Guild Wars 2

Hello!

I know this has been talked about before, but I don’t want to bump old threads.

I have been playing GW2 on and off since launch, and every time I come back there is one thing that really annoys me: Stacking in dungeons and fractals.
It makes everything very hard for some classes, and it locks down the meta (imo).

I feel like the meta is all evolved around stacking, wich I find too easy (and very cheesy). It takes a way a lot of the fun from the excellent mechanics you have made and all the awesome bosses. I would love for this to be a bit better in HoT, and I also think alot of others would as well.

Some suggestions:

1. Cleave damage. Some bosses could deal more dmg with skills if they hit many targets. This might cause melee oriented groups to struggle, and would just lead to everyone spreading out in a ring around the boss. Still I think this is an idea to be built upon.

2. Reworked aggro system. I know that we don’t like the holy trinity, but I think the aggro system can be reworked in some way, so that ranged options become more viable. In combination with expanding boon range that would be awesome.

Any other suggestions? Do anyone else agree that this is ruining the fun in two of the major aspects of PvE?

Don’t wanna stack? Then don’t stack. It’s inefficient and unnecessary in almost all cases. There, I just saved the devs some time for making more content. You’re welcome.

just saying, not that i’m against you or anything. Your suggestions already exist in high level fractal.
You dont stack bosses in fractal (well except swamp) and ranging is preferred for some bosses.

Vetlie.9350:

Do anyone else agree that this is ruining the fun in two of the major aspects of PvE?

no

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3-4 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

If you want to play a certain way (no stacking and ranged combat) then create a group specifically for it. Do not force players to play the way that you think that they should. Yes, suggesting ways to nerf techniques that you do not like is doing just that.

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

I am trying to be constructive and make reward skill. I know this is not a popular topic.
My suggestion #2 was not about nerfing the stacking, but making ranging easier. I have nothing against stacking, I just like variation, and some mechanics are possible to “skip” because of poor AI.

On the examples there are many. Almost all bosses i face my pug wants to stack, but hey, maybe I was unlucky with the first 100 pugs. Maybe the next would be better:)) No reason to get that kitten for wanting to discuss the state of the game. Thanks.

Ayrilana.1396:

If you want to play a certain way (no stacking and ranged combat) then create a group specifically for it. Do not force players to play the way that you think that they should. Yes, suggesting ways to nerf techniques that you do not like is doing just that.

I am going to do just that I was not thinking about forcing people to play in any way, I just want to hear if others agree or not (seems like most people doesn’t).

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

I said faster and more efficient. Not safer. There is zero point in stacking for any of those fights.

I personally have no issue for anything that increases the effectiveness of not stacking and/or using ranged attacks so long as it doesn’t come at the cost of existing methods. For most bosses, there’s really no reason to stack anyway. For trash, I only see doing that to LOS them to pull ranged mobs closer if your group doesn’t have people that can do that.

I absolutely agree Ayrilana.1396, wich rules out my first suggestion.

I personally think the PvE in GW2 is some of the best I have played in any MMO, but I really love it when I play with new people who doesn’t stack on every boss where you can stack. It’s usually much slower though

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue. High DPS don’t need to as they can burst him down very quickly but you normally won’t find that with pugs.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

Tentonhammr.7849:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

I said faster and more efficient. Not safer. There is zero point in stacking for any of those fights.

So balling up the golems to burst them down at the same time is not faster or more effective to not doing so? I recall at least one of the golems being ranged.

As I said in a previous post, I’m not for stacking at every single encounter in dungeons.

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

You can mesmer pull or have a guard pull them all together and burst them on the spot so easily there is no real excuse for the corner stack what so ever.

And Alpha, you can burst him almost to 0 so easily him running around like a chicken should almost never happen at all.

When you mention these stack spots are you talking about pugging or running with people who, to be blunt, aren’t bad? Because I guess I can see these being a bit useful for really badly optimised groups with pitiful dps or for low skill players.

But yeah in general real no excuse what so ever. Like pretty much every stack spot is a remnent of a time long ago, and the sad thing is I willing to bet 99% of pug players or guilds who use the pug stack spots have literally no idea why they do it.

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

You can mesmer pull or have a guard pull them all together and burst them on the spot so easily there is no real excuse for the corner stack what so ever.

And Alpha, you can burst him almost to 0 so easily him running around like a chicken should almost never happen at all.

When you mention these stack spots are you talking about pugging or running with people who, to be blunt, aren’t bad? Because I guess I can see these being a bit useful for really badly optimised groups with pitiful dps or for low skill players.

But yeah in general real no excuse what so ever. Like pretty much every stack spot is a remnent of a time long ago, and the sad thing is I willing to bet 99% of pug players or guilds who use the pug stack spots have literally no idea why they do it.

I know that they can. And if your group doesn’t have either of the two or they don’t know how? I know Mesmer it’s much easier to mess up the pull to group them.

In high DPS groups you can burst down Alpha in a matter of seconds but those are very rare to find in pugs. I’m referring to things in pug groups as they’re very different than high coordinated speed clear groups. i’ve found the few spots to be very effective rather than relying on someone to pull them together and have them mess it up.

I probably should have been more specific in my posts.

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

You can mesmer pull or have a guard pull them all together and burst them on the spot so easily there is no real excuse for the corner stack what so ever.

And Alpha, you can burst him almost to 0 so easily him running around like a chicken should almost never happen at all.

When you mention these stack spots are you talking about pugging or running with people who, to be blunt, aren’t bad? Because I guess I can see these being a bit useful for really badly optimised groups with pitiful dps or for low skill players.

But yeah in general real no excuse what so ever. Like pretty much every stack spot is a remnent of a time long ago, and the sad thing is I willing to bet 99% of pug players or guilds who use the pug stack spots have literally no idea why they do it.

I know that they can. And if your group doesn’t have either of the two or they don’t know how? I know Mesmer it’s much easier to mess up the pull to group them.

In high DPS groups you can burst down Alpha in a matter of seconds but those are very rare to find in pugs. I’m referring to things in pug groups as they’re very different than high coordinated speed clear groups. i’ve found the few spots to be very effective rather than relying on someone to pull them together and have them mess it up.

I probably should have been more specific in my posts.

Oh, so the game should be balanced around what strats ignorant pugs who barely know how to play and don’t have a clue what they are doing use.

Makes sense.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021848/Building-a-Better-Centaur-AI

Do not worry. Stacking’s days are numbered.

Enemies WILL scatter sooner or later, after their AIs get adjusted. Ranged enemies will have an even stronger compulsion of keeping their distance from the enemy.

It’s only a matter of time until all mindless skill-less tactics that take advantage of AI flaws instead of profession’s skills are all done. Even if it takes years, it’ll happen.

NikeEU.7690:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

You can mesmer pull or have a guard pull them all together and burst them on the spot so easily there is no real excuse for the corner stack what so ever.

And Alpha, you can burst him almost to 0 so easily him running around like a chicken should almost never happen at all.

When you mention these stack spots are you talking about pugging or running with people who, to be blunt, aren’t bad? Because I guess I can see these being a bit useful for really badly optimised groups with pitiful dps or for low skill players.

But yeah in general real no excuse what so ever. Like pretty much every stack spot is a remnent of a time long ago, and the sad thing is I willing to bet 99% of pug players or guilds who use the pug stack spots have literally no idea why they do it.

I know that they can. And if your group doesn’t have either of the two or they don’t know how? I know Mesmer it’s much easier to mess up the pull to group them.

In high DPS groups you can burst down Alpha in a matter of seconds but those are very rare to find in pugs. I’m referring to things in pug groups as they’re very different than high coordinated speed clear groups. i’ve found the few spots to be very effective rather than relying on someone to pull them together and have them mess it up.

I probably should have been more specific in my posts.

Oh, so the game should be balanced around what strats ignorant pugs who barely know how to play and don’t have a clue what they are doing use.

Makes sense.

I’m not calling for that.

MithranArkanere.8957:

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1021848/Building-a-Better-Centaur-AI

Do not worry. Stacking’s days are numbered.

Enemies WILL scatter sooner or later, after their AIs get adjusted. Ranged enemies will have an even stronger compulsion of keeping their distance from the enemy.

It’s only a matter of time until all mindless skill-less tactics that take advantage of AI flaws instead of profession’s skills are all done. Even if it takes years, it’ll happen.

And what a grand day that will be, when 99% of dungeon/fractal pugs get a bit of a harsh shock of reality in regards to their knowledge and skill in this game.

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

You can mesmer pull or have a guard pull them all together and burst them on the spot so easily there is no real excuse for the corner stack what so ever.

And Alpha, you can burst him almost to 0 so easily him running around like a chicken should almost never happen at all.

When you mention these stack spots are you talking about pugging or running with people who, to be blunt, aren’t bad? Because I guess I can see these being a bit useful for really badly optimised groups with pitiful dps or for low skill players.

But yeah in general real no excuse what so ever. Like pretty much every stack spot is a remnent of a time long ago, and the sad thing is I willing to bet 99% of pug players or guilds who use the pug stack spots have literally no idea why they do it.

I know that they can. And if your group doesn’t have either of the two or they don’t know how? I know Mesmer it’s much easier to mess up the pull to group them.

In high DPS groups you can burst down Alpha in a matter of seconds but those are very rare to find in pugs. I’m referring to things in pug groups as they’re very different than high coordinated speed clear groups. i’ve found the few spots to be very effective rather than relying on someone to pull them together and have them mess it up.

I probably should have been more specific in my posts.

Ele with earth shield and Engi with Streamlined kits + bomb kit can also do the pull just fine. Just a fyi

I actually find the corner stack at those golems to be less consistent than using tools to bunch them up.

I also find Subject Alpha easier in the open because I can avoid the teeth or have it on me and not the rest of the group allowing for an easier time.

Corner stacking at this point is pretty much for trash. Alphard in Arah is the only one I can think of where we LoS, but I think it’s pretty much designed for that with the mechanics. Lupi of course putting him on the wall makes it easier to avoid triggering the p3 frenzied blast, but at this point you actually want him to do that because otherwise he does the auto more often which is more of a pain to deal with.

I guess maybe Kholer to avoid his strafing move. And while it’s for the trash I think the Dredge before the final boss of SE3 is also a good example where stacking/LoSing is used quite effectively. So 3 bosses? my brain hurts trying to think of more

Jerus.4350:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Khenzo.2465:

Ayrilana.1396:

Tentonhammr.7849:

Please give 1 example where it’s actually faster and more efficient to stack a boss in a corner. The stacking in a corner meta was fixed when we stopped taking 3 warriors and FGS was nerfed.

Golems in SE P1 and CoE all paths. Subject Alpha otherwise he moves around (backs up until pinned against something). Also easier to dodge forward into the wall to prevent him from moving.

Litearlly no group worth their salt stacks in the corner for the SE1 golems.

And same goes for Alpha.

Alpha fun fact – Did you know he’s actually more dangerous to stack in the corner for alpha? His stone tooth skill is a targetted cone, when you all cuddle in front of him you all can tank the damage.

And if you can dodge through alpha to keep him more or less locked into the spot where he spawns.

Both just really, really poor examples of where it’s better, becasue it isn’t.

It’s more efficient to cleave/burst them all at once that one by one. It’s been awhile since I’ve run dungeons but I vaguely remember at least one of the golems being ranged. You corner stack to ball them up.

I’ve been in groups which have someone who dodges backwards and occasionally messes things up with an ill-timed crystal prison thing or he moves after them. I’ve also fought Subject Alpha with everyone stacked on him in melee but he keeps moving around. The cone earth attack if his really isn’t an issue.

Also keep in mind that I’m not saying it’s the best thing to do blindly for every single encounter in the dungeons.

You can mesmer pull or have a guard pull them all together and burst them on the spot so easily there is no real excuse for the corner stack what so ever.

And Alpha, you can burst him almost to 0 so easily him running around like a chicken should almost never happen at all.

When you mention these stack spots are you talking about pugging or running with people who, to be blunt, aren’t bad? Because I guess I can see these being a bit useful for really badly optimised groups with pitiful dps or for low skill players.

But yeah in general real no excuse what so ever. Like pretty much every stack spot is a remnent of a time long ago, and the sad thing is I willing to bet 99% of pug players or guilds who use the pug stack spots have literally no idea why they do it.

I know that they can. And if your group doesn’t have either of the two or they don’t know how? I know Mesmer it’s much easier to mess up the pull to group them.

In high DPS groups you can burst down Alpha in a matter of seconds but those are very rare to find in pugs. I’m referring to things in pug groups as they’re very different than high coordinated speed clear groups. i’ve found the few spots to be very effective rather than relying on someone to pull them together and have them mess it up.

I probably should have been more specific in my posts.

Ele with earth shield and Engi with Streamlined kits + bomb kit can also do the pull just fine. Just a fyi

I actually find the corner stack at those golems to be less consistent than using tools to bunch them up.

I also find Subject Alpha easier in the open because I can avoid the teeth or have it on me and not the rest of the group allowing for an easier time.

Corner stacking at this point is pretty much for trash. Alphard in Arah is the only one I can think of where we LoS, but I think it’s pretty much designed for that with the mechanics. Lupi of course putting him on the wall makes it easier to avoid triggering the p3 frenzied blast, but at this point you actually want him to do that because otherwise he does the auto more often which is more of a pain to deal with.

I guess maybe Kholer to avoid his strafing move. And while it’s for the trash I think the Dredge before the final boss of SE3 is also a good example where stacking/LoSing is used quite effectively. So 3 bosses? my brain hurts trying to think of more

I’m not familiar with Engi but shield is an option for Ele although I can’t say I’ve seen anyone use it. With pugs I found it more consistent than relying on one of them to know how to pull the three together. I’ve ran in groups where nobody pulls anything at all. Maybe I’m just jaded and very pessimistic about them knowing what they’re doing.

A couple of other examples of stacking would be for TA. You stack to pull the spiders into the tunnel to prevent over-aggro before Malrona. You stack again in a tunnel before Fyonna to pull her out of that room with the eggs.

Ayrilana.1396:

A couple of other examples of stacking would be for TA. You stack to pull the spiders into the tunnel to prevent over-aggro before Malrona. You stack again in a tunnel before Fyonna to pull her out of that room with the eggs.

Fyonna is better done in the room. Faster. The spiders before Malrona are trashs, so yeah, LOSing is better.

Vetlie.9350:

I have been playing GW2 on and off since launch, and every time I come back there is one thing that really annoys me: Stacking in dungeons and fractals.
It makes everything very hard for some classes, and it locks down the meta (imo).

I feel like the meta is all evolved around stacking, wich I find too easy (and very cheesy). It takes a way a lot of the fun from the excellent mechanics you have made and all the awesome bosses.

As always with these kind of threads, please be very specific about what you mean with “stacking”, otherwise it gets confusing fast. By stacking, do you mean:

1.) Simply fighting in melee range (environment is irrelevant)
2.) Pulling into a corner and fighting there in melee range (environment is relevant)
3.) Pulling somewhere where a mob mechanism is circumvented and fighting there in melee range (environment is relevant and potentially game-breaking)
4.) Something else entirely.

Point 3 is something you can bug-report and that Anet even infrequently fixes. As a matter of fact, it is also something that most experienced dungeon/fractal runners consider as unsuitable behaviour. I don’t really see the issue there.

Point 2 has been rendered obsolete with the changes to FGS and similar skills a few months ago and is actually counter-productive (aka slower) at this point for experienced groups. Again, I don’t really see the issue there. If your group needs the extra safety-line, go for it, but you’re not actually at and advantage here.

Finally, point 1 is precisely how the game should be in my opinion: If I’m taking the extra risk going full melee, I should be rewarded with more damage / faster kill times for being experienced/coordinated enough to pull it off. If you are inexperienced and want to range, by all means, but since you got the range and safety advantage, it should go slower.

Kordash.2197:

Ayrilana.1396:

A couple of other examples of stacking would be for TA. You stack to pull the spiders into the tunnel to prevent over-aggro before Malrona. You stack again in a tunnel before Fyonna to pull her out of that room with the eggs.

Fyonna is better done in the room. Faster.

Try doing that in a pug group and let me know how it turns out.

Edit: I’ll just out this disclaimer here in case someone doesn’t read the rest of the thread.

I’m not supporting one side or another in this issue. I started off in this thread by saying people should simply form their own group if they want to play a certain way. In a later post I said that I wouldn’t care if what the OP wants because for effective to long as it didn’t negatively impact the way that the other side does their dungeon runs. Most suggestions that people have suggested in the past actually do have a negative impact.

I gave examples which were generally best in pug groups as they’re very unreliable. Things are obviously different in fixed groups where you have higher coordination, higher DPS, and higher chance of people knowing what they’re doing. However, the majority of groups done for dungeons are pugs through the LFG system. This was why I focused on those. There are a lot of things that work well in a speed clear groups that do not in your average pug group.

I do it every time i pug TA. And it’s almost daily (since my guildies don’t really run it, i need those tokens for the dungeonneer ) and goes perfectly well every single time.

Almost every single boss encounter that were stacked pre-FGS nerf are now pretty much doable in pugs in open field. I just drop “open field” in party chat before each encounter where stacking is now irelevant, and it goes well (sometimes we end up licking the floor, yeah, but the next try always works).

PUGs are stupid. So yes, they use easier tactics. Fyonna for example is very easily done where she stands. Don’t target and fight at max melee and things go very smoothly. You’re right that PUGs can’t be depended on, but it doesn’t mean the tactics they use are in any way good. And, these better tactics don’t require some absurd level of coordination, they just require the team to all understand the tactic that’s going to be used. It’s not really any different than knowing where the group will stack. Knowing whether we’re pulling Malrona trash outside or whether we’re stealthing in to the back is all it really takes.

Dont stack then, just braindead pugs do it these days
Plus Anet dropped dungeons altogether so no need to worry :’(

Jerus.4350:

PUGs are stupid.

Nope ! If you start with this assumption, it will go wrong. Heck, we are all humans, we make mistakes, labeling someone who don’t know as “stupid” is not only rude, it’s … stupid.

Pug’s are often ignorant. True. In 90% of the cases, if you explain nicely, without being agressive (or passive agressive), they’ll listen, learn, and won’t repeat the wrong tactic.

The problem lies in the 10% minority. They either don’t care or are kittens. Kick them, they deserve it.

My experience is quite the contrary. Maybe 50% listen, the rest either brush it off and ignore it, or bite your head off for “telling them what to do”. It’s why I typically just shut up and accept what I get unless they ask.

I don’t know guys, i more than often see : “pugs are jerks”, “pugs are stupid”…

Yeah, i often get pugs that don’t play very well. Doesn’t mean they are stupid or jerks, and when i teach them, i almost always get good results, and intantly the run get smoother. So why my experience differs so much than yours ? (and you know i’m a MetaLitistZerkBurger too)

NikeEU.7690:

Oh, so the game should be balanced around what strats ignorant pugs who barely know how to play and don’t have a clue what they are doing use.

Makes sense.

Considering that you started the game as one such ignorant pug, to use your own phrase, just like everyone else, yes.

editing to add that it is more useful to stack Alpha for at least one CoE path, the one he has the kitten able ice fields. With how widespread those fields are, being spread out is almost guaranteeing someone or three goes down with no chance of being helped.

Kordash.2197:

I don’t know guys, i more than often see : “pugs are jerks”, “pugs are stupid”…

Yeah, i often get pugs that don’t play very well. Doesn’t mean they are stupid or jerks, and when i teach them, i almost always get good results, and intantly the run get smoother. So why my experience differs so much than yours ? (and you know i’m a MetaLitistZerkBurger too)

Let me start by saying that I agree with your statement and share your puging experience. With that said, to answer your question:

In my opinion, the “bad/stupid pug” attitude is unjustly promoted by a bunch of frequent/popular forums users and/or streamers. They intentionally join “all welcome”, “inexperienced” and similar sorts of groups – or even start their own with similar snowflake-requirements. Then they come glee about it on the forums after it – obviously – didn’t go as smooth as it would have in an experienced and coordinated group. I cringe every time I get to read one of these “gems”.

On the other hand, there are players who know what to look for and what to avoid when dealing with the lfg-system and they make us of this knowledge in order to get mostly smooth runs. Honestly, there are plenty of very capable players out there pugging, you just have to ensure you can get them to group which each others, which takes a bit of an extra effort and good intentions of doing so.

Obviously, there are always random factors involved when it comes to pugging, but this has nothing to do with being bad or stupid. Any experienced player can quite easily deal with these sort of challenges.

Satenia.9025:

Kordash.2197:

I don’t know guys, i more than often see : “pugs are jerks”, “pugs are stupid”…

Yeah, i often get pugs that don’t play very well. Doesn’t mean they are stupid or jerks, and when i teach them, i almost always get good results, and intantly the run get smoother. So why my experience differs so much than yours ? (and you know i’m a MetaLitistZerkBurger too)

Let me start by saying that I agree with your statement and share your puging experience. With that said, to answer your question:

In my opinion, the “bad/stupid pug” attitude is unjustly promoted by a bunch of frequent/popular forums users and/or streamers. They intentionally join “all welcome”, “inexperienced” and similar sorts of groups – or even start their own with similar snowflake-requirements. Then they come glee about it on the forums after it – obviously – didn’t go as smooth as it would have in an experienced and coordinated group. I cringe every time I get to read one of these “gems”.

On the other hand, there are players who know what to look for and what to avoid when dealing with the lfg-system and they make us of this knowledge in order to get mostly smooth runs. Honestly, there are plenty of very capable players out there pugging, you just have to ensure you can get them to group which each others, which takes a bit of an extra effort and good intentions of doing so.

Obviously, there are always random factors involved when it comes to pugging, but this has nothing to do with being bad or stupid. Any experienced player can quite easily deal with these sort of challenges.

Agreed, but i don’t think Jerus falls in that category

Yeah, I read your question as a general one and replied accordingly. Obviously, I didn’t mean to speak on his behalf as I have no idea in what category he falls

I wish more of the dungeon forum people see this thread.

Warcry.1596:

I wish more of the dungeon forum people see this thread.

They do

The issue has never been stacking. That’s a symptom of a more insidious problem, which is that the AI is artificially unintelligent.

• Unlike (good) players, foes will remain standing in dangerous AoE.
• Unlike (good) players, instead of waiting for us to come to them, they will turn a corner and stack with each other, making them vulnerable to AoE.
• Unlike (good) players, foes use the same tactics, even as they lose health; at best, they only try out something different at fixed breakpoints (usually 75%, 50%, 25%).
• Unlike (good) players, foes never try to interrupt you. They just go through their rotation and cast potential interrupts at predictable intervals (allowing [good] players to avoid them entirely).

Thus, the more damage you can deal quickly, the faster the fight ends. Zerker gear and stacking are just two possible techniques for maximizing the burst; condition damage (traditionally) and healing/tanking happen to be among many mechanics that slow the burst.

That’s why the so-called meta always prefers zerker gear and always puts down anything else.

tl;dr the only way to change the meta to be dynamic (rather than the same everywhere) is to change the AI. Otherwise, all we’ll see are new techniques to maximize DPS over short periods of time.