Guild Wars 2

So today on the server MAG, I started a big conversation/discussion on GW2 and the MMO holy trinity(tank,healer,DPS) and everyone involved discussed said topic.

I started off talking about the current ‘meta’ for raids and how basically it runs: Chrono tank, PS warr, druids,tempest,condi dps,etc. You know, the roles “needed”. I was talking about how in PuGs or even organized groups, people don’t prefer another class tanking. For example, a warrior or a guardian or even a thief. Does it work? Absolutely, but it is not a so called NORM to have another class tank. Same goes with healing and dps.

People started going back and forth with: “you can’t have good endgame content without the trinity” and countered back with “It’s been done in every mmo ever and GW2 is trying to branch away from that. Endgame is what you make of it”.

Right now I’d like to say that GW2 for PvE has a meta but it’s a very strict meta and I would like to say it is because of not having a trinity. Mostly the timer for raids i feel makes it a dmg sponge race and the only way to do it is to follow this current meta. I feel as if this strict meta has basically controlled what people do for endgame content instead of thinking for themselves and learning how they want to play which is what GW2 intentions were right?I believe people play a class to learn everything about that class instead of following a straight line that will eventually get nerfed in another patch or major update.

Final thoughts: I’d love to see the trinity come back. I feel as if even though it is used in every mmo possible that it still WORKS. (i hate using WoW as an example but it is an efficient one) WoW has made the ability for all classes to have access to all specs, for classes respectively. If that was implemented in GW2 then maybe being a warrior tank would be a norm, and if i didn’t want to tank i could DPS. Same goes with a ranger, i could dps as a ranger or heal as a druid. I can do that now but it is NOT a norm for everyone because of this strict straight line meta. I believe that the trinity actually brings more diversity!

WITH ALL THAT BEING SAID, I would love to read other peoples views on bringing the trinity back/ why it shouldn’t. Maybe not for all content but for at least some endgame content.

EDIT: my computer is being buggy and i might have double posted. I apologize!

Twice Slive.2704:

EDIT: my computer is being buggy and i might have double posted. I apologize!

Did you delete your first post? I replied to you and now your OP is gone. My reply and one other are there. Just curious why you deleted.

1) Should this be in the raids etc forum? Cuz I don’t think it applies anywhere else. You speak of PvE, but open world has no need for trinity.

2) We have one elite spec per profession right now. Expac 2 is on the horizon. Once we have more elites, then more roles should open up. Wait and see?

jheryn.8390:

Twice Slive.2704:

EDIT: my computer is being buggy and i might have double posted. I apologize!

Did you delete your first post? I replied to you and now your OP is gone. My reply and one other are there. Just curious why you deleted.

I was trying to delete the thread because my computer wasn’t verifying if the post actually posted or not! but i saw what you’re reply said if you could Re-post it here that would be fantastic!

Yet another reason why people do not like raids.

While playing a dedicated healer in GW was often fun, it wasn’t always lucrative so many people didn’t play them.

What made it worse is that many groups never got off the ground due to the fact they could never get a healer in the group.

I don’t think it is a good because I believe that many people would be missing out on content because they couldn’t get a healer. I’m afraid people wouldn’t want to play the healer role just as in GW.

There’s been a lot, A LOT, of discussion on the topic. Just putting that out there first.

From my perspective, I found that GW2 doesn’t need Trinity to create decent fights. The problem is, ANet hasn’t been designing with its own system in mind.

As it is, Trinity has always been a lazy/necessary method of design in order to keep fights controlled.

Trinity was awful from the first time it was used. It’s a boring way to think of a fight: each person comes in with one job and only one job & has to do nothing but that. In this game, it’s different because everyone has to take care of some of their own support, all of their own active defense, & mostly everyone has some responsibility for damage.

The reason chrono is preferred for tank isn’t just that it can control the mob(s), it’s also that it brings other utility, too (alacrity, quickness). Warriors are DPS & support. And so on.

The reason a lot of people like to stick to a meta composition is that it’s easier. It’s easier to put out the LFG, it’s easier to find people who can handle a single task, it’s easier to see if people know what they are doing. In static groups, people can (and do) have a lot more variation, because you don’t have to worry about finding people or knowing what they can do.

The biggest problem this game has is that too many of us are used to their being only one way to succeed, so we assume that’s true here, too. There are so, so many posts about the ‘proper’ comp, the ‘optimum’ build, where… that’s simply not true in this game — there are many comps that will work, many builds.

QTFY shows us that there’s a particular build that’s optimum for folks who can play optimally. That doesn’t mean such builds are best-suited for those of us who play sub-optimally.

Rauderi might be right that ANet isn’t doing nearly enough with designing (and redesigning) fights to take advantage of the system. But things are already far more interesting than they’d be under a formal trinity system. And we know this because top players can kill Sabetha with just pistol thieves.

The problem I see is the Anet wanted to remove the trinity for GW2. They did. Since launch they have slowly added a kittenized version back in to the game that is making things more unbalanced. Even for PvE, creating a fight that basically involves dying and respawning isn’t a challenging fight…it’s poor design, and I rarely die in PvE but there are encounters that almost require it.

I honestly feel that this game could be better and adding tanks and primary healers would be a good way to do that (not that they ever will). I get that each class has some utility and heals (so they can claim everyone can do everything) but they aren’t equal and the game is getting further and further away from being balanced.

tl:dr give me my monk back

Trinity is a broken outdated system that no one wants, including you. It’s just that denial and fear consumes you.

Doggie.3184:

Trinity is a broken outdated system that no one wants, including you. It’s just that denial and fear consumes you.

It really isn’t, and there is a reason it has been used in games since MMO’s were a thing.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Trinity was awful from the first time it was used. It’s a boring way to think of a fight: each person comes in with one job and only one job & has to do nothing but that. In this game, it’s different because everyone has to take care of some of their own support, all of their own active defense, & mostly everyone has some responsibility for damage.

The reason chrono is preferred for tank isn’t just that it can control the mob(s), it’s also that it brings other utility, too (alacrity, quickness). Warriors are DPS & support. And so on.

The reason a lot of people like to stick to a meta composition is that it’s easier. It’s easier to put out the LFG, it’s easier to find people who can handle a single task, it’s easier to see if people know what they are doing. In static groups, people can (and do) have a lot more variation, because you don’t have to worry about finding people or knowing what they can do.

The biggest problem this game has is that too many of us are used to their being only one way to succeed, so we assume that’s true here, too. There are so, so many posts about the ‘proper’ comp, the ‘optimum’ build, where… that’s simply not true in this game — there are many comps that will work, many builds.

QTFY shows us that there’s a particular build that’s optimum for folks who can play optimally. That doesn’t mean such builds are best-suited for those of us who play sub-optimally.

Rauderi might be right that ANet isn’t doing nearly enough with designing (and redesigning) fights to take advantage of the system. But things are already far more interesting than they’d be under a formal trinity system. And we know this because top players can kill Sabetha with just pistol thieves.

I agree with you, it took me a while to finally see the problem and the problem is the holy trinity however in older mmorpgs like in eq1 and 2 while the trinity existed many classes had more then one job as well, so you can have more of a defined trinity with versatile jobs.

Yes, the traditional trinity isn’t very exciting. Nor is anets approach to profession designs and roles.

Twice Slive.2704:

Right now I’d like to say that GW2 for PvE has a meta but it’s a very strict meta and I would like to say it is because of not having a trinity. Mostly the timer for raids i feel makes it a dmg sponge race and the only way to do it is to follow this current meta. I feel as if this strict meta has basically controlled what people do for endgame content instead of thinking for themselves and learning how they want to play which is what GW2 intentions were right?I believe people play a class to learn everything about that class instead of following a straight line that will eventually get nerfed in another patch or major update.

I don’t think you understand why the meta composition for raids sprung up. Do you even know why chrono is the goto tank? Honest question. Do you know why warriors and druids are brought into every group? Again, its an honest question. And the answer is not because GW2 lacks a trinity, its because chrono already has a laughably low contribution to DPS if it is doing its alacrity/quickness rotation, so by switching stats to toughness (to secure aggro) and concentration for boon duration, the party doesn’t even notice the lack of DPS from the chrono not being full berserker. Warriors and druids are always taken because their buffs are unrivaled, and huge. They aren’t small time buffs, they make an incredibly significant difference. Having a trinity wouldn’t change that unless classes were homogenized to the point where every “healer” could provide GotL and spirits, where every "DPS build (I guess, not sure what to call warriors honestly) could provide banners and easy 25 stacks of might, where every “tank” could provide high quickness and alacrity uptime.

Is that what you really want? Homogenization of the classes until which class you picked doesn’t make a difference, because they all play the same?

Twice Slive.2704:

…
I’d like to say that GW2 for PvE has a meta but it’s a very strict meta
…

You are mistaken. There is nothing strict about the meta in gw2. Even in raids.

Twice Slive.2704:

Right now I’d like to say that GW2 for PvE has a meta but it’s a very strict meta and I would like to say it is because of not having a trinity. Mostly the timer for raids i feel makes it a dmg sponge race and the only way to do it is to follow this current meta. I feel as if this strict meta has basically controlled what people do for endgame content instead of thinking for themselves and learning how they want to play which is what GW2 intentions were right?I believe people play a class to learn everything about that class instead of following a straight line that will eventually get nerfed in another patch or major update.

You’re wrong on a few points.

First, and foremost, the way players play is more often than not dictated by what’s most efficient. That’s what meta is. It’s not there because it is required. It isn’t, even in raids. It’s there because it’s efficient and it means you get most reward with least risk/effort involved. Obviously, there will always be those who prefer to play off-meta because something is more fun for them. But the more players get involved in a specific activity, the higher the chance someone will be more interested in the reward rather than every individual participant’s idea of fun. And the more likely it becomes for meta to be sought for that reason.

You can observe this in many different aspects of the game. Many people prefer to speed-run dungeons and require specific knowledge and builds for that. There are no timers in dungeons. Nor there are timers in fractals, yet meta exists there as well. It’s a natural product of any game.

Now, the “trinity” is just a part of this, a result of the optimization process. You can’t really have a game with no trinity, and GW2 is not an exception. We do have tanks, we do have supports and we do have damage dealers. The meta is only rigid because some professions are just too good of a match for specific roles. Chrono being the prime example. It’s not that other professions can’t tank. It’s that the overall result would be worse, because of how good of a support the Chrono is while tanking.

I agree with the OP. GW1 had a better class and skill system. They should have kept that for GW2 instead of trying to be “innovative”, which only resulted in the meta becoming too strict with very little flexibility for the professions. It’s quite boring in that regard compared to GW1.

Oh yes we definetly need the Holy Trinity ….. but in the way Anet tried to introduce it prelease (and horribly failed to actually implement) ….. Meaning the Trinity between Damage, Support and Control.

If I could skill my class in a convinient way to burn through those break bars then maybe they will also fall sometimes before they are nerfed into oblivion……

I think the biggest design flaw of raid content, was an aggro mechanic of highest toughness. That makes people feel necessary to have a tank, then, with Vale Guardian at first, the random pulsing damage within 1500 range. THEN the timer, forcing max DPS.

The raid content was sadly designed with some sort of trinity in mind, which is sad, content can be made of much higher quality than what was done =/

Remove the need for those niche roles and design content based on mechanics.

Honestly, the most engaging part of the entire raid content for me is Siege the Stronghold. Endless enemies, splitting up.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Twice Slive.2704:

…
I’d like to say that GW2 for PvE has a meta but it’s a very strict meta
…

You are mistaken. There is nothing strict about the meta in gw2. Even in raids.

That really depends on the people you encounter. Some people need absolute structure in their squads to be confident of victory.

Solution to that is to just… Hang around people who aren’t like that.

Why “bring back” the trinity? Why not try to stay original and don’t?

Flatley.1620:

Why “bring back” the trinity? Why not try to stay original and don’t?

The problem is they have brought it back already. We are just in limbo in the half ass trinity they have given us. They wanted a game that didn’t have the trinity, then added content/skill/balance issues that essentially give us a really bad version of it.

kitten i totally forgot about this post. I liked all of your responses whether you agreed with me or not.

What kind of trinity do you mean?
Do you want a WOW style trinity where a dedicated healer class is needed and only the dedicated healer class can res people, in which case thats the worst possible outcome this game could ever have.
The last thing any MMO needs is dedicated roles where only a subset of the player base can perform a particular task, and to complete any content needs a combination of the defined roles.
I played WOW for years, and the worst part was constantly begging for healers before any raid or dungeon could even be attempted.

I would quit playing if GW2 had a trinity.

druids = healer
zerker casters (mesmer/ele) = dps
Cleric warrior/guard = tank

theres the trinity. you just have to spec it.

zionophir.6845:

druids = healer
zerker casters (mesmer/ele) = dps
Cleric warrior/guard = tank

theres the trinity. you just have to spec it.

for pve zerker guard with hammer can tank :| and u have the aditions of some dps.