[Suggestion] Elegant Fix to Condition Stacks

[Suggestion] Elegant Fix to Condition Stacks

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Agent Noun.7350

Agent Noun.7350

What’s the problem? At the moment, for technical reasons involving server bandwidth, any condition that stacks in intensity is limited to 25 stacks per target, no matter how many players are applying that condition. This is great in PvP and WvW, because condition damage can be outright withering. In PvE, however, it means that condition damage is extremely suboptimal in any group content (dungeons and fractals) and entirely useless in large events (like world bosses). To add to this, many skills used by Power/Precision/Ferocity builds apply conditions, so stacks can be taken up by weaker conditions applied by players with low Condition Damage.

Let’s get a couple things out of the way right off the bat:

First, please note that I am not suggesting any buffs to condition damage for PvP or WvW. Conditions are already plenty powerful there.

Second, we already know that giving each player a “personal” stack won’t work. Remember, the stated reason for the condition stack cap in the first place is that each condition requires server bandwidth, so having a potentially dozens of separate stacks of each condition on a world boss would be a huge problem there.

Third, this change probably doesn’t need to apply to Vulnerability. You’ll see why it shouldn’t later on, but at the same time, it isn’t like people’s builds rely solely on Vulnerability to do damage. I think 25 stacks of Vulnerability is plenty.

So, how do we solve this?

Second-tier conditions. I can’t take credit for the idea—I’ve seen it around before—but I think it’s an elegant solution and I’d like to have an active thread about it if at all possible. Most importantly, and I’m going to include this in this post multiple times: second-tier conditions should only work on NPC enemies. Players should be completely immune.

In short, it works like this. Let’s say you’re applying Bleeding to a target. Right now, when it reaches 25 stacks, you can’t apply any more Bleeding until some of the stacks fall off. This change would implement a new condition, called Hemorrhaging (or something like that), that replaces Bleeding once it reaches 25 stacks. The new Hemorrhaging condition would do equal damage to those 25 stacks of Bleeding over the exact same duration that those stacks had left and removes that Bleeding, allowing players to apply more. Second-tier conditions like Hemorrhaging also stack by intensity, so in situations with a bunch of players applying Bleeding, you could potentially reach multiple stacks of Hemorrhaging as well.

(Just because I enjoy it, here are some hypothetical names. Bleeding could convert to Hemorrhaging; Confusion could convert to Turmoil; and Torment could convert to Anguish.)

Let me see if I can address some possible concerns you might have:

1. Won’t this make conditions even more powerful in WvW and PvP? No! Hemorrhaging, Turmoil, and Anguish would only work on NPC enemies, never players. (See, I told you I’d put this in here more than once.)

2. Wouldn’t having potentially hundreds of stacks of Bleeding applied to a boss potentially do way too much condition damage? That depends. Do you think letting dozens of players do direct damage (via Berserker builds) at the same time is way too much damage? This change would allow Condition Damage-heavy builds to coexist as well as Power/Precision/Ferocity builds do.

3. Doesn’t this potentially increase the amount of damage a single condition-applier can do if they can reach 25 stacks of Bleeding multiple times? Maybe. But how likely is it that, say, a single Necromancer is going to apply another 25 stacks of Bleeding before the first Hemorrhaging condition wears off? How likely is it that he or she will apply 25 stacks of Bleeding reliably and regularly in the first place?

4. This doesn’t help with damaging conditions that stack by duration, like Poison and Burning. No, it doesn’t, and frankly I’m not too sure what to do about those. They’re not limited by the server bandwidth-saving condition cap, but rather by the very fact that they stack by duration. But helping with conditions that stack by intensity would still be a huge help for players who want to play Condition Damage builds in group PvE.

5. We’ve talked about fixing the condition cap before. ArenaNet isn’t going to do anything about it! Maybe, maybe not. I still think it’s worth keeping on everyone’s radar.

So: any thoughts, comments, questions, or suggestions? Personally, I think this can serve as a really elegant solution to the condition cap issue that wouldn’t add hundreds of stacks of conditions (and thus hugely increase server bandwidth issues). Therefore, I think it’s worth a try.

(edited by Agent Noun.7350)

[Suggestion] Elegant Fix to Condition Stacks

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Xhyros.1340

Xhyros.1340

4. Make it act the same way for burning and poison. Say once you hit 30 second duration or so, convert it to a 10 second duration condition that’s 3x as strong. For burning it could be like, second degree burning.

[Suggestion] Elegant Fix to Condition Stacks

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: Miku.6297

Miku.6297

2. Wouldn’t having potentially hundreds of stacks of Bleeding applied to a boss potentially do way too much condition damage? That depends. Do you think letting dozens of players do direct damage (via Berserker builds) at the same time is way too much damage? This change would allow Condition Damage-heavy builds to coexist as well as Power/Precision/Ferocity builds do.

Many of the bosses you are talking about can’t be crit… So the power from a zerker stat is great… Prec/ferocity; not so much.

[Suggestion] Elegant Fix to Condition Stacks

in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Posted by: chemiclord.3978

chemiclord.3978

You could go ahead and have ALL of those conditions affect players… because no player would live long enough to see them. Players don’t have the health pool to eat 25 stacks of a condition without cleansing them.

The problem I have here…

The condition cap is really only an issue in one place: large scale open world PvE (and specifically against the damage sponge champion and legendary mobs). It CAN be a problem in 5-man dungeons if you run more than 2 heavy condition build players, but that is manageable.

And in open world PvE, you better believe a zerg of 50+ players can rip through 25 stacks of bleeding before a Hemorrhage wears off. If even 10 of those players were actively building for conditions, you’d see that happen in less than 20 seconds.

There are simply too many skills that cause bleeding and can cause bleeding with nothing but your auto-attack. THAT is the problem, and that will REMAIN the problem because there’s no simple way to fix it other than to completely scrap it and start from scratch.

I’m sorry, but you’re just going to have to accept that condition damage will NEVER be viable in open world PvE unless there is a huge expansion or feature pack that completely changes how conditions work in this game.

(edited by chemiclord.3978)