Guild Wars 2

I’ve been here for 4 years. I own HoT and enjoy all of the new maps. Nicely challenging and rewarding.

Hopefully, they would consider adding at least one new ‘busier’ map to compete with SilverWastes for core Tyria players. Perhaps, it might lure a few older players back with new challenges. I miss many of the minor champs and map-fringe vets/champs that made exploring a map surprising. Some simple small story a lot of reuse would be fine. It could serve as a sort of preview of the challenge that awaits in the other expansion maps.

Anet has learned a lot with map events first with Dry Top and then with SilverWastes that ultimately lead to the HoT zone mechanics. It would have to be free of gliding/shroom and other advanced mechanics. There are still plenty of SW and DT mechanics that were never reused. The Bazaar of the Four Winds had a great variety of activities. Rediscovering that zone would be nice . .

It’s gone for lore reason…..

Mainly the Zephryrites mostly being in Dry Top / Silverwaste.

Which means that unless they leave DT/SW baron to migrate back home and rebuild its very unlikely to ever return.

Make new lore?

Just think of the gliding possibilities on that map.

To dive a bit further into why it’s gone for lore reasons: (spoiler alert for, uhh, anyone not in the know about anything HoT)

The entire zepherite airship/fleet was taken down by a sylvari with intimate knowledge of bombs.

This caused all the ships to crashland across the Silver Wastes and Dry Top.

During the crash land and the explosions, the aspect crystals, the very thing that allowed their ships to fly in the first place are all shattered and broken. What remaining pieces are left provide a much smaller benefit to the whole crystals that were available during the bazaar of the four winds, the rest are gone and unusable.

Unless there were to be a second, fully matured, Glint who then died and whose body could be harvested for the aspect crystals for the sake of the zephyrites, then it’s impossible for them to return and recreate the bazaar of the four winds.

I mean, it might be possible (considering Glints first scion could still be out there somewhere, he was alive at least during the events of the first game) but we don’t know for sure. More than likely though, it’s not going to happen.

The crystals in Dry Top work. Why can’t the crystals in the Labyrinth work?

castlemanic.3198:

During the crash land and the explosions, the aspect crystals, the very thing that allowed their ships to fly in the first place are all shattered and broken. What remaining pieces are left provide a much smaller benefit to the whole crystals that were available during the bazaar of the four winds, the rest are gone and unusable.

Unless there were to be a second, fully matured, Glint who then died and whose body could be harvested for the aspect crystals for the sake of the zephyrites, then it’s impossible for them to return and recreate the bazaar of the four winds

I kinda covered that Chad.

castlemanic.3198:

castlemanic.3198:

During the crash land and the explosions, the aspect crystals, the very thing that allowed their ships to fly in the first place are all shattered and broken. What remaining pieces are left provide a much smaller benefit to the whole crystals that were available during the bazaar of the four winds, the rest are gone and unusable.

Unless there were to be a second, fully matured, Glint who then died and whose body could be harvested for the aspect crystals for the sake of the zephyrites, then it’s impossible for them to return and recreate the bazaar of the four winds

I kinda covered that Chad.

So the crystals in the Labyrinth don’t work because [reasons] but the ones in Dry Top work because……?

Chad.6104:

So the crystals in the Labyrinth don’t work because Glint is dead but the ones in Dry Top work because……?

That’s….. that’s not what I said at all. Like, not even in the slightest.

Here’s the lore. The crystals that the zephyrites have used, no matter where we’ve seen them, were all harvested from Glint after her death. So Glint’s death doesn’t matter to how usable the aspect crystals are, Glint’s death is relevant because of how much is available. There isn’t a limitless supply of these aspect crystals because they came from a single source, Glint’s body after her death. So, with that in mind, the zephyrites harvested all the aspect crystals that they could from Glint’s body (to make sure that nobody could use or abuse them to nefarious ends). This means there isn’t any spare ones they can pick up.

So, they come to Labyrinth, chill for a bit and have a few crystals lying about. Nowhere near their entire stock (as that’s the very thing that keeps their ships afloat), but there’s a few lying around for the player to use. Presumably the commander goes out of their way to hand back the crystals.

They leave, come back a second time, same sort of stuff, and then leave (assuming that the activities don’t have a lore reason behind them, if they do then it’s probably the zephyrites teaching us games that they’ve made with the aspect crystals, again we probably give them back).

THEN, the whole thing happens with the sylvari and the bomb, crashing all the ships and shattering all the crystals. We can assume this happened lorewise because the ships kinda drop from the air after the explosions, instead of being able to keep what’s left of the ships floating in the air. So, with the aspect crystals shattered, there would remain a few larger pieces that can be used, but at minimal strength, meaning that those crystals would NOT be able to support the zephyrite ships. The rest of the crystals are, more than likely, shattered beyond the ability to be used.

That should cover it.

Asuran’s create a holographic projection of the old LC and you get to visit it again.

There, lore fixed.

Ramoth.9064:

Asuran’s create a holographic projection of the old LC and you get to visit it again.

There, lore fixed.

Not exactly…

The greatest use of holographic technology that I know of would be the super adventure box and taimi’s holographic area in the dragon lab. This could be used, but the only person who’s really capable of it is Moto (the guy who created super adventure box). While he COULD do it, he is more than likely focused on finishing SAB. Even when he aided Taimi with her little holographic program, he still inserted the graphics of SAB into the project that was supposed to replicate destroyers. So it’s unlikely that he’ll be willing to create a lifelike recreation of the Labyrinth.

Unless there’s another super obvious example of holographic technology that can be physically interacted with, the zephyrite themed Labyrinth is gone for the moment.

Honestly, a fractal would be the most logical way at this point, except it would be full of hostiles which may take away the appeal for many.

castlemanic.3198:

Chad.6104:

So the crystals in the Labyrinth don’t work because Glint is dead but the ones in Dry Top work because……?

That’s….. that’s not what I said at all. Like, not even in the slightest.

Here’s the lore. The crystals that the zephyrites have used, no matter where we’ve seen them, were all harvested from Glint after her death. So Glint’s death doesn’t matter to how usable the aspect crystals are, Glint’s death is relevant because of how much is available. There isn’t a limitless supply of these aspect crystals because they came from a single source, Glint’s body after her death. So, with that in mind, the zephyrites harvested all the aspect crystals that they could from Glint’s body (to make sure that nobody could use or abuse them to nefarious ends). This means there isn’t any spare ones they can pick up.

So, they come to Labyrinth, chill for a bit and have a few crystals lying about. Nowhere near their entire stock (as that’s the very thing that keeps their ships afloat), but there’s a few lying around for the player to use. Presumably the commander goes out of their way to hand back the crystals.

They leave, come back a second time, same sort of stuff, and then leave (assuming that the activities don’t have a lore reason behind them, if they do then it’s probably the zephyrites teaching us games that they’ve made with the aspect crystals, again we probably give them back).

THEN, the whole thing happens with the sylvari and the bomb, crashing all the ships and shattering all the crystals. We can assume this happened lorewise because the ships kinda drop from the air after the explosions, instead of being able to keep what’s left of the ships floating in the air. So, with the aspect crystals shattered, there would remain a few larger pieces that can be used, but at minimal strength, meaning that those crystals would NOT be able to support the zephyrite ships. The rest of the crystals are, more than likely, shattered beyond the ability to be used.

That should cover it.

Then as I said above, make new lore. One thing about lore from an imaginary world is that you can always make more as needed.

Example: An aspiring Asuran genius who has been studying the Labyrinth map has learned how to [make new items that work like those crystals] [found a way to fuse cracked crystals together, which caused them to refill with dragon magic from the increased magic in the world] [or put in jump pads as a means to get around the area he’s studying]. Old lore doesn’t rule out new lore.

The Zephyrites aren’t the only ones with flying ships. They could use Tyrian designed ships.

Chad.6104:

Then as I said above, make new lore. One thing about lore from an imaginary world is that you can always make more as needed.

Example: An aspiring Asuran genius who has been studying the Labyrinth map has learned how to [make new items that work like those crystals] [found a way to fuse cracked crystals together, which caused them to refill with dragon magic from the increased magic in the world] [or put in jump pads as a means to get around the area he’s studying]. Old lore doesn’t rule out new lore.

Old lore kinda does rule out new lore, otherwise that would be retconning and god knows how many people are tired of the retconning of all the lore from the first game. Just randomly making up new lore isn’t good storytelling, this IS an RPG after all, even if it has the MMO in front of it.

If old lore states the mursaat were mostly wiped out, then Lazarus put two fingers into his mouth and whistled like he was calling for a horse in an old western movie, bringing in an army of mursaat that suddenly float from the heavens, that would be a retcon, a very bad retcon and would basically ruin the point of anything that happens currently in lore. So yes, old lore DOES trump new lore in some facets.

As for your example above, the crystals are harvested from [b]a purified champion of Kralkatorrik, the elder dragon of presumably sky and crystal, which had corrupted Glint in the first place[/i]. That’s a combination so unique I couldn’t possibly find the numbers to tell you the odds of finding that again. There isn’t really a way of replicating it short of, well, another Glint dying so that her corpse could be harvested. It’s impossible otherwise.

Killing Glint’s first scion is a good solution for zephyrites (assuming that he is mature enough and has the same magical capabilities and essentially situation as Glint that would result in the generation of harvestable aspect crystals upon his death), but it’s not good storytelling to suddenly reintroduce such a HUGE loose thread from Guild Wars only for it to result in moving this specific plot forward. With masterful work it might be possible, but for now this loose thread needs proper treatment from ArenaNet’s storytelling team, and that isn’t this dragon’s immediate death to revive the zephyrites.

TexZero.7910:

It’s gone for lore reason…..

Mainly the Zephryrites mostly being in Dry Top / Silverwaste.

Which means that unless they leave DT/SW baron to migrate back home and rebuild its very unlikely to ever return.

ehh if we talk about lore should the zephryrites be at tarrir by now? I mean even by foot they would have reached by now

DarcShriek.5829:

The Zephyrites aren’t the only ones with flying ships. They could use Tyrian designed ships.

The whole zephyrite thing started out because they were meant to be the protectors of Glint. That’s kinda their whole thing, a culture of pacifism surrounding the teachings of Glint, and also the protection of Glint and her scions. Seemingly, they sought to protect Aurene’s egg through kinda staying off the ground, but after Scarlet awakened Mordremoth, well, that lead to the (literal) fall of the zephyrites. With Aurene awakened, I can see there being a split in the zephyrites. One faction would (attempt) to go to Tarir to aid in the protection of Aurene (actually why haven’t we heard from the zephyrites?), while the other would attempt to return to the peace that they found within the skies. They would still require a shift in culture though, because the demands of an engineered airship is far different than the demands of a flying ship powered by Glint’s aspect crystals.

It could work. This I can see as being a direction that can be taken with the zephyrites. It would leave out the whole aspect crystals thing, but at least it would get the zephyrites back in the air.

The only problem is who is going to build the airships for the zephyrites? The airships were made for the pact and armed with deadly weaponry. The only other users of airships were the aetherblades who, well, stole pact airships. Unless the zephyrites have massively shifted their culture, I don’t see how they could come to accept pact airships. So that means a third party is going to have to build them, which, I doubt the zephyrites have enough money for that but I could be wrong, they did go to the Labyrinth to sell their wares and so made some semblance of money.

castlemanic.3198:

Chad.6104:

Then as I said above, make new lore. One thing about lore from an imaginary world is that you can always make more as needed.

Example: An aspiring Asuran genius who has been studying the Labyrinth map has learned how to [make new items that work like those crystals] [found a way to fuse cracked crystals together, which caused them to refill with dragon magic from the increased magic in the world] [or put in jump pads as a means to get around the area he’s studying]. Old lore doesn’t rule out new lore.

Old lore kinda does rule out new lore, otherwise that would be retconning and god knows how many people are tired of the retconning of all the lore from the first game. Just randomly making up new lore isn’t good storytelling, this IS an RPG after all, even if it has the MMO in front of it.

If old lore states the mursaat were mostly wiped out, then Lazarus put two fingers into his mouth and whistled like he was calling for a horse in an old western movie, bringing in an army of mursaat that suddenly float from the heavens, that would be a retcon, a very bad retcon and would basically ruin the point of anything that happens currently in lore. So yes, old lore DOES trump new lore in some facets.

As for your example above, the crystals are harvested from [b]a purified champion of Kralkatorrik, the elder dragon of presumably sky and crystal, which had corrupted Glint in the first place[/i]. That’s a combination so unique I couldn’t possibly find the numbers to tell you the odds of finding that again. There isn’t really a way of replicating it short of, well, another Glint dying so that her corpse could be harvested. It’s impossible otherwise.

Killing Glint’s first scion is a good solution for zephyrites (assuming that he is mature enough and has the same magical capabilities and essentially situation as Glint that would result in the generation of harvestable aspect crystals upon his death), but it’s not good storytelling to suddenly reintroduce such a HUGE loose thread from Guild Wars only for it to result in moving this specific plot forward. With masterful work it might be possible, but for now this loose thread needs proper treatment from ArenaNet’s storytelling team, and that isn’t this dragon’s immediate death to revive the zephyrites.

So jump pads then in place of the crystals which have been modified by the Asuran genius studying the Labyrinth to work like the crystals did. Dash, leap up in air and jump across open areas. And there’s your lore update that allows the Cliffs to work and doesn’t touch your crystals. Problem solved.

Chad.6104:

So jump pads then in place of the crystals which have been modified by the Asuran genius studying the Labyrinth to work like the crystals did. Dash, leap up in air and jump you across open areas. And there’s your lore update that allows the Cliffs to work and doesn’t touch your crystals. Problem solved.

Why would an Asura be studying the Labyrinth though? That’s a place of trade, of illegal trade if I remember. What use does an area of illegal trade have to do with an Asura studying the area? And what would make the Asura come up with the idea of jump pads as a relevant mode of travel? Why would this be a thing that they Asura came up with, especially since gliding is now abundant within the world? The Asura clearly couldn’t come up with the jump pads just by studying the Labyrinth itself, the Labyrinth wasn’t the source of the aspect crystals. What would bring the former commander of the pact to the Labyrinth in the first place?

Remember, the first time we went, we were specifically asked to go investigate it, specifically because this was related to the coming of the Zephyrites who only landed when they needed supplies and this was basically an opportunity to greet them to the world. If we were to return, we’d need another reason to go there beyond “well hey it was cool that one time”.

Mashing two things together just because you have a sense of nostalgia does not make good storytelling. If you want to propose a reason as to why we go to the Labyrinth, why there are jump pads, why the asura who created jump pads is studying the area, this needs a lot more thinking to it. If you only want a vague thing cause it was cool that one time, then I’d say that ArenaNet should focus on other content instead. Otherwise, if you have ideas then awesome! Share them! Brushing up on lore would help with that too.

castlemanic.3198:

Chad.6104:

So jump pads then in place of the crystals which have been modified by the Asuran genius studying the Labyrinth to work like the crystals did. Dash, leap up in air and jump you across open areas. And there’s your lore update that allows the Cliffs to work and doesn’t touch your crystals. Problem solved.

Why would an Asura be studying the Labyrinth though? That’s a place of trade, of illegal trade if I remember. What use does an area of illegal trade have to do with an Asura studying the area? And what would make the Asura come up with the idea of jump pads as a relevant mode of travel? Why would this be a thing that they Asura came up with, especially since gliding is now abundant within the world? The Asura clearly couldn’t come up with the jump pads just by studying the Labyrinth itself, the Labyrinth wasn’t the source of the aspect crystals. What would bring the former commander of the pact to the Labyrinth in the first place?

Remember, the first time we went, we were specifically asked to go investigate it, specifically because this was related to the coming of the Zephyrites who only landed when they needed supplies and this was basically an opportunity to greet them to the world. If we were to return, we’d need another reason to go there beyond “well hey it was cool that one time”.

Mashing two things together just because you have a sense of nostalgia does not make good storytelling. If you want to propose a reason as to why we go to the Labyrinth, why there are jump pads, why the asura who created jump pads is studying the area, this needs a lot more thinking to it. If you only want a vague thing cause it was cool that one time, then I’d say that ArenaNet should focus on other content instead. Otherwise, if you have ideas then awesome! Share them! Brushing up on lore would help with that too.

Why would an Asura be studying the Labyrinth though?

He was studying any old, left behind crystals because they were a part of Glint? He was looking for left behind books and literature? He was studying the area because it might have ties to Cantha? (Hinted at back then). He was studying it looking for information about the water dragon since those people were rumored to fly over the ocean?

“And what would make the Asura come up with the idea of jump pads as a relevant mode of travel? Why would this be a thing that they Asura came up with, especially since gliding is now abundant within the world?"

Gliding doesn’t get you upwards, only across and down. He would need something to cross gaps and go upward to the top of the stuctures. The crystals used to do that and since jump pads are already known he could use and modify them.

Chad.6104:

Why would an Asura be studying the Labyrinth though?

He was studying any old, left behind crystals because they were a part of Glint? He was looking for left behind books and literature? He was studying the area because it might have ties to Cantha? (Hinted at back then). He was studying it looking for information about the water dragon since those people were rumored to fly over the ocean?

Remember, it’s an illegal trading route, there are less than stellar people here, so finding any of that stuff is a lot harder than it normally would be. This isn’t great but it’s a good start.

“And what would make the Asura come up with the idea of jump pads as a relevant mode of travel? Why would this be a thing that they Asura came up with, especially since gliding is now abundant within the world?"

Gliding doesn’t get you upwards, only across and down. He would need something to cross gaps and go upward to the top of the stuctures. The crystals used to do that and since jump pads are already known he could use and modify them.

But there are air currents and leylines that run all throughout the world (not through core tyria because they don’t want to modify core tyria mapes with HoT stuff. Apart from the current events stuff, there’s nothing related to the main story that is placed within core tyria). That would also be a lot of jump pads that would need to be placed, which is extra resources that an asura would need if they were going to explore the area.

None of that explains why the former commander of the pact would need to visit the place.

Good start but needs a lot of work, keep going!

castlemanic.3198:

Chad.6104:

Why would an Asura be studying the Labyrinth though?

He was studying any old, left behind crystals because they were a part of Glint? He was looking for left behind books and literature? He was studying the area because it might have ties to Cantha? (Hinted at back then). He was studying it looking for information about the water dragon since those people were rumored to fly over the ocean?

Remember, it’s an illegal trading route, there are less than stellar people here, so finding any of that stuff is a lot harder than it normally would be. This isn’t great but it’s a good start.

“And what would make the Asura come up with the idea of jump pads as a relevant mode of travel? Why would this be a thing that they Asura came up with, especially since gliding is now abundant within the world?"

Gliding doesn’t get you upwards, only across and down. He would need something to cross gaps and go upward to the top of the stuctures. The crystals used to do that and since jump pads are already known he could use and modify them.

But there are air currents and leylines that run all throughout the world (not through core tyria because they don’t want to modify core tyria mapes with HoT stuff. Apart from the current events stuff, there’s nothing related to the main story that is placed within core tyria). That would also be a lot of jump pads that would need to be placed, which is extra resources that an asura would need if they were going to explore the area.

None of that explains why the former commander of the pact would need to visit the place.

Good start but needs a lot of work, keep going!

“None of that explains why the former commander of the pact would need to visit the place”.

If the Asuran found something about Cantha or the Water Dragon or information about Glint, the commander couldn’t waypoint to the closest spot and go in for a look see? I bet s/he could.

The difficulties you mention are nowhere near insurmountable. If Arenanet wanted to put in that map with new traders/new lore, they could easily do so. (After all, gliding was added to the game and lore with very little need for a deep explanation. Just fill out mastery lines by killing stuff and harvesting nodes and Ta Da! you can glide). I think some jumpads are doable.

Chad.6104:

“None of that explains why the former commander of the pact would need to visit the place”.

If the Asuran found something about Cantha or the Water Dragon or information about Glint, the commander couldn’t waypoint to the closest spot and go in for a look see? I bet s/he could.

This is some jumping you take here. Never said the commander couldn’t make it to the Labyrinth, I said why should the commander go there. Two different questions.

Speaking of the question you DID answer, beyond any Canthan information that could aid with the destruction of the elder dragons, there isn’t much that info about Cantha can do for the commander. That’s more Priory territory. Unless the water dragon is about to attack, info about it is unnecesary at this point in the story because we’re not only dealing with two elder dragons at the same time, but also we’re dealing with Lazarus and whatever the hell he is. Info about Glint would be nice but again, that’s Priory territory, it’s not truly relevant unless it can help defeat the elder dragons.

The difficulties you mention are nowhere near insurmountable. If Arenanet wanted to put in that map with new traders/new lore, they could easily do so. (After all, gliding was added to the game and lore with very little need for a deep explanation. Just fill out mastery lines by killing stuff and harvesting nodes and Ta Da! you can glide). I think some jumpads are doable.

If they’re nowhere near insurmountable, then you shouldn’t have a problem coming up with valid lore. ArenaNet currently have a story dealing with two god tier forces in the world that may lead to countless deaths across the map, alongside with a being of such power that could spoilerabsorb the energy of an exploding bloodstone. You kind of have to give a good enough reason for the commander to put all of that aside just to go to the Labyrinth.

Gliding is a very real world phenomena. It’s not something so unique to GW2 that it needs tons of lore explanation as to explain why we can suddenly do it. Following the amazing invention of airships through the combination of charr, asura and human technology, gliding seems like something that, well, should have happened earlier but didn’t.

Some jump pads are doable, I agree, but from what I remember there were a LOT of wind and lightning crystals around the labyrinth. Plus the power provided by the aspect crystals gives conveniences that jump pads simply don’t have: freedom of movement. Once you acquired a wind crystal, you could freely move around and jump anywhere you pleased. Jump pads, as we’ve seen them, need to be placed in a single area, can’t be moved and can’t be taken with you once the jump pad has been placed. That means several jump pads would need to replace a single wind crystal. That’s more than an asura could afford. A krewe, maybe, but why would a krewe go out of their way to investigate an illegal trading route? Possible information about the water dragon, glint or cantha wouldn’t really be useful for a krewe. Priory might want their hands on that info, but how would they get their hands on it in an illegal trading route? That’s also assuming that all the relevant information hasn’t already been pilfered by less than stellar people. And again, why would any of this information require more than a cursory visit by the commander to see what’s going on? Unless there’s an emissary from Cantha who says that the Canthan Empire is willing to provide aid for the fight against the elder dragons, there really isn’t that much of a reason for the commander to drop everything they’re doing right not to visit the Labyrinth.

These things aren’t insurmountable, but visiting the labyrinth is pretty contradictory to what’s going on right now story wise (or what may go on in future episodes).You’d have to work pretty hard to find a good reason. Keep at it, you can figure something out eventually.

@castlemanic.3198

What I’m seeing of your argument is that as of today it doesn’t fit the lore. What you’re ignoring is that the Devs can make new lore any day and time they choose and if they wanted to bring back that map they could do it by adding new lore, and they don’t need to break existing old lore to do so. I don’t see your arguments as valid as it doesnt recognize that new lore can be added to the game at any time to change things completely (just like gliding was added with no deep lore to back it up).

So yes, an Asuran researcher and if you insist, his Krewe, and some jump pads are doable and within the lore (and certainly not near as lore bending than learning how to glide by killing and harvesting).

And since we are going around the same points at this time, I’ll going to allow you to have the last word (where you will attempt to tell me that arenanet can’t add lore and jumpads to bring back this map and which I won’t be convinced by).

I really miss this place too and wish it would come back.

Zephyrites have had three years now to rebuild some ships and get back to their cliffs.

Let us there! Loved that place.

One of the best locations created to the game and it’s just silly to keep it away.

Yeah the new maps are fun, but they often feel a bit “throwaway”. They’re small-ish, feature packed but not built to last a long time. Get very stale very fast, and have little reason to come back once you farmed those 1-2 items you wanted.

I was talking to guildies yesterday, and I’d totally go for an opposite. A gigantic, 4-8 normal size, desert map which takes ages to roam around and has tons of spaced out events going on, there’s a fast-travel option available but all the waypoints are at the edge so walking into the middle carries some risk if you get overwhelmed.

Chad.6104:

What I’m seeing of your argument is that as of today it doesn’t fit the lore. What you’re ignoring is that the Devs can make new lore any day and time they choose and if they wanted to bring back that map they could do it by adding new lore, and they don’t need to break existing old lore to do so. I don’t see your arguments as valid as it doesnt recognize that new lore can be added to the game at any time to change things completely (just like gliding was added with no deep lore to back it up).

So yes, an Asuran researcher and if you insist, his Krewe, and some jump pads are doable and within the lore (and certainly not near as lore bending than learning how to glide by killing and harvesting).

And since we are going around the same points at this time, I’ll going to allow you to have the last word (where you will attempt to tell me that arenanet can’t add lore and jumpads to bring back this map and which I won’t be convinced by).

Here’s the truth of the matter. ArenaNet doesn’t have to do anything that you suggest. They can do anything with the lore, that is true, but some things work better with the story than other things. There needs to be a legitimate reason why the commander would NEED to go back to the labyrinth for it to work lorewise, which you still haven’t provided. Simply wanting to go back to a place does not make a good reason to go visit it. ArenaNet have their own schedule for their own lore and if you want them to break away from that to remake the Labyrinth, you had better come up with a good enough reason why, and so far you haven’t. Those ARE valid reasons, whether you choose to see them as such or not.

Here’s an example of lore that Anet shouldn’t add: playable orcs. They can if they desired, but it would change the aesthetic of GW2. Not as drastically, going to the Labyrinth needs a logical explanation for why the commander, with so much on their plate, would take time out of their day to go to the Labyrinth. If you remain unconvinced, so be it, but the reasons are there, they make sense. “Making up new lore” is not a good idea if it does not build upon previous lore, and it’s an especially terrible idea if it ignores previous lore all together. No one wants lore breaking stuff. It occasionally happens (you never truly die in GW2, you’re just defeated, even if you fall from a height that would kill a human god or spirit of the wild), but in those moments, game mechanics trump lore. Simply bringing back something cause it would be cool is not a good lore reason, nor is it a good use of resources on ArenaNet’s end if they can’t justify us going there beyond “hey it was cool that one time”. ArenaNet have better things to do than simply bring back something you like. They have a game that they need to push forward, to develop, so that the players can continue to enjoy the world and see new things.

Unless ArenaNet were somehow in the process of developing Living World season 1 for replayability, it’s not going to happen with the current lore.

As for gliding, again, this is a natural phenomena of physics. It doesn’t need lore explanations the same way that stabbing people with your sword doesn’t need a lore explanation, since it’s assumed that because it can happen in real life, it can happen in a video game.

I don’t see why they couldn’t reuse the map, modified a bit, and change the update the story so no retcon is needed. Maybe someone else sets up a bazaar there, maybe some updrafts opened up after an earthquake, no new crystals needed. It also doesn’t have to be mission critical to go there, just look at the SAB festival. We have 0 story reasons to return there this year, but there it is anyway.

Screw the lore, honestly. This map looks like it was a ton of fun, and I can’t see a good reason to keep it from players. Would be a nice new core map for everyone to enjoy.

you know, for lore reasons they’re gone.. but the labyrinthine cliffs still exist.
We could have a new area: Forsaken Cliffs.
Some Zephyrites survived the crash, and we saved them in Dry Top. Now they went back “home” to make to rebuild, but it will be a very sad place. Very few zephyrites, mostly wrecks, and a very gloomy atmosphere. That would be a lore-friendly way to return. But we wouldn’t have the “nice” labyrinthine cliffs anymore

The Labyrinthine Cliffs are still full of the people who live there. The Festival of the Four Winds was simply a trading event that occurs whenever the Zephyrites (who do NOT live there) go there to trade with the people who do live there.

Ergo, there is still plenty of reason for OTHER traders who do have airships (i.e. Lion’s Arch, the Pact, Aetherblades) to go there and thus a reason for us to return as well.

The problem is that they would need to heavily redesign the zone to remove all of the Zephyrite ships, which is why the zone won’t return.

While a lot of what has been said is true, Lore-wise…there is nothing to keep the “Commander” from setting up a way to “re-settle” any Zephyrites back to the cliffs (which remember was just a “seasonal stop” for the Zephyrites) using the Pact airships, who would want out of Dry-top to a more hospitable location.

Really it wouldn’t impact much lore…and could be done in such a way to not make it a huge undertaking on the backend…though a cinematic or 2 would be cool showing some travel in the airhships and what-not…but it wouldn’t be “necessary”. It would also open up another area for return steps in future content updates/expansions. And yes, I do understand the kind of work it would take to revamp the map to add in gliding, so I do appreciate the time/manpower constraint. Its a small enough area maybe adding in 1 or 2 of the repeatable hearts might also be possible in the future; not necessarily there if it were to return…but be added in later, as a slow progression of the development of the area as a Zephyrite Settlement.

I’m just hopeful that this thread might put it in the back of someone’s mind as a potential “cool thing for the players”. You never know…Gaile is pretty cool about passing along ideas and suggestions that may not be done immediately…but we may be surprised with down the road.

I 100% support this idea, and hope it gets shared with many. It never hurts to creatively and respectfully suggest things like this. So far this thread has had great point-counterpoint posts, and I hope it continues.

Thanks Castle, Chad, and Thorfinnr for the elaboration.

I never realized that it was the entire Zephyrite fleet that crashed. Is there a Cliff’s notes version somewhere? I need to read up on that lore. Back then I was a bit overwhelmed by the all of the story I had to consume . .

The ‘cliffs’ didn’t crash. It’s just a map area with fun stuff. The crystal shards are still used in DryTop as mentioned. Perhaps they are just useless bits as far as ships are concerned.

Maybe we could take a boat there since there was water around it. Or another airship as mentioned above. If the quartz nodes upset the economy. Take away the buckets and/or make us work for them.

Agreed – This has been a good discussion.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Living_World_season_2

That is a good ’cliff’s notes’ version of the Zephyrite involvement after the bazaar.

It’s easy to solve issues related to lore, even if it’s only through a ridiculous excuse for a festival (e.g. Super Adventure Box makes little sense except as an excuse for an April Fool’s, which turned out to be popular enough to bring back yearly).

So perhaps it’s more productive to look at what sorts of things we liked doing during the Zephyrite festival. A lot of us would like to see a summer festival (there’s a “festival drought” from April until October).

The Bazaar of the Four Winds included:

• New Zone, with unique events.
• Unique jumping puzzles using special skills.
• Festival-related achievements & events.
• Sanctum Sprint (still available today)
• Quartz farm
• All karma foods available for purchase.
• Material conversion vendors (get rid of cheap leather!, um, well, maybe get rid of cheap gossamer!).

I don’t see anything on that list that couldn’t be brought back under a different format for some entirely different festival.

tl;dr Labyrinthe Cliffs were fun, but there’s nothing about them that can’t be made available through some other sort of zone, festival.

The map is already done, and its good. It is a shame not to use it. IMO using the brain to create good lore so it makes sense to get back there is well invested development work. Since the map already exists, they don’t need to make everything from zero, so its less resources invested for a full playable map.
I think it is a great idea.

Besides, what does it even matter after all that Zephyrites crashed? We jump to the past all the time in plenty of maps anyway.

In Orr Zhaitan is still alive, in HoT maps Mordy is still alive. In personal story we jump even into pre-Scarlet LA. Endless amount of examples.

It could be just a fixed point of pre-crash time if no better solution is made up.

Main point is that it’s amazing event and it would be even more amazing to get it back!

I would love to see LC as a Guild Hall in the future. Or as an outpost or base for when we go after Kral.

castlemanic.3198:

DarcShriek.5829:

The Zephyrites aren’t the only ones with flying ships. They could use Tyrian designed ships.

The whole zephyrite thing started out because they were meant to be the protectors of Glint. That’s kinda their whole thing, a culture of pacifism surrounding the teachings of Glint, and also the protection of Glint and her scions. Seemingly, they sought to protect Aurene’s egg through kinda staying off the ground, but after Scarlet awakened Mordremoth, well, that lead to the (literal) fall of the zephyrites. With Aurene awakened, I can see there being a split in the zephyrites. One faction would (attempt) to go to Tarir to aid in the protection of Aurene (actually why haven’t we heard from the zephyrites?), while the other would attempt to return to the peace that they found within the skies. They would still require a shift in culture though, because the demands of an engineered airship is far different than the demands of a flying ship powered by Glint’s aspect crystals.

It could work. This I can see as being a direction that can be taken with the zephyrites. It would leave out the whole aspect crystals thing, but at least it would get the zephyrites back in the air.

The only problem is who is going to build the airships for the zephyrites? The airships were made for the pact and armed with deadly weaponry. The only other users of airships were the aetherblades who, well, stole pact airships. Unless the zephyrites have massively shifted their culture, I don’t see how they could come to accept pact airships. So that means a third party is going to have to build them, which, I doubt the zephyrites have enough money for that but I could be wrong, they did go to the Labyrinth to sell their wares and so made some semblance of money.

Zephyrites have no reason to go to Tarir now. Their entire mission was to protect the egg until Tarir was ready.

The cultural shift wouldn’t be that great. The biggest shift has already occurred as their main motivation, to protect the egg, is gone. Now they would simply be traders, which is how they’ve made a living until now anyways. Also, they began to allow Tyrians on to the ships the last time we saw them. Being merchants, it wouldn’t be a problem to hire the engineers to maintain the technology until the Zephyrites could do it themselves.

As far as building the ships, the same people that built the ships for the pact could build them. They would be cheaper because they wouldn’t require as much armor and weaponry. We owe the Zephyrites a favor anyways, because they helped to rebuild Lions Arch.

So, I remember the cliffs – what, really, was that map other than a bit of a festival event farm (for the festival currency), crystal farm, and champion train (because if you got enough people, the only real mobs were ~4-5 champs on the way up), with some unique movement skills thrown in?

I’m not against bringing it back, there are certainly legitimate arguments why it shouldn’t just be blocked off forever, but I’m confused on why everyone is claiming it was some amazing map that should be permanently accessible. There were some mobs that spawned for the events, but I think if you brought it back permanently (rather than as a festival) that it would become fairly barren after a month or three, save for the few people trying to farm/craft Celestial (which, is there even a build/class that -truly- shines with Celestial at this point?).

Personally, I really like the idea of making it available as a summer festival.

I don’t understand why we can’t have Labyrinthine Cliffs. Remember what ANet said about maps being in their own slice of time? The Labyrinthine Cliffs could just exist in a time before the Living World took the Zephyrites away, and everything would be fine lore-wise.

My guess as to why it doesn’t return is that there was nothing really compelling keeping people coming back (something they put a lot of effort into addressing with HoT/SW/DT); it would likely be a very dead map like Southsun Cove.

I think the Labyrinthine map would make a great yearly festival map. If it’s a festival map it can be set in the time before HoT with merchants and crystals and events. Not only does the game need a summertime festival but it could be a great sink for low level mats. It would need the merchants to sell new items though, as the old items are already available. Maybe a yearly set of new weapons or a few minis. The gliding from that map would be great though.

It could be brought back, but more likely as a memorial site to the zephryite master(s). Lore wise, that would/should be an amendable tweak. It might not be as upbeat and cheery as it was before, but it’d be a memorial festival nonetheless.

castlemanic.3198:

There needs to be a legitimate reason why the commander would NEED to go back to the labyrinth for it to work lorewise, which you still haven’t provided.

I want to take a moment to target this argument and shoot it down, if I may?

Tell me, what lore reason did they give for the commander to go hunting after the stray bloodstone shards that fell across Tyria? For tracking the Destroyer movements underground? Facing the new bandit champions? Magical energy eruptions? How about the rifts?

The fact is, most of these don’t actually have a plot that requires the commander to be there. They are interesting events, and “someone” looks into them. That someone can be pretty much anyone, though. And with the Commander now trying to put together a new guild, it would be really easy for someone to show up and say that they’ve been sent by the Commander to keep an eye on the situation.

I would also like to say that there’s no reason why the Zepherites wouldn’t try to rebuild, and some researchers would consider it a challenge to replicate the effects of the aspect crystals. Throw that out as a challenge to enough asura, and you’ll have a dozen teams working on it, just to show up the others. (And may the six help them all if someone from another race manages to do it better.) In fact, rebuilding the Sanctum could lead to new innovations in the design of the next generation of Pact airships. (And I’m sure the now undermanned Pact would love to convince some of the Zepherites to train a new wave of pilots.)

Finally, as to one of the real functions of the zone… the economy. We’ve all seen some stuff that, from a player point of view, looks pretty questionable as ANet tries to balance prices. They seem to have forgotten that the Festival of the Four Winds was made to help with that, by giving new value to under-priced resources. It would be nice to see this return, instead of things like adjusting recipes to require more resources, only to have the change persist far past the point of helping.

Palador.2170:

I want to take a moment to target this argument and shoot it down, if I may?

You absolutely can, no one is stopping you.

Tell me, what lore reason did they give for the commander to go hunting after the stray bloodstone shards that fell across Tyria? For tracking the Destroyer movements underground? Facing the new bandit champions? Magical energy eruptions? How about the rifts?

The fact is, most of these don’t actually have a plot that requires the commander to be there. They are interesting events, and “someone” looks into them. That someone can be pretty much anyone, though. And with the Commander now trying to put together a new guild, it would be really easy for someone to show up and say that they’ve been sent by the Commander to keep an eye on the situation.

None of those required the creation of an entire zone to accomplish, plus they were current events, not Living World Season 3 episodes. Vast difference between the two.

I would also like to say that there’s no reason why the Zepherites wouldn’t try to rebuild,

Never said they couldn’t, in fact:

-snip-
With Aurene awakened, I can see there being a split in the zephyrites. One faction would (attempt) to go to Tarir to aid in the protection of Aurene (actually why haven’t we heard from the zephyrites?), while the other would attempt to return to the peace that they found within the skies. They would still require a shift in culture though, because the demands of an engineered airship is far different than the demands of a flying ship powered by Glint’s aspect crystals.

It could work. This I can see as being a direction that can be taken with the zephyrites. It would leave out the whole aspect crystals thing, but at least it would get the zephyrites back in the air. -snip-

I specifically mentioned two possibilities about how the zephyrites could rebuild. One of them turned out to be wrong as mentioned by DarcShriek so presumably they’d go the other direction. DarcShriek also mentioned how they could attain airships through means I never thought of.

and some researchers would consider it a challenge to replicate the effects of the aspect crystals. Throw that out as a challenge to enough asura, and you’ll have a dozen teams working on it, just to show up the others. (And may the six help them all if someone from another race manages to do it better.) In fact, rebuilding the Sanctum could lead to new innovations in the design of the next generation of Pact airships. (And I’m sure the now undermanned Pact would love to convince some of the Zepherites to train a new wave of pilots.)

Maybe. I consider it unlikely that anyone would be able to figure out how to replicate the aspect crystals (considering how Glint was first corrupted by Kralk, then purified by the forgotten, then died in a battle against Kralk. Again, unless Glint’s first scion were to die, this seems quite unattainable at the moment), especially considering how there already exists technology to create airships, so what need would there be if the zephyrites simply wanted airships. Unless the zephyrites need something similar to aspect crystals for specific purposes, there doesn’t seem to be a need to remake the wheel, so to speak.

Finally, as to one of the real functions of the zone… the economy. We’ve all seen some stuff that, from a player point of view, looks pretty questionable as ANet tries to balance prices. They seem to have forgotten that the Festival of the Four Winds was made to help with that, by giving new value to under-priced resources. It would be nice to see this return, instead of things like adjusting recipes to require more resources, only to have the change persist far past the point of helping.

I haven’t commented on the thread to give my thoughts about the festival idea, but honestly that’s the best way to go about it. With the zephyrite fleet rebuilt (assuming that the zephyrites would return to the air), they would need to stock up and, well, Labyrinth is the best place to do it, considering their history with the place. We run into the problem of the aspect crystals being needed to navigate the Labyrinth (which I doubt jump pads could fully cover, but they’re a good start lore wise), but otherwise I don’t see a problem with bringing back Labyrinth as a festival area. It’s honestly an idea that I never thought of, reduces the need for the commander to need to go there because it’s a festival area, not a living story area. My bad on that part.

Well, the OP’s suggestion/thread topic was about bringing the Labyrinthine Cliffs back as a full-fledged permanent map….

Thus, the need for a reason for the story to go there.

The Devs might, one day, bring it back as a Festival; though, I imagine it would have the same technical issues SAB did (that being the code being left behind in all the improvements implemented since). Plus, having to change/create new Achievements because of gliding, or disable gliding there. Probably not an insubstantial amount of work for temporary (though recurring) content.

castlemanic.3198:

None of those required the creation of an entire zone to accomplish, plus they were current events, not Living World Season 3 episodes. Vast difference between the two.

Ah, but the zone already exists, doesn’t it? Yes, it would need some fixing and adjusting, especially near the top, but it’s still there.

Aspect crystals? Have some asura spouting off about how his team has developed this device that can infuse you with temporary energy that functions “almost” like one of the crystals “notresponsibleforinjuriesdeathorexplosivecombustion” and you’re explaining away the movement powers without the crystals.

It would take work, but much less work in some areas than any other such addition. I mean, I’d be just as happy to see an entirely new area that picks up the Zepherite story, but why waste the work that’s already been done?

And let’s be honest, we NEED to pick up that story again. We left things in such a mess for them, and … well… the story needs a few more wins for the good guys. In the Living Story, it seems like every plot ends in destruction and loss. Even our victories come at an awful cost. We’re not heroes, we’re the harbingers of destruction. Getting to reclaim a happy moment, and see something start to grow out of that loss, would be a nice change of pace. I think that’s what people really want the zone back for, it was the last (only?) area added to the game that was generally positive.

Palador.2170:

Ah, but the zone already exists, doesn’t it? Yes, it would need some fixing and adjusting, especially near the top, but it’s still there.

They basically have to fix every area that was out of reach from players due to the fact that players can now glide. That’s a lot of work on it’s own. It’s possible to be done though.

Aspect crystals? Have some asura spouting off about how his team has developed this device that can infuse you with temporary energy that functions “almost” like one of the crystals “notresponsibleforinjuriesdeathorexplosivecombustion” and you’re explaining away the movement powers without the crystals.

I was about to tear this apart but i realised how simple the functions were. “jump high”, “leap far” are the easiest of the two by far. “Turn into an energy ball that moves really fast and can move through things like miniature sandstorms” seems the odd one out, until I realised every elementalist can do it so yeah, I messed up here too. Maybe the specific combination of wind, lightning and sun in crystals that grant powers to users might be impossible, but like two of those are pretty easy (jetpack bundle anyone?) and the third one is probably something that can be reverse… umm… engineered isn’t the right word… help? XD

But yeah, I was moaning about nothing really. An asuran jetpack could cover the first two with an ‘energy speed’ mode to cover the third one.

It would take work, but much less work in some areas than any other such addition. I mean, I’d be just as happy to see an entirely new area that picks up the Zepherite story, but why waste the work that’s already been done?

And let’s be honest, we NEED to pick up that story again.

I’m sure I’ve implied before that I want to see this happen, but just in case, I want to see what’s happened with the zephyrites.

We left things in such a mess for them, and … well… the story needs a few more wins for the good guys.

Technically speaking, we didn’t have anything to do with what happened to them. That was Scarlet’s fault. Essentially all of it.

In the Living Story, it seems like every plot ends in destruction and loss. Even our victories come at an awful cost. We’re not heroes, we’re the harbingers of destruction. Getting to reclaim a happy moment, and see something start to grow out of that loss, would be a nice change of pace. I think that’s what people really want the zone back for, it was the last (only?) area added to the game that was generally positive.

How are we the harbingers of destruction? The elder dragons attacking us have nothing to do with us or the GW1 characters. Scarlet was, well, her own fault. The only thing we’re at fault for is rallying the races against the threat of Mordremoth, which turned out bad because nobody could have estimated how Mordremoth would have acted (on top of what happened to those two named characters). I don’t want to minimize the Mordremoth damage, but we’ve actually done very little harbinging of destruction. We ARE heroes for stopping two elder dragons, though unknowingly we made the other four more dangerous. That’s also kind of our fault (though if Destiny’s Edge was successful early on, it would be their fault too). Depending on what happens in this season of living world, the Lazarus thing might be the GW1 character’s fault.

There’s very little we can be blamed for, and what little we CAN be blamed for is a natural result of fighting god tier enemies and not knowing what they can do. We just need to shrug off the blows that we can and fight the enemies that we face.

And, well, Aurene is definitely something/someone that we can see grow successfully out of our efforts. She just also has the best chance of being our primary defender when she grows up.

TL;DR, Labyrinth, if it will come back, should come back as a festival event only.

Could also just disable gliding in it. WoW frequently disabled flying or at least temporarily blocks it, for good reason.

Yeah there were some collection achievements (a-la the coins in silverwastes/etc.) that required using the aspect movement skills to reach – either those achievements would need to be retired, they would need to be moved to reduce their ease of achieving w/ gliding, gliding would need to be disabled, or just leave ‘em in as-is because at this point it’s behind us (sure I suffered through, but I’m tired of ANet removing achievements).

First, I don’t think all the zephyrites went down.

Second it’s been a year, they rebuilt.

Third and most importatnt; That festival was a lot of fun. I sincerely hope ANET brings it back.

cyn.2157:

Yeah there were some collection achievements (a-la the coins in silverwastes/etc.) that required using the aspect movement skills to reach – either those achievements would need to be retired, they would need to be moved to reduce their ease of achieving w/ gliding, gliding would need to be disabled, or just leave ‘em in as-is because at this point it’s behind us (sure I suffered through, but I’m tired of ANet removing achievements).

Wouldn’t be that different from dry top. We couldn’t glide there originally and all those collector achievements there are still in game and a lot easier with gliding. Not that I wouldn’t want them to tweak it for gliding if they could, but there has been a precedent for this.