Guild Wars 2

What is the difference between wearing Soldier’s gearing and using a well timed ‘parry’ mechanic to stay alive and do significant damage vs. wearing Berserker’s gear and using well timed dodges to stay alive and do significant damage? The answer is Berserker’s+Active Defenses adheres to the games current design and isn’t a completely contrived idea to force homogenization. If the people that need to wear Soldier’s gear had the skill to time this parry mechanic then they would have already switched to Berserker’s+Active Defenses. This really just seems like a bunch of non-conformist hipster babble to me. Using Soldier’s gear, not because you need it, but only for the sake of Bering a speshul snowflake and then wishing for it to be changed to produce the same results of the same gearset you despise sounds completely disengenuine to me.

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

There doesn’t need to be “stats that effect our defensive tool”. Our Active Defenses are already at 100% effectiveness. That’s the point of active combat. Passive defense stats provide a buffer against mistiming/misusing those active defenses. The gear set stats only act as ‘role definition’ if you are wearing your ‘typical MMO’ blinders. Try getting rid of all of your preconceptions about how MMOs work or should be designed and accept GW2 on it’s own terms and all of these complaints will have proved themselves to be a figment of your imagination.

Offensive stats increase the effectiveness of offensive abilities.

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities and they havent changed. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman with just healing signet.

Tman.6349:

What is the difference between wearing Soldier’s gearing and using a well timed ‘parry’ mechanic to stay alive and do significant damage vs. wearing Berserker’s gear and using well timed dodges to stay alive and do significant damage? The answer is Berserker’s+Active Defenses adheres to the games current design and isn’t a completely contrived idea to force homogenization. If the people that need to wear Soldier’s gear had the skill to time this parry mechanic then they would have already switched to Berserker’s+Active Defenses. This really just seems like a bunch of non-conformist hipster babble to me. Using Soldier’s gear, not because you need it, but only for the sake of Bering a speshul snowflake and then wishing for it to be changed to produce the same results of the same gearset you despise sounds completely disengenuine to me.

I don’t despise berserker gear. I keep saying I think berserker gear is fine.

What it would promote is different modes of thought for the individual when going into an encounter, while having to tackle a different array of variables to gain victory.

The result is not the important part so much as the process. I want a difference in the process of achieving victory.

Or GW2 can become an actual character action game and make the entire discussion moot.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman just healing signet.

So why not implement defense strictly through modifying the effectiveness of abilities rather than health and armor?

It seems like it would be more consistant and interesting a choice to focus on modifying your active abilities in all aspects of the game.

Its not as if auto-attack is the only thing affected by offensive stats. It still affects damaging utilities. Why not afford the same opportunity for active use in defensive gear? Make them all require more proper timing of abilities for maximum gain.

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

There doesn’t need to be “stats that effect our defensive tool”. Our Active Defenses are already at 100% effectiveness. That’s the point of active combat. Passive defense stats provide a buffer against mistiming/misusing those active defenses. The gear set stats only act as ‘role definition’ if you are wearing your ‘typical MMO’ blinders. Try getting rid of all of your preconceptions about how MMOs work or should be designed and accept GW2 on it’s own terms and all of these complaints will have proved themselves to be a figment of your imagination.

Offensive stats increase the effectiveness of offensive abilities.

And? What’s your point?

Offensive stats passively increase your ability to do damage and defensive stats passively increase your ability to facetank damage? That seems pretty straightforward to me…

I dont see how that would be an improvement. Or how that would even be possible without making a new game.

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

If you don’t see the difference between WoW’s player base and GW2’s player base and target audience…then i doubt this discussion will go anywhere.

Please explain your comments in regards to target audience with further detail please. Aside from a completely different framework (forced trinity vs none), WoW caters to all levels of audiences from casual to dedicated within its framework.

tigirius.9014:

Tree.3916:

Seriously? How do you know he was fired for that? How do you know he was fired at all?
Even if what you said is true, how does that invalidate what he said?

Edit: My second question got answered http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Robert_Hrouda

Oh now that is just hilarious. LOL

Anything else they’d like to share that was designed by someone no longer with the company?

Or perhaps they’d like to talk about how the same thing was done in another NCsoft game with another team that’s not doing so well over there either with similar design flaws. (Wildstar) because that would be just as inherently bad. Wildstar however was setup to be for the nostalgic (you know those people like that person who just made the argument of get off if you don’t like the game, yeah those people) and they realized also just what not to do after launch whereas GW2 was originally trying to attract all kinds of players and then went through a change mid way after launch to become something completely different then what they were talking about at launch or in beta.

So explain to us again how you feel it’s okay for a game company to attract one audience and then completely break what that audience is seeking half way through because that’s what happened here with Zerker, Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched you could actually do what the devs claimed you could do with ease and ability in fact you could actually use CC on bosses and it was amazing the difference in fights. Now though it’s been dumbed down to the point that all you need to do is rush everything with no strat. Tell us again how that’s an improvement.

An no profit isn’t the only reason games are made. Blizz recently made several changes to their progression model because they too understand the need for players to play the way they want to play. In fact a huge balance patch is about to come out that’s supposed to enhance and rebalance all classes because of the problems in these classes that GhostCrawler caused while working there in previous expansions that they didn’t have time to fix in this one.

Some of us are just waiting patiently for Arenanet to get rid of their own GhostCrawler problems here in this game that have caused years of PVE imbalance, how is that wrong?

GW2 has attracted the audience that want :

1)No trinity
2)No hard roles

And have given exactly what that audience wants.

Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched because :

1)People didn’t know the game’s mechanics
2)People didn’t know their own class
3)People didn’t know the encounters by heart.

All that has changes in 2+ years. You can’t undo those changes.

CC on the boss at the start of the game? I don’t remember that being a thing. CC is now more used than it was at the start. Proper parties use it anyway.

Also if you’re waiting for Anet to change the game just because of a few people on the forums – good luck then.

Tman.6349:

And? What’s your point?

Offensive stats passively increase your ability to do damage and defensive stats passively increase your ability to facetank damage? That seems pretty straightforward to me…

Offensive abilities are not passive. The closest you could get to that is just having auto-attack be affected by your offensive stats.

It affords an intrinsic value to offensive stats that is not shared in others when those passive stats are not tied to mechanics that can be actively applied to defeat the enemy in a more effective manner.

Serophous.9085:

rapthorne.7345:

X T D.6458:

I dont understand why zerker is the problem its just one of many available stats. If you or someone want to run a party full of clerics or condi builds nothing stopping you. Whats wrong with people running whatever they want, how would you feel if people were telling you what to run, and that what your running is wrong, chances are you have heard that so why go ahead and do the same exact thing to others? Let people run whatever the heck they want, dont like it, dont party up with them, dont run with them simple as that. People will always find the fastest way to do something. Get over it.

I will say that condition builds do need a long overdue buff for pve.

Berserker isn’t the problem, the fact that berserker is the only efficient way to PvE is. Something needs to be done to make things other than pure dps decent options

Actually, the problem is the dodge mechanic. Remove the 100% dmg free, and suddenly people will all have to wear some sort of toughness or vitality to survive some attacks.

Or…the meta would still stay full Berserker’s and teams would just stack more active defenses (ie. 2-3 Guardians) and even MORE professions/builds/gearsets would get shut out of the meta and excluded from dungeons. Most likely, this new meta would become more adamantly enforced than what we have now.

#contrivedfailideawithnothoughtofreprecussions

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

If you don’t see the difference between WoW’s player base and GW2’s player base and target audience…then i doubt this discussion will go anywhere.

Please explain your comments in regards to target audience with further detail please. Aside from a completely different framework (forced trinity vs none), WoW caters to all levels of audiences from casual to dedicated within its framework.

WoW players are by definition more hardcore than GW players.

WoW players accept vertical progression. They accept that with every new expansion their gear will be worthless and the grind will start over for best in slot.

WoW’s players are thus much more accepting of gated content based on gear and are alright with that concept.
WoW’s players are alright with having parts of their game they will never touch because of gear.

GW2 players came to GW2 to get away from that and are much more casual. They want to be able to get everything and do everything and don’t really want to be held back.

Harper.4173:

GW2 has attracted the audience that want :

1)No trinity
2)No hard roles

And have given exactly what that audience wants.

Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched because :

1)People didn’t know the game’s mechanics
2)People didn’t know their own class
3)People didn’t know the encounters by heart.

All that has changes in 2+ years. You can’t undo those changes.

CC on the boss at the start of the game? I don’t remember that being a thing. CC is now more used than it was at the start. Proper parties use it anyway.

Also if you’re waiting for Anet to change the game just because of a few people on the forums – good luck then.

Nope. I have no such delusions about the future of the game. Its pretty much for my own understanding on how game mechanics stand and the people’s thoughts on the matter that I’m sticking around since the PAX announcement got my attention.

We all know we’re not going to change each other’s minds.

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

The gear you wear actively contributes to the whole of your character’s capabilities. Unless you are saying that the effects of the stats given are negligible, which we know is not true.

No. I’m saying that gearstats are nothing more than a passive, personal offense/defense slider scale and have never been anything more. The “thought” that you suggest should be implemented when picking ‘playstyle’ (lol, you really mean gearstats here again; passive facetanking is hardly considered a ‘playstyle’) are already there: “Do I want to do Condition Damage or Direct Damage?” and “Does my build have enough Active Defenses taken into account and how well do I keep myself alive using those Active Defenses?”. Those are the only two questions you need to ask yourself concerning gear. EVERYTHING else reguarding your build’s team support, control ability, etc are all reliant on your selection of weapons, utilities, and traits. That is how the game is designed. You’re just looking in the wrong place to establish your ‘role’ that you desire so much. It has nothing to do with gearstats. Those are personal and have nothing to do with what you perform as a party member. Well, unless you’re trying to force a ‘trinity roles’ system into the game anyway.

Croc.5129:

Harper.4173:

GW2 has attracted the audience that want :

1)No trinity
2)No hard roles

And have given exactly what that audience wants.

Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched because :

1)People didn’t know the game’s mechanics
2)People didn’t know their own class
3)People didn’t know the encounters by heart.

All that has changes in 2+ years. You can’t undo those changes.

CC on the boss at the start of the game? I don’t remember that being a thing. CC is now more used than it was at the start. Proper parties use it anyway.

Also if you’re waiting for Anet to change the game just because of a few people on the forums – good luck then.

Nope. I have no such delusions about the future of the game. Its pretty much for my own understanding on how game mechanics stand and the people’s thoughts on the matter that I’m sticking around since the PAX announcement got my attention.

We all know we’re not going to change each other’s minds.

Not trying to change your mind.
I fear the PAX announcement will let you down

They have tanks, dps and healers in other games. Tanks are using defensive stats, DPS is using offensive stats, and healers are using healing increasing stats.

If you take a tank and slap healing gear on him, he would be garbage tank and equally bad healer. Nobody is DPSing in tanking gear either.

In this game we have only DPS therefore offensive stats being meta is simply matter of common sense. Deal with it.

Croc.5129:

It affords an intrinsic value to offensive stats that is not shared in others when those passive stats are not tied to mechanics that can be actively applied to defeat the enemy in a more effective manner.

So you basically wants to turn defensive stats into offensive output… dude why not just equip gear with offensive stats instead? Why would they (devs) waste their time by redesigning entire game instead of making new content?

Croc you are not just beating a dead horse… you are beating a already petrified skeleton of a long dead prehistoric creature on display in local museum.

Tman.6349:

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

The gear you wear actively contributes to the whole of your character’s capabilities. Unless you are saying that the effects of the stats given are negligible, which we know is not true.

No. I’m saying that gearstats are nothing more than a passive, personal offense/defense slider scale and have never been anything more. The “thought” that you suggest should be implemented when picking ‘playstyle’ (lol, you really mean gearstats here again; passive facetanking is hardly considered a ‘playstyle’) are already there: “Do I want to do Condition Damage or Direct Damage?” and “Does my build have enough Active Defenses taken into account and how well do I keep myself alive using those Active Defenses?”. Those are the only two questions you need to ask yourself concerning gear. EVERYTHING else reguarding your build’s team support, control ability, etc are all reliant on your selection of weapons, utilities, and traits. That is how the game is designed. You’re just looking in the wrong place to establish your ‘role’ that you desire so much. It has nothing to do with gearstats. Those are personal and have nothing to do with what you perform as a party member. Well, unless you’re trying to force a ‘trinity roles’ system into the game anyway.

No. We have already discussed that we are looking for ways to have the stats be useful without implementing roles. I do not want hard roles. I have said this repeatedly.

And my damage does suffer when I opt not to wear offensive gear, making me less useful to the team, and my defensive gear does nothing of value to contribute to my ability to offer control and support, so where is its place in the grand scheme of things?

Why should defence effect control and support? Where is control and support defined as purely defensive?

Obviously you would lose damage if you dont take offensive gear. Your base damage stats are lower. You arent making any sense.

And defensive gear does help contribute to your ability to offer control and support. The way it does that is by allowing you to stay alive with greater ease or in situations where you would normally die (ressing someone). If you are alive longer you can support your group more. Obviously if you are skilled you can do it in glass gear. I think thats pretty fair dont you?

Harper.4173:

Croc.5129:

Harper.4173:

GW2 has attracted the audience that want :

1)No trinity
2)No hard roles

And have given exactly what that audience wants.

Zerker wasn’t the meta when the game launched because :

1)People didn’t know the game’s mechanics
2)People didn’t know their own class
3)People didn’t know the encounters by heart.

All that has changes in 2+ years. You can’t undo those changes.

CC on the boss at the start of the game? I don’t remember that being a thing. CC is now more used than it was at the start. Proper parties use it anyway.

Also if you’re waiting for Anet to change the game just because of a few people on the forums – good luck then.

Nope. I have no such delusions about the future of the game. Its pretty much for my own understanding on how game mechanics stand and the people’s thoughts on the matter that I’m sticking around since the PAX announcement got my attention.

We all know we’re not going to change each other’s minds.

Not trying to change your mind.
I fear the PAX announcement will let you down

My expectations are more geared towards a larger than normal living story continuation. I would be surprised if the announcement can’t at least beat that.

Croc.5129:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman just healing signet.

So why not implement defense strictly through modifying the effectiveness of abilities rather than health and armor?

It seems like it would be more consistant and interesting a choice to focus on modifying your active abilities in all aspects of the game.

Its not as if auto-attack is the only thing affected by offensive stats. It still affects damaging utilities. Why not afford the same opportunity for active use in defensive gear? Make them all require more proper timing of abilities for maximum gain.

Active Defenses already require proper timing for maximum gain. If you activate your dodge while no enemies are attacking, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resources. If you cast a reflect while their are only melee enemies attacking you, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resource. This is similar to using a big offensive attack while you’re blinded or using your blast finisher while a Light Field is still active instead of waiting for the Fire Field to take priority. Just b/c Active Defenses are 100% effective on their own doesn’t mean you just spam them willy nilly and all is well. O.o Once again, you’re trying to equate gear prefixes as some kind of ‘role’ or ‘play style’. They are not those things at all. Plz get this concept through your head. Passive, personal offense/defense slider scale. Nothing more…

Spoj The Second.7680:

Why should defence effect control and support? Where is control and support defined as purely defensive?

Obviously you would lose damage if you dont take offensive gear. Your base damage stats are lower. You arent making any sense.

I mean there is no gear whatsoever that affects those abilities. Of course they are not only defensive. Might is certainly not defensive. They would need their own stats in order to be implemented, and I don’t want to implement stats to affect boons. Not when there are classes that have boon reliance as a whole part of their identity.

I am wondering where the value in defensive gear is when there are no tanking roles (a good thing), no tools to utilise your sturdy nature, and you have all the base mitigation you need in PvE to do the content.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities and they havent changed. *Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. * And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman with just healing signet.

Except they don’t because the actual usefullness of the defensive stats is really minor when compared to the usefullness of the offensive stats. I don’t know about that specific player and mossman, but i have seen a lot of players that believed in “tankiness” of nomad gear but ended up as much dead as when running more offensive setup.
Basically, barring some special circumstances, if you’re not good enough to run mostly offensive gear, you’ll end up killed in nomad as well. The balance is heavily skewed towards offense.

In truth, with the combat system as it is (where survival is mostly depended on active defenses and fast and efficient killing of opponents), the game would have been better with no gear-based stats whatsoever. The choice they offer in PvE is mostly illusory.

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

You keep using a lot of different words as if they are synonymous for the one you’re implying. You can call it ‘play style’ or ‘role’ or ‘build’ or anything else but that won’t change the fact that you’re referring to gear stat prefixes as something they are not and never have been.

The gear you wear actively contributes to the whole of your character’s capabilities. Unless you are saying that the effects of the stats given are negligible, which we know is not true.

No. I’m saying that gearstats are nothing more than a passive, personal offense/defense slider scale and have never been anything more. The “thought” that you suggest should be implemented when picking ‘playstyle’ (lol, you really mean gearstats here again; passive facetanking is hardly considered a ‘playstyle’) are already there: “Do I want to do Condition Damage or Direct Damage?” and “Does my build have enough Active Defenses taken into account and how well do I keep myself alive using those Active Defenses?”. Those are the only two questions you need to ask yourself concerning gear. EVERYTHING else reguarding your build’s team support, control ability, etc are all reliant on your selection of weapons, utilities, and traits. That is how the game is designed. You’re just looking in the wrong place to establish your ‘role’ that you desire so much. It has nothing to do with gearstats. Those are personal and have nothing to do with what you perform as a party member. Well, unless you’re trying to force a ‘trinity roles’ system into the game anyway.

No. We have already discussed that we are looking for ways to have the stats be useful without implementing roles. I do not want hard roles. I have said this repeatedly.

And my damage does suffer when I opt not to wear offensive gear, making me less useful to the team, and my defensive gear does nothing of value to contribute to my ability to offer control and support, so where is its place in the grand scheme of things?

It’s place in the grand scheme of things is to passively keep those players alive that otherwise couldn’t survive encounters due to mistiming/misuse of Active Defenses, latency, or whatever reason they might have. If it helps keep you stay alive and fighting to see another day, well then that’s how it’s useful to your team. They have a 5th member that they don’t have to keep rezzing and wasting their own stats/time. If you are already capable of using Active Defenses to stay alive and still chose to stack defensive stats, well then you’re just a stubborn kitten and I don’t think ‘team dynamics’ is your primary concern anyway…

Tman.6349:

Active Defenses already require proper timing for maximum gain. If you activate your dodge while no enemies are attacking, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resources. If you cast a reflect while their are only melee enemies attacking you, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resource. This is similar to using a big offensive attack while you’re blinded or using your blast finisher while a Light Field is still active instead of waiting for the Fire Field to take priority. Just b/c Active Defenses are 100% effective on their own doesn’t mean you just spam them willy nilly and all is well. O.o Once again, you’re trying to equate gear prefixes as some kind of ‘role’ or ‘play style’. They are not those things at all. Plz get this concept through your head. Passive, personal offense/defense slider scale. Nothing more…

And the purpose of this scaling offense/defense? Why not another system? Why tie it to the amount of difficulty you will experience in the content instead of alternative options to effectively challenge the content?

Tman.6349:

It’s place in the grand scheme of things is to passively keep those players alive that otherwise couldn’t survive encounters due to mistiming/misuse of Active Defenses, latency, or whatever reason they might have. If it helps keep you alive and fighting to see another day, well then that’s how it’s useful to your team. They have a 5th member that they don’t have to keep rezzing and wasting their own stats/time. If you are already capable of using Active Defenses to stay alive and still chose to stack defensive stats, well then you’re just a stubborn kitten and I don’t think ‘team dynamics’ is your primary concern anyway…

Is this not something that can be managed through gameplay instead of gearing choices? More conservative fighters vs. those that can leap into the fray and survive with the use of their abilities?

I do have to thank you all for humouring me on this. I have gained a greater understanding of community opinion on this particular matter over the course of the discussion.

Astralporing.1957:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities and they havent changed. *Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. * And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman with just healing signet.

Except they don’t because the actual usefullness of the defensive stats is really minor when compared to the usefullness of the offensive stats. I don’t know about that specific player and mossman, but i have seen a lot of players that believed in “tankiness” of nomad gear but ended up as much dead as when running more offensive setup.
Basically, barring some special circumstances, if you’re not good enough to run mostly offensive gear, you’ll end up killed in nomad as well. The balance is heavily skewed towards offense.

In truth, with the combat system as it is (where survival is mostly depended on active defenses and fast and efficient killing of opponents), the game would have been better with no gear-based stats whatsoever. The choice they offer in PvE is mostly illusory.

http://youtu.be/x1mxlA13ICk

I really dont agree with the statement balance is heavily skewed towards offence. People see it that way because going offensive is what yields the fastest and most efficient times. But if you remove time as a factor you really start to notice just how broken passive defence can be in the hands of proper theory crafters and semi decent players.

I agree the game would have been better if gear was statless. And builds were defined by only runes, sigils and traits. But its too late now. Reworking it at this stage is not an option.

And yeah defensive stats are pretty minor in high end play. But they are essential for lower skilled players and do a good job of giving people roleplaying options. I dont really see why this is a “berserker problem” though.

Raising the skill floor is a good way to shift more players into using defensive gear. But is that really a healthy decision for the game? Creating future instances with no waypoints or the inability to revive would also encourage defensive groups. And hold the point events could also do it. Although id rather not see too many of those as they are often boring timegates and you can hold the points by clearing each wave of enemies instead.

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

If you don’t see the difference between WoW’s player base and GW2’s player base and target audience…then i doubt this discussion will go anywhere.

Please explain your comments in regards to target audience with further detail please. Aside from a completely different framework (forced trinity vs none), WoW caters to all levels of audiences from casual to dedicated within its framework.

WoW players are by definition more hardcore than GW players.

WoW players accept vertical progression. They accept that with every new expansion their gear will be worthless and the grind will start over for best in slot.

WoW’s players are thus much more accepting of gated content based on gear and are alright with that concept.
WoW’s players are alright with having parts of their game they will never touch because of gear.

GW2 players came to GW2 to get away from that and are much more casual. They want to be able to get everything and do everything and don’t really want to be held back.

That is absurd. Last I recall the advertisement was that there would be no gear treadmill in the sense that each tier of gear would become obsolete when new content comes out, that is why we haven’t pushed post lvl80 or had a power creep past ascended or the fact that going into sPvP boosts you straight to lvl80 with selections of stats available. That’s it. If GW2 was advertised as a casual hello kitty adventure island game, why push esports, why have such a dynamic combat system that factors in so many variables into combat play.

If what you say is true about WoW players being naturally hardcore, then why would blizzard introduce the push the LFR system that helps the casual crowd see the content.

Its simple.

WoW PvE caters to both casual and dedicated players
GW2 PvE caters to casual players

We don’t have content for both audiences, we only have content for one.

Croc.5129:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman just healing signet.

So why not implement defense strictly through modifying the effectiveness of abilities rather than health and armor?

It seems like it would be more consistant and interesting a choice to focus on modifying your active abilities in all aspects of the game.

Its not as if auto-attack is the only thing affected by offensive stats. It still affects damaging utilities. Why not afford the same opportunity for active use in defensive gear? Make them all require more proper timing of abilities for maximum gain.

If you’re talking about removing stats from armor and weapons other than weapon damage and defense, I could see that. Hybrid made a similar point, have stats be the equivalent of Celestial for everyone. However, that ship sailed a long time ago. It’s not going to put into port for that big a revision. Imagine the massive outcry “taking peoples’ gear away” would provoke. That’s why I say I like the idea, but don’t ask for it.

If that’s not what you’re asking for, then you’re not explaining it in a way that’s easy to get. If it is, you’re going to have the face the same realization I did — it ain’t happening.

Otherwise, everyone has access to the same buffs, debuffs and other effects. Except for Boon duration and traits, they’re the same for everyone. 25 stacks of Might adds 875 power (soon to be 750) to everyone, whether glass or bunker. Fury gives everyone +20% crit chance. Aegis provides a block, etc.

Revising the game so that all the effects I listed above are affected by stats would require massive changes. It would be a completely different game. If Aegis is more effective if you’ve got defensive stats, and regen more effective than it is now if you’ve got HP, then might and fury would have to be more effective if you’ve got offensive stats. Which means that glass characters would have less defense and bulky characters would get less benefit from might/fury than they do now.

It is not a foreign concept for MMOs to completely revise the stat systems, I believe one certain MMO has done it come every expansion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Croc.5129:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Actually offensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base damage.

And defensive stats increase the effectiveness of your base defence.

It just so happens that damage cannot be passive. But defence can. Your offensive stats arent increasing the number of ticks on a lava font or adding additional effects. Or reducing your ability cooldowns. Your base stats have changed. But the things which use those particular stats are offensive abilities. Defensive abilities are already at maximum effectiveness so you could argue that defensive gear stats have a far superior advantage. And they do considering how a nomads warrior can face tank mossman just healing signet.

So why not implement defense strictly through modifying the effectiveness of abilities rather than health and armor?

It seems like it would be more consistant and interesting a choice to focus on modifying your active abilities in all aspects of the game.

Its not as if auto-attack is the only thing affected by offensive stats. It still affects damaging utilities. Why not afford the same opportunity for active use in defensive gear? Make them all require more proper timing of abilities for maximum gain.

If you’re talking about removing stats from armor and weapons other than weapon damage and defense, I could see that. Hybrid made a similar point, have stats be the equivalent of Celestial for everyone. However, that ship sailed a long time ago. It’s not going to put into port for that big a revision. Imagine the massive outcry “taking peoples’ gear away” would provoke. That’s why I say I like the idea, but don’t ask for it.

Excactly that. Differentiation purely through ability modification, an expansion of the trait system, things of that nature.

I don’t expect anything in the game to really change from its base. This is all just for my own curiosity.

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

Active Defenses already require proper timing for maximum gain. If you activate your dodge while no enemies are attacking, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resources. If you cast a reflect while their are only melee enemies attacking you, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resource. This is similar to using a big offensive attack while you’re blinded or using your blast finisher while a Light Field is still active instead of waiting for the Fire Field to take priority. Just b/c Active Defenses are 100% effective on their own doesn’t mean you just spam them willy nilly and all is well. O.o Once again, you’re trying to equate gear prefixes as some kind of ‘role’ or ‘play style’. They are not those things at all. Plz get this concept through your head. Passive, personal offense/defense slider scale. Nothing more…

And the purpose of this scaling offense/defense? Why not another system? Why tie it to the amount of difficulty you will experience in the content instead of alternative options to effectively challenge the content?

Well why tie any mechanics to gear at all? That’s what you propose and hasn’t been done before. Suggesting that ACTIVE Defenses should be tied to passive stats is silly. There isn’t isn’t a similar mechanic for passive offensive stats so why should there be for defensive stats? Why would a build that already stacks tons of passive defense stats need access to stronger Active Defenses? Active Defenses are only useful in Active Combat if they are 100% effective. If they were scaled with passive defensive stats, that would defeat their whole purpose.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Right, which is why blizzard is able to introduce content like mythic mode raiding and challenge dungeons and still keep afloat.

If you don’t see the difference between WoW’s player base and GW2’s player base and target audience…then i doubt this discussion will go anywhere.

Please explain your comments in regards to target audience with further detail please. Aside from a completely different framework (forced trinity vs none), WoW caters to all levels of audiences from casual to dedicated within its framework.

WoW players are by definition more hardcore than GW players.

WoW players accept vertical progression. They accept that with every new expansion their gear will be worthless and the grind will start over for best in slot.

WoW’s players are thus much more accepting of gated content based on gear and are alright with that concept.
WoW’s players are alright with having parts of their game they will never touch because of gear.

GW2 players came to GW2 to get away from that and are much more casual. They want to be able to get everything and do everything and don’t really want to be held back.

That is absurd. Last I recall the advertisement was that there would be no gear treadmill in the sense that each tier of gear would become obsolete when new content comes out, that is why we haven’t pushed post lvl80 or had a power creep past ascended or the fact that going into sPvP boosts you straight to lvl80 with selections of stats available. That’s it. If GW2 was advertised as a casual hello kitty adventure island game, why push esports, why have such a dynamic combat system that factors in so many variables into combat play.

If what you say is true about WoW players being naturally hardcore, then why would blizzard introduce the push the LFR system that helps the casual crowd see the content.

Its simple.

WoW PvE caters to both casual and dedicated players
GW2 PvE caters to casual players

We don’t have content for both audiences, we only have content for one.

Why push esports? Because in case you haven’t noticed their vision of the game somehow revolves around it regardless of the fact that the game is not and probably never will be an esport.

But look at COD – it’s the hello kitty simplest of them all of the FPS world and still a huge huge esport.

The fact that esports can be a thing in a game and that players can play it at a very high and competitive level doesn’t mean the entire game is esport tier.

Look at GW2 – while PVP might eventually refine into an esport the PVE world is clearly a theme park MMO where everyone is a winner and you simply cannot fail or do bad ( with very very few exceptions).

What I was trying to explain to you is that WoW’s casuals are far more hardcore than GW2’s casuals.

They are players that play a game where they realize they’ll never be #1 and they’re ok with that.

GW2’s casual players complain endlessly that they can’t obtain x reward as fast or as easy as a person who’s completely hardcore and basically lives in the game.

Though both games have casual player populations – these populations differ massively between themselves.

Tman.6349:

Croc.5129:

Tman.6349:

Active Defenses already require proper timing for maximum gain. If you activate your dodge while no enemies are attacking, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resources. If you cast a reflect while their are only melee enemies attacking you, then you didn’t really gain much for the cost of your resource. This is similar to using a big offensive attack while you’re blinded or using your blast finisher while a Light Field is still active instead of waiting for the Fire Field to take priority. Just b/c Active Defenses are 100% effective on their own doesn’t mean you just spam them willy nilly and all is well. O.o Once again, you’re trying to equate gear prefixes as some kind of ‘role’ or ‘play style’. They are not those things at all. Plz get this concept through your head. Passive, personal offense/defense slider scale. Nothing more…

And the purpose of this scaling offense/defense? Why not another system? Why tie it to the amount of difficulty you will experience in the content instead of alternative options to effectively challenge the content?

Well why tie any mechanics to gear at all? That’s what you propose and hasn’t been done before. Suggesting that ACTIVE Defenses should be tied to passive stats is silly. There isn’t isn’t a similar mechanic for passive offensive stats so why should there be for defensive stats? Why would a build that already stacks tons of passive defense stats need access to stronger Active Defenses? Active Defenses are only useful in Active Combat if they are 100% effective. If they were scaled with passive defensive stats, that would defeat their whole purpose.

Not active defenses. Just the implementation of a mechanic that can take advantage of sturdiness, to turn it into a viable offensive option. GW2 added in dodge to allow the dps role to be free from its constraints within the trinity role, why not afford the same diversity to defensive stats, if we are going to have both exist side by side in the PvE environment.

Although I would really prefer nixing stats altogether. But since I will be speaking in hypotheticals anyway, I put forward the options that would garner the most scrutiny to facilitate conversation.

Harper.4173:

—Snip—

That is a pretty big generalization.

So that means PvErs like myself who have spent countless hours theory crafting every single combination available across all 8 professions with any augmentations from full offense to full defense and spending tons of gold putting these things into a play test have to go find another game or just stick to PvP?

That we should just be okay with every single PvE twitch streamer devolving all dungeon content into corner stacking kills and presenting the game as if we were running mobs into a grinder machine in minecraft?

I cannot be proud of content that is represented in that way.

WoW players can label themselves as Raiders and be proud of that. I want that same level of pride for GW2 PvErs.

What I’d like to see are additions to dungeons that leave the baseline experience alone but reward a bit of gear diversity and going out of your way.

Berzerker speedruns would stay the same, but what if there were completely optional side paths that could be opened on the way through, with extra rewards, that were more tuned to being tanky, or having better heals?

Areas where active defenses aren’t quite enough, non-rezable NPCs that need to be kept protected and healed to progress, persistent environmental damage in said area, or more.

Or perhaps side bosses you can DPS down, but maybe its faster to have more durable members keep them busy while half the party gains access with that giant cannon to shoot them with.

Ideally berserker gear users would still be able to do said areas. Just be more difficult for them.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

—Snip—

That is a pretty big generalization.

So that means PvErs like myself who have spent countless hours theory crafting every single combination available across all 8 professions with any augmentations from full offense to full defense and spending tons of gold putting these things into a play test have to go find another game or just stick to PvP?

That we should just be okay with every single PvE twitch streamer devolving all dungeon content into corner stacking kills and presenting the game as if we were running mobs into a grinder machine in minecraft?

I cannot be proud of content that is represented in that way.

WoW players can label themselves as Raiders and be proud of that. I want that same level of pride for GW2 PvErs.

I’d rather not see anything on scale of WoW raiding. Its certainly not anything worth being proud over.

Maxwell.7843:

I don’t understand, is there a “berserker problem”?

If the problem is “high DPS parties are more efficient in dungeons”, then I must say it does not seem like a problem to me, it’s seems logical: you do more damage, the bosses die faster.

Everyone is free to run whatever build they like, lfg gives everyone the option to join a group of like minded individuals.

I really don’t see the issue here…

There’s a problem because Zerker seems to be the only type of DPS that the devs are allowing to function properly in PVE. That’s the problem.

DPS dwindles on power and condition damage builds because of obvious design flaws that multiple people including those who review and study games everyday have mentioned yet here it is going on 3 years now and nothings been done save for a refocus on the e-sports fantasy. This game is not a DOTA we need results for PVE builds starting with stopping the everpresent flow of unnecessary PVE nerfs to alternative builds we keep seeing.

It’ s only about a year i play.
The more i see the zerker builds, the more i scratch my head, and by looking at this thread i almost reached my brain cortex.

I understand damage is part of the game and a contribute for everyone, i also like the lack of healers and tanks but it took a bad turn in my opinion. Not only aboput zerker.

There are almost never drawbacks in building tough or vitality, both open pve and dungeon, and while every kind of damage is gated zerker does not only remain the only affordable one but also hyperscales! If you compare Sinister with Zerker, both are glass cannon, you can see a load of difference in many builds in Zerker favor because that’ s how ferocity works!

These are the two problems with stats: condi is broken and ferocity is broken the other way around! I am fine with crit damage increase but making a stat ( that by definition is a basic pivot where you can build your character and that should be indipendent by his own) that relies mostly on other stats or traits/boons gives rotten results…

on top of this the IA, because stacking in front of a boss and zerking him down is idiotic in any case. I still get fun in some dungeons, but only because there is a tactical decision on “how we rotate to delete istantly faster this boss” rather than a challenge of power and skill.

Zerker by itself is not the true problem, but is the catalyst that makes everything of this worse.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Harper.4173:

—Snip—

That is a pretty big generalization.

So that means PvErs like myself who have spent countless hours theory crafting every single combination available across all 8 professions with any augmentations from full offense to full defense and spending tons of gold putting these things into a play test have to go find another game or just stick to PvP?

That we should just be okay with every single PvE twitch streamer devolving all dungeon content into corner stacking kills and presenting the game as if we were running mobs into a grinder machine in minecraft?

I cannot be proud of content that is represented in that way.

WoW players can label themselves as Raiders and be proud of that. I want that same level of pride for GW2 PvErs.

To your first question – no. You can still do that – but the core issue remains that this game is not the game you want it to be.

Dungeons and all content will always suffer this fate they will be reduced to their most basic and simplest with people using the best methods to power through the content.

It might be corner stacking now – it might be something else in the future -but the truth remains – PVE content is going to get “player optimized” at one point. People learn it by heart and power through it easily afterwards.

Also good parties don’t really stack in corners anymore since the FGS #4 nerf – the benefit is smaller now and for most fights not stacking is actually better.

Pride has nothing to do with it – the content is played the way the people want to play it.
Think of it like this : if people didn’t want to play the content the way they are right now they wouldn’t be. Nobody is forcing anyone to stack or finish dungeons faster by using speed clear tactics.

Sure – a few people might be doing it just to get groups (because they don’t feel like seeking out people similar to them) but the vast majority don’t really care about the “state of the content” and just want the rewards fast.

You can’t have the same level of PVE pride in GW2 since GW2’s PVE will never be on par with WoW raiding.
Again – because of the players.

As a related question : do you still play the game?

Lol when I saw this my brain thought up this:

All DPS GONE, ALL PLAYERS NOW HEALERS.

ZERKER PROBLEM SOLVED.

yanipheonu.5798:

Lol when I saw this my brain thought up this:

All DPS GONE, ALL PLAYERS NOW HEALERS.

ZERKER PROBLEM SOLVED.

well, if they add the possibility to overheal an enemy we can make bosses die of cancer…