(edited by Miporin.3529)
[Suggestion] Condition suck
ignoring your obvious lack of understanding for any player vs player environment, I somewhat agree – conditions are in a bad place in pve right now.
the great jungle worm event were the first and so far only pve event to ever add something where condition damage shines – and they provide a possible solution to make condi dmg viable in pve. toughness of enemies needs to go up a lot and vitality down. most bosses have normal toughness but incredibly high vitality, making them simple damage sponges, where condi damage can never be of use.
the husks are a really nice mechanic imho, each wurm needs something from 3 to 5 condi players to keep them at bay. these players are vital to keep the dps zerg alive and effective – not quite as important as the deboof (does only eu call them that, by the way?) guard (or 2 eles to do the same job), but usefull nonetheless.
adding some high-toughness bosses in dungeons and open world events would facilitate this as well, but even then, there’s still the problem with overwriting and capping stacks. a maximum of two condi players should attack any given mob, or they drastically lose effectiveness. so far, it only really works if there are multiple enemies with different weaknesses so players can split up.
in general pve, debuffing (applying weakness, blinds and poison) can be done by anone, there doesn’t need to be a dedicated condi player)
and if you’re playing mesmer, yes, zerker is arguably still the best for pve. there’s pretty much no redundancy compared to thief/warr, as your main job will still be to bring reflects, signet of inspiration, boon/condi removal, pulling/grouping up enemies and all your other amazing and unique skills.
yes, it would be nice if armor sets had a bigger impact, but they don’t, you can use all your skills independent of them, so there’s only zerks to go for because damage is always needed.
yes, it would be nice if armor sets had a bigger impact, but they don’t, you can use all your skills independent of them, so there’s only zerks to go for because damage is always needed.
And this is my main point, only the zerk build is very effective both in pve and wvw, rest sucks because everyone can do condition in a way of another.
Anet should focus more on specific roles and boost your desire path based on traits, skill and armour you want really use, so if you want to be a “debuffer” as a main role you should be able to, without any restrictions or caps in damage per second.
This need a serious balance or everyone will continue to walk around in full zerk gear, everyone will ask for zerk in dungeons or you will get kicked, while everything else still useless or used as a joke.
obvious troll is obvious
if aything conditions are the most broken spec specially thanks to dire gear offering ultimate survivability an damage my fastest kills have been of 7 4 an 2 seconds with nothing but raw conditions
if you’re not having massive damage output with 2k condi damage you’re using direct damage attacks or something or got bad traits
Yes conditions are pretty much worthless in both PvE and normal WvW. They are more effective in sPvP and roaming WvW.
In PvE they suck because of the condition cap, and the fact that most bosses are either immune to or remove all conditions every 5 seconds or so.
In WvW they suck because of lemongrass and poultry soup (-40% condition duration) combined with the fact that there are literally 10-20 cleanses happening every 2 seconds. This means you will never be able to stack more than 2 bleeds on someone before they are cleansed and the bleeds are removed.
Just think of it this way. A thief or a warrior can auto-attack you every second for ~2.5k dmg. In order for a condition damage build to get up to 2.5k dps they need to stack ~15 stacks of bleed on someone. If a player is dumb enough to let you get stacks that high then they probably would just commit suicide if you asked them to.
you cant compare condis to zerker. Zerker needs 3 dif stats to do dmg and its dmg starts right away but you can die right away too. Condis need 1 stat the other is optional. Condis do dmg over time and can go crazy. You can be tanky or have heals to keep you going as condi unlike zerker.
If anything Condis need a nerf. They are based on 1 stat and you just need to grab that one thing and then the rest you can stack up on hp and armor. Condis have no set balance at all. But condis only work in small fights or things like spvp/tpvp. In zerg fights condi clears happen alot and zerk/power builds are best for that.
Anywhere else but zerging condi is stupid op.
you cant compare condis to zerker. Zerker needs 3 dif stats to do dmg and its dmg starts right away but you can die right away too. Condis need 1 stat the other is optional. Condis do dmg over time and can go crazy. You can be tanky or have heals to keep you going as condi unlike zerker.
If anything Condis need a nerf. They are based on 1 stat and you just need to grab that one thing and then the rest you can stack up on hp and armor. Condis have no set balance at all. But condis only work in small fights or things like spvp/tpvp. In zerg fights condi clears happen alot and zerk/power builds are best for that.
Anywhere else but zerging condi is stupid op.
+1000
what this person said
and actually work on groups if you use necros an mesmers with wells an stuff and that whole clones slapping condies in aoe 600 range when killed
hower the real condi threat in large zerg fights in wvw is Sup Arrow carts eat a koi cake and bam 1 minute duration condies doesnt sound like much but when you conside mastered ac mastery you got super wide aoe that applies (8 times?) and needless to say ac skills scale with condi damage as well as condi duration from player
therefore condition damage is actually broken as it works on siege
Going to ignore the obvious troll post and say condis are fine for pvp.
They need to fix condi caps in pve. PvP condis are fine where they are at. Just fix the issues with pve.
Follow the darkness into the depths, it’s more fun than the light can provide.
They need to design bosses/events where consistent direct damage is not possible.
Someone in full zerker with 5k dps potential won’t be doing 5k dps if the boss constantly stealths/drop target/make you cleanse/make you block.
DPS doesn’t mean anything if you aren’t consistently attacking.
In these cases where you can’t just run around and consistently auto-attack, a condition build where background dmg ticks even when you aren’t actively attacking might actually be comparable to a zerker build.
It’s best not to confuse the issue or you risk confusing anet. Condition damage doesn’t need to be “more” powerful it simply needs to be treated like direct damage. And, what I mean by that is that it needs to be managed by player. The problem is that condition damage is managed by stacks on a boss where it should be simply damage per tick over a certain number of ticks—i.e., all damage should be damage by player.
This is the reason why if you add a condition player to any given group you are only adding ‘white’ damage whereas if you add a berserker player you are adding real damage. This must change. And the only change necessary is to account for all kinds of damage by player. Anet initially played a technical difficulties card here, but hey, all games already can do this. Anet needs to fix condition damage—the fix to to account for it by player—problem solved.
Edit: Reading through the answers and suggestions above is rather discouraging. The actual problem is simple and straightforward. And, the actual solution is equally straightforward. This problem has already been solved in every game that has the damage over time concept.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Condition builds are not “useless” nor do they “suck”.
They DO have damage limitations when muiltiple players with Condition builds attack the same target (and that situation DOES currently “suck”).
Taking a bunch of condition builds into a Zerg type setting will be detrimental tot he overall damage capabilities of the group and this is NOT the case with Zerker or Power builds.
Something should be done to remove the limitation and / or mitigate the damage lost, but simply “increasing” the damage condition damage does is NOT the correct answer to the problem and suggesting it is means you don’t really understand the issue you are trying to suggestion a solution to.
I’ve always advocated some sort of BONUS damage per hit on a PvE max condition stacked foe that is based on the players Condition Damage attribute (would require very high Condition Damage to cause significant BONUS damage).
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From what I’ve seen, the problem on bosses in the open world and in dungeons, is a lot of people do conditions. You’ll be lucky to get a stack or two on a world boss, resulting in low DPS all around. My solution for it is make conditions “combine”. Say an enemy gets 25 stacks of bleeding. Currently, that’s it. No more bleeds on him. I think that once he/she hits that 25 bleed stacks all 25 are removed and a new condition is applied. That condition could be called anything, “Double Bleeding”, “Bleeding Overflow”, etc. but it would have the average duration of all those bleed stacks with their damage output all added up.
See what I’m getting at here? If I’m confusing, I apologize. Conditions that stack duration would become “convert” to a new condition after so many seconds (probably a lot in PvP/WvW). For PvE I’d think about 30 seconds would be good. The current condition would be removed and a new condition would be applied. The new condition would deal 3 times the average damage of that stack of Poison/Burning/Torment for 1/3 the time.
These changes would make conditions deal damage a lot faster yes, but it would help raise the ceiling on condition damage without having to apply too many conditions and overload the server.
I outlined a few possibilities in another post, here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Improving-champ-mechanics/first#post3851698
If we get enough good minds on it, maybe we can give the devs something new to work with.
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From what I’ve seen, the problem on bosses in the open world and in dungeons, is a lot of people do conditions. You’ll be lucky to get a stack or two on a world boss, resulting in low DPS all around. My solution for it is make conditions “combine”. Say an enemy gets 25 stacks of bleeding. Currently, that’s it. No more bleeds on him. I think that once he/she hits that 25 bleed stacks all 25 are removed and a new condition is applied. That condition could be called anything, “Double Bleeding”, “Bleeding Overflow”, etc. but it would have the average duration of all those bleed stacks with their damage output all added up.
See what I’m getting at here? If I’m confusing, I apologize. Conditions that stack duration would become “convert” to a new condition after so many seconds (probably a lot in PvP/WvW). For PvE I’d think about 30 seconds would be good. The current condition would be removed and a new condition would be applied. The new condition would deal 3 times the average damage of that stack of Poison/Burning/Torment for 1/3 the time.
These changes would make conditions deal damage a lot faster yes, but it would help raise the ceiling on condition damage without having to apply too many conditions and overload the server.
How do you think WoW manages the server load with thousands of affliction warlocks. All those warlocks are dealing damage per tick over a given number of ticks. And, when I left WoW afflocks were topping the raid parses for sustained damage though they seemed to fall in recent patches.
The point is that there is no inherent problem, architecturally, in managing damage by player. And, it is the only way to solve this problem. There is absolutely no need for further creativity on this as the problem has been solved. Simply manage damage for all damage types by player. Direct damage will be front-loaded and therein lies the trade-off, while condition damage will be over time (damage per tick X a number of ticks) but all damage will be by player-exactly as every other game who has these concepts does it. The problem has already been solved—there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
Please don’t ask them to improve conditions on PvP, they’re perfectly fine as they are (don’t make this condition meta even worse).
Where they need fixing is in condition stacking for bosses in PvE, now that’s where they are really lacking.
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@Raine I was told that the reason for bleed limits was to reduce strain on the servers. I think we can all agree that the 25 limit stack on bleeds was, and is, a horrible idea, I was just trying to work around the limitations. It would be easier to just remove the 25 bleed limit, so I agree that would be much better than implementing my shoddy attempt at reworking conditions, or reinventing the wheel.
@Raine I was told that the reason for bleed limits was to reduce strain on the servers. I think we can all agree that the 25 limit stack on bleeds was, and is, a horrible idea, I was just trying to work around the limitations. It would be easier to just remove the 25 bleed limit, so I agree that would be much better than implementing my shoddy attempt at reworking conditions, or reinventing the wheel.
Yes, Anet initially played the technical difficulties card on this issue. When reminded that all games with the concept of damage over time are able to do this they softened their position and admitted a problem. They have, however, not fixed a very straightforward problem, so I’m left suspecting they have painted themselves into a corner through bad architecture.
Berserker does not “require” all three stats. When you equip Berserker you are getting exponential stacking due to the relation between the stats.
Condition damage and similar stats do not have this relation. They are a linear attribute and can only be increased linearly. You are not sacrificing anything when you equip Berserker gear. You are trading off defensive stats for exponential damage.
On top of this, you don’t seem to realise Condition damage starts at 0. The only reason Condition damage is strong in PvP and WvW is because it ignores armor, which is the primary form of defense in those game modes, especially for low-HP classes like Elementalists and Guardians, who can be killed by only a few conditions very rapidly if they are not cleansed due to 10K HP.
And anyone who thinks conditions do damage anywhere near Berserker, you are horribly mistaken. In PvP, a Berserker Warrior can one shot someone else with Kill shot. In the past, this was even possible with certain Thief attacks.
In my opinion, Condition damage and Power need to have the same relation. Besides fixing the stack limit issues in PvE, make Precision and Ferocity apply to both Power and Condition damage to even the playing field.
Then weaken conditions if it is too much.
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Berserker does not “require” all three stats. When you equip Berserker you are getting exponential stacking due to the relation between the stats.
Condition damage and similar stats do not have this relation. They are a linear attribute and can only be increased linearly. You are not sacrificing anything when you equip Berserker gear. You are trading off defensive stats for exponential damage.
On top of this, you don’t seem to realise Condition damage starts at 0. The only reason Condition damage is strong in PvP and WvW is because it ignores armor, which is the primary form of defense in those game modes, especially for low-HP classes like Elementalists and Guardians, who can be killed by only a few conditions very rapidly if they are not cleansed due to 10K HP.
And anyone who thinks conditions do damage anywhere near Berserker, you are horribly mistaken. In PvP, a Berserker Warrior can one shot someone else with Kill shot. In the past, this was even possible with certain Thief attacks.
In my opinion, Condition damage and Power need to have the same relation. Besides fixing the stack limit issues in PvE, make Precision and Ferocity apply to both Power and Condition damage to even the playing field.
Then weaken conditions if it is too much.
In my opinion, and that of every other game with the concepts, if you simply account for direct damage and condition damage by player, the problem will be solved. It’s so simple that most people tend to miss it.
you cant compare condis to zerker. Zerker needs 3 dif stats to do dmg and its dmg starts right away but you can die right away too. Condis need 1 stat the other is optional. Condis do dmg over time and can go crazy. You can be tanky or have heals to keep you going as condi unlike zerker.
If anything Condis need a nerf. They are based on 1 stat and you just need to grab that one thing and then the rest you can stack up on hp and armor. Condis have no set balance at all. But condis only work in small fights or things like spvp/tpvp. In zerg fights condi clears happen alot and zerk/power builds are best for that.
Anywhere else but zerging condi is stupid op.
Direct damage scales in a non-linear way and damage modifiers and vulnerability increase the damage even further.
Conditions can scale up by 3 stat too, namely condition damage, condition duration and precision gives additional benefits with procced traits and / or sigils. But even just simply ignoring the two later stat, you can get a reasonable amount of damage against players(low hp, low armor), because pvp noobs lacks perception, thus they think conditions appear from thin air and skills can’t be dodged / blocked / invulned etc. And meanwhile you can completely negate damage the same way as with direct damage abilities, you can further increase your survival by condi cleanses or passive immunites.
Please stop spreading misinformation if you lack knowledge about game mechanics.
edit: grammar
(edited by Dalanor.5387)
Conditions are too good in small confrontations against players, and too bad in bigger scale fights and against higher rank enemies.
That’s because they have fixed caps instead variable caps.
On top of caps on each condition, there should be a shared cap for all conditions a creature can have, and make that cap tied to the creature’s rank. And also tie each condition cap to the creature’s rank.
Then against an epic boss players would be able to stack much more conditions and higher stacks of them, but against a single player or a normal creature that isn’t even a veteran they would not be able to put a massive amount of conditions in little time and get them killed before their condition removal finishes its activation.
(edited by MithranArkanere.8957)