Guild Wars 2

Seems nowadays everyones support. Its become too commonplace.

Definition of support? Anything and Everything that isnt damage.

Support Ranger LFG! (What does that mean, Healing Power + Healing Spring, Search and Rescue?")

Support Warrior Healing Shouts LFG!

Support Engi Heal bombs LFG!

Support Ele, boon sharing LFG!

Support ele, healer LFG!

Support Guard, AH (Which heals yourself, not team) LFG!

Support Necro, Condition>Boon converter LFG

How many more must I list… Its too general a term. Support can mean anything! I find it ridiculous when people say “Support X Class LFG” It means nothing to me. It can mean anything from they are healing, to they are support utlities, to they are tanky and hold aggro, to they drop combo fields… I mean when does the line of support get crossed into another term? Might as well just classify every non zerk build as support because people call everything support.

I must say I have never, ever seen anything like it in the chat. Guess I missed when it became too commonplace.

So uh…. how do you suppose we rectify this problem?

The definition of support is literally: Bear all or part of the weight of; hold up.

The support members of the team hold up the non-support members of the team, aka the damage dealers.

I don’t feel like it’s bad to say that you’re support if that’s what you’re doing.

If you are suggesting we come up with miniature sub-divisions of support, that’s awesome, but ideas?

The irony is theres almost no real support in the game. Other then water staff ele and to some extent staff/wells necro, most classes ability to support others is quite limited.

Most ‘support’ builds are like relying on a Paragon to heal your group instead of a Monk in GW1. Does a little good now and then, but can’t generate large amounts of healing. (Never mind that Paragons look like Monks compared to even the top healing builds in GW2)

I think you got it right.

Support literally means you contribute little damage to the group, and are probably a wasted spot.

If you want to support your team, do as much damage as possible and bring one or two utility skills that either grant boons or remove conditions.

In my opinion, everyone should bring a bit of support to their group no matter what. I don’t want a straight damage dealing selfish player. I want someone who will deal damage but also wisely drop a healing field, a party buff, a cleansing shout, etc. I try to make a point whenever running a dungeon to throw out reflection walls, elixirs, combo fields, and healing rings. If it buffs my whole party that’s a better result than buffing just me. I’d rather keep my allies alive or increase everyone else’s damage by 5% than just mine by 10%.

There shouldn’t be any “support” other than players’ own intention to support. If there are specialized support classes, that means one more step towards trinity.

My sarcasm meter must be on the fritz. It was ticking for a second but now nothing…

wolfshirt.8459:

I think you got it right.

Support literally means you contribute little damage to the group, and are probably a wasted spot.

If you want to support your team, do as much damage as possible and bring one or two utility skills that either grant boons or remove conditions.

I have saved so much repair costs with my revive signets and condition removals trough out runs, trust me parties don’t find me useless. There’s more than one way of playing and if you don’t agree with it, fine, don’t have support in your groups, but please don’t tell us how useless we are when you haven’t been in parties with us.

Well in GW2 every one support each other. Even in other games with define rolls support tend to become both support and dmg or support and tanks. All games are moving to this type of play because every one is tried of waiting on one class showing up to make your pt ready to go.

the moidart.3612:

The irony is theres almost no real support in the game. Other then water staff ele and to some extent staff/wells necro, most classes ability to support others is quite limited.

Most ‘support’ builds are like relying on a Paragon to heal your group instead of a Monk in GW1. Does a little good now and then, but can’t generate large amounts of healing. (Never mind that Paragons look like Monks compared to even the top healing builds in GW2)

Imbagon is a perfect example of good support. They were mostly focused on reducing incoming damage rather than healing. But yeh, I agree.

If you are in a group of 5 supporting builds, who is going to deal the damage? Is it fun to support each other for the 1-2 hours it takes to clear a dungeon with such a party setup?

the moidart.3612:

The irony is theres almost no real support in the game. Other then water staff ele and to some extent staff/wells necro, most classes ability to support others is quite limited.

I disagree. There´s plenty of support to all professions. From Mesmer portals / invisibility, to Guardian´s shouts and aegis / reflections, there are various ways of providing support to a party. Unfortunately, general PvE content content is just too easy, so most people can just faceroll full zerk dps everything.

Konrad.9587:

If you are in a group of 5 supporting builds, who is going to deal the damage? Is it fun to support each other for the 1-2 hours it takes to clear a dungeon with such a party setup?

Support in GW2 does not mean what you think it does.

The best support in this game is to learn how to dodge well. If you have to rely on your teammates to keep you up – you’re doing it wrong.

PearlGore.7419:

Support in GW2 does not mean what you think it does.

I am well aware what is support in GW2; I also know very well what to expect from vast majority of players considering themselves to be support builds.

wolfshirt.8459:

Mirta.5029:

wolfshirt.8459:

I think you got it right.

Support literally means you contribute little damage to the group, and are probably a wasted spot.

If you want to support your team, do as much damage as possible and bring one or two utility skills that either grant boons or remove conditions.

I have saved so much repair costs with my revive signets and condition removals trough out runs, trust me parties don’t find me useless. There’s more than one way of playing and if you don’t agree with it, fine, don’t have support in your groups, but please don’t tell us how useless we are when you haven’t been in parties with us.

I’m always the last man standing.

You’re still useless. :-)

thank you for expressing harsh opinions about players you don’t know in situations that you never experienced. You’re calling me useless for getting the whole group up, for ensuring that others can fight, for constantly taking conditions off them and on me because my health can take it, yeah, totally useless.

Konrad.9587:

If you are in a group of 5 supporting builds, who is going to deal the damage? Is it fun to support each other for the 1-2 hours it takes to clear a dungeon with such a party setup?

people have cleared dungeons in full support groups before, it’s not like in other games where support deals no damage, and no it doesn’t take as long as an hour.

Having tried to play Healer Elementalist and usually only running with good people I know I can safely say I feel I would’ve supported better by doing more damage…

Support isn’t something you build for. It’s something you do. The reason the meaning seems broad is because it is broad. Anytime you do something to keep your party members from dying, or to enable them to do more damage, you are supporting your party. All that AoE Might/Vigor/Fury? That’s support. Guardian spamming AoE Protection/Regen? Support. That Necro that’s keeping Weakness/Vuln/Chill on everything? Yeah, that’s reducing damage taken and increasing damage output. It’s support too.

Oh, and sometimes people heal each other….I guess.

wolfshirt.8459:

I think you got it right.

Support literally means you contribute little damage to the group, and are probably a wasted spot.

If you want to support your team, do as much damage as possible and bring one or two utility skills that either grant boons or remove conditions.

Thanks for telling me how I should play GW2. Don’t expect me to do the same for you though; you deserve much better, such as feeling free to play any way you like, DPS or otherwise.

In short, if a player has fun playing a more supportive role, why should I even care? All is good. It’s his/her character, not mine.

clay.7849:

The best support in this game is to learn how to dodge well. If you have to rely on your teammates to keep you up – you’re doing it wrong.

So people who play “support” don’t know how to dodge? Wearing Berserker’s instantly makes you a “pro” at dodging and Cleric’s armor means you don’t know how to evade?

I agree no one should depend on anyone to survive, though assuming that a player that plays “support” is thus rendered useless is quite the stretch. I love supportive players, as well as playing as one when I do.

This isn’t Math Wars 2. Play what’s fun for you, which may not necessarily be what has the higher “effective damage”.

No offense meant at all-play and let play (as the wise Ventari would teach to the Sylvari: “All things have a right to grow”-basically the true GW2 manifesto.)

Jski.6180:

Well in GW2 every one support each other. Even in other games with define rolls support tend to become both support and dmg or support and tanks. All games are moving to this type of play because every one is tried of waiting on one class showing up to make your pt ready to go.

Thing is that GW2 could have both no wait and noticeable specialization, if the numbers actually made a kitten different on the defense/support side.

But that will require the ability to save builds, and quick&easy swaps between builds.

Then you could pick up anyone with a suitable build for your missing specialization (or talk someone thru how to set up such a build), rather than wait for a specific class/profession to log on.

i was support guardian and when i start doing arah i just get the uck of that and switch to full zerker. now im dishing some damage and helping my party in a better way than a stupid and crapy supporting design we have.

kikittener.9578:

i was support guardian and when i start doing arah i just get the uck of that and switch to full zerker. now im dishing some damage and helping my party in a better way than a stupid and crapy supporting design we have.

Yet many players still find it fun to play-you just didn’t like the playstyle vs DPS, which is fine. That you don’t like the way support works in this game doesn’t mean that a great many other number of players won’t find a way to make it work for them (I know great “support” players, and I also play “support” on occasion.)

Support could be better supported (:P) by the developers, but we will never have too strong support in this game, so that the playstyle isn’t heavily favored or “required” at any content (or at least, I think that’s what the developers were probably thinking.) Even know, with the “stupid and crappy supporting design we have”, many people think that a Guardian is “required” for certain stuff, which is not only untrue but also unfair to many other Professions who would be rejected at a last party slot if said group had no Guardian (I play a Guardian, and oppose this attitude.)

Perhaps direct damage is too strong on the PvE side of things. I clearly don’t have the answer, save for suggesting that other playstyles are made even more attractive, but not so much that they are a necessity for any content (which is the difficult thing to balance.) It will be hard to convince players that think otherwise that there are alternatives to DPS, though, even if other gear and support builds are made quite stronger, IMHO-some people just love DPS style, and won’t accept any alternatives.

I am not anti DPS, btw, but more pro-every-playstyle. Let people gear up as they wish, and don’t criticize them for going Berserker’s, Cleric’s, etc. Everyone is entitled to their own sense of fun.

Konrad.9587:

If you are in a group of 5 supporting builds, who is going to deal the damage? Is it fun to support each other for the 1-2 hours it takes to clear a dungeon with such a party setup?

You’ve got no clue don’t you.

marnick.4305:

Konrad.9587:

If you are in a group of 5 supporting builds, who is going to deal the damage? Is it fun to support each other for the 1-2 hours it takes to clear a dungeon with such a party setup?

You’ve got no clue don’t you.

I do believe the term is hyperbole.

Well for me support is the player which by his role will bring direct advantages to the group.

For example, i have a support warrior focused on longbow and banners for WvW and PvE, with Healing power/boon duration maxed. This can really provide a permanent Regeneration and swiftness boon to the party, and a high amount of Might to everyone. (Including the fire combo field).

Every class can dps, and every class can be support!
/Cheers

Just for the hell of it I went to the wiki to take a second look at the definitions of the combat roles they defined for gw2 and I think it breaks out support fairly well.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Support

• Gives boons
• Removes conditions
• Heals (very little)
• Provides combo fields (meh….)

In essence, providing other players with greater capability than they can do alone.

Ideally I think they wanted us to contribute a little bit of support/control/damage into each build so that as a group you can enhance each other’s weak points, not just one person is running DPS while someone else is control and then another is support. Instead it seems that DPS is king for the most part.

rest of the roles and combat defined for those who care to look
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

Seems to me that the build system is such that you are generally advised to max out 3 stats, 30/20/20. That’s the way the stats on armor and weapons work, etc.

There are also 5 possible types of build orientations in each class, one of which is always Tanky, one of which is always Supporty, three of which are DPSey (depending on where you put your 30).

The result is a game in which anyone can deal respectable damage, while some can deal more-than-respectable. A game in which anyone can support a bit, but some can support a bit better. A game in which anyone can tank a bit, but some can tank better.

What’s not to like?

I’m completely specced for support in my Guardian. Nobody thinks it’s useful, of course. Everyone’s too busy dealing omgwtf damage to notice 15-20 seconds of protection on them, 18 stacks of might, near constant regeneration, tanking the boss while I revive some lolglassy thief or warrior, making some stupid boss deal 10k damage to itself simply from a reflect wall.

Or the fact that aggro mechanics make the bosses / enemies attack me kitten near all the time, making it so all the glassy DPS’ers don’t even NEED to dodge (Most of the time), get downed, heal, or waste time with all those frivolous pleasantries.

Maybe it’s cause I go balls to the wall full support, who knows. And no, I’m not talking “Lol I have a greatsword and AH, it’s time to be a support guardian!” I can still do decent damage with Cleric’s stuff. Symbols heal AND damage, Orb of Light heals AND damages (And then detonate heals and damages again.) Mace final attack heals and damages.

So yeah. I’ve always been a support player, primarily, in RPGs and MMORPGs, and it -can- still be effective in this game. Full PVT gear still gives the same amount of offensive capabilities as Cleric’s. So why shouldn’t I go cleric’s and help teammates out more than myself? Decent damage, great support, it -is- possible. Especially when most of your heals/buffing skills also do damage.

But that’s just a primary guardian speaking. I won’t pretend like support is great for other classes at all. I’ve never had someone convinced I was a waste of a party slot though, and I do let them know that I’m “as support as possible.”

I will agree that if you can kill the enemy faster than it can kill you, that’s absolutely fantastic. I, however, am not much of a risk taker and I don’t wanna get downed because one single misclick. I’ve seen 4 glassy dudes die almost simultaneously because an enemy’s telegraphing animation happened, and then delayed the actual effects of it. They dodged too early and went down. I dodged too early too, but my Aegis caught it and I could revive them while taking the enemy’s non-super-mega-ulti jump or whatever it is.

But that’s just me. I genuinely enjoy supporting others with heals and buffs. I wouldn’t throw the term “Support” around just because you have healing shouts, like some others do. Every fiber of my build is dedicated to supporting, and doing passing damage is just a side effect. That’s why I think it works, at least.

CMF.5461:

Just for the hell of it I went to the wiki to take a second look at the definitions of the combat roles they defined for gw2 and I think it breaks out support fairly well.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Support

• Gives boons
• Removes conditions
• Heals (very little)
• Provides combo fields (meh….)

In essence, providing other players with greater capability than they can do alone.

Ideally I think they wanted us to contribute a little bit of support/control/damage into each build so that as a group you can enhance each other’s weak points, not just one person is running DPS while someone else is control and then another is support. Instead it seems that DPS is king for the most part.

rest of the roles and combat defined for those who care to look
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

This is what I think too however DPS has taken a greater role simply because it’s the only side that scales the best state wise. I think the problem lies in the attempt to do away with roles Anet were afraid to inadvertently creating those roles as specializations. On the one hand we have everyone playing DPS or hybrids with a few specializing in other areas: CC, support, anchor, etc. On the other hand the LFGs would revert to the same ol’ way of doing things “LF 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 DPS.”

Anet really needs to focus on looking into those other specializations and letting them grow as roles but they tip toe around it because really who wants to be constantly CC’d until they die? Also with so many dungeon bosses being ‘defiant’ and resisting CC skills how much does a player really bring to the fight if half their skills are useless?

One thing to keep in mind is that PVE and PVP is joined at the hip, and the first question that seems to come up during a Guru video chat is bunkers. And defense/support is vital to bunker. As long as ANet and the SPVP hardcore wants to see less bunkers, support side of the equation will have lesser effectiveness.

projectcedric.6951:

There shouldn’t be any “support” other than players’ own intention to support. If there are specialized support classes, that means one more step towards trinity.

thats actually a good thing in my eyes. I understand people not wanting group requirements, but we do need roles in a dungeon beyond everyone DPS for dungeons to ever become more challenging . As someone else linked the goal is to have 3 roles, Control,support, and damage. Just like the other poster mentioned the goal was to have everyone bring a little of all of them rather then someone being decked out in one. Problem with this is damage has been the proven way to handle anything, Support in some aspects is restricted by cooldowns and others is stats that simply arnt as valuable . Control is completed resitrcted by cooldowns.

Perhaps we need a “haste” stat

digiowl.9620:

One thing to keep in mind is that PVE and PVP is joined at the hip, and the first question that seems to come up during a Guru video chat is bunkers. And defense/support is vital to bunker. As long as ANet and the SPVP hardcore wants to see less bunkers, support side of the equation will have lesser effectiveness.

Not really , wasnt there a post a week or two ago going over how they are making changes to skills so they have separate values in PvE and PvP and that its done already just on a lesser scale.

Star Ace.5207:

clay.7849:

The best support in this game is to learn how to dodge well. If you have to rely on your teammates to keep you up – you’re doing it wrong.

So people who play “support” don’t know how to dodge? Wearing Berserker’s instantly makes you a “pro” at dodging and Cleric’s armor means you don’t know how to evade?

I agree no one should depend on anyone to survive, though assuming that a player that plays “support” is thus rendered useless is quite the stretch. I love supportive players, as well as playing as one when I do.

This isn’t Math Wars 2. Play what’s fun for you, which may not necessarily be what has the higher “effective damage”.

No offense meant at all-play and let play (as the wise Ventari would teach to the Sylvari: “All things have a right to grow”-basically the true GW2 manifesto.)

I think you missed the point of my post. But thank you for the typical ad hominems and strawmans that are typical of forum goers and apologists.

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. Good dodging skills will trump the advantage of any support character to the point where that support character in unnecessary and is less efficient to helping with content.

Of course, if you feel the need to play a way that is less efficient – that is fine. No one is saying that you have to play the best way possible. Although, I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

clay.7849:

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?

So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?

As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?

So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?

As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Healing is not really support… since the purpose of support is to cover all the things that aren’t directly about ‘damage’…

However, it’s really hard to make a healing class in this game without dipping heavily into support abilties… healing is very weak for most classes and kind of weak for the few classes that can manage to pull it off…

Basically, it’s sort of a problem with the game that everything comes down to DPS classes vs non-DPS classes..not a problem with the players so much.

I consider Support anything that is done TO your TEAM by:

• mitigating damage received (including vigor and reflect)
• increasing damage given

I consider Control anything done to ENEMIES that:

• Decreases damage done by enemies directly (weakness)
• Decreases damage done by enemies indirectly (stun and CC)
• Increase damage done TO enemies (vulnerability)

Most builds have some inherent support or control, but I would only consider builds focused on those specific roles as support or control builds.

I definitely like seeing more people enjoying support roles, though

Would only like to say one thing –
There is no reason for guards to go full support in PvE – you are nothing but a hinderance to the team.

You can still go Knight/Ruby set with zerk weapons and support through healing circles, altruistic, utilities and right usage of your weapons.

I’m sick and tired of seeing full support guards who bring down the dps to such pathetic levels, I love my guardian and reluctant of having other guards join my team because of the above.

It’s philosophical but I think you kind of have to put crowd control and control into a support bucket.

For example, are you stunning that person to prevent them from doing damage, or so your team can do more damage to them, or maybe both? Totally depends on the situation.

If you dump anything that is not healing or damage into a support bucket, though, you can avoid philosophy and just go kill stuff….

Zosk.5609:

Healing is not really support… since the purpose of support is to cover all the things that aren’t directly about ‘damage’…

However, it’s really hard to make a healing class in this game without dipping heavily into support abilties… healing is very weak for most classes and kind of weak for the few classes that can manage to pull it off…

Basically, it’s sort of a problem with the game that everything comes down to DPS classes vs non-DPS classes..not a problem with the players so much.

This exactly. Although this is really an inevitable consequence of making a game by trying to make every class equally viable, yet different.

Sure, there are some things that different classes do well. Mesmers are only really useful because they have Time Warp to increase DPS on bosses and portal to help skip content.

But, on a whole, by trying to make every class equally viable, you must reduce content to be beatable by the only common thing that all classes can do – which is damage.

I never see people identify themselves as support in their lfgs

clay.7849:

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.

If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.

If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

clay.7849:

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

Fine, I’ll bite:

clay

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary.

If something is unneccesary, then per definition it’s worthless.

clay.7849:

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?

So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?

As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Hello, Clay, not everybody cares about argument stuff. I hate arguments in the first place, and the strawman stuff is thrown all over the place on all types of forums as an avoidance tactics. “You suck at debating, you used a strawman!” You know what, I hate debating, and am quite rational nonetheless. I don’t care about winning debates or proving who’s right or wrong (it’s a personality thing, I Just don’t care, therefore had no issue to use a “strawman” to counter your position-was basically stating what I believe more than trying to debate with you, whether you hate it or not.)

The fact still stands that it seems your position is playing support is “the obviously inferior choice” in your own words, which is what many of us oppose. What is a fact to you isn’t a fact for everybody else. If I want to play a supposedly “inferior” spec, just leave us alone, and don’t belittle us by stating that it’s inferior just because you wouldn’t use the stuff/build yourself. People get passionate and invoke “strawmans” just because it’s not nice to tell someone that what they do is inferior than what you do, just because you are honestly convinced that what you do is “the best”-it may not be the best for someone else, though.

That’s all, it’s not about debates, strawmans, or being wrong or right. It’s just OK for players to play whichever way they want, even if you would hate to play in certain ways yourself whatever reasons (be it math, “efficiency”, etc.) I certainly won’t tell you that “full DPS” is bad for you if that is what you like, but you do not need to apologize for your choice by saying every other choice is inferior.

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

Fine, I’ll bite:

clay

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary.

If something is unneccesary, then per definition it’s worthless.

That is not true at all.

You know what’s necessary for life? Food, shelter and clothing.

Do you think that everything else is worthless?

clay.7849:

That is not true at all.

You know what’s necessary for life? Food, shelter and clothing.

Do you think that everything else is worthless?

Who is using strawmen now? You can state for a fact that breathable air is also neccesary for life, yet by your way of phrasing that would equal support as it isn’t listed as neccesary. Yet I wouldn’t go without it, and I imagine neither would you.

Now, if you were to argue that a player going for nothing but support, and no dps at all…then I could agree that he weren’t truly neccesary. But as it stands now, support is a natural part of gameplay. When I lay down a fire field for damage, I also open up the possibility for combos that cause burning. Hence I’m supporting my party’s damage abilities WHILE playing as a dps. That’s how support really works. It’s not like GW1 where you’re either a healer or you’re not.

Star Ace.5207:

clay.7849:

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

The point is that support in this game is inefficient and, therefore, unnecessary. I would point out that it is a shame that the PvE content in this game is such that it doesn’t provide an interesting reason to use support classes.

So basically what you’re saying is that anyon who chooses to focus on supplying the party with boons first, damage second, is a dead weight?

So the added healing that lets you stay in the fight longer to deal more damage is a waste? The high number of might stacks and fury that can add up to 70% to your damage output are a waste? 25 stack vulnerability do nothing? Snares are useless?

As a staff elementalist, I prefer to every 45 seconds or so stop mindlessly spamming fireballs to setup my skills for perma chill on the dungeon boss. But I suppose the 5 seconds of dealing less damage are wasted for you. Even if it does mean you now have to dodge those big spikes just 1/3 of the time now.

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Hello, Clay, not everybody cares about argument stuff. I hate arguments in the first place, and the strawman stuff is thrown all over the place on all types of forums as an avoidance tactics. “You suck at debating, you used a strawman!” You know what, I hate debating, and am quite rational nonetheless. I don’t care about winning debates or proving who’s right or wrong (it’s a personality thing, I Just don’t care, therefore had no issue to use a “strawman” to counter your position-was basically stating what I believe more than trying to debate with you, whether you hate it or not.)

The fact still stands that it seems your position is playing support is “the obviously inferior choice” in your own words, which is what many of us oppose. What is a fact to you isn’t a fact for everybody else. If I want to play a supposedly “inferior” spec, just leave us alone, and don’t belittle us by stating that it’s inferior just because you wouldn’t use the stuff/build yourself. People get passionate and invoke “strawmans” just because it’s not nice to tell someone that what they do is inferior than what you do, just because you are honestly convinced that what you do is “the best”-it may not be the best for someone else, though.

That’s all, it’s not about debates, strawmans, or being wrong or right. It’s just OK for players to play whichever way they want, even if you would hate to play in certain ways yourself whatever reasons (be it math, “efficiency”, etc.) I certainly won’t tell you that “full DPS” is bad for you if that is what you like, but you do not need to apologize for your choice by saying every other choice is inferior.

Do yourself a favor and look up the definition of what a straw man argument is.

And, it is a fact that every other choice other than damage and good dodging is inferior – just like trying to use a knife to substitute a flathead screwdriver is inferior.

It’s not a wrong choice – it just doesn’t do the job as well. You can play however you like.

I guess the “you’re doing it wrong” is the part you disliked. I am sorry about that. That bit was really directed at ANet for my particular distaste with the fact that support isn’t as effective as other things in the game. I would very much like to see support and conditions and healing and interrupts, etc. be a part of interesting choices we can make – along with DPS – to beat content. However, while you can use these things – it is the fact that they aren’t as useful that makes them inherently uninteresting choices.