Guild Wars 2

Zerker is not the problem but rather the fact that the PvE content allows cheddar to happen in conjunction with the combat augmentations of the stat archetype along with the talent trait augmentation and some silly things like the fact that you can land every ice bolt from ice storm using the conjured icebow.

I would have less of a problem with it if lupi actually spazzed out if you tried to push him into walls. Giving bosses a full stack of defiance before engage would be a nice hot-change to implement to counter the constant might-prestack AoE strats and kill boss before it does anything mentality.

Zerker is not broken, the content is broken, the problem is that we continue to take advantage of it so the solution is to fix the content.

Dedlaw.9130:

Devs don’t determine what the meta is, players do. Players figure out which of the viable options is the most effective.

And damage was always suppose to take priority. Yes, all builds should be viable, but all builds have one thing in common – damage. All classes were made into DPS with different types of tanking and healing spread out over different builds. It’s why you can’t constantly heal or defend – at some point you have to stop and do damage.

So for the players looking to optimize their gameplay, it was just a matter of seeing what does the most damage. If you nerf zerker then something else will just take it’s place. As long as there are people who min/max, there will be a meta and some damage dealing build will be it. Nothing ANet does, no amount of balancing/nerfing/encouraging/restricting, will ever change that.

Would adding to the game’s mechanical depth, and implementing additional mechanics that can take advantage of alternate gearing choices be a good start?

The lack of meaningful interaction with defensive stats is a part of the problem. If it were really a part of the control dynamic, then defensive stats would be of use to punish an enemy’s attack in order to leave them more vulnerable in some capacity to player assault, with a tradeoff to make it more risky for the player as well when they are playing optimally in this dimension of combat.

Instead, you can just take some extra hits to get the long, boring road to victory, without any meaningful gameplay changes. It makes the choice for the best gameplay rather clear, and I find that wholly uninteresting.

The ways in which skillfull play can be expressed in the game are too limited in scope. I play the same whether I have nomad gear or berserker gear anyway, since the core of my strategy really does not change. Aegis, reflection, blind, protection, might, weakness, vigor, stability, all the support I need right there, easily within reach. Then I can slap on gear to control how much harder I hit the enemy with my attacks. Even when not dps focused, my gear allows me the damage I want while still giving close to maximum support.

There is no equivalent to that with a defensive setup. No effect on abilities like offensive gear, no equivalent active ability to dodging that can be utilised to take advantage of one’s sturdier nature to throw the enemy for a loop, just the same tankiness as in regular trinity games, implemented in a game that has prided itself on no longer having the trinity. If the game is going to keep the same stats, there needs to be some innovation in this area.

Nothing needs to be removed, berserker is fine as it is, but things need to be added so that a player who wants to be able to go toe to toe with the enemy has to utilise all of their abilities with perfect efficiency no matter the armor they wear or traits they use, and bring killing times closer together whether you are hitting like a truck or opening the enemy to further damage. Changes that would allow one to express skill in multiple ways, allowing for more avenues by which one can enjoy the combat.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Zerker is not the problem but rather the fact that the PvE content allows cheddar to happen in conjunction with the combat augmentations of the stat archetype along with the talent trait augmentation and some silly things like the fact that you can land every ice bolt from ice storm using the conjured icebow.

I would have less of a problem with it if lupi actually spazzed out if you tried to push him into walls. Giving bosses a full stack of defiance before engage would be a nice hot-change to implement to counter the constant might-prestack AoE strats and kill boss before it does anything mentality.

Zerker is not broken, the content is broken, the problem is that we continue to take advantage of it so the solution is to fix the content.

The scaling issues that the April patch created do need fixing. That’d address most of the issues people complain about (deep freeze then kill before an attack happens). I do agree on the lupi thing as well, he can be pushed to the wall and made substantially easier, esp if you do the reflect nonsense.

But, most of the level 80 content can’t simply be burned through. Taking necessary precautions is very important. An Arah path will get substantially easier when you take a thief/engi and a guard/mes. If it was all about DPS you’d simply bring a ton of Ele’s and maybe a mesmer for portal tricks to safe running time.

Damage is important, and it does make things go quicker, but the only places you can substitute pure damage for tactical use of utilities is in AC where you can blow things up so fast that they don’t get the chance to attack back, and that’s because of poor scaling allowing bosses to be downed within the use of 2 IB4’s.

Even SEp1 you’ll want reflects + Stability at the first 3 major encounters, and the last stability is still very nice for that knockback.

The solution isn’t to punish players for playing a certain way; they need to remove punishments from other builds. This is a bigger problem than just adding another buff to bosses that annoy players, the encounters need to be build from the ground up with this kind of stuff in mind.

Add boss mechanics where you have to interrupt the boss or he one shots the group; the stability buff is no longer needed because spamming stuns and knockbacks are going to leave you with no options when the boss does his big attack that you have to interrupt to survive. If the boss is still spammed with interrupts, you can give them a few stacks of the stability buff when he starts his big cast so you have to use multiple interrupts to actually stop him.

Add trash mobs that are resistant to physical damage and weak to condition damage; these exist in the game right now, but they could be used in all of the dungeons in some capacity; namely to some trash that spawn in boss fights.

These examples don’t have to be the only solution to the problem; but I think the way to fix the problem is that ArenaNet need to design better fights; and they have with Tequatl and Triple Trouble… but they still have a lot of work to do on smaller scale bosses.

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Zerker is not the problem but rather the fact that the PvE content allows cheddar to happen in conjunction with the combat augmentations of the stat archetype along with the talent trait augmentation and some silly things like the fact that you can land every ice bolt from ice storm using the conjured icebow.

I would have less of a problem with it if lupi actually spazzed out if you tried to push him into walls. Giving bosses a full stack of defiance before engage would be a nice hot-change to implement to counter the constant might-prestack AoE strats and kill boss before it does anything mentality.

Zerker is not broken, the content is broken, the problem is that we continue to take advantage of it so the solution is to fix the content.

The scaling issues that the April patch created do need fixing. That’d address most of the issues people complain about (deep freeze then kill before an attack happens). I do agree on the lupi thing as well, he can be pushed to the wall and made substantially easier, esp if you do the reflect nonsense.

But, most of the level 80 content can’t simply be burned through. Taking necessary precautions is very important. An Arah path will get substantially easier when you take a thief/engi and a guard/mes. If it was all about DPS you’d simply bring a ton of Ele’s and maybe a mesmer for portal tricks to safe running time.

Damage is important, and it does make things go quicker, but the only places you can substitute pure damage for tactical use of utilities is in AC where you can blow things up so fast that they don’t get the chance to attack back, and that’s because of poor scaling allowing bosses to be downed within the use of 2 IB4’s.

Even SEp1 you’ll want reflects + Stability at the first 3 major encounters, and the last stability is still very nice for that knockback.

I believe almost every boss in SEp1 can be exploded. The common go to for the 3 golems for example would require the reflect and stability if you were to go toe to toe with it yes that is correct but otherwise goes down instantly to a pre stack and ice storm rotation.

I do not see the connection between your all about DPS comment in conjunction with the ele and Mesmer statement as both of these professions can still perform competitively in dungeon crawling with great utility weapons like focus on ele which provide projectile denial and invulnerability.

There is no “Zerker” Problem. We have the same dungeons for over 2 years now. Even Casuals have learnt the fights, what you need there, how to dodge the bosses attacks, etc.
Just think back a bit in time, when “zerkers” (how i hate that word) were kicked for constantly dying and stuff.
Just imagine if they announce a new expansion tomorrow, with new dungeons that are more difficult than even arah or highlevel fractals. I predict that than the lfg will be full again of groups that are looking for heal guardians, pvt players and ranged players.

Anet, please nerf rock. Paper is fine.

Love, Scissors.

I don’t understand how “Don’t join parties that want to speedrun without the right gear” is still a problem that requires so much discussion.

There’s no meta. you can play how you want to, but being courteous takes precedence. If a tired party just wants to speedrun TA or whatever dungeon or instance, don’t slow them down by carrying a build not focused on damaged. They’re experienced; theyll rev you if you down and will rarely down to begin with. Its just like being free to use an escalator but at the same time allowing people that want to walk up it to do so by keeping to the right side.

That’s not even a problem that needs to be addressed. Thats looking for an excuse to impede speedrunning parties.

What’s even more confusing is “force them to take longer” is the penultimate solution all these threads reach, when that would do little or nothing to change the armor sets of players who actually know what to avoid, when.

Can someone explain this plainly to me? Why is the “zerker meta” a problem? how is it impeding anyone running a dungeon?

Lendruil.9061:

There is no “Zerker” Problem. We have the same dungeons for over 2 years now. Even Casuals have learnt the fights, what you need there, how to dodge the bosses attacks, etc.
Just think back a bit in time, when “zerkers” (how i hate that word) were kicked for constantly dying and stuff.
Just imagine if they announce a new expansion tomorrow, with new dungeons that are more difficult than even arah or highlevel fractals. I predict that than the lfg will be full again of groups that are looking for heal guardians, pvt players and ranged players.

>high level fractals
>difficult

no

and as far as your bolded statement is concerned, we are still in the same situation the only difference is who is getting booted, but otherwise its the same god kitten thing.

and lets be clear that any lop sided meta is stupid whether it be the zerker meta or a pvt meta.

Oh and by the way, if the new content is anything to speculate about, pretty sure that full offense setups are still going to be around as pretty much all of that is easier in full offensive gear especially the challenge motes.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Jerus.4350:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Zerker is not the problem but rather the fact that the PvE content allows cheddar to happen in conjunction with the combat augmentations of the stat archetype along with the talent trait augmentation and some silly things like the fact that you can land every ice bolt from ice storm using the conjured icebow.

I would have less of a problem with it if lupi actually spazzed out if you tried to push him into walls. Giving bosses a full stack of defiance before engage would be a nice hot-change to implement to counter the constant might-prestack AoE strats and kill boss before it does anything mentality.

Zerker is not broken, the content is broken, the problem is that we continue to take advantage of it so the solution is to fix the content.

The scaling issues that the April patch created do need fixing. That’d address most of the issues people complain about (deep freeze then kill before an attack happens). I do agree on the lupi thing as well, he can be pushed to the wall and made substantially easier, esp if you do the reflect nonsense.

But, most of the level 80 content can’t simply be burned through. Taking necessary precautions is very important. An Arah path will get substantially easier when you take a thief/engi and a guard/mes. If it was all about DPS you’d simply bring a ton of Ele’s and maybe a mesmer for portal tricks to safe running time.

Damage is important, and it does make things go quicker, but the only places you can substitute pure damage for tactical use of utilities is in AC where you can blow things up so fast that they don’t get the chance to attack back, and that’s because of poor scaling allowing bosses to be downed within the use of 2 IB4’s.

Even SEp1 you’ll want reflects + Stability at the first 3 major encounters, and the last stability is still very nice for that knockback.

I believe almost every boss in SEp1 can be exploded. The common go to for the 3 golems for example would require the reflect and stability if you were to go toe to toe with it yes that is correct but otherwise goes down instantly to a pre stack and ice storm rotation.

I do not see the connection between your all about DPS comment in conjunction with the ele and Mesmer statement as both of these professions can still perform competitively in dungeon crawling with great utility weapons like focus on ele which provide projectile denial and invulnerability.

True, you can kill all the SEp1 stuff fast enough, but I have trouble finding pugs that will even pick up my second Ice bow , but still that’s going to be affected by the scaling issues most likely as well… I can’t say for sure, I only know that AC pre april and post april seemed to go down much faster, I remember SQ being 3-4 FGS rushes (and the other stuff on top of it) to it being dead by the time the first 2 rushes went through.

As for my point with the Ele/Mes thing, it’s simply that even the people who are capable of running that through dungeons will find they prefer to have other options in their daily tours, going for a record maybe no, but the power in utility is surely there. If it were about only DPS there’d be “Ele only” posts in LFG, but I’ve yet to see that.

maddoctor.2738:

Harper.4173:

tigirius.9014:

Make bosses have a building crit damage resistance buff. Think about it why should CC suffer CC doesn’t kill bosses and Condi damage already has a limitation because it’s built poorly (max stacking), so fix the crit Zerker mentality by making bosses require coordination by giving them a significant buff against crit burst damage skills then parties would be required to have multiple build types and the Zerker build parties would be dead.

Why?
So people can now enforce the “Knight’s meta” ? Or the PVT Meta?
How would that be better?

World bosses that cannot be critted are already in their PVT Meta (like Tequatl)

Agreed – but why is being kicked because you’re not full PVT better than being kicked because you’re not full zerker?

Here’s an alternative solution to the “zerker problem”:

1. Gear that does not provide at least moderate power now provides moderate power in PvE only.
2. Gear that does not provide at least moderate precision now provides moderate precision in PvE only.
3. Gear that does not provide at least moderate ferocity now provides moderate ferocity in PvE only.
4. If (1) through (3) add stats to an item that were not previously present, this is counterbalanced by imposing a personal economic debuff on the player in PvE. This could be anything from -60% gold find to having a chance for certain drops such as precursors to autosalvage on pickup, etc.

Effects:

• A player can never ‘hold back their comrades’ or damage their comrades’ enjoyment of content by gearing defensively (although they might still do so due to lack of skill).
• The tradeoff being made is clear — more forgiving content, at the cost of inferior rewards.

Or another, completely non-serious alternative solution:

• Incoming damage receives a multiplier that scales quadratically with the player’s vitality and toughness.

Effects:

• Everyone will wear maximum defence gear at all times.

Flaws:

• It would still be zerker or ’sin gear.

That said, the problem that does exist isn’t people getting kicked from dungeons, it’s the proliferation of prefixes that only have incredibly niche uses in PvE. The ‘true’ solution, which might cause riots, would be to wipe the slate clean and introduce a new, much smaller set of prefixes.

nexxe.7081:

I find it funny how some of you think that it’s not a problem. Yes, OP can play how he wants, but that’s just avoiding the problem altogether. The zerker playstyle was never intended. It just became the preferred de-facto meta, because it’s more efficient, and it’s borderline exploiting the A.I. mechanics. Anet just gives it a pass because they refuse to update the A.I. in old dungeons.

Stacking on a boss isn’t tactical at all, and it’s outright laughable. Any other MMO, even action-combat ones, don’t even have this. They have A.I. that responds accordingly to mindless gameplay like this.

Living story bosses are even more challenging. Anet has proved this, but they just don’t want to update the old dungeons with better A.I., as was said during that video interview during feature pack 2.

The AI is not going to get updated because :

1)It’s not as easy as you might think reworking all the mobs in the game.

2)Making it harder will make it too hard for the majority of GW2’s population. Taking their empowerment fantasy and breaking it using better AI will result in unhappy people – which results in less gem store sales.

GW2 AI is simple because GW2 caters to a casual crowd that needs to win easily. If they didn’t want to win easily they would be playing other more hardcore oriented games.

Also if stacking on a boss isn’t tactical can you tell me what is?

Is ranging from 1200 away while kiting tactical?
Is afk ranging from safe spots tactical?

I can see that alot of people are still asleep when it comes to what’s best for the game here considering the number of “don’t do it” posts that have exactly 0 to say as an alternative or that are posting nonsense about it.

~ It is broken.
~ This meta shouldn’t exist as the sole means to play the game.
~ Balance doesn’t exist.

Until these things are fixed the game will remain as bad as it is for the rest of the community it’s affecting the game in the same terrible ways that Gearscore and DPS Meters have on other titles. If you don’t care about that then you don’t care about the game and you don’t care about your community so some of you are showing your true colors in your replies here today.

nexxe.7081:

Dedlaw.9130:

nexxe.7081:

I find it funny how some of you think that it’s not a problem. Yes, OP can play how he wants, but that’s just avoiding the problem altogether. The zerker playstyle was never intended. It just became the preferred de-facto meta, because it’s more efficient, and it’s borderline exploiting the A.I. mechanics. Anet just gives it a pass because they refuse to update the A.I. in old dungeons.

Stacking on a boss isn’t tactical at all, and it’s outright laughable. Any other MMO, even action-combat ones, don’t even have this. They have A.I. that responds accordingly to mindless gameplay like this.

Living story bosses are even more challenging. Anet has proved this, but they just don’t want to update the old dungeons with better A.I., as was said during that video interview during feature pack 2.

So you’re saying playing as a glass cannon was not intended? In a game where damage takes priority over defence or healing? Where damage avoidance is encouraged over damage reduction?

I should’ve clarified more. It was never intended to be a meta playstyle. All playstyles were intended, but the zerker meta became the de-facto meta by the community. It was never intended by the developers, and it was also never encouraged or restricted by the devs (from what i’ve read anyway).

Damage was never supposed to take priority over anything else. The self-reliance of the individual was/is the intended playstyle. This is why all classes got a healing and dodge skill. This is why the traditional trinity playstyle doesn’t work in GW2.

Damage avoidance is only preferred because of dodge, but that doesn’t mean it was ever intended to replace damage reduction.

This just proves that gw2 needs balancing for all different playstyles, otherwise you have one role, which ironically, gives less choice than a trinity mmorpg.

You do realize a play style will eventually become the “de facto playstyle” because of the community.

That play style is usually the one that gets the job done fastest and even if zerker wasn’t the meta ( because of changes) the next-in-line fastest solution would be.

Damage avoidance replaces damage reduction for those who are skilled enough. I would say for the majority of GW2’s players damage avoidance does not replace damage reduction because the majority of players aren’t full zerker specs.

The majority needs that damage reduction because the majority can’t really play that well.

The fact that pure glass is viable for good and very good players is a side-effect of the fact that the game is aimed at the average and below average in terms of skill level.

Since it’s designed to be manageable for someone of low or average skill it becomes easier the more skilled you are.

A game can’t simultaneously be easy for the less skilled and hard for the very skilled.

Also you don’t seem to differentiate between role and gear choice which are two entirely different things.

Example :

A warrior in full zerk with a GS or AXE could be considered DPS.
A warrior in full zerk with a hammer or mace is Control.
A warrior in full zerk traited for banners is Support.

They have the same gear – they have different roles in the fight and different things they bring to their party.

tigirius.9014:

I can see that alot of people are still asleep when it comes to what’s best for the game here considering the number of “don’t do it” posts that have exactly 0 to say as an alternative or that are posting nonsense about it.

~ It is broken.
~ This meta shouldn’t exist as the sole means to play the game.
~ Balance doesn’t exist.

Until these things are fixed the game will remain as bad as it is for the rest of the community it’s affecting the game in the same terrible ways that Gearscore and DPS Meters have on other titles. If you don’t care about that then you don’t care about the game and you don’t care about your community so some of you are showing your true colors in your replies here today.

I am glad I’m playing the game developed by ANet according to their philosophy and not yours.

Harper.4173:

nexxe.7081:

Dedlaw.9130:

nexxe.7081:

I find it funny how some of you think that it’s not a problem. Yes, OP can play how he wants, but that’s just avoiding the problem altogether. The zerker playstyle was never intended. It just became the preferred de-facto meta, because it’s more efficient, and it’s borderline exploiting the A.I. mechanics. Anet just gives it a pass because they refuse to update the A.I. in old dungeons.

Stacking on a boss isn’t tactical at all, and it’s outright laughable. Any other MMO, even action-combat ones, don’t even have this. They have A.I. that responds accordingly to mindless gameplay like this.

Living story bosses are even more challenging. Anet has proved this, but they just don’t want to update the old dungeons with better A.I., as was said during that video interview during feature pack 2.

So you’re saying playing as a glass cannon was not intended? In a game where damage takes priority over defence or healing? Where damage avoidance is encouraged over damage reduction?

I should’ve clarified more. It was never intended to be a meta playstyle. All playstyles were intended, but the zerker meta became the de-facto meta by the community. It was never intended by the developers, and it was also never encouraged or restricted by the devs (from what i’ve read anyway).

Damage was never supposed to take priority over anything else. The self-reliance of the individual was/is the intended playstyle. This is why all classes got a healing and dodge skill. This is why the traditional trinity playstyle doesn’t work in GW2.

Damage avoidance is only preferred because of dodge, but that doesn’t mean it was ever intended to replace damage reduction.

This just proves that gw2 needs balancing for all different playstyles, otherwise you have one role, which ironically, gives less choice than a trinity mmorpg.

You do realize a play style will eventually become the “de facto playstyle” because of the community.

That play style is usually the one that gets the job done fastest and even if zerker wasn’t the meta ( because of changes) the next-in-line fastest solution would be.

Damage avoidance replaces damage reduction for those who are skilled enough. I would say for the majority of GW2’s players damage avoidance does not replace damage reduction because the majority of players aren’t full zerker specs.

The majority needs that damage reduction because the majority can’t really play that well.

The fact that pure glass is viable for good and very good players is a side-effect of the fact that the game is aimed at the average and below average in terms of skill level.

Since it’s designed to be manageable for someone of low or average skill it becomes easier the more skilled you are.

A game can’t simultaneously be easy for the less skilled and hard for the very skilled.

Also you don’t seem to differentiate between role and gear choice which are two entirely different things.

Example :

A warrior in full zerk with a GS or AXE could be considered DPS.
A warrior in full zerk with a hammer or mace is Control.
A warrior in full zerk traited for banners is Support.

They have the same gear – they have different roles in the fight and different things they bring to their party.

It actually doesn’t when balanced properly. You see, other games that use the triple talent system for developing DPS characters don’t require that someone be that 1 single spec to play above all others because there are other things that are needed that help with strategic gameplay that allow for the other specs to play. For example, when bosses aren’t the 1 killshot enormous amount of health meta we see players coming together in order to coordinate. That doesn’t happen in this game, everyone simply must be zerker and rush through it as quickly as possible. It’s not coordination it’s finding exploits so use while you’re enormously squishy (unless you play Warrior of course) and you simply must follow the crowd or you can do nothing because you’re kicked from every group.

I have news for you, that’s not balanced.

X T D.6458:

If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you.

well, I can’t speak for clerics, but that there condition cap sure does put a massive hole in your statement. does someone else on your team do bleeds? yes? well, aren’t you just useless now!

X T D.6458:

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

though, to be fair to you, you do recognise this, to some extent.

I will disagree that there is no coordination as combat rotations like that do require synchronization of player abilities. I will state that not enough dynamic forces get applied against it with reasonable force.

Harper.4173:

You do realize a play style will eventually become the “de facto playstyle” because of the community.

That play style is usually the one that gets the job done fastest and even if zerker wasn’t the meta ( because of changes) the next-in-line fastest solution would be.

Damage avoidance replaces damage reduction for those who are skilled enough. I would say for the majority of GW2’s players damage avoidance does not replace damage reduction because the majority of players aren’t full zerker specs.

The majority needs that damage reduction because the majority can’t really play that well.

The fact that pure glass is viable for good and very good players is a side-effect of the fact that the game is aimed at the average and below average in terms of skill level.

Since it’s designed to be manageable for someone of low or average skill it becomes easier the more skilled you are.

A game can’t simultaneously be easy for the less skilled and hard for the very skilled.

Also you don’t seem to differentiate between role and gear choice which are two entirely different things.

Example :

A warrior in full zerk with a GS or AXE could be considered DPS.
A warrior in full zerk with a hammer or mace is Control.
A warrior in full zerk traited for banners is Support.

They have the same gear – they have different roles in the fight and different things they bring to their party.

Then why can the same not apply to those who decide to put on defensive gear? Why has the game completely ignored the contribution of defensive stats when it comes to combat encounters in PvE? It is not that difficult to come up with alternative methods to allow for similar clearing times and risk/reward dynamics.

You can increase the damage output of your offensive abilities with offensive stats, but putting on defensive gear doesn nothing for your abilities, and the game just expects you to sit there and take hits without providing mechanics to allow you to take advantage of your gear choice to hasten the defeat of your enemy. Punishing the enemy for attacking you is the simplest of mechanics that could be implemented in this way, but Anet has done nothing special in comparison to regular trinity games in that regard.

Why implement stats if you’re not going to do anything of note with them? Stats may as well not exist in that case, and GW2 should implement a system that completely relies upon ability modifying traits, runes and sigils. At least the game would not pretend it has more depth than it actually does. Then it would be an actual choice, rather than having the game pretend it has more depth than it actually does.

All this zerker hate makes no sense to me. It’s just a freaking gear set. Every game has an optimal dps gear set. That’s part of mmo game design. WoW has heroic raid gears that does the best dps. Are the wow players going to complain that Raid gears need to be nerfed so pvp gears can do the same dps as raid gears in dungeons?

There is no problems here to be fixed. Players who are complaining need to realize it’s a self-created perception problem. Just look at it as zerker = dungeon gear for optimal runs. PVT = WvW zerg gear. And if you want to go your own route then you can mix and match gears. Every gear sets can succeed. Just because one set can do it faster doesn’t mean it needs to be “fixed”. That’s how it should be.

tigirius.9014:

It actually doesn’t when balanced properly. You see, other games that use the triple talent system for developing DPS characters don’t require that someone be that 1 single spec to play above all others because there are other things that are needed that help with strategic gameplay that allow for the other specs to play.

Thats completely incorrect. Other games do have single top dps specs. The difference between other games and gw2 is that the casual community is heavily exposed to the meta crowd in gw2. Whereas in other games its not considered as important in pug groups. But the guild groups and the people running for maximum efficiency are being just as restrictive as we are in GW2 (if not more).

And talking about things that are needed. Introducing needed roles creates even more elitism and exclusion. But the overall most efficient composition is just as restrictive as it is in GW2. Its impossible to have two different approaches with equal efficiency. Especially if one of your approaches is sacrifising damage for defence. Simple logic.

tigirius.9014:

(Snipped)

Prior to making that post, you hadn’t even tried to provide any reasoning as to why you thought that there was a problem in need of fixing. Yet you see fit to label people who provide an equally compelling argument in opposition to yours as enemies of the game? Hypocrisy much?

And even with the post I’ve linked here, would you care to elaborate on literally any of the points you raised so that people can actually debate you instead of this thread turning into some pointless “yuh-uh”, “nuh-uh” crapfest?

Revert suggestions for all people wanting to introduce mechanisms to avoid berserker gear to achieve its optimal damage :
- If you have more than 2000 power, you have a bonus of Vitality, even more when you reach 2400
-If boss is immune to crit every critical damage you would do is returned as heal
-For every percentage of crit above 50, you gain 1% of toughness

I mean berserker prefix is max damage so if you want it to not achieve max damage then give something back.

In the same idea since full toughness/vitality/healing power sets are too resilient, why not introduce over complicated mechanisms on boss that reduce your defense every minute of a fight? Some special skills also that would corrupt your heals into damage ?

If everyone start to think about how to make what he doesn’t play weaker, I’m sure everyone will be very (un-)imaginative…..

Ranael.6423:

Revert suggestions for all people wanting to introduce mechanisms to avoid berserker gear to achieve its optimal damage :
- If you have more than 2000 power, you have a bonus of Vitality, even more when you reach 2400
-If boss is immune to crit every critical damage you would do is returned as heal
-For every percentage of crit above 50, you gain 1% of toughness

I mean berserker prefix is max damage so if you want it to not achieve max damage then give something back.

In the same idea since full toughness/vitality/healing power sets are too resilient, why not introduce over complicated mechanisms on boss that reduce your defense every minute of a fight? Some special skills also that would corrupt your heals into damage ?

If everyone start to think about how to make what he doesn’t play weaker, I’m sure everyone will be very (un-)imaginative…..

It’s kinda getting silly. Why not just save all that complicated programming and just give everyone the same set of gears, no diversity at all. That will end all this complaints that his gear is better than mine. Heck we could go even further and delete all 7 professions and make one profession and only allow one build. Everyone will play the exact same character just have a different skin. Sadly, even then players will find other things to complain about. This is really a non-issue.

hyperbole doesn’t lend to credibility.

This can be fixed in a way by introducing sPvP mechanics like they did with the toxic alliance, different state types for enemies, low armor, high armor, low damage, high damage, low health, high health, high evasive, sigil sets, rune sets, moving around, AI tendencies, etc etc.

This game is balanced around PvP so the PvE should reflect that.

Then again I don’t need to really repeat this as well, we will wait for what Dave Mark has to say in regards to GW2 come PAX South, I suggest you guys tune in.

Spoj The Second.7680:

tigirius.9014:

It actually doesn’t when balanced properly. You see, other games that use the triple talent system for developing DPS characters don’t require that someone be that 1 single spec to play above all others because there are other things that are needed that help with strategic gameplay that allow for the other specs to play.

Thats completely incorrect. Other games do have single top dps specs. The difference between other games and gw2 is that the casual community is heavily exposed to the meta crowd in gw2. Whereas in other games its not considered as important in pug groups. But the guild groups and the people running for maximum efficiency are being just as restrictive as we are in GW2 (if not more).

And talking about things that are needed. Introducing needed roles creates even more elitism and exclusion. But the overall most efficient composition is just as restrictive as it is in GW2. Its impossible to have two different approaches with equal efficiency. Especially if one of your approaches is sacrifising damage for defence. Simple logic.

In EQ we had raids that capped out at 54 people, like all the higher end guilds we ran rosters of 50-80 people per night. Your spot in the raid was determined on how well you performed. Your DPS was measurable with parsers and if you were a DPS class you got to ride the pine if you were performing poorly, and usually we’d ask that they do a bit of training/learning from our better performers. DCUO was the same way though with max raids of 8.

Like Spoj said though, the difference was the exposure of the casual crowd to that type of play. Generally your casual players weren’t in the same groups as your more hardcore. Raids were almost always done in the guilds, and groups were from private channels. We had channels in both games that were invite only and basically collections of quality players. Imagine if every “elitist” were able to avoid the LFG tool and instead recruit groups from the /elitist chat channel? That was the big difference in the communities IMO, “Elitists” could avoid the more casual and in doing so clashes occurred much less often.

Spoj The Second.7680:

tigirius.9014:

It actually doesn’t when balanced properly. You see, other games that use the triple talent system for developing DPS characters don’t require that someone be that 1 single spec to play above all others because there are other things that are needed that help with strategic gameplay that allow for the other specs to play.

Thats completely incorrect. Other games do have single top dps specs. The difference between other games and gw2 is that the casual community is heavily exposed to the meta crowd in gw2. Whereas in other games its not considered as important in pug groups. But the guild groups and the people running for maximum efficiency are being just as restrictive as we are in GW2 (if not more).

And talking about things that are needed. Introducing needed roles creates even more elitism and exclusion. But the overall most efficient composition is just as restrictive as it is in GW2. Its impossible to have two different approaches with equal efficiency. Especially if one of your approaches is sacrifising damage for defence. Simple logic.

They do they have suggested top DPS specs however you CAN play other specs and do almost the same amount of dps when you play in these other games so it’s not as required as it is here. When you balance a game properly, it doesn’t really matter which spec you are in boss fights which is my point.

For example, if you have a pet heavy class and the boss fight will kill all pets you can switch to a non pet spec and do considerable damage in the fight which in this example deals DoT damage rather than burst crit.

In another title that has a pet heavy class you can switch to an all debuffer style attack spec which has barely any DPS at all but debuffs the boss and elites and makes them miss or do hardly any damage and many instances require that.

That’s my point, it should be balanced to include all dps specs right now they only have 1 and 1 only for every situation, that’s not balance.

Why do I click “fix zerker” threads…

Sorin.4310:

Why do I click “fix zerker” threads…

Masochism? :\
I assume that’s why I do it.

The answers are always the same:
Zerk is fine.
Make your own LFG groups.

Less nerf-zerk and more make other gear more enticing is where my opinion is now. Unfortunately, because of PvP, they’re afraid to make Healing Power better, even though it’s the counter to Power/Crit (with Toughness) or conditions (via Vitality).
And we could do better to have a nominal balance pass on dungeon mobs. /shrug

tigirius.9014:

That’s my point, it should be balanced to include all dps specs right now they only have 1 and 1 only for every situation, that’s not balance.

This is simply not true…
You can complete every aspect of the game in something else than berserker gear. Berserker is the way to go when you are sure to know the fight enough so that you will avoid the most dangerous damage, when you have good cooperation with others and if you don’t waste your survival options.
For all those parameters you will be rewarded by being faster than everyone else which makes you able to complete more dungeons with the same amount of time.

But in the end once every path are done you have no other advantage. In the open world you won’t make silverwastes faster since they are on timer, nor on world boss train since they are precisely scheduled. You won’t go in WvW since the meta while being less strict is far from zerker gear… so really I don’t see the zerker meta being any problem, especially since it is not mandatory for any activity (few to no gear check encounters in the game)

1. Rework the stat system. Instead letting people go all out with attack, keep the 3 types of damage (Power, Critical and conditions) and make 3 types of defense (e.g: Toughness vs power, vitality vs conditions, Something like “shields” vs criticals ‘shields would make the character immune to criticals while they last, and and regenerate on their own , the higher your shields, the more critical hits you can take before your shield breaks and start getting critical damage, when it breaks, it stops regenerating for 5 seconds or so), it so people have to pick their style of defense (go all out for one of them or a combination of them), pick their style of damage.
2. Rework content so there’s more variety and better AI, so pure critical damage isn’t the fastest option everywhere, but without forcing people to change characters all the time during the content or having specific parties.

tigirius.9014:

~ It is broken.
~ This meta shouldn’t exist as the sole means to play the game.
~ Balance doesn’t exist.

If you don’t care about that then you don’t care about the game and you don’t care about your community so some of you are showing your true colors in your replies here today.

• Gear stats are working as intended. Whether dungeons are working as intended is another issue, unrelated to gear.
• The berserker meta is not the sole means to play the game. It isn’t even the sole means to play dungeons. It is the gear set to wear if you want to join any party, right away, with no effort to find people of like mind. The two things are not the same.
• Outside of the implementation of condition stacks in PvE, balance is — if anything — in favor of the resilient builds, not the glass ones.

I do care about the game and the community. I care about the people who prefer the current meta. I care that the dungeon community has not seen a new dungeon path since TA/AP. I care about all the people who start “anything goes” groups, in LFG or via their guilds or friends lists. I care that their experience would be made worse by your suggestion and by virtually every other suggestion to “fix” the “zerker problem.”

What I don’t care for are suggestions to make the dungeons worse for several demographics so a different demographic can wear Soldier’s or Rabid or w/ever gear and get into a group right away.

tigirius.9014:

Spoj The Second.7680:

tigirius.9014:

It actually doesn’t when balanced properly. You see, other games that use the triple talent system for developing DPS characters don’t require that someone be that 1 single spec to play above all others because there are other things that are needed that help with strategic gameplay that allow for the other specs to play.

Thats completely incorrect. Other games do have single top dps specs. The difference between other games and gw2 is that the casual community is heavily exposed to the meta crowd in gw2. Whereas in other games its not considered as important in pug groups. But the guild groups and the people running for maximum efficiency are being just as restrictive as we are in GW2 (if not more).

And talking about things that are needed. Introducing needed roles creates even more elitism and exclusion. But the overall most efficient composition is just as restrictive as it is in GW2. Its impossible to have two different approaches with equal efficiency. Especially if one of your approaches is sacrifising damage for defence. Simple logic.

They do they have suggested top DPS specs however you CAN play other specs and do almost the same amount of dps when you play in these other games so it’s not as required as it is here. When you balance a game properly, it doesn’t really matter which spec you are in boss fights which is my point.

For example, if you have a pet heavy class and the boss fight will kill all pets you can switch to a non pet spec and do considerable damage in the fight which in this example deals DoT damage rather than burst crit.

In another title that has a pet heavy class you can switch to an all debuffer style attack spec which has barely any DPS at all but debuffs the boss and elites and makes them miss or do hardly any damage and many instances require that.

That’s my point, it should be balanced to include all dps specs right now they only have 1 and 1 only for every situation, that’s not balance.

I can assure you that in a group which is trying to go as fast as possible. For example a record. That they will restrict just as much as we do in GW2. That was my point. You are talking about relaxed raid groups. Raids in other games do require some organisation so they cant be completely relaxed.

There is no such thing as zerker problem and zerker meta.

Berserker stats are the most common stats for DPS class in MMO (and arguably RPG) genre.

Since there is no trinity in this game, there is no real need for tanking or healing stats meant for tanks and healers (I gues they have some use in WvWvW). Also any passive mitigation of incoming damage from boss is pretty much pointless. You can mitigate 100% of avoidable damage just by dodging, if you are not that good at dodging u can always use some other form of active protection such as Endrue Pain. Also laughable boss mechanics in dungeons often allows you to simply stack on top of each other and get resurrected almost instantly.

Fixing the Zerker/Zerg problem would require instituting the holy trinity – tank/dps/healer. If all there is in this game is DPS then people want to maximize their DPS to kill the boss quicker and get loot quicker. Blame that on Anet for not having that kind of foresight, not the player.

To further fix this, Anet has add mechanics to fights that you just can’t go – “ZOMFGRUSHBLOWITUP!!1111” Such as bosses putting shields on themselves that if they’re attacked with melee during a certain phase, the zerg wipes. During this phase, the mechanics come into play, like going to mortars to take down that shield, while casters DPS the boss with magic that penetrates the shield.

When you wipe enough, you’ll go “Hmm, maybe I should stop trying to chop that boss down with my face.”

tigirius.9014:

It actually doesn’t when balanced properly. You see, other games that use the triple talent system for developing DPS characters don’t require that someone be that 1 single spec to play above all others because there are other things that are needed that help with strategic gameplay that allow for the other specs to play. For example, when bosses aren’t the 1 killshot enormous amount of health meta we see players coming together in order to coordinate. That doesn’t happen in this game, everyone simply must be zerker and rush through it as quickly as possible. It’s not coordination it’s finding exploits so use while you’re enormously squishy (unless you play Warrior of course) and you simply must follow the crowd or you can do nothing because you’re kicked from every group.

I have news for you, that’s not balanced.

In this game everyone wants ( not has) to be zerker and rushes through the content because people don’t play 2 and a half year’s content for the gameplay, story or experience anymore.

They want their rewards as fast as possible and thus play in a way that best facilitates that.

The " kicked from every group" is a mentality issue. Find people with similar play styles and mindsets and go with them.

Don’t expect others to play with you or have you along if you’re not someone they care playing with.

I for example usually only play with people who want rewards as fast as possible and are very experienced at the content they’re doing.

tigirius.9014:

Make bosses have a building crit damage resistance buff. Think about it why should CC suffer CC doesn’t kill bosses and Condi damage already has a limitation because it’s built poorly (max stacking), so fix the crit Zerker mentality by making bosses require coordination by giving them a significant buff against crit burst damage skills then parties would be required to have multiple build types and the Zerker build parties would be dead.

I’m with you, (in the Zerker hating Wagon at least) but the content of the game must be built around non-dps builds, and simple solutions like this will take the fun out of it.

I’ve made multiple suggestions for this in the past, going from scaling skills with less popular attributes, to introducing new attributes, to designing dungeons with specific builds in mind.
In the end I’ve understood 3 things.

1. The community here is very toxic. Most players who hate the current “holly Zerker” system have already left the game.
2. There is no easy or fast solution to something so game-changing. The upcoming expansion will be the best opportunity, and I’m prepared to quit my self if it’s not addressed then.
3. Keep beating that Horse until there is nothing left! The fact that so many people keep beating “the crater where the dead horse used to be” means that there’s truly some thing wrong with this game, and then perhaps they’ll take note!

Croc.5129:

Then why can the same not apply to those who decide to put on defensive gear? Why has the game completely ignored the contribution of defensive stats when it comes to combat encounters in PvE? It is not that difficult to come up with alternative methods to allow for similar clearing times and risk/reward dynamics.

You can increase the damage output of your offensive abilities with offensive stats, but putting on defensive gear doesn nothing for your abilities, and the game just expects you to sit there and take hits without providing mechanics to allow you to take advantage of your gear choice to hasten the defeat of your enemy. Punishing the enemy for attacking you is the simplest of mechanics that could be implemented in this way, but Anet has done nothing special in comparison to regular trinity games in that regard.

Why implement stats if you’re not going to do anything of note with them? Stats may as well not exist in that case, and GW2 should implement a system that completely relies upon ability modifying traits, runes and sigils. At least the game would not pretend it has more depth than it actually does. Then it would be an actual choice, rather than having the game pretend it has more depth than it actually does.

Why?

- Defensive gear had its place at the beginning of the game when people were unfamiliar with encounters, bosses, mechanics and their own classes. Since then many things have changed-

The whole point of similar clear times on defensive gear is that you’re not rewarding skilled play.

I’m sure most dungeons can be afk ranged in tanky gear but why should that take just as long as a full zerker glass party that has to literally " do or die" at every encounter.

Punishing the enemy for attacking you is the simplest of mechanics that could be implemented in this way, but Anet has done nothing special in comparison to regular trinity games in that regard.

This was a thing in GW1 – and a lot and I mean a LOT of farms were born of this. My guess is they didn’t want a repeat of that.

Why implement stats if you’re not going to do anything of note with them?

There are places in the game where defensive sets shine – both in PVE but especially in PVP and WvW.

I see a lot of complaining that defensive stats aren’t a huge deal in PVE but nobody seems to mind they’re very strong in both WvW and sPVP.

Kite.2510:

tigirius.9014:

Make bosses have a building crit damage resistance buff. Think about it why should CC suffer CC doesn’t kill bosses and Condi damage already has a limitation because it’s built poorly (max stacking), so fix the crit Zerker mentality by making bosses require coordination by giving them a significant buff against crit burst damage skills then parties would be required to have multiple build types and the Zerker build parties would be dead.

I’m with you, (in the Zerker hating Wagon at least) but the content of the game must be built around non-dps builds, and simple solutions like this will take the fun out of it.

I’ve made multiple suggestions for this in the past, going from scaling skills with less popular attributes, to introducing new attributes, to designing dungeons with specific builds in mind.
In the end I’ve understood 3 things.

1. The community here is very toxic. Most players who hate the current “holly Zerker” system have already left the game.
2. There is no easy or fast solution to something so game-changing. The upcoming expansion will be the best opportunity, and I’m prepared to quit my self if it’s not addressed then.
3. Keep beating that Horse until there is nothing left! The fact that so many people keep beating “the crater where the dead horse used to be” means that there’s truly some thing wrong with this game, and then perhaps they’ll take note!

1. means that some people just don’t care about the game and only wish it was changed for their benefit.

The fact that they’re persistent doesn’t mean there’s a problem. Hell – I could make a thread about wanting the game to give me a precursor every day – for the next 5 years – that doesn’t mean that there’s a problem with the game. Just that I have a lot of time and am very determined.

Kite.2510:

1. Keep beating that Horse until there is nothing left! The fact that so many people keep beating “the crater where the dead horse used to be” means that there’s truly some thing wrong with this game, and then perhaps they’ll take note!

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

Brahmincorle.1264:

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

Funny thing, you can still make a ‘tank’ or ‘healer’. I’ve done it, and done it successfully. It’s not speed-run optimized, obviously, but I give two adorable kittens about that. :P

The point is that tanks and healers aren’t necessary for success. No unbalanced rewards for tanks, no WTF-hour queues for DPS. It’s one of the many reasons I still (try to) love GW2.

But that’s a side argument from ‘zerker’ stuff. Then again, I don’t feel there’s a zerker problem. ANet could tweak 2-year-old content to make it more balanced for PPF vs Condition, or improve the AI and damage mechanics, but they likely won’t. It’s primarily a monster design problem.
If there is a problem, it’s an attitude problem.

Rauderi.8706:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

Funny thing, you can still make a ‘tank’

No you can’t (at least not traditional MMO kind of tank). A DPS in tanking gear is as close as you can get. Unless you somehow come with a guaranteed way of holding aggro on you, you are not a “tank”. It is same as playing a DPS in tanking gear in other games… you are not tanking anything but you are garbage dps.

This is why I think “zerker problem” is just in people’s heads. They see “tanking gear” and wants to play a tank… in a game without aggro management. Tanking/healing gear is nothing more than “starting” gear that is meant to be replaced by proper DPS stats when you learn how to not die.

But I agree with the rest of your post They should tweak dungeon monsters/bosses to be more condi-dps friendly.

Edit: added some additional thoughts

Brahmincorle.1264:

Rauderi.8706:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

Funny thing, you can still make a ‘tank’

No you can’t (at least not traditional MMO kind of tank). A DPS in tanking gear is as close as you can get. Unless you somehow come with a guaranteed way of holding aggro on you, you are not a “tank”. It is same as playing a DPS in tanking gear in other games… you are not tanking anything but you are garbage dps.

This is why I think “zerker problem” is just in people’s heads. They see “tanking gear” and wants to play a tank… in a game without aggro management. Tanking/healing gear is nothing more than “starting” gear that is meant to be replaced by proper DPS stats when you learn how to not die.

Edit: added some additional thoughts

Thank you, I hate when people consider a tank someone who just has a ton of defense. “tanky” = high defense “tank” = agro management and positioning control. It’s different.

Brahmincorle.1264:

Rauderi.8706:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

Funny thing, you can still make a ‘tank’

No you can’t (at least not traditional MMO kind of tank). A DPS in tanking gear is as close as you can get. Unless you somehow come with a guaranteed way of holding aggro on you, you are not a “tank”.

That’s just quibbling terms. Yes, there’s a lack of a threat mechanic, but aggro is still an algorithm, and if you know it, you can manipulate it to a degree.
Apparently, some people haven’t tried it. I’ve managed to hold boss/champ aggro on numerous occasions, so it can work.

Thinking about it again, I’d be perfectly fine with aggro re-coded somewhat so that anything that removes a stack of Defiance also has higher threat. (Partially because lolbearbows? I dunno.) That could at least give hard-CC some other meaning in relevant boss encounters.

Rauderi.8706:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Rauderi.8706:

Brahmincorle.1264:

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

Funny thing, you can still make a ‘tank’

No you can’t (at least not traditional MMO kind of tank). A DPS in tanking gear is as close as you can get. Unless you somehow come with a guaranteed way of holding aggro on you, you are not a “tank”.

That’s just quibbling terms. Yes, there’s a lack of a threat mechanic, but aggro is still an algorithm, and if you know it, you can manipulate it to a degree.
Apparently, some people haven’t tried it. I’ve managed to hold boss/champ aggro on numerous occasions, so it can work.

Thinking about it again, I’d be perfectly fine with aggro re-coded somewhat so that anything that removes a stack of Defiance also has higher threat. (Partially because lolbearbows? I dunno.) That could at least give hard-CC some other meaning in relevant boss encounters.

GW2 isn’t consistent enough in it’s agro mechanics. Generally toughness plays a role but it won’t always hold agro for you. Range is also often a trigger for attacks, but it won’t always hold agro and may just be for certain attacks while others target nearest. The game seems pretty well designed to prevent tanking.

And please no with the defiance thing… I can just see people now.
“dude, why did you throw that CC I had a Deep Freeze on the way”
“I needed agro, I’m playing the tank”
“ugh….”

Brahmincorle.1264:

Kite.2510:

1. Keep beating that Horse until there is nothing left! The fact that so many people keep beating “the crater where the dead horse used to be” means that there’s truly some thing wrong with this game, and then perhaps they’ll take note!

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

never stepped out of PvE I take it.

Jerus.4350:

And please no with the defiance thing… I can just see people now.
“dude, why did you throw that CC I had a Deep Freeze on the way”
“I needed agro, I’m playing the tank”
“ugh….”

So it’s not the best idea. I can accept that. =P

I never claimed aggro control was consistent. I’m sure there’s plenty of Elementalist stories about “that kitten boss wouldn’t leave me alone even with 4 other party members beating on it.”

The point is, I can, if I do it right. And if that makes it easier (not necessarily faster) for my team/guild, I’m okay with that option. The perceived lack of options is what some of the arguing is about. (The other is the group exclusion, but that’s a use-LFG matter.)

My problem with zerker stats are that zerk character can still stay in the thick of combat throughout an entire fight. If you’re specs for glass cannon, that’s fine, you can do more damage, but you should need to be much more mindful of your health and need to get out of to recuperate and heal up. I would like to see dungeon fights go something like this:

1. Fight starts, everyone stacks, blows their neat DPS skills, zerker is doing much more damage than the other builds, then everyone realizes that the boss is not dead yet
2. Zerker builds are at mid to low health, they disengage, heal up, maybe plink from range until they heal or get mitigation cooldowns up again. Balanced and defensive statted players are doing fine, they keep attacking
3. Boss winds up for a big series of attacks/frenzies for a time/etc. Balanced builds realize their outclassed and disengages, zerker stays the hell away, but defensive players just keep on trucking.

As a nice side effect, this would heavily reduce the outsized importance on stacking. How to implement this is a different question, a basic method would just be un avoidable damage, but there are better ways.

Brahmincorle.1264:

Kite.2510:

1. Keep beating that Horse until there is nothing left! The fact that so many people keep beating “the crater where the dead horse used to be” means that there’s truly some thing wrong with this game, and then perhaps they’ll take note!

Nah, some ppl just want to play tanks and healers in a game without tanks and healers.

You can’t play Tank and Healers even if they make the other attributes more relevant.
Since there are no mechanics for dedicated healers, that means that:

1. There can’t be any healers even with a maxed healing stat.
2. There can’t be any true tanks, since without dedicated healers, the Tanker will eventually leave his post to survive.
3. The enemy AI doesn’t support that anyway.

There CAN be a game with plenty of attributes without being a “Holy Trinity” game. It’s just that they haven’t given much thought on the idea (if any at all) and in the current game all attributes are irrelevant, with the exception of the pure DPSy ones.
See the links to my suggestions in my upper post. The only time I ever mentioned the holly trinity one time as an easter egg.