The longstanding issue that irks both developers and players alike is that conditions are capped because servers have to track every single individual stack which takes up bandwidth and makes tracking the gargantuan numbers that could result from events such as world-boss zergs take unmanageable tolls on the servers.
I’m not sure how the limit functions exactly, but whether it blocks new stacks or cancels out old ones, it is severely dampening the damage-output of conditions in PvE.
The technological obstacle is fairly impassable, so I had a thought: What about introducing a way to “use” and reset the stacks, so removing the cap was unnecessary?
Condition Criticals (or Condi-Crits for short):
When a patient’s condition worsens to a potentially fatal point, staff will sometimes (or alway? I’m not in med) their condition is going critical.
Have a damage event occur whenever a condition reaches its cap.
This damage event would remove the condition, and deal condition-damage equal to what those stacks would have dealt.
* Suppose in the same time-frame, I apply 14 bleed stacks, and my friend applies 11 bleed stacks-snip-
Condition damage, according to supposedly more experienced players, is based on the attacker with the highest condition damage.
I think this could be fixed by using an averaging formula that results in a more balanced value, but alas, this is a balance issue for ArenaNet.
A different style for each one – Each type of condition-critical may have to be slightly different to accommodate the different facets of the condition
Essentially, each Condi-crit functions to reduce the number of stacks by front-loading the damage to reduce server load.
No, this isn’t ideal – One appeal is the damage-over-time aesthetic. It’d be preferable if we could simply each have our stacks and watch the damage tick away like normal, but if that were possible, I wouldn’t be making this suggestion.
The bright side is that Condition Criticals would only affect high-health enemies; elites, champions, and world bosses. Gameplay against normal and even most Veteran-level enemies would be largely unaffected outside of people abusing special consumables and other niche cases.
Personally, I think there would be enjoyment in stacking 25 bleed and watching an enemy “pop” from damage comparable to Warrior’s Hundred Blades.
Brainstorming icons to illustrate Condi-Crits:
Bleed-Crit:
Critical-4th-degree-BURN or… Burn-Crit:
Torment-Crit:
Poison-Crit:
New After-thoughts:
Why is the damage instant?
Having a new condition stack applied would lead to the same problem. Cap-limit. And if the condition has a short enough duration to not be overwhelmed by a 100-man zerg at a world-boss, then we may as well make it instant and save the visual space
Won’t this be overpowered in PvP?
1. That’s a balance issue, and not the focus of this idea.
2. If Arena Net can’t balance conditions in PvP sooner than implementing this idea, then they can just disable Condi-Crits when attacking other players. Easy as 1-2-3.
Further thoughts on how this will work for duration-based conditions like Poison / Burning?
a) Only half stacks will go critical
b) Higher duration stacks take priority making short stacks go critical
Won’t this be overpowered in PvP?
…
Won’t this be overpowered in PvP?
…
Good Sir! Will this concept not be overwhelming in damage values in the valiant modes of Player Versus Player?!
… Sorry. I forgot, people like to skim. Reading’s for noobs and casuals.
If balancing is too unrealistic – Make Condi-Crits only affect PvE enemies. Simple.
- That includes the hostile NPCs in WvW
- Zergs, duels, and anything PvP-related is left alone
(edited by DreamOfACure.4382)
Not a bad idea, but as you said, it’s not ideal. And if they’re going to make major changes to fix it, they should be aiming for something a little closer to ideal then this I feel.
Still, I think the general idea is a good direction to go in. Some sort of condition overflow, wherein passed the cap the damage is applied immediately in some way or another.
This would of course be a PVE only feature.
for every 25 stacks of bleeding, a stack of “hemorrhaging” is applied.
regular bleed stack resets for new stack.
hemorrhaging
duration 5 seconds
damage 5000/second
maximum stack 25
something like that??
instead of increasing the cap, perhaps add a new “condition”
for every 25 stacks of bleeding, a stack of “hemorrhaging” is applied.
regular bleed stack resets for new stack.hemorrhaging
duration 5 seconds
damage 5000/second
maximum stack 25something like that??
instead of increasing the cap, perhaps add a new “condition”
No, I think he means the stack kind of “explodes”. If the total damage over time the 25 stacks of bleeding would have caused was 20k damage, then the 20k damage is done immediately and the stacks are removed, clearing the way for new bleeds to be applied.
The more I think of it, the more I like it to be honest. Would take some ironing out though. Confusion, as mentioned, wouldn’t work. Similarly Torment is going to have a problem, unless the damage calculation just assumes the average. And I think duration stacking conditions would need a different solution.
Perhaps, when a burn reaches 15 seconds, additional burns apply their full damage immediately? or new sources beyond the cap apply their damage immediately? I think they might have some technical difficulty with that though…
Regardless, I don’t think the stack “criting” works for duration conditions because you really WANT them to stay on long. Wouldn’t want someone applying a 2 second burn/poison and causing the rest of the stack to crit and disappear.
Edit: player used confusion just plain needs to be reworked in PVE anyways. Make 50% of what ever Arena Net expects it to do be just normal condition damage that ticks over time, and the other 50% be triggered on attack, or something.
(edited by Arewn.2368)
Great idea. Hopefully Anet is paying attention.
Maybe use something like Ropechef’s suggestion for confusion?
Like, @ 25 stacks of Confusion they clear and put a single stack of Panic. Which has a higher damage modifier, or even an attack debuff (fits with the theme).
the only problem i see is of it is not done carefully, conditions will exceed over powered in a single switch. You cant really separate this type of “condi stack” between the game modes it just would be stupidly complicated and i doubt it would ever really work correctly.
that being said. Having some of the suggested ideas although would work in theory. it would cause some serious over powered condi bombs in PvP and WvW.
in a game mode that has half of the people in them complaining that conditions are already over powered.
(shrug)
for every 25 stacks of bleeding, a stack of “hemorrhaging” is applied.
…
duration 5 seconds
The respective stacks of different players must be respected, since they likely have different levels of condition damage on their gear. Otherwise, we have artificial damage increases, and everyone starts building to stack bleeds.
And if we had individual stacks, we’d just smash our heads into the cap-limit problem again.
So, ideally for both the intended purpose AND balance, an instant-damage condi-crit is best.
No, I think he means the stack kind of “explodes”… clearing the way for new bleeds to be applied.
That sums it up nicely. No new stack complications. Quick and simple, like a cut to a human’s femoral artery – Arguably equal to 30 bleed stacks.
Torment is going to have a problem, unless the damage calculation just assumes the average. And I think duration stacking conditions would need a different solution.
I would say letting Torment simply use non-moving values would be fine since:
1) World Bosses, unfortunately, don’t “move” anyway
2) I don’t see Torment hit 25 stacks very often. It’s scarce in current gameplay. So, from a practical perspective, Torment will lose nothing from only calculating as if the enemy were stationary.
Regardless, I don’t think the stack “criting” works for duration conditions because you really WANT them to stay on long. Wouldn’t want someone applying a 2 second burn/poison and causing the rest of the stack to crit and disappear.
This is already addressed.
Each type of condition-critical may have to be slightly different to accommodate the different facets of the condition
- Poison, which also operates as an anti-heal, may only have its first 8 stacks “go critical” to maintain its consistency as an anti-heal. (Poison and Burning are capped at 9 stacks/sources).
Another idea would be to only have half stacks expunged by a condi-crit, so the duration-functionality is maintained.
Maybe use something like Ropechef’s suggestion for confusion?
Like, @ 25 stacks of Confusion they clear and put a single stack of Panic.
Like I said with the Hemmorrhaging idea, that would not respect the different condition damage values of the contributors of the condition. Since the Perplexity Rune nerf, it’s nigh-impossible to solo-stack 25 Confusion on anything anyway.
the only problem i see is of it is not done carefully, conditions will exceed over powered
…
it would cause some serious over powered condi bombs in PvP and WvW.
That’s a balance issue. This is a solution for technology limitation.
Apples and Oranges. Plus, if ArenaNet won’t balance conditions there, they can always disable Condi-crits against other players.
(edited by DreamOfACure.4382)
Conditions are already too strong in WvW. No need to make it directly stronger by any means. How the damage is calculated does need to change though.
Conditions are already too strong in WvW. No need to make it directly stronger by any means. How the damage is calculated does need to change though.
This suggestion is unlikely to make conditions stronger in WvW PvP interactions, and even if it did, it wouldn’t be difficult to disable in WvW and sPvP.
See: “After Thoughts” in the OP
(edited by DreamOfACure.4382)
Conditions are already too strong in WvW. No need to make it directly stronger by any means. How the damage is calculated does need to change though.
This suggestion does not make conditions stronger in WvW PvP interactions.
See: After Thoughts number 3 in the OP
You’re underestimating food/crystal buffs in WvW. I can maintain over 20 stacks of bleed from my necro without even trying, even if it gets cleansed, since condition application is mainly from an autoattack (something that has to change in PvP, no conditions should be applied from autoattack without sigil and traits).
Conditions are already too strong in WvW. No need to make it directly stronger by any means. How the damage is calculated does need to change though.
This suggestion does not make conditions stronger in WvW PvP interactions.
See: After Thoughts number 3 in the OP
Of course they do. WvW isnt PvP, where 25 stacks are hard to come by.
I can maintain over 20 stacks of bleed from my necro without even trying, even if it gets cleansed
Of course they do. WvW isnt PvP, where 25 stacks are hard to come by.
I’ve edited my response. Now maybe you BOTH could read the full post and see that your concern is FULLY accounted for instead of making hasty judgements?
Additionally – Whether or not you find conditions strong in WvW is irrelevant. That’s a balance issue. Fixing the PvE issue has nothing to do with it. In fact – I’m going to add that to the OP after thoughts.
I can maintain over 20 stacks of bleed from my necro without even trying, even if it gets cleansed
Of course they do. WvW isnt PvP, where 25 stacks are hard to come by.
I’ve edited my response. Now maybe you BOTH could read the full post and see that your concern is FULLY accounted for instead of making hasty judgements?
Additionally – Whether or not you find conditions strong in WvW is irrelevant. That’s a balance issue. Fixing the PvE issue has nothing to do with it. In fact – I’m going to add that to the OP after thoughts.
Well, you still havent mentioned wvw a single time in your op.
Well, you still havent mentioned wvw a single time in your op.
I… do not feel equipped to… interpret… how it is I am reading… what I am reading. So, I am… just going to copy-and-paste the section you missed:
2. If Arena Net can’t balance conditions in PvP sooner than implementing this idea, then they can just disable Condi-Crits when attacking other players. Easy as 1-2-3.
I am sorry that if this does not adequately clarify your issue.
EDIT: I THINK… the problem might be… you think WvW is somehow not a part of PvP? Last I checked… PvP included BOTH sPvP and WvW.
(edited by DreamOfACure.4382)
If you can’t see how this would make condi even more cheesy than they already are in WvW (and continue to say how this won’t affect PvP) then you have no room to make such stupid suggestions.
Yes, conditions are too weak in PvE. This game isn’t balanced for PvE. The balancing is around sPvP where condi is at a good place. Due to food buffs, they are overpowered as hell in WvW. You simply can’t make conditions stronger
If you can’t see how this would make condi even more cheesy than they already are in WvW (and continue to say how this won’t affect PvP) then you have no room to make such stupid suggestions.
Yes, conditions are too weak in PvE. This game isn’t balanced for PvE. The balancing is around sPvP where condi is at a good place. Due to food buffs, they are overpowered as hell in WvW. You simply can’t make conditions stronger
^^
I remember something exactly like this being suggested 2 or 3 months after release. I think the problem is that adding calculations to apply damage and remove the stack and all that would be just as taxing as keeping track of the stacks in the first place.
Also there are balancing concerns. The way the game calculates condition damage is by using the highest value. If player A has 500 condition damage and player B has 3000, then the game will use player B’s value for all stacks regardless of who applied them. Essentially player A benefits from player B’s damage stat. If you suddenly added “hemorrhaging” to the game, all it would take is one person in a zerg with 3000+ condition damage to apply their stack. The rest of the zerg can spam stacks, refreshing “hemorrhage” and still gaining the max damage of it, even though the “true” condition person isn’t the one refreshing the stack.
Since the ONLY real issue in PvE for conditions is Champs / World Bosses in Zerg situations, isn’t it possible that some variation of this idea is ONLY applied when certain other BOON/CONDITION is present (Call it CRITICAL CONDITIONS for lack of a better term). Thus selected Champs and World Bosses could have this additional BOON/CONDITION present (either at certain times or whenever other condition stacks are maxed) while all other “targets” in both PvP, WvW and PvE would be immune to this additional condition damage effect.
On the other side of this is the fact that while this may potentially “solve” the reduced effect of conditions from multiple attackers on a single target, it appears to me it will still require some significant additional computing horsepower to function (determining who’s CD CRIT to apply and calculating and then displaying the value all take server side resources). The fact that (per above) it may be not applicable to the majority of targets in a zone may actually make the additional server resources doable.
TLDR: Only apply something similar to this idea to selected Champ / World Boss targets via some method of, “don’t bother to calculate this extra damage unless….”, coding. That would reduce server resource requirements, discount any OP concerns in other game modes and would allow for selective application of the more powerful CD scenario.
The way the game calculates condition damage is by using the highest value. If player A has 500 condition damage and player B has 3000, then the game will use player B’s value for all stacks regardless of who applied them.
I don’t believe it works this way. I think it actually keeps track of individual numbers per stack. It will even do this if it’s a single stack as it is in burning and poison, in this case it will alter the damage value per tick.
The way the game calculates condition damage is by using the highest value. If player A has 500 condition damage and player B has 3000, then the game will use player B’s value for all stacks regardless of who applied them.
I don’t believe it works this way. I think it actually keeps track of individual numbers per stack. It will even do this if it’s a single stack as it is in burning and poison, in this case it will alter the damage value per tick.
Unless they changed it in the last 8 months, then yes it does work exactly as I described. You can easily test it by having two people in pvp apply bleed to a 3rd person. One person has more condi damage than the other. The bleed always ticks for the same number on the target. They never get a stack ticking for 12 and another stack ticking for 50. The person with the higher condi damage will dictate the damage value for all bleed ticks, regardless of source.
I like the general idea of this, but as much as I am rooting for conditions to become more viable in PvE, what you have done here is essentially given a HUGE buff to the damage output of zergs. Damage over time is simply converted to burst damage.
While it is kind of crappy to feel like your conditions don’t really “count” in a large group, the stack cap is not just there for technical reasons. On an individual scale, I know it seems like condi builds don’t do as much damage as berserkers — but if you got a whole bunch of players together who could then infinitely pile on DoTs and convert them to instant burst damage, it would be a real mess. Zergs would chew through champs and world bosses even more effortlessly than they do now.
Removing the condi cap is not going to affect solo play or smaller groups, which is where I feel conditions need the help.
I like the general idea of this, but as much as I am rooting for conditions to become more viable in PvE, what you have done here is essentially given a HUGE buff to the damage output of zergs. Damage over time is simply converted to burst damage.
While it is kind of crappy to feel like your conditions don’t really “count” in a large group, the stack cap is not just there for technical reasons. On an individual scale, I know it seems like condi builds don’t do as much damage as berserkers — but if you got a whole bunch of players together who could then infinitely pile on DoTs and convert them to instant burst damage, it would be a real mess. Zergs would chew through champs and world bosses even more effortlessly than they do now.
Removing the condi cap is not going to affect solo play or smaller groups, which is where I feel conditions need the help.
High health targets don’t cleanse conditions, and have such a large amount of health that they survive to see the full duration of conditions applied to them anyways. So whether the damage is done upfront or ticks over the course of 10 seconds won’t really present a significant difference. Zergs aren’t going to chew through champs/world bosses significantly faster just because condi builds are viable for use now, it’s not like the stacks resetting are also resetting your cool-downs to place those conditions.
Furthermore, your example of multiple people being able to apply dots and as such do too much damage is completely flawed. You can’t infinitely apply dots, each player can apply a finite number of conditions that is dependent on their build, and so long as those individual build’s damage capacity is within the same range as direct damage builds damage capacity, then it doesn’t matter how many people are applying them because their damage capacity is the same. Every one being allowed to apply their conditions wouldn’t make condition builds “over powered” or “do too much damage in groups”, it would just make it fair and on equal footing to direct damage builds.
Solo play won’t be changed, but solo play doesn’t need changing. Condi builds are already fine in a completely solo situation.
Small group play will be significantly helped by such a change, because it means you’re damage is no longer wasted as soon as you hit the stack cap (which is the whole problem). In fact, it potentially creates a fun “mini game” wherein a small group can aim to “crit” the stack in order to burst the target.
The only problem I see is that condition builds, builds which are supposed to be about attrition, would then have the capacity to also do great burst. Which is a bit unfair as a “best of both worlds” situation.
Removing the condi cap is not going to affect solo play or smaller groups, which is where I feel conditions need the help.
Have you PLAYED with or run CD builds in these situations? CD is in fact a bit OP in player vs player situations and drops open world PvE enemies just fine….CD does NOT need help in those areas. Unless you can point out a specific situation you encountered to support your claim, I think you are very mistaken.
The ONLY place CD falls short is when multiple CD appliers attack the same target. ALL of their effectiveness is diluted and it gets worse and worse with each CD player added to the attack.
This idea would have be CAREFULLY tested and then implemented in a manner to remove the possibility of it becoming OP or exploitable.
(edited by Brother Grimm.5176)
I like the general idea of this, but as much as I am rooting for conditions to become more viable in PvE, what you have done here is essentially given a HUGE buff to the damage output of zergs. Damage over time is simply converted to burst damage.
While it is kind of crappy to feel like your conditions don’t really “count” in a large group, the stack cap is not just there for technical reasons. On an individual scale, I know it seems like condi builds don’t do as much damage as berserkers — but if you got a whole bunch of players together who could then infinitely pile on DoTs and convert them to instant burst damage, it would be a real mess. Zergs would chew through champs and world bosses even more effortlessly than they do now.
Removing the condi cap is not going to affect solo play or smaller groups, which is where I feel conditions need the help.
Condi builds don’t do as much damage as zerkers do, no matter the build. Put 100 zerkers on a boss, it’s going to melt anyway; substitute 20 of those zerkers for condi builds (assuming the condi builds can do their full damage, not the pitiful damage they do now in groups), it’s still going to be less damage overall. Point being, there is no reason for a zerker to do full damage and for a condi build to do 100-300 DPS on a world boss. No reason at all.
That said, I don’t know if the OP’s suggestion is the answer to this issue (and it sure as hell could not affect WvW, but I’m not sure if WvW and PvE balance can be separated, as they’re treated as part of the same thing, unlike sPvP), but saying entire builds should never be made viable in PvE just so bosses don’t go down faster is pretty moronic.
The way the game calculates condition damage is by using the highest value. If player A has 500 condition damage and player B has 3000, then the game will use player B’s value for all stacks regardless of who applied them.
I feel that this could be easily resolved with an averaging formula that takes into account the amount of players attacking the target.
That current method is probably the compromise they chose for stacking back in beta, so it naturally has to be adjusted to a lower value.
And at the risk of sounding like a broken record:
No, it isn’t ideal – But it’s better than the present situation.
Since the ONLY real issue in PvE for conditions is Champs / World Bosses in Zerg situations -snip-
Yes.
Basically, all the complaints in regards to balance is irrelevant. ArenaNet can make it unique to the especially high HP PvE bosses. If it’s too dramatic for other content, they can isolate it to where the dampening of condition damage is most severe.
what you have done here is essentially given a HUGE buff to the damage output of zergs.
That’s the desired effect, so that’s not a problem.
I’m not sure if WvW and PvE balance can be separated, as they’re treated as part of the same thing, unlike sPvP
Would it be so difficult to simply distinguish the buff between players and NPCs?
Example:
Is the target a player?
If Yes -> Disable Critical Conditions
It is now very clear to me that people here are more concerned about PvP balance than the fact that condition-damage is severely underpowered in PvE group events.
Bothering PvP is not the goal here, so let’s just move away from that by saying this will only apply to PvE such as dungeons, champions, world bosses, etc..
It is now very clear to me that people here are more concerned about PvP balance than the fact that condition-damage is severely underpowered in PvE group events.
I hate to break it to you but if it comes down to keeping PvP in balance and making your CD Necro awesome in the World Boss Train, PvP balance is gonna take priority……PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with what “people here” are “concerned” about.
I’m not sure if WvW and PvE balance can be separated, as they’re treated as part of the same thing, unlike sPvP
Would it be so difficult to simply distinguish the buff between players and NPCs?
Example:
Is the target a player?
If Yes -> Disable Critical ConditionsIt is now very clear to me that people here are more concerned about PvP balance than the fact that condition-damage is severely underpowered in PvE group events.
Bothering PvP is not the goal here, so let’s just move away from that by saying this will only apply to PvE such as dungeons, champions, world bosses, etc..
The reason people are voicing concerns about WvW is because ANet balances WvW and PvE together. They don’t separate them, and they’ve stated in the past that they won’t, unless their stance has changed on that. So any mechanics introduced in PvE would likely be in WvW too – if it’s not possible, or they’re not willing, to separate such a change between areas of the game, then this suggestion is not viable, because roaming/small group conditions would become overpowered.
sPvP is a non-issue, because they do and have balanced it separately from PvE/WvW, but WvW is seen as an extension of PvE, not completely separate from it, even if us players view them as exclusive to each other.
I’m all for conditions becoming viable in PvE; my necro was a condi build for the first 6 months I was playing, but I eventually re-rolled to a power build, because condis are not good in zerg v zerg WvW and in group PvE. They should be viable just as power is, but I’m not sure how to make that work without making them overpowered in WvW roaming, unless the changes can be separated for once.
I hate to break it to you but if it comes down to keeping PvP in balance and making your CD Necro awesome in the World Boss Train, PvP balance is gonna take priority……PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with what “people here” are “concerned” about.
I hate to break it to you this way but: You ARE being overly concerned with PvP balance. You’re straight up not comprehending my suggestion to that issue.
Let me rephrase it: Have Condi-Crits only apply to NPCs/PvE-entites
That would affect things like Tequatl, Shatterer, Castle Lords, etc., but how would that affect PvP interactions, even in WvW? Answer: It won’t. PERIOD.
Bothering PvP is not the goal here, so let’s just move away from that by saying this will only apply to PvE such as dungeons, champions, world bosses, etc..
The reason people are voicing concerns about WvW is because ANet balances WvW and PvE together.
My suggestion does not need ANet to differentiate between WvW and PvE. It’s really disappointing to see people on these forums so fixated on the problem when I’ve already provided a completely acceptable solution.
Have Condi-Crits will only affect NPCs (Guards or Castle Lords in WvW for example or World Bosses like Tequatl).
p. /Bellows out to the Eternal Alchemy – IS THAT INCOMPREHENSIBLE?! Brain Cramp Intensifies
Excuse me. I need to go punch something inanimate before I say/do something counterproductive to promoting the suggestion.
EDIT: http://i.imgur.com/m8QgN.jpg – I have found a happy place.
(edited by DreamOfACure.4382)
The problem isn’t specifically condition DAMAGE. As many people have noted, outside of PvE, Condition Damage is kitten near the meta for many classes. It’s actually AMAZING damage. The raw numbers AREN’T the problem.
The problem is server load in large scale groups, where the cap is hit very, very quickly and makes having more than 1 or 2 condition damage players near worthless.
What I would propose:
1) Taking conditions off ALL “1” skills. Your auto attack should not apply a condition. That’s the biggest part of the problem why the condition caps hit so quickly.
2) Rework traits so that they no longer apply conditions on auto attack, and instead add condition effects to specific skills.
3) Increase the damage per tick while at the same time reducing the maximum number of stacks one player can have at any given time… say a maximum of 5 (this would also allow multiple players to have their own poison, burning, etc).
4) Conditions are no longer effected by increases in stats “in real time”. The damage per tick is calculated once (when it is applied), and does not change until a condition is applied again.
Boom. You’ve reduced server load, and if the numbers are tweaked correctly you won’t destroy condition damage either.
What I would propose:
1) Taking conditions off ALL “1” skills. Your auto attack should not apply a condition. That’s the biggest part of the problem why the condition caps hit so quickly.
2) Rework traits so that they no longer apply conditions on auto attack, and instead add condition effects to specific skills.
3) Increase the damage per tick while at the same time reducing the maximum number of stacks one player can have at any given time… say a maximum of 5 (this would also allow multiple players to have their own poison, burning, etc).
4) Conditions are no longer effected by increases in stats “in real time”. The damage per tick is calculated once (when it is applied), and does not change until a condition is applied again.
1, 2, 3 That would require a massive undertaking of rebalancing weapon skills – Including but not limited to adjusting how much condition removal people had.
4 – The problem with this is the UI display of damage currently works because it only needs to worry about current condition damage.
Design simplicity needs to be considered, because developers have a workflow to manage. You suggestions would require an overhaul of existing mechanics – An extraordinary amount of time would be required to develop, test, and implement them, at great risk of undermining existing balancing and/or being overshadowed by new ideas without much net gain.
I feel my idea is more feasible (in being tested and implemented quickly) since it only adds on top of what exists, and does not change the current inner workings of the game.
Thank you for the contribution though. Nice to see other ideas.
My idea would be to remove conditions from all passive sources. Such as remove them from weapon skills and minor traits. Specific weapons keep their conditions, such as necro scepter. Those are deemed “condition weapons” and are only used specifically for condition builds. Also add conditions to only major traits so that it becomes a conscious effort to build for conditions. Then you make conditions into a personal application. There would be a 25 stack cap, but only for you. Each person could apply 25 stacks to a target. For example two necromancers can put 25 stacks bleed each on a boss, for a total of 50 stacks. Each person is responsible for their own stacks.
Essentially you remove passive conditions and make them only available if you specifically build for them. That way a zerker war won’t accidentally apply bleeds on crit when he has no intention to be a condi build.
I hate to break it to you but if it comes down to keeping PvP in balance and making your CD Necro awesome in the World Boss Train, PvP balance is gonna take priority……PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with what “people here” are “concerned” about.
I hate to break it to you this way but: You ARE being overly concerned with PvP balance. You’re straight up not comprehending my suggestion to that issue.
I comprehend just fine and in fact I think I STARTED the suggestion that they differentiate the mechanic for specific targets in PvE and WvW (did you even read my previous posts?).
My comment was that you CAN NOT disregard PvP concerns just because you say you want to not talk about them. I get that you are proposing a change that would not include PvP, but my comment was a general statement about how ANET would prioritize balance in PvP vs making Condition Damage viable against single targets in PvE. I was NOT saying the proposed changes were not worth considering, just how Anet would approach any conflicts they found between PvP and PvE in general. PvP balance would win any possible conflict of interest is all I was stating.
While all the above proposals have some interesting aspects, Anet is NOT going to totally revamp the weapon system to fix a single aspect of the game for Condition Damage builds. You guys vastly overestimate the severity of this issue to the general payer base if you think those proposals are viable (in terms of resources to implement,, not from a technical game-play perspective).
(edited by Brother Grimm.5176)
My idea would be to remove conditions from all passive sources.
…
Essentially you remove passive conditions and make them only available if you specifically build for them. That way a zerker war won’t accidentally apply bleeds on crit when he has no intention to be a condi build.
That sounds nice, but if the devs didn’t want conditions being mixed with direct damage, I would think they would have done so from the beginning.
Plus, there are many condi-builds that can reach 25 bleed on their own, making this sort of change not solve the cap problem.
See, the problem is that I don’t think it CAN be fixed without a complete overhaul. The problem isn’t the damage, the problem is that with the current system in place, there are too many checks with too many stacks for the server to be able to handle it in large scale open world PvE. Everywhere else, condition damage is perfectly fine if not a bit overpowered.
Your solution really doesn’t solve that problem, it merely pushes the problem onto something else, a condition “crit”, and you’re in fact ADDING to the problem (now it has to check which conditions will “crit” and drop the stack.
It doesn’t change the fact that any more than 1 or 2 condition damage users are near entirely worthless. Your solution is a band aid on a severed limb.
What needs to happen for condition damage to have a place in PvE is reduce the number of stacks any given player can apply as well as how many times those conditions are checked. There is no easy or simple solution. It needs to be completely ripped out and rebuilt from scratch.
OR
You can accept that every game mode will have its own meta, and that condition damage simply won’t be meta for open world PvE content. Personally, I suspect that’s what Arena.net is going to decide (if they haven’t already).
(edited by chemiclord.3978)
See, the problem is that I don’t think it CAN be fixed without a complete overhaul.
That line of thinking rarely flies in developer circles.
Iteration is a big part of design, not just in video games, but majority of industries. Your suggestion disregards the existing work and views it as fundamentally broken, but I would bet on Arena Net feeling it’s more than salvageable.
That’s why I make this suggestion. It takes into account common design principles.
Also – If the stack is cleared, the server load is drastically reduced. That’s not a band-aid solution, it can be game-changing. There’s nothing wrong with creating a new mechanic if it reduces the complications of the mechanics before it.
(edited by DreamOfACure.4382)
That line of thinking rarely flies in developer circles.
Iteration is a big part of design, not just in video games, but majority of industries. Your suggestion disregards the existing work and views it as fundamentally broken, but I would bet on Arena Net feeling it’s more than salvageable.
That’s why I make this suggestion. It takes into account common design principles.
Also – If the stack is cleared, the server load is drastically reduced. That’s not a band-aid solution, it can be game-changing. There’s nothing wrong with creating a new mechanic if it reduces the complications of the mechanics before it.
Oh, I am well aware of what does and doesn’t fly in developer circles, thank you very much.
That doesn’t change the fact that condition damage, at least in this particular instance, is irreparably broken. For open world PvE, it cannot work, and no amount of tweaking is going to make it work.
Your “condition crit” doesn’t solve the problem. The point of condition damage is that it occurs over time, having a “crit” that clears the stack still gimps condition damage. Not as MUCH, but it still won’t make having more than 2 condition builds viable in any given group. Congratulations, you have fixed NOTHING.
I’m not even entirely convinced it would lower the server burden significantly, either. The fewer checks from dropping bleeds will be countered by MORE checks on burning and poison (instead of just being overwritten, now the server has to calculate a crit for every time those single stack conditions are applied).
The real solution that would actually solve the problem is both ridiculously simple yet ridiculously difficult. Let me lay it out for you like this. These are all the ways that you can apply the various stacking intensity conditions that cause damage (These numbers do not include underwater and downed states):
Bleeding: 68 skills (8 of which are tied to the “1” skill), and 11 traits (9 of which allow for bleeds on the “1” skill). There is also 1 rune and two sigils that can apply bleeding (1 of which also allows for bleeds on the “1” skill).
Confusion: 14 skills (none tied to the “1” skill), and 6 traits. There is also 1 rune (that is applied upon being struck).
Torment: 5 skills (none tied to the “1” skill), and 1 trait. 2 runes apply torment (1 upon using a healing skill, the other upon using an elite skill).
There are too many skills that cause bleeding and cause bleeding readily for the server to manage them in large groups… which is kinda a big problem because (as you can see) bleeding is where the bulk of condition damage comes from. To actually fix the problem would require reducing the number of bleeds, both the skills that cause them and the traits and sigil that allow them to be applied so easily.
If you could do that, then you have the server space to either increase poison and burning caps, or a system that allows each player to have their own individual conditions.
But that solution is not tenable (as you’ve noted). It would take far too much work for what is largely an isolated problem. I can nigh guarantee you that’s why Arena.net has said nothing about it in the last year or so; because they can see it too. Condition damage can’t be fixed for open world PvE without completely scrapping it, and they’ve given up trying.
(edited by chemiclord.3978)
This is a great idea. I hope Anet finally addresses this long standing issue. I can’t take any balance patch serious, as long as one of the main game mechanics is so utterly broken, and the classes are balanced around the idea that it is working just fine.
Good post but here’s the thing sugar. We’ve suggested things to them for years now they aren’t improving the game.
Seriously, I wouldn’t hold my breath.
We suggested converting higher stacked conditions into a second tier to continue only with the application of the tier 1 which would do more damage.
We suggested that they improve the crits of these conditions for those who have the proper traits (grandmaster.)
We suggested they take conditions out of basic attacks entirely unless someone is actually traited in the line for Condition damage all the way to grandmaster (because typically those builds need it the most) and it would remove all these bursters adding damage this way to messup the stacks in open world.
We suggested alot over the past two years, not seeing an improvement, they’d rather add a couple of healing skills a year apparently.
OP, as a PvE only change, I really like this idea. I think it has a lot of merit.
I’m not sure I like the idea of essentially converting conditions into “delayed direct damage,” but converting full stacks of a condition into a different condition (like Bleeding into Hemorrhaging, like someone suggested) would be a pretty elegant solution.
In regards to PvE and WvW balance being the same: ArenaNet already has several items that work differently in PvE and WvW, or don’t work at all in WvW, like the Revive Orb. It wouldn’t be out of the question, I don’t think, for these “second tier” conditions like a hypothetical Hemorrhage condition to be PvE-only, or only work on NPC enemies. That’d completely sidestep any chance that it would affect WvW balance.
OP, as a PvE only change, I really like this idea. I think it has a lot of merit.
It honestly wouldn’t be much of an issue in any other game mode. How many times in WvW or PvP do you see a player actually hit 25 stacks of anything? I have yet to see it… the player character is LONG defeated before it comes close to that point.
The condition caps are really only an issue in large group open-world PvE (and to a smaller extent in 5-man groups), where the big mobs are nothing more than damage sponges with millions of health points.
This is a great idea. I hope Anet finally addresses this long standing issue.
Thanks for your support!
Good post but here’s the thing -snip-
How dejected you feel should not be a reason for others to cease their own voices.
Personally, I think they have listened to many player suggestions for other issues and improved greatly since launch, so there’s no reason to stop. You have sympathy for being on the disappointed end of the spectrum.
OP, as a PvE only change, I really like this idea. I think it has a lot of merit.
Thanks!
converting full stacks of a condition into a different condition (like Bleeding into Hemorrhaging, like someone suggested) would be a pretty elegant solution.
Before making this thread, I had considered higher-tier conditions (Hemorrhaging being super-obvious), but I decided against it because in the case of zergs, the stack cap would still be present. Betting against the hordes of GW2 players reaching 25 hemorrhaging seems unintelligent.
There’s also the matter that the core issue is conditions take up bandwidth. Higher tier conditions would still occupy bandwidth, so I went with instant damage to minimize it.
Maybe ArenaNet will deem these points negligible.
In regards to PvE and WvW balance being the same: ArenaNet already has several items that work differently in PvE and WvW, or don’t work at all in WvW
This, is very true!
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