughness and health. Be prepared to be UNABLE to make up for that loss with an armor and weapon and trinket set as well. Want to go Full zerk? Trade in your health, toughness and self defense in general.. etc..

Sadly Trade offs on that scale would force anet to reintroduce something to the game. Something anet doesn’t really want in their new MSO (Massively solo online) which is a reason and need to find a team to play with. Healing Power, Conditions, Boons, CC, Enemy AI, Combo Fields, Profession Mechanics, Event Mechanics, NPC AI, Animations for Player Characters, these are all things Anet would have to spend a ton of time on and Gut and redo many of them.. Just to make Gw2 into an MMO where you can have Sub Classes that can Specialize into a Role and still have it make sense to be ANYTHING but the Zerker.

As it stands right now, Anet is much happier in its current Direction where in all but maybe 4 or 5 designers, artists, and coders, and the 2 man balance team, are stuck working on Living Story Content. As open to the Idea and suggestion someone at Anet might be, Remember not to make it overtly complex or something that would require work from more than … lets say 2 people.. to accomplish. Anything else seems to be Off the Table for Anet.

So..

• Traits – responsible for direct Skill Changes of Weapon/Utility/Healing/Elite-Skills
• Talents – responsible for passive offensive/defensive Character Effects
• Abilities – responsible for indirect constant Character Effects
  * Knowledges – responsible for Skill Animation Changes and passive Background Boosts for the Character, like dealing Extra Damage towards a specific Creature Type

Keep Traits – this system works pretty well as it stands.. some classes have it better than others but hey..

Maybe Keep Talents- But IMO, rather than creating a second tree under the first tree, just role this back and create an entirely new Trait/Skill tree for a Sub Class. Change the Mechanic, disable and replace some skills, add the inherent gains/losses of the sub class and leave the rest up to the trait lines.

Ditch Abilites and Role it into Profession Mechanics under the old trait and skill system, add some Signets = no need for an extra tree.

Knowledges – Cute idea for those that Play PvE only, Ultimately something you’d want on a Wish list considering the Animations part listed. You can scrap this as well.

McWolfy.5924:

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

ANet just seems to be afraid to do anything. Judging by how much effort they went into to make the LS (the results are arguable), adding more skills seems like a molehill of a task compared to that mountain.

So the only conclusion I can make is that they’re just too scared that it would screw up balance in the game.

Xae Isareth.1364:

McWolfy.5924:

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

ANet just seems to be afraid to do anything. Judging by how much effort they went into to make the LS (the results are arguable), adding more skills seems like a molehill of a task compared to that mountain.

So the only conclusion I can make is that they’re just too scared that it would screw up balance in the game.

That is actually the reason why new skills aren’t in yet they have to make sure the balance is equal across all 3 game modes basically and its no easy task.

Ferever.7014:

Xae Isareth.1364:

McWolfy.5924:

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

ANet just seems to be afraid to do anything. Judging by how much effort they went into to make the LS (the results are arguable), adding more skills seems like a molehill of a task compared to that mountain.

So the only conclusion I can make is that they’re just too scared that it would screw up balance in the game.

That is actually the reason why new skills aren’t in yet they have to make sure the balance is equal across all 3 game modes basically and its no easy task.

It’s an impossible task. No MMO has ever reached perfect balance. Perfect balance is only attainable if you just stop updating the game altogether.

If you stop updating your MMO, then it’s dead.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ferever.7014:

Xae Isareth.1364:

McWolfy.5924:

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

ANet just seems to be afraid to do anything. Judging by how much effort they went into to make the LS (the results are arguable), adding more skills seems like a molehill of a task compared to that mountain.

So the only conclusion I can make is that they’re just too scared that it would screw up balance in the game.

That is actually the reason why new skills aren’t in yet they have to make sure the balance is equal across all 3 game modes basically and its no easy task.

It’s an impossible task. No MMO has ever reached perfect balance. Perfect balance is only attainable if you just stop updating the game altogether.

If you stop updating your MMO, then it’s dead.

Correct with most MMOs nowadays they have to update to compete ,but that is another topic for another thread though.

Ferever.7014:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ferever.7014:

Xae Isareth.1364:

McWolfy.5924:

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

ANet just seems to be afraid to do anything. Judging by how much effort they went into to make the LS (the results are arguable), adding more skills seems like a molehill of a task compared to that mountain.

So the only conclusion I can make is that they’re just too scared that it would screw up balance in the game.

That is actually the reason why new skills aren’t in yet they have to make sure the balance is equal across all 3 game modes basically and its no easy task.

It’s an impossible task. No MMO has ever reached perfect balance. Perfect balance is only attainable if you just stop updating the game altogether.

If you stop updating your MMO, then it’s dead.

Correct with most MMOs nowadays they have to update to compete ,but that is another topic for another thread though.

But that’s exactly the problem. It gets boring after 2 years of using the same set of skills, the same set of traits over and over.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ferever.7014:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Ferever.7014:

Xae Isareth.1364:

McWolfy.5924:

Gw1 was dual professions. I miss that and the body block system.
Btw this game realy needs something realy new. No serious changes in the last 2 years.

ANet just seems to be afraid to do anything. Judging by how much effort they went into to make the LS (the results are arguable), adding more skills seems like a molehill of a task compared to that mountain.

So the only conclusion I can make is that they’re just too scared that it would screw up balance in the game.

That is actually the reason why new skills aren’t in yet they have to make sure the balance is equal across all 3 game modes basically and its no easy task.

It’s an impossible task. No MMO has ever reached perfect balance. Perfect balance is only attainable if you just stop updating the game altogether.

If you stop updating your MMO, then it’s dead.

Correct with most MMOs nowadays they have to update to compete ,but that is another topic for another thread though.

But that’s exactly the problem. It gets boring after 2 years of using the same set of skills, the same set of traits over and over.

Hmm you bring a good point ,but for now the sub-classes discussion will be going on now.

As for the start of season 2 would we see traits to make theses come true?

Ferever.7014:

killahmayne.9518:

I want to be a warrior and a thief :O

Note: The term sub-classes are not dual profession as stated in GW2 ,but in terms of class advancements in other MMOs.

So more like class evolutions ala Ragnarok Online.

It would be pretty kittenin’ to go from Necromancer to Lich. Give me my massive undead army, Anet!

Lich is no Class. Lichs are Undeads and being undead you can consider as a “Species”.
But its no class, no job, that you can learn.

The most powerful form of a Minion Master that is able to summon alot of creatures.
We rember, GW1 Necros were able to have like 10 Summons) would be called Occultists, because Occultists are basically the major description for the Necromancer Class.

The occult magics include much more, than only summoning undeads and spirits.
Demonology is also a huge aspect of it. Occult Rituals to form pacts or do make sacrifices to power up your skills and abilities to a state that is stronger than normal due to the help from the power of a called demon that needs to awake by performing a Pact Ritual or Blood Ritual.
Sacrificing the Souls of your summoned Minions to get the power to transform self into a kind of Half Demon temporarely.
Thats the kind of things, that make a Necromancer more into the kind of dark summoner, that they should be, not being feared of getting help from something evil inside you, when it helps them to fight for what they think is right.

However, your right, GW2 needs Class Evolution like RO. its the best thign anet can do for better horizontal Character Progression, that is also alot easier to balance, than to pump the game full with complete seperate new classes.

And its more depthful and interesting, than to add just only 1 new class for a long time, what will just end only in the game becoming boring again alot quicke,r as when anet could potentially add over a much larger time span for all Basic Classes every now and then some new Sub Classes to increase the Build Diversity and Character Individualization with them alot more and better for everyone.

Subclasses don’t need to do anything that’s already being done, and they shouldn’t take away any options the players currently have.

Cutting up traits, skills, or weapons into locked, arbitrary groupings will only reduce build diversity.

What could actually enhance the gameplay experience would be to open up something that is currently closed. That’s why my proposal is for an Archetype system. An archetype binds together options for the following functions, which are currently fixed for each profession:

• Primary mechanic
• Armor class (& base health)
• Theme

The result of changing these three pieces is that you have a completely different puzzle. Traits, weapon selection, and utilities would remain mostly the same across a profession’s archetypes, but the way they use those things may be adjusted in small or large ways.

EXAMPLE

• Fury Elementalist
• Heavy armor
• Theme: summoner, leader
• Primary Mechanic: Call Furies
  • Attunement no longer changes your weapon skills. Weapon skills are stripped of elemental nature entirely. The F1-4 skills summon elemental “furies.” Furies do not have health, and are immune to all attacks. You can only have one type of fury out at a time, but you can have up to three of them. Each weapon skill slot contains an embedded command to your furies, (meaning there are five different commands), which each type of fury reacts to differently.
• The fury elementalist is mostly a front-line fighter. They have adapted to using a staff as a melee weapon, but most of their other weapon skills feel similar to select existing ones, even if the visual effects are different.
• Much of their functionality comes from commanding the furies with every attack. They might bumb-rush opponents to apply conditions or control effects, or form a defensive line and provide allies with buffs, or explode for a powerful effect while leaving a combo field where they stood.

By changing what we couldn’t change before, we open up a new style of gameplay while maintaining as much of the base archetype as possible. It’s like getting a whole new profession for a fraction of the work.