Guild Wars 2

I’m tired of reporting griefers, spammers and other offenders to ArenaNET and with respect feel that you’re probably tired of it too so would like to propose a method in which the act of blocking another player can be implemented in order to make its usage more effective. At the moment I can be abused, attacked or assaulted when (1) another player thinks it’s amusing to use harsh, abusive or other commentary on me or which is directed at me; (2) Another player chooses to implement character-driven visual effects either at my avatar or in the immediate, targeted area of my avatar for the purposes of intimidation and/or too cause deliberate work-load on my graphics card thus interfering with my game play enjoyment, or (3) when another player chooses, deliberately to act to intimidate by occupying an area in my immediate vicinity or within the same space that my avatar is occupying and who may or may not move when I move to continue that intimidation.

Make no mistake, intimidation is a serious issue and can cause emotional damage, which is why I would like to have it taken seriously. At the moment when I am abused these are the primary methods wherein the act takes place and may well take the form of one or more (or all) of the above. To this end, I propose that in order to slim down the workload for ArenaNET that we be given re-imagined tools for dealing with these situations in world. At the moment, when such instances take place we can click on the offenders dialogue or their avatar and choose to report them and block them – both are valid, but blocking only acts to silence the dialogue from their avatar and does not prevent the other issues mentioned above. So I propose that when such instances occur, that the act of BLOCKING implement the following:

(a) That the offender’s avatar is silenced from the POV of the person activating the block.

(b) That the offenders avatar, items attached to that avatar, their name, titles and any sound and particle effects that they may be employing are also nullified (vanish).

© That the person who blocked them is made similarly invisible (as described above) as well so that they cannot be the focus of continued abuse by the offender.

I honestly ask this – is this so hard to implement? If you do as I’ve suggested here and when an avatar is blocked they cease to be an irritation and can no longer be directly targeted for abuse by the offender. If blocking takes place accidentally it is a simple matter of going to the blocked screen and reversing that block to make them appear once more. With a system like this in place, I will no longer need to worry about running into a potentially psychotic adolescent abuser while attempting to enjoy Guild Wars 2.

Shortly after the new Lion’s Arch was put in place I was abused by three or four griefers who decided to abuse me with dialogue which was frankly the sort of thing which in real life I would consider grounds for the cops, and what options did I have to deal with it? Well, blocking them made little difference as they simply chased me around the city, hounding me which I felt was very intimidating and teleporting (which seemed like a good idea at the time) made little difference for this mob was doing that too. I was forced eventually to leave, so they ‘won’ and that really irritated me. I knew there was nothing that could be done about it, until today when one of the same abusers who was involved in the above instance abused me again, personally today in Divinity’s Reach and this time when I was in company who found their actions both childish and unnecessary.

Because I had already blocked them I could not ’’hear’’ what they were saying but I certainly noticed their charging back and forth, attempting to cut me up. How can you not call that targeted intimidation? So, with that in mind I decided it was time to say something and with any luck be heard because I log into Guild Wars 2 to relax, to unwind and most of all to meet friends and adventure and certainly do not want to have to worry about being abused like this.

With all due respect, just block them and get on with your life. Life is full of unfairness and griefers, (real life). Your fixation on such things does nothing but bring more attention to them, which may be what they are looking for. Just move on, and enjoy life. Don’t sweat the small stuff.

I’m big on law and order and well, point taken but ultimately it comes down my believing absolutely in the 11th Commandment which is, “Thou shalt not get away with it.”

Sephas.8793:

With all due respect, just block them and get on with your life. Life is full of unfairness and griefers, (real life). Your fixation on such things does nothing but bring more attention to them, which may be what they are looking for. Just move on, and enjoy life. Don’t sweat the small stuff.

Too bad when real life is full of it and it’s difficult to deal with. Shouldn’t a game – which should be fun and where there might be remedies to that sort of **** that are not available in real life – try to keep that stuff away from players?

This is a game not real life and in my opinion you need to learn how to ignore annoying ppl. This game needs many fixes for critical bugs and non existent content and changes to block function is in my opinion very low priority. If any.

Number 1, I get and number 2, I can kind of understand (Watch the Lion’s Arch PoI when Josh tries to do the jumping puzzle), but it’s more obnoxious than intimidating.

Number 3 is kind of pushing it. Yeah, I find it a bit weird if I AFK in a random spot and someone comes up 3 inches from me, but its not really intimidating. Just a minor annoyance at worst, and I can AFK in the Hall of Monuments if I want to get away from that.

I should mention, the only end game content in this game is trolling....

I find your comment highly amusing, Groonz.7825 — Exactly ‘where’ did I say that I felt that somebody was really trying to kill me? Really, you must go back and actually read my comment rather than speculating on my observations with silly replies. I’m not going to waste my time defending my comment and ultimately it was aimed at the community for how the community reacts to it is a true indicator of how such actions are perceived.

For some (the minority I’m happy to report) such instances are not considered griefing (and I’m discussing the deliberately TARGETED intimidation, not the incidental or accidental kind) and wherein the majority of the community who have some degree of self-respect and who do not find it amusing to deliberately abuse others to get their kicks, find such actions abusive and have in the past commented to me that something has to be done about the abusers.

But then of course I’m sure the abusers would howl the loudest about it because this proposal if implemented would effectively act to take away their “fun” now would it not?

Deedrick.4372:

I should mention, end game content in this game is us being * trolled *by ArenaNet….

FTFY

lol, I agree. Troll patches with no test servers ftl.

Your method prevents nothing since they are free to carry on versus someone else.

Report and move on is the best answer and the only realistic answer to stop them altogether long term. Programming an individual lockout is almost certainly a nightmare to code for anyway. Dont forget you can also screenshot and email support.

Excellent point, Randulf.7614 but let’s take this to it’s illogical conclusion. If for example they continue on to another person, etc. sooner or later they will grow tired of being the only toon standing there. The psychological message is important (assuming they are smart enough to understand it). Abuse and people vanish and that means there is nobody around to bully. It also creates a situation wherein, if their actions warrant reporting then ArenaNET will receive a flood of reports about that individual (irrespective of avatar) and will notice that they are actively engaged in abuse of other people which comes back to the point of my opening comment.

Belenus.9132:

Excellent point, Randulf.7614 but let’s take this to it’s illogical conclusion. If for example they continue on to another person, etc. sooner or later they will grow tired of being the only toon standing there. The psychological message is important (assuming they are smart enough to understand it). Abuse and people vanish and that means there is nobody around to bully. It also creates a situation wherein, if their actions warrant reporting then ArenaNET will receive a flood of reports about that individual (irrespective of avatar) and will notice that they are actively engaged in abuse of other people which comes back to the point of my opening comment.

how are you going to prove “visual” abuse? there is no rule preventing players standing next to you or using their skills in front of you; and “verbal” abuse is easily countered with block option

I’m sorry but I can only read your idea as shooting moskito with a cannon. Actions required to develop and implement all those restrictions are over to top compared to the “crime” level, especially that you can’t really prove anything despite chat messages.

Well, Beepa Fraps has been pretty good so far. It creates video evidence on demand showing that deliberate actions are being taken which go a tad beyond somebody having a spot of fun! We’ve all experienced abuse and some of us deal with it by ignoring it while others find it intimidating. It is for the gentler game player that much of this causes offense. So yes, can prove it.

Amazing how the griefers flock to these threads to defend their actions.

I’ve fired off my skills in town randomly or just for the heck of it. Not at RPers or people playing instruments to be mean or anything, but you know. Just because.

How would you know if I accidentally stood next to you, or made conscious effort to target your character specifically?

I don’t know what you’ve been dealing with but unless you’re the victim of some kind of malicious online stalking, OP you sound pretty… paranoid.

If you need help dealing with someone like that, if you have screens of the incident, you can send a ticket to Anet and they’ll certainly shut that kind of thing down real quick.

Neural.1824:

Amazing how the griefers flock to these threads to defend their actions.

I would like to know which part of this discussion gave you the right for baseless accusations against people forming their opinions in civilized manner.

Excellent point, CETheLucid.3964 and if you read the opening commenting it will become clear that my beef is with those who deliberately target, not with accidental ‘misfires’ or when fun and games at any large meeting place get out of hand.

I’m immune to that sort of situation. You and persons in that situation have nothing to worry about – but if a person was doing it deliberately, when they would essentially be creating the situation which led to their own demise. Of course, being “blocked” in that fashion they would only become aware of it the moment their target vanished from sight.

IF on the other hand they were not targeting anyone, they would probably not notice that a person had vanished at all … much as you might ignore or not notice a random person teleporting away to go about their business. Same outcome more or less; different mechanic being employed.

Trying to figure out if this is an actual thing or if OP is just too willing to believe that anything done by a player that slightly inconveniences him is done specifically for that purpose.

Hanlon’s Razor?

As for #1, trolls are a serious problem in the various chat channels, especially in PvP. The PvP trolls/elitists/bullies are scaring away players who want to PvP but don’t want to get verbally abused for being new or trying out new builds, new classes, new strategies, etc. Even in the Practice and Unranked Arenas you see the bullies. Step into the PvP lobby for 5 seconds, and you’ll be subjected to kitten jokes, elitists complaining about noobs, racist and sexist statements, etc. The place is toxic. If Anet wants to start cleaning the place up, they need to start there.

Anet needs to do a better job hitting those little kittens with the ban hammer. A 24-hour ban for insulting people, making bigoted statements, and threatening others would make most of the trolls think twice before doing it again. I’d even ask Anet to make a very public notice saying that they take reports of verbal abuse seriously and that players who make serious threats against other players will be banned permanently. Right now when you tell someone to stop being a troll and that you’re going to report them, their response is, “So? Anet won’t do anything about it,” which is sadly true.

As for your #2, Anet needs to better optimize their animations and you need to turn down your graphics settings.

As for #3, I agree with Groonz in that I don’t know what to say because it’s just such an inane complaint.

However, I do like the idea of hiding players’ characters. I would want hiding and blocking to be separate though. I may not want to read the venom that seeps out of their fingers and into the chat box, but I may still need their characters to be visible in-game (like in PvP). And vice versa – I may not want to see them raining down fireballs at Teq to get their friends into the map, but what they have to say in map chat may be useful to know or at least not at all offensive.

We-ell, its a tough one, isn’kitten What it comes down to ultimately is what you feel comfortable with, which is pretty much the best way of putting it. Some folks are not easily intimidated, and some are.

I mean, I have a neighbor whose fourteen-year-old daughter plays GW2 and she is very sheltered. About two weeks ago she was verbally abused in world by some players and it has left her withdrawn and emotionally damaged. I see things like that and ask myself what can be done to assure her that if she starts playing again the same people will not be able to abuse her since they know her (character) name and according to my neighbor at least told her they would target her the next time she came in.

What sort of slime wrapped in human skin does that to another human being? Let alone a child; not that they seemed to know or care.

Belenus.9132:

We-ell, its a tough one, isn’kitten What it comes down to ultimately is what you feel comfortable with, which is pretty much the best way of putting it. Some folks are not easily intimidated, and some are.

I mean, I have a neighbor whose fourteen-year-old daughter plays GW2 and she is very sheltered. About two weeks ago she was verbally abused in world by some players and it has left her withdrawn and emotionally damaged. I see things like that and ask myself what can be done to assure her that if she starts playing again the same people will not be able to abuse her since they know her (character) name and according to my neighbor at least told her they would target her the next time she came in.

What sort of slime wrapped in human skin does that to another human being? Let alone a child; not that they seemed to know or care.

Note: you need thick skin to be on the internet in general

But verbal abuse should not be tolerated besides, anyway.

If a person is completely removed from your screen how would this work in WvW or PvP? Would be a little strange if your small group was attacked by a group that was invisible to some of you. That aside i’d just screen shot, block and move on if the actions of others are annoying or upsetting you.

The players that follow you around then stand over you (had this done to my Asuran by Norns & Charr occasionally) are annoying but not really much you can do about it short of sending a series of screen shots as a complaint. These low level griefers want to elicit a response from you. Their enjoyment feeds from your discomfort so don’t feed them and they’ll soon get bored. Screen shot, block, report and forget. When enough reports are received by ANet for one player from lots of sources then I’m sure something will be done.

If you can be emotionally damaged by a video game... you shouldn’t be playing one. Horrible parents IMO.

Belenus.9132:

Let alone a child; not that they seemed to know or care.

Yes cuz we all know how old everyone is in this game.

Also exactly what Deedrick said.

The parents failed miserably at properly filtering based on what their child can handle.
What next? Putting same “sheltered” girl to play CoD on XBL then complaining about CoD?

Its an utter lack of personal responsibility with regards to their child. Id argue its worth calling local child support for emotional abuse.

I wonder what were the circumstances that led to the abuse? You mentioned you were abused in LA and later you mentioned your neighbour was verbally abused. What facilitated that abuse? In my experience just running around the world playing the game will not get you verbally abused. Mabye you are a member of a dysfunctional guild?

Not trying to discredit those experiences you had. Just curious.

Belenus.9132:

I mean, I have a neighbor whose fourteen-year-old daughter plays GW2 and she is very sheltered. About two weeks ago she was verbally abused in world by some players and it has left her withdrawn and emotionally damaged. I see things like that and ask myself what can be done to assure her that if she starts playing again the same people will not be able to abuse her since they know her (character) name and according to my neighbor at least told her they would target her the next time she came in.

What sort of slime wrapped in human skin does that to another human being? Let alone a child; not that they seemed to know or care.

Well, personally if I had a child that was extremely sensitive emotionally, I would never allow that child to touch a video game, especially one that revolves around the presence of an online player base. Also, it’s not as though people playing this game know every detail about everyone else playing this game, so she wasn’t targeted for being a fourteen year old (unless she literally ran around LA saying she was fourteen, in which case maybe she was targeted by trolls for that). I’m not trying to blame the victim or anything, but some of the responsibility for dealing with these sorts of issues if understanding the environment you’re in. This is the internet. Anonymity is king here, and some people take that to an extreme and don’t mind harassing others. You can either choose to let those people dictate how you play and how you feel (i.e. making posts like this), or you can thicken your skin and move on with your day. Ultimately, you shouldn’t be letting random strangers on the internet get to you emotionally. Take screenshots, report anyone harassing you, and trust that Anet will do something about it. If it’s truly as awful as you say, they will be suspended or banned, which is a better solution than your proposed solution anyway. In the meantime, ignore them and move on with your life. Trolls don’t stick around if they can’t communicate with the person they’re trolling. There is some truth to the phrase “don’t feed the troll.”

Belenus.9132:

. The psychological message is important (assuming they are smart enough to understand it).

The crux of the issue here I’m afraid.

Subtle hints/messages rarely work even more so in th faceless environment of an online world where people feel they can say and do as they wish. The system in place is superior since it ultimately removes them from the game by the creators of the game.

Coding people be invisible to you would also be open to abuse as players end up blocking everyone they see and the game becomes a confusing mess. It’s far better to block, ignore and move on. In life and in game.

godz raiden.2631:

Belenus.9132:

I mean, I have a neighbor whose fourteen-year-old daughter plays GW2 and she is very sheltered. About two weeks ago she was verbally abused in world by some players and it has left her withdrawn and emotionally damaged. I see things like that and ask myself what can be done to assure her that if she starts playing again the same people will not be able to abuse her since they know her (character) name and according to my neighbor at least told her they would target her the next time she came in.

What sort of slime wrapped in human skin does that to another human being? Let alone a child; not that they seemed to know or care.

Well, personally if I had a child that was extremely sensitive emotionally, I would never allow that child to touch a video game, especially one that revolves around the presence of an online player base. Also, it’s not as though people playing this game know every detail about everyone else playing this game, so she wasn’t targeted for being a fourteen year old (unless she literally ran around LA saying she was fourteen, in which case maybe she was targeted by trolls for that). I’m not trying to blame the victim or anything, but some of the responsibility for dealing with these sorts of issues if understanding the environment you’re in. This is the internet. Anonymity is king here, and some people take that to an extreme and don’t mind harassing others. You can either choose to let those people dictate how you play and how you feel (i.e. making posts like this), or you can thicken your skin and move on with your day. Ultimately, you shouldn’t be letting random strangers on the internet get to you emotionally. Take screenshots, report anyone harassing you, and trust that Anet will do something about it. If it’s truly as awful as you say, they will be suspended or banned, which is a better solution than your proposed solution anyway. In the meantime, ignore them and move on with your life. Trolls don’t stick around if they can’t communicate with the person they’re trolling. There is some truth to the phrase “don’t feed the troll.”

In my opinion anet is not to solve parental issues. If the girl is oversensitive it’s parents job to protect their children, choose her games and if she is emotionally unstable take her to the specialist.

I see no point in changing game systems because of one individual.

If i have learnt one thing after years of online gaming (started with quake 3 arena, and that did have a portion of drama ) with hate trolls in game or on a forum. Ignore, block, report. Dont try to reason with them, they feed on the negative attention. Theres no reasoning. It will become naturaly, you grow a thick skin, and enjoy the game without ever looking back at any drama. Btw are you on european or american servers. I havent had any haressment in a long time on european. Must say i dont play explorable dungeons or ranked pvp , thats a big difference i think.

If anything and the troll is really stalking you. This thread feeds said troll.

The troll now knows that you have blocked him, you flee from him, and you are so kitten that you complain on the forums.

If I were him I would have said to myself. “Job well done. successfully and confirmed to be under skin.”

krzygum.4028:

In my opinion anet is not to solve parental issues. If the girl is oversensitive it’s parents job to protect their children, choose her games and if she is emotionally unstable take her to the specialist.

I see no point in changing game systems because of one individual.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. It should be up to Anet, or the Guild Wars 2 community either, to protect particular players in the game. When I’m in game I treat everyone as an equal initially, and assume they have the same capabilities that I do, until they prove otherwise. In my experience, there are some people in this game that are extremely overly sensitive, and will view anything as harassment. I’ve offered advice in a polite way to players before, and I was immediately called a griefer/harasser and flamed for it. I just kick those sorts of players from my parties though. There’s all types of people that play this game, and we can’t be expect to know the details of their personal life that could possibly dictate how they play this game and view other players. So, I agree, we can’t let the emotions of sheltered individuals dictate the game play for the majority of players who aren’t emotionally distraught enough to come to the forums and start threads like this one.

Anet makes money from game sales and when people swipe their credit card in the gem store right? So if a player leaves the game because they’ve been harassed or griefed, Anet loses money. Now tell me why trolling, harassment and griefing don’t carry the highest penalties in the game? Or any MMO that relies on micro-transactions for income?

Take money out of my pocket and you’re kitten ed right you’re gonna catch the ban hammer.

Neural.1824 does have a point. – People who show up on the forums and say “grow thicker skin” are typically the ones that are harassing, bullying and causing trouble in chat. That’s one of the neat things about having your account name and number shown on the forums. Someone being a troll or causing some grief in game? Add them up and then search the forums for posts. Catch them being a hypocrite and then deflate them in front of everyone the next time they post.

Of course it is entirely possible that I see a lot more ‘deviant’ behavior because having reached level eighty a while back (I begin in 2012) and not having an active interest in WvW or PvP I now spend a lot of my time running around the low-level regions casually instructing and helping out newbies and established players who need an extra hand doing things, or simply advising them on how Guild Wars 2 works and how best (given their needs) to get ahead in the game so they can gain the maximum possible enjoyment out of it.

Under those circumstances, and especially in the low-level areas I’m sure you will meet jack-in-the-boxes and toons with shiny new toys to play with who are not entirely sensitive to others needs or careful how they use them and strangely enough I know this and accept it. I’m sure those of you who have traveled will know that you seldom meet griefers outside of the primary cities and starting areas because players who are that deep into Tyria are generally well established and going about their business with no time for such foolishness.

Shivan.9438:

People who show up on the forums and say “grow thicker skin” are typically the ones that are harassing, bullying and causing trouble in chat.

krzygum.4028:

I would like to know which part of this discussion gave you the right for baseless accusations against people forming their opinions in civilized manner.

Sorry but wtf is the OP talking about???

OP, no offense…. but you’ve basically just painted a giant target on your head.

As many others have already suggested, block and move on.

Dwelling on it only makes you an easier target.
…and you making a thread about it only tempts more trolls to tease you.

krzygum.4028:

Shivan.9438:

People who show up on the forums and say “grow thicker skin” are typically the ones that are harassing, bullying and causing trouble in chat.

krzygum.4028:

I would like to know which part of this discussion gave you the right for baseless accusations against people forming their opinions in civilized manner.

funny thing is. Someone with thinner skin would probably see that comment as trolling.

Shivan.9438:

Neural.1824 does have a point. – People who show up on the forums and say “grow thicker skin” are typically the ones that are harassing, bullying and causing trouble in chat.

“Grow thicker skin” is common sense. The internet makes people in general more insensitive about other people’s feelings because there are few if any repercussions for saying something damaging.

Shivan.9438:

That’s one of the neat things about having your account name and number shown on the forums. Someone being a troll or causing some grief in game? Add them up and then search the forums for posts. Catch them being a hypocrite and then deflate them in front of everyone the next time they post.

And isn’t this also harassment? Actively seeking to damage someone’s reputation because they did or said something you didnt like elsewhere?

Just as a side note as I already posted here, this thread seems to confirm my signature.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

Just as a side note as I already posted here, this thread seems to confirm my signature.

+1.

Sad truth of the matter is whatever you are in the dark is what you actually are.

Actual jerks will be jerks on the internet. Social, face-to-face interaction presents a barrier that just isnt there when there’s a computer medium.

That being said, ignorance of that fact is no excuse for lamenting inevitable damage by it. Thick skin or dont internet.

Personal abuse, I get that. Trolling, verbal harassment, sure. Trying to bring a PC down on its knees by firing off a load of effects at once, sure, though I probably won’t ever be personally affected by that. But intimidiation by having a character firing off skills or standing close to your character? I simply don’t see how that could be intimidating in any way.

Here’s the definition in Oxford’s English Dictionary:
“Frighten or overawe (someone), especially in order to make them do what one wants”

How can you be frightened or overawed by pixels being close to other pixels? Someone invading your personal space in real life, sure, but… They can’t do anything to you. Well, they can annoy you, I suppose, but why would that be frightening?

Edit: This isn’t meant as an attack. I simply seek enlightenment.

wait the OP feels intimidated becuase someone stands close or ontop of his toon? Like someone said this insn’t real life and the OP has personal issues that he/she needs to deal with and its clearly not just ingame issue.

What’s so hard changing maps to get away from this person/s?

Here is the problem: ‘just grow a thicker skin’ means that the trolls don’t have to be held responsible for their actions. It says ’it’s okay for people to be jerks, but it is not okay for people to be upset about others being targeted by jerks’.

How is that okay?

I know some person tossing words at you in a MMO chat isn’t very high on the great scale of life’s dangers or injustices. I know life has a lot bigger problems out there. And everyone has to deal with a lot of unnecessary stuff and learn to handle it.

But that doesn’t abdicate the troll from responsibility. Nor does the troll need other people to jump in and protect them (unwittingly or not) by making it the target’s problem and not the troll’s.

And yes yes it is a game. But it’s not. Because these are people. You aren’t interacting with bots. And words from people are not suddenly less powerful because they are typed rather than spoken. And it is horribly naive to think that people who are upset by these things (whether just a little annoyed or horribly offended) are somehow ‘deficient’ people. Every person is affected by by how others treat them, and every person is vulnerable to that. Yes, even you.

It’s a tough, cruel world. And we all need to learn how to deal with that. But why help that cruelty along by pinning the problem onto the target rather than the perpetrator. Why attack the person angry at the troll, rather than the troll itself?

Why are you on the troll’s side?

you seem to have ignored the report part of the Report Block Move on.
That being said

There is no such thing as innocence only degrees of guilt.

Do Not Feed the Trolls. You are practically a walking buffet.

Report ingame. Contact support with additional evidence. Video screenshots etc. You are giving trolls publicity. You are letting them know they are winning. By letting them DICTATE your emotions they have won. Sure they may be punished but they won at their goal. Which is to ruin your fun.

How the person reacts to it is the ULTIMATE way of dictating a trolls behaviour.

Belenus.9132:

I’m big on law and order and well, point taken but ultimately it comes down my believing absolutely in the 11th Commandment which is, “Thou shalt not get away with it.”

lol

Someone is really stretching the meaning of the words “intimidation” and “abuse”. Let’s reserve these kind of words for people who actually suffer, not for virtual characters who have sparklies thrown at them.

Block, report, move on and let anet sort out who to ban.

Unless this is troll in itself. Ive encountered clever ones like this before.

Deedrick.4372:

I should mention, the only end game content in this game is trolling….

This had me laughing for about 20 minutes, so true it is rofl. The effect someone else has on you is measured by how much you allow it to. Human nature cannot be policed and unfortunately we live in a society of unparented, self-entitled children whose only sense of worth is how much they effect others in any way possible.

These are the same kids who tease their older brother until he kicks the crap out of them in order to get any kind of attention at home.