Guild Wars 2

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

clay.7849:

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.

If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

your oversimplifying here, truth is support isnt just healing, its also blinding enemies, using control at the right time, enemy placement, as well as offensive buffs.
dodge means you must stop doing damage for 3 seconds, Blind can mean you can continue to DPS, reflect/absorb projectiles can do the same. Mesmer reflecting might and fury is support.
The honest truth is support is powerful, its just a playstyle most teams have not developed, While people have picked one group composition and figured out how to maximize its effectiveness, most people have not done the same with more complex team set ups.

The reason I argue here at the moment is because I strongly dislike people who argue debating techniques instead of coming up with actual arguments. It’s often because they have none.

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

That is not true at all.

You know what’s necessary for life? Food, shelter and clothing.

Do you think that everything else is worthless?

Who is using strawmen now? You can state for a fact that breathable air is also neccesary for life, yet by your way of phrasing that would equal support as it isn’t listed as neccesary. Yet I wouldn’t go without it, and I imagine neither would you.

Now, if you were to argue that a player going for nothing but support, and no dps at all…then I could agree that he weren’t truly neccesary. But as it stands now, support is a natural part of gameplay. When I lay down a fire field for damage, I also open up the possibility for combos that cause burning. Hence I’m supporting my party’s damage abilities WHILE playing as a dps. That’s how support really works. It’s not like GW1 where you’re either a healer or you’re not.

I don’t even know what you are saying. You said that things that aren’t useful are worthless. I merely disagreed using a pretty relevant argument. You really need to look up what straw man means if you think what I provided as an counter-argument was a straw man.

Maybe, you should rethink your statement that “everything that is unnecessary is useless.”

ThiBash.5634:

The reason I argue here at the moment is because I strongly dislike people who argue debating techniques instead of coming up with actual arguments. It’s often because they have none.

So, basically, you like using logical fallacies and hate when people call you out on it? Good one!

clay.7849:

However, while you can use these things – it is the fact that they aren’t as useful that makes them inherently uninteresting choices.

But so many players make support work for them and their groups, so that negates the argument that DPS must always be “the best choice.” In short, full DPS is the best choice for some players, not for everybody. I have nothing against DPS, but yes against GW2 is all DPS role" preachers, because it’s not only wrong, but perpetuates the myth among people that don’t know any better. DPS is right for many, but may be an horrible choice for someone else that just hates what it’s all about-we should be OK with that rather than enforce the way we perceive the game on them.

(I.E. as of now, support isn’t interesting to you at all, but to many players it still is, even in its current state, so that’s why saying “DPS is always better” is offensive to they way they prefer to play the game… never mind that some players may go full DPS at one time, full support at others depending on build and character.)

phys.7689:

clay.7849:

ThiBash.5634:

clay.7849:

Textbook example of a straw man argument. Nice one!

If you are going to use logical fallacies to argue, there is no point in trying to have a meaningful discussion with you, is there?

Your original statement dismissed all reasons WHY support would be worthless, you just claimed it based on your own opinion. You then responded to my arguments with the above statement which was again void of arguments to support your case.

If you like damage more than support, fine. But claiming it is worthless without backing up that claim isn’t gonna win you any support.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against those words. Where did I say support was worthless?

See, you are arguing against something I never said. I said that support, as a whole, is less effective than straight DPS provided that DPS can dodge effectively.

That, my friend, is a true statement – as it relates to being the most effective in a PvE encounter.

I never said that support is useless, it just isn’t as useful as constant direct damage and good dodging.

your oversimplifying here, truth is support isnt just healing, its also blinding enemies, using control at the right time, enemy placement, as well as offensive buffs.
dodge means you must stop doing damage for 3 seconds, Blind can mean you can continue to DPS, reflect/absorb projectiles can do the same. Mesmer reflecting might and fury is support.
The honest truth is support is powerful, its just a playstyle most teams have not developed, While people have picked one group composition and figured out how to maximize its effectiveness, most people have not done the same with more complex team set ups.

How is taking the time to blind something any different than taking the time to dodge?

Also, dodging doesn’t take 3 seconds.

Clay my good man…I’ve given you several arguments why support isn’t inferior to dps and yet all you do is trying to discredit me by pointing out flaws in my discussion style.

If you come up with any good arguments for the actual discussion, let me know and I’ll get back here. As for the whole debating rules discussion, if it makes you happy, you win ok?

Well good luck arguing against me guys. I’m out.

I am not trying to say you shouldn’t use support. I am merely pointing out that it is as fact that it is less effective.

If you get ego-hurt by that fact, then maybe you should reevaluate how much importance you put into things said on forums.

Good luck arguing amongst yourselves.

clay.7849:

I am not trying to say you shouldn’t use support. I am merely pointing out that it is as fact that it is less effective.

By saying support isn’t as effective as DPS (what you like and use), you are basically stating that your choice is the superior one, therefore others are not “optimizing” their build as well as you have.

That’s all, it’s not about arguments, logical fallacies, “proving you wrong” for its own sake, and the like, which I never cared about in the first place. If anything, I just want the readers to think through what the implications are for the things they say.

And in the end, you are far from the only one that think “DPS is superior”, so I am not singling you out or making it personal. I just hope the number of such players dwindles down so more people accept the possibility that other people (perhaps even themselves) can be effective doing something else other than full DPS on GW2.

I know you wish support was “more viable”, or comparable to DPS, which is your preferred playstyle, but so many people still play great supportive builds, and I hate it when someone even hints that they are not using their character “as effectively” just because they didn’t go full DPS.

Take care, and have a good day-not worth getting upset over something not worth your time. I don’t think we’ll ever agree on this, and that’s fine.

Star Ace.5207:

I know you wish support was “more viable”, or comparable to DPS, which is your preferred playstyle, but so many people still play great supportive builds, and I hate it when someone even hints that they are not using their character “as effectively” just because they didn’t go full DPS.

I think this debate got a little derailed here based on the wrong focus. Even if it irritates and/or upsets, you and other support players must come to terms with this: Regardless of preferred playstyles there are more effective playstyles than others and are reinforced by gameplay mechanics.

Consider these few things from gameplay:
1. Power x Crit % x Crit damage x % damage scales incredibly well and better than any other stat
2. Conditions have a 25 stack limit causing any other stacks of condition to be null/voided.
3. Dodge correctly negates all single target damage, reduces and/or negates aoe/condition damage (i.e. dodging correctly can possibly allow for no damage in any situation)
4. CCs are short and on long CDs. Mobs can/have ‘Defiance’ stats which negate any and all CC and cannot be stripped from them.
5. PvP and PvE are connected if loosely. Therefore changes made to PvE effect PvP and vise-versa (Although Anet has said they are looking to help separate them more).
6. There are no traditional roles therefore Anet is purposely avoiding allowing any class to go full support/tank with the exception of full DPS i.e. GC

When it’s said Zerker > Support it’s only because the game reinforces this through gameplay and not ideals. Damage has no cap and has a full spectrum so someone can go DPS all the way but doesn’t allow for full support in any direction (condition, healing, CC, boon strip) that doesn’t run into a limitation/cap/non applicable situations or defense (toughness does not scale as well as power does). However this is not to say that support cannot be done just that it’s got a lot more blocks that it can hit before becoming ineffective.

Now ideally the situation would be like my current team composition where each of us bring some support (a team skill i.e. fields, boon share, shouts etc) while some focusing on more specialized roles (damage, healing, boons, cc, etc.). However that does not work with every class (warriors are better for dps, engis for cc, eles for healing etc), requires coordination and practice, and doesn’t work for every situation.

The thing is that until gameplay changes support will never be equal to or greater than damage. That is what we need to continuously nag Anet to fix before trying to change the mentality of the community. Support roles need a lot of love but has a long way to go and I think that those of us who stick with it through future changes will find ourselves more skilled than pure DPS.

Yargesh.4965:

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

Those that really hate just walk away. The ones that complain overall like it but find rough edges that annoy them to a great or lesser degree, and hope to see them improved so that the game can become even better.

RoChan.1926:

I think this debate got a little derailed here based on the wrong focus. Even if it irritates and/or upsets, you and other support players must come to terms with this: Regardless of preferred playstyles there are more effective playstyles than others and are reinforced by gameplay mechanics. Support roles need a lot of love but has a long way to go and I think that those of us who stick with it through future changes will find ourselves more skilled than pure DPS.

But is there such a thing as ‘just dps’ or ‘full support’? If you take the elementalist for example, each fire field they cast to deal damage also supports their team by allowing their finishers to cause burning. An attack that also causes vulnerability supports the team by allowing the others to do more damage as well. The same goes for many things: often it’s a side effect of dealing damage. And even defensive side effects can reduce the pressure on glass cannons to give them more room to concentrate on dealing said damage.

The bottom line is that I feel that there’s no such thing as a build that’s only dps, just like there are no full healer builds. Each character is a combination of things and dismissing support in favor of damage is just cutting yourself short of your full potential. Especially as not all dps comes directly from dps skills (like crippling a fleeing target so you can hit it more often for example).

digiowl.9620:

Yargesh.4965:

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

Those that really hate just walk away. The ones that complain overall like it but find rough edges that annoy them to a great or lesser degree, and hope to see them improved so that the game can become even better.

So a quote like “ArenaNet dug their own grave when they turned their backs on much of the GW1 community.” is from someone that wants to improve the game?

Yargesh.4965:

digiowl.9620:

Yargesh.4965:

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

Those that really hate just walk away. The ones that complain overall like it but find rough edges that annoy them to a great or lesser degree, and hope to see them improved so that the game can become even better.

So a quote like “ArenaNet dug their own grave when they turned their backs on much of the GW1 community.” is from someone that wants to improve the game?

Yes actually, quite a bit of information in that sentence. He is trying to voice to Anet that unless they return to their promises they made during development, the game will continue to hemorrhage players.

By definition it’s a helpful response because it advises them that if things do not change, it will get worse.

Which player hemorage?

Aeonblade.8709:

Yargesh.4965:

digiowl.9620:

Yargesh.4965:

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

Those that really hate just walk away. The ones that complain overall like it but find rough edges that annoy them to a great or lesser degree, and hope to see them improved so that the game can become even better.

So a quote like “ArenaNet dug their own grave when they turned their backs on much of the GW1 community.” is from someone that wants to improve the game?

Yes actually, quite a bit of information in that sentence. He is trying to voice to Anet that unless they return to their promises they made during development, the game will continue to hemorrhage players.

By definition it’s a helpful response because it advises them that if things do not change, it will get worse.

Yargesh.4965:

Which player hemorage?

Aeonblade.8709:

Yargesh.4965:

digiowl.9620:

Yargesh.4965:

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

Those that really hate just walk away. The ones that complain overall like it but find rough edges that annoy them to a great or lesser degree, and hope to see them improved so that the game can become even better.

So a quote like “ArenaNet dug their own grave when they turned their backs on much of the GW1 community.” is from someone that wants to improve the game?

Yes actually, quite a bit of information in that sentence. He is trying to voice to Anet that unless they return to their promises they made during development, the game will continue to hemorrhage players.

By definition it’s a helpful response because it advises them that if things do not change, it will get worse.

Maybe hemorrhage was a poor word. Slowly lose maybe is more appropriate. WvW will continue to decline until it is properly updated, luckily the last patch breathed life back into it with the culling fix.

As far as PvE goes, a lot of people who play PvE on my friends list don’t even log on at this time, so I guess having Fractals…and…F&F….and…Fractals doesnt work.

sPvP died about 2 months ago. There was a small funeral.

Ok, no game has or will hold my attention for more than 2-3 years. There have been great games that I just cannot play, but that is my choice. To rail at a game and say they have dug their own grave is to me pointless and thus the masochism aspect that I do not understand.

Aeonblade.8709:

Yargesh.4965:

Which player hemorage?

Aeonblade.8709:

Yargesh.4965:

digiowl.9620:

Yargesh.4965:

Why people who hate a game play or complain about playing is beyond me. Masochism is fun?

Those that really hate just walk away. The ones that complain overall like it but find rough edges that annoy them to a great or lesser degree, and hope to see them improved so that the game can become even better.

So a quote like “ArenaNet dug their own grave when they turned their backs on much of the GW1 community.” is from someone that wants to improve the game?

Yes actually, quite a bit of information in that sentence. He is trying to voice to Anet that unless they return to their promises they made during development, the game will continue to hemorrhage players.

By definition it’s a helpful response because it advises them that if things do not change, it will get worse.

Maybe hemorrhage was a poor word. Slowly lose maybe is more appropriate. WvW will continue to decline until it is properly updated, luckily the last patch breathed life back into it with the culling fix.

As far as PvE goes, a lot of people who play PvE on my friends list don’t even log on at this time, so I guess having Fractals…and…F&F….and…Fractals doesnt work.

sPvP died about 2 months ago. There was a small funeral.

digiowl.9620:

Jski.6180:

Well in GW2 every one support each other. Even in other games with define rolls support tend to become both support and dmg or support and tanks. All games are moving to this type of play because every one is tried of waiting on one class showing up to make your pt ready to go.

Thing is that GW2 could have both no wait and noticeable specialization, if the numbers actually made a kitten different on the defense/support side.

But that will require the ability to save builds, and quick&easy swaps between builds.

Then you could pick up anyone with a suitable build for your missing specialization (or talk someone thru how to set up such a build), rather than wait for a specific class/profession to log on.

What the different between a Guardian and ele support? Guardian are def support and ele are offensive support. It does make a big different how your pt plays if you have one or the other. Its the fury boon that spates these 2 classes for support. You can even come at this from zone control vs mobile support. Where a Guardian can contort where ppl stand where the mobs can and cant go walls lines and shields. Where say an ele has no ways of doing any thing like this so they at best must keep moving to cover every one with the boons.

You badly need to get out of the old idea of what a support is most games are moving away from it.

I love how there are threads like this: “too many are playing support roles”, then there are also threads like “why is glass cannon berserkers the only style people play anymore?”

It seems that the support mindset is infinitely more useful than any support traits or gear in GW2.

Any spec can support the party, but they have to want to help out if someone gets agro they can’t shake, pretty much every weapon has something that can help out, and if not there’s usually space for a supportive utility.

Shame really.

ThiBash.5634:

RoChan.1926:

I think this debate got a little derailed here based on the wrong focus. Even if it irritates and/or upsets, you and other support players must come to terms with this: Regardless of preferred playstyles there are more effective playstyles than others and are reinforced by gameplay mechanics. Support roles need a lot of love but has a long way to go and I think that those of us who stick with it through future changes will find ourselves more skilled than pure DPS.

But is there such a thing as ‘just dps’ or ‘full support’? If you take the elementalist for example, each fire field they cast to deal damage also supports their team by allowing their finishers to cause burning. An attack that also causes vulnerability supports the team by allowing the others to do more damage as well. The same goes for many things: often it’s a side effect of dealing damage. And even defensive side effects can reduce the pressure on glass cannons to give them more room to concentrate on dealing said damage.

The bottom line is that I feel that there’s no such thing as a build that’s only dps, just like there are no full healer builds. Each character is a combination of things and dismissing support in favor of damage is just cutting yourself short of your full potential. Especially as not all dps comes directly from dps skills (like crippling a fleeing target so you can hit it more often for example).

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Support
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage

No.

Damage > support because offensive stats are literally the only thing that scales well in this game.

RoChan.1926:

ThiBash.5634:

But is there such a thing as ‘just dps’ or ‘full support’? If you take the elementalist for example, each fire field they cast to deal damage also supports their team by allowing their finishers to cause burning. An attack that also causes vulnerability supports the team by allowing the others to do more damage as well. The same goes for many things: often it’s a side effect of dealing damage. And even defensive side effects can reduce the pressure on glass cannons to give them more room to concentrate on dealing said damage.

The bottom line is that I feel that there’s no such thing as a build that’s only dps, just like there are no full healer builds. Each character is a combination of things and dismissing support in favor of damage is just cutting yourself short of your full potential. Especially as not all dps comes directly from dps skills (like crippling a fleeing target so you can hit it more often for example).

No.

No as in ‘no there isn’t’ or ‘no you’re wrong’?

RoChan.1926:

Star Ace.5207:

I know you wish support was “more viable”, or comparable to DPS, which is your preferred playstyle, but so many people still play great supportive builds, and I hate it when someone even hints that they are not using their character “as effectively” just because they didn’t go full DPS.

I think this debate got a little derailed here based on the wrong focus. Even if it irritates and/or upsets, you and other support players must come to terms with this: Regardless of preferred playstyles there are more effective playstyles than others and are reinforced by gameplay mechanics.

Consider these few things from gameplay:
1. Power x Crit % x Crit damage x % damage scales incredibly well and better than any other stat
2. Conditions have a 25 stack limit causing any other stacks of condition to be null/voided.
3. Dodge correctly negates all single target damage, reduces and/or negates aoe/condition damage (i.e. dodging correctly can possibly allow for no damage in any situation)
4. CCs are short and on long CDs. Mobs can/have ‘Defiance’ stats which negate any and all CC and cannot be stripped from them.
5. PvP and PvE are connected if loosely. Therefore changes made to PvE effect PvP and vise-versa (Although Anet has said they are looking to help separate them more).
6. There are no traditional roles therefore Anet is purposely avoiding allowing any class to go full support/tank with the exception of full DPS i.e. GC

When it’s said Zerker > Support it’s only because the game reinforces this through gameplay and not ideals. Damage has no cap and has a full spectrum so someone can go DPS all the way but doesn’t allow for full support in any direction (condition, healing, CC, boon strip) that doesn’t run into a limitation/cap/non applicable situations or defense (toughness does not scale as well as power does). However this is not to say that support cannot be done just that it’s got a lot more blocks that it can hit before becoming ineffective.

Now ideally the situation would be like my current team composition where each of us bring some support (a team skill i.e. fields, boon share, shouts etc) while some focusing on more specialized roles (damage, healing, boons, cc, etc.). However that does not work with every class (warriors are better for dps, engis for cc, eles for healing etc), requires coordination and practice, and doesn’t work for every situation.

The thing is that until gameplay changes support will never be equal to or greater than damage. That is what we need to continuously nag Anet to fix before trying to change the mentality of the community. Support roles need a lot of love but has a long way to go and I think that those of us who stick with it through future changes will find ourselves more skilled than pure DPS.

Great post.

ThiBash.5634:

RoChan.1926:

ThiBash.5634:

But is there such a thing as ‘just dps’ or ‘full support’? If you take the elementalist for example, each fire field they cast to deal damage also supports their team by allowing their finishers to cause burning. An attack that also causes vulnerability supports the team by allowing the others to do more damage as well. The same goes for many things: often it’s a side effect of dealing damage. And even defensive side effects can reduce the pressure on glass cannons to give them more room to concentrate on dealing said damage.

The bottom line is that I feel that there’s no such thing as a build that’s only dps, just like there are no full healer builds. Each character is a combination of things and dismissing support in favor of damage is just cutting yourself short of your full potential. Especially as not all dps comes directly from dps skills (like crippling a fleeing target so you can hit it more often for example).

No.

No as in ‘no there isn’t’ or ‘no you’re wrong’?

No as in I will not debate over a transcendental argument. There are 3 roles in the game thus the three links if you want to debate if there is or isn’t full DPS say so and bring points as to why this is but don’t frame up the discussion with your first paragraph.

I’ve played full support for the longest time since beta and launch. These days, I run a support build but with Zerk gear all across.

I won’t try to convince you, but in our guild’s experience of tank and healer players from WoW and whatnot, I will tell you that a high DPS build contributes more in the current “meta” of GW2.

It isn’t that support is not “effective”, but there isn’t any content that requires those roles of support or control. There are dungeon events that are DPS checks, so by contributing mediocre DPS a full support character is a liability.

You don’t need to build full support to provide enough support to make a difference (eg, my build can pump out 25 Might and sustain it around 22ish on the party), and I still hit for 3k average.

Until the meta changes, going full support is not something I would recommend anyone.

molepunch.5673:

I’ve played full support for the longest time since beta and launch. These days, I run a support build but with Zerk gear all across.

I won’t try to convince you, but in our guild’s experience of tank and healer players from WoW and whatnot, I will tell you that a high DPS build contributes more in the current “meta” of GW2.

It isn’t that support is not “effective”, but there isn’t any content that requires those roles of support or control. There are dungeon events that are DPS checks, so by contributing mediocre DPS a full support character is a liability.

You don’t need to build full support to provide enough support to make a difference (eg, my build can pump out 25 Might and sustain it around 22ish on the party), and I still hit for 3k average.

Until the meta changes, going full support is not something I would recommend anyone.

What if you don’t care about a meta? Just play anyway you want I guess? That’s my point. There’s no need to always go for what’s supposedly more effective, especially if that most effective build/spec is not fun for you.

That said, I have no qualms about people going for metas, as long as they don’t tell people that don’t that “they are playing it wrong” just because they go for what’s more “effective.” In short, never call what others use “worthless” even if it’s “worthless” personally to you (this isn’t referring to yourself, though.)

All of those “DPS check events” on Dungeons, etc. should be changed, quite honestly. And at this point, I really doubt that even improving CC, etc. will change people’s minds that GW2 is about DPS-it’s too ingrained on the masses by now.

Carry on with “the meta”, though, it is not my intention to say that “you are wrong”, but more that I wish people’s desire to play whichever way they please is respected, as was the original plan (I honestly doubt ANet wanted everybody to use-or “graduate to”-Berserker’s gear, for instance, but more that people chose builds tailored to their playstyle, therefore the variety of gear available)

Star Ace.5207:

molepunch.5673:

I’ve played full support for the longest time since beta and launch. These days, I run a support build but with Zerk gear all across.

I won’t try to convince you, but in our guild’s experience of tank and healer players from WoW and whatnot, I will tell you that a high DPS build contributes more in the current “meta” of GW2.

It isn’t that support is not “effective”, but there isn’t any content that requires those roles of support or control. There are dungeon events that are DPS checks, so by contributing mediocre DPS a full support character is a liability.

You don’t need to build full support to provide enough support to make a difference (eg, my build can pump out 25 Might and sustain it around 22ish on the party), and I still hit for 3k average.

Until the meta changes, going full support is not something I would recommend anyone.

What if you don’t care about a meta? Just play anyway you want I guess? That’s my point. There’s no need to always go for what’s supposedly more effective, especially if that most effective build/spec is not fun for you.

That said, I have no qualms about people going for metas, as long as they don’t tell people that don’t that “they are playing it wrong” just because they go for what’s more “effective.” In short, never call what others use “worthless” even if it’s “worthless” personally to you (this isn’t referring to yourself, though.)

All of those “DPS check events” on Dungeons, etc. should be changed, quite honestly. And at this point, I really doubt that even improving CC, etc. will change people’s minds that GW2 is about DPS-it’s too ingrained on the masses by now.

Carry on with “the meta”, though, it is not my intention to say that “you are wrong”, but more that I wish people’s desire to play whichever way they please is respected, as was the original plan (I honestly doubt ANet wanted everybody to use-or “graduate to”-Berserker’s gear, for instance, but more that people chose builds tailored to their playstyle, therefore the variety of gear available)

I’m not sure I personally find it fun to play a “tanky” character when it clearly isn’t contributing as much as my other DPS focused build. You can’t heal lag-downs and you can’t heal someone who is out of endurance and just ate a one-shot. I have stacked Toughness up the wazoo and I still get ignored on a lot of fights. As far as I can see, party healing is to counter auto-attacks and uncleansed condition damage, or to help someone who messed up a little, and nothing more. Trying to stick to a Trinity ideal of gameplay in GW2 group dynamics is futile.

Some people find it fun to be tanky or healy. I get it. I love it, too. But I love being useful much more. DPS is currently more useful. I like that ANet’s big plan was to make sure every build was viable. But this has failed as far I’m concerned. You can’t heal or try to control/support a mob to death.

The Trinity exists in your character. Failing to provide DPS is, in my current opinion, a bad build. DPS focused builds can provide support and control. Bunker builds cannot provide DPS.

I can respect that people wish to play whatever builds they want to, but I don’t think I will voluntarily take a bunker build in my dungeon runs. As long as such players can also respect that some people just prefer efficiency and it’s nothing personal, I think it’s fine either way.

JJBigs.8456:

Seems nowadays everyones support. Its become too commonplace.

Definition of support? Anything and Everything that isnt damage.

Support Ranger LFG! (What does that mean, Healing Power + Healing Spring, Search and Rescue?")

Support Warrior Healing Shouts LFG!

Support Engi Heal bombs LFG!

Support Ele, boon sharing LFG!

Support ele, healer LFG!

Support Guard, AH (Which heals yourself, not team) LFG!

Support Necro, Condition>Boon converter LFG

How many more must I list… Its too general a term. Support can mean anything! I find it ridiculous when people say “Support X Class LFG” It means nothing to me. It can mean anything from they are healing, to they are support utlities, to they are tanky and hold aggro, to they drop combo fields… I mean when does the line of support get crossed into another term? Might as well just classify every non zerk build as support because people call everything support.

New to me. >_> Not very commonplace at all on Tarnished Coast. What server are you on?

Support really doesn’t exist’s because they designed the entire system around DPS. I think they really over stepped themselves by trying to remove the Trinity. By doing so, they only alienated two thirds of the players within the Trinity. I believe it’ll be the downfall of the game in the end really. Fore the Trinity has existed for a reason! It’s a style of play people LIKED!!!!! It made people feel good to be a support character. Now the only role to play is, “I hit things”. Followed by the subsequent elitism of, “I hit things harder.”

The real problem in my eyes is that there’s no reason to “build” support, particularly in armor/weapons. If the main role for support in dungeons or in pve is boon sharing and reflects, no armor and weapon you buy will improve your ability to do that. A mesmer in full zerker gear is still “support”, because the time warp, portal, and reflects provided are not influenced by her build. The elementalist boon sharing build is the one used for the aggressive double dagger play style.

Healing power is one of the only stats you can increase through your build, and it is overtly discouraged. The tiny health pool characters have means that damage mitigation from reflects and condition removal (again, skills that come from utility slots, not from builds) is much more effective.

The argument about playing for fun and not optimization is ok so far as it goes, but that doesn’t answer the point that maximizing damage is not balanced compared to other plays styles. It is just accepting and living with the problem, rather than addressing it.

molepunch.5673:

The Trinity exists in your character. Failing to provide DPS is, in my current opinion, a bad build. DPS focused builds can provide support and control. Bunker builds cannot provide DPS.

I can respect that people wish to play whatever builds they want to, but I don’t think I will voluntarily take a bunker build in my dungeon runs. As long as such players can also respect that some people just prefer efficiency and it’s nothing personal, I think it’s fine either way.

-The trinity exists in your character disproves your full berserker’s mindset, though that’s your right. It’s not about full support or full DPS. You are going full DPS, and though I respect your choice, you are playing the role of the “DPSer” in the non-existent Trinity. You believe that the only role to play is DPS, but there are no true set roles. You will probably reply “I still support while in DPS gear”, but you know very well what I am talking about (you wouldn’t be able to support as good as an hybrid, balanced build, for instance-my offensive geared Warrior supports a LOT with her banners and fire fields, but she’s not as supportive as my balanced Guardian build by miles.)

-My point isn’t to support the old so-called trinity, but more that people feel free to use whatever they want (hybrids, full DPS, “full support”, CC, etc.) without anyone telling them they are being “ineffective” because their choice is not what they would use. I stick to ANet’s plan (whether it “failed” or not), rather than blindly following math equations. Who knows, they may fix stuff so less people think it’s all DPS, because there’s no trinity, though IMHO, the players who likes DPS will always prefer DPS for themselves-a fine choice, but not for 100% of the population.

-If you prefer efficiency, make sure to always point it out on LFG when you make your groups (LF more zerk players for Arah, for instance.) That way you need not grief those players who play without artificial restrictions such as “efficiency” etc. However, you probably are doing this already-just mentioning it just in case. I never join those groups, because I am not philosophically compatible with them (even if I have the gear and meet their criteria), and it’s good to know when someone prefers efficiency over just having a good time with no restrictions whatsoever (of course, you ARE entitled to your efficient good time as well, just don’t ruin it for those who don’t care about the things that you do-not that you are griefing others, but many other “Berserker’s only” players do, as somehow they feel “superior” with the gear, mind-numbingly enough.)

-A bunker build DOESN’T FAIL TO BRING DPS-one of the biggest myths out there. It just brings less than a full DPS character, but is this a surprise? As you said, there’s no trinity, so a more balanced character is playing to this game’s philosophical strengths way more than a full DPS character. Not that your full DPS characters are wrong to use, mind you, but since no one has the right to tell you that you are playing GW2 wrong for being “all DPS all the time”, so you have no right whatsoever to tell others that your build is more effective than anyone else’s for failing to meet your preferred criteria-DPS above everything.

Fun will always be better than math in my book, though of course, “being efficient” is fun to many too-just remember the world doesn’t revolve around our preferences, and it goes both ways. “All things have a right to grow,” whether it’s a bunker build or a “zerk warr.”

rfdarko.4639:

The argument about playing for fun and not optimization is ok so far as it goes, but that doesn’t answer the point that maximizing damage is not balanced compared to other plays styles. It is just accepting and living with the problem, rather than addressing it.

Not all players want to maximize damage, nor should they, though. If they should, why? It’s about personal preference more than effective numbers for many. This is why it’s important to keep an open-mind regarding builds and specs, rather than wanting everyone else to play our way because we’ve figured its the “most efficient way” of doing so.

To be honest, people wanting for everybody to go DPS is more of a problem than just letting people play the way they want despite the apparent gear imbalances. It influences people that wouldn’t otherwise use Berserker’s gear to go get it because it’s “meta”, and then do really badly in it because it doesn’t necessarily fit their playstyle (and NOT always because they are “baddies”-Berserker’s is simply a high risk-high reward role that isn’t just for everybody, nor will it necessarily fit every group.)

DeWolfe.2174:

Support really doesn’t exist’s because they designed the entire system around DPS. I think they really over stepped themselves by trying to remove the Trinity. By doing so, they only alienated two thirds of the players within the Trinity. I believe it’ll be the downfall of the game in the end really. Fore the Trinity has existed for a reason! It’s a style of play people LIKED!!!!! It made people feel good to be a support character. Now the only role to play is, “I hit things”. Followed by the subsequent elitism of, “I hit things harder.”

I totally disagree, no offense intended, because the game wasn’t designed around DPS JUST because it lacks the Trinity-it’s people that have created an artificial “efficient” meta centered around DPS, and some then go a step further to claim that it’s the only way to play this game. ANet NEVER intended this game to be centered around DPS, even if many players believe it is so.

You do damage, you self-heal, you help others, a bit of everything regardless gear. You can do a bit more damage, less support, etc. but you can still be supportive if you want. It’s a very freeing system, though I understand it may not be a good fit if you really like the old Trinity, as seems to be your case.

It won’t be the “fall” of the game, because not every player wants the so-called Trinity, and it was already established from the very beginning that this wasn’t going to be a Trinity-based game (in fact, most if not more than half of the players would probably leave if they relented to your wishes.)

There’s nothing wrong with liking the Trinity, mind you, but it just isn’t here, because it’s not that type of game.

Star Ace.5207:

Not all players want to maximize damage, nor should they, though. If they should, why? It’s about personal preference more than effective numbers for many. This is why it’s important to keep an open-mind regarding builds and specs, rather than wanting everyone else to play our way because we’ve figured its the “most efficient way” of doing so.

To be honest, people wanting for everybody to go DPS is more of a problem than just letting people play the way they want despite the apparent gear imbalances. It influences people that wouldn’t otherwise use Berserker’s gear to go get it because it’s “meta”, and then do really badly in it because it doesn’t necessarily fit their playstyle (and NOT always because they are “baddies”-Berserker’s is simply a high risk-high reward role that isn’t just for everybody, nor will it necessarily fit every group.)

I agree with you, and I would never kick anyone out of a dungeon group if they didn’t build full berserker. I don’t WANT everyone to go all damage. In most other games, I gravitate towards support roles. What I wanted to point out, which you seem to agree with, is that gear balance heavily rewards damage. Support game play comes mostly through utility skills and mechanics that are independent of gear.

I would also argue that there are few if any challenges in the dungeons to which more damage is not the BEST solution. Not the only solution, but often the most effective. This is not the fault of the classes, but more poor dungeon design.

I think it is important to recognize that the game, in many different ways, rewards dps more than anything else. Pointing it out and giving arguments for that point is not to say that is the way I want it too be, the way it should be, or that everyone should therefor conform to what is most “optimal” in everyday play. Rather, it will hopefully encourage balance changes in the future that actually reward different styles of play.

rfdarko.4639:

Star Ace.5207:

Not all players want to maximize damage, nor should they, though. If they should, why? It’s about personal preference more than effective numbers for many. This is why it’s important to keep an open-mind regarding builds and specs, rather than wanting everyone else to play our way because we’ve figured its the “most efficient way” of doing so.

To be honest, people wanting for everybody to go DPS is more of a problem than just letting people play the way they want despite the apparent gear imbalances. It influences people that wouldn’t otherwise use Berserker’s gear to go get it because it’s “meta”, and then do really badly in it because it doesn’t necessarily fit their playstyle (and NOT always because they are “baddies”-Berserker’s is simply a high risk-high reward role that isn’t just for everybody, nor will it necessarily fit every group.)

I agree with you, and I would never kick anyone out of a dungeon group if they didn’t build full berserker. I don’t WANT everyone to go all damage. In most other games, I gravitate towards support roles. What I wanted to point out, which you seem to agree with, is that gear balance heavily rewards damage. Support game play comes mostly through utility skills and mechanics that are independent of gear.

I would also argue that there are few if any challenges in the dungeons to which more damage is not the BEST solution. Not the only solution, but often the most effective. This is not the fault of the classes, but more poor dungeon design.

I think it is important to recognize that the game, in many different ways, rewards dps more than anything else. Pointing it out and giving arguments for that point is not to say that is the way I want it too be, the way it should be, or that everyone should therefor conform to what is most “optimal” in everyday play. Rather, it will hopefully encourage balance changes in the future that actually reward different styles of play.

Indeed I wish they revised the way strict DPS has many advantages regarding rewards. For instance, DE events. It seems to be about DPS or other specific-to-the-event criteria. What happens is that some good builds can on occasion get Silver or Bronze while playing from the beginning of the event, while a very strong DPSer could join halfway into the boss battle and still get Gold. No biggie, but it’s not fair to the “support” character at all. I also do not like when some Dungeon paths almost require a specific amount of DPS for a few events within a Dungeon. I hope this becomes enough of a concern for developers, because even if it isn’t true that DPS must always be the best option, most players are taking for granted that they must go DPS or else risk being “inefficient”, and that’s a pity for the game, and for build diversity among many other things in the community overall (tends divide the community between supposed “leets” and “baddies”, indirectly makes many people use the same gear and ignore other useful stats due to mob-mentality, etc.)

Star Ace.5207:

snip

You misunderstand me to be one of those Zerk elitists and I think you’re missing the point. I runa balanced build leaning towards DPS, focusing on cleansing and CC. None of the support my build is contributing can be made better by throwing out all DPS.

I make no apologies for wanting a smooth fast run. I don’t have time to carry people and I don’t want the dungeon to go on too long. I don’t take some moral high ground with regards to what you consider to be the right attitude to have in PUGs so please don’t do that either. When I look for PUGs I actually just post “looking for friendly players”. You can stalk me on gw2lfg if you don’t believe me.

Support is weak right now. DPS is strong. By going full support you give up DPS (real DPS comes from crit/crit damage, which Cleric and Soldier lack) so that to me is running a weak build.

A few months ago here in the official forums I used to be you and this other guy was me. Try a DPS support build for a week. Try it. Until then, peace and all the best.

molepunch.5673:

Star Ace.5207:

snip

You misunderstand me to be one of those Zerk elitists and I think you’re missing the point. I runa balanced build leaning towards DPS, focusing on cleansing and CC. None of the support my build is contributing can be made better by throwing out all DPS.

I make no apologies for wanting a smooth fast run. I don’t have time to carry people and I don’t want the dungeon to go on too long. I don’t take some moral high ground with regards to what you consider to be the right attitude to have in PUGs so please don’t do that either. When I look for PUGs I actually just post “looking for friendly players”. You can stalk me on gw2lfg if you don’t believe me.

Support is weak right now. DPS is strong. By going full support you give up DPS (real DPS comes from crit/crit damage, which Cleric and Soldier lack) so that to me is running a weak build.

A few months ago here in the official forums I used to be you and this other guy was me. Try a DPS support build for a week. Try it. Until then, peace and all the best.

I have an offensive geared Warrior, and I like her in that role, though I do refuse to go all Berserker’s for personal (playstyle) reasons. She has some great support abilities, but is mostly a balanced powerhouse. I am familiar with big damage numbers, it’s just that they are not my raison d’etre on this game. I do use my Guardian in a more hybrid power/support role, because it works for me as well. Having many characters gives me options to go for more support with one, more offensive with others, and all is fine. Nothing wrong with DPS gear, as I’ve said many, many times on this forum.

It’s not about me being morally superior, but about wanting people’s personal choices to be respected. I wouldn’t tell you that your Berserker’s gear gets you downed all the time, because I don’t know you, and you may never get downed at all. However, I do take offense when a Berserker’s gear player, instead of just letting everybody play in peace whichever way they please, just brags about how his/her superior gear is the only choice to play GW2-that’s all (and certainly not ALL DPS loving players have that attitude.)

I would never change my stance like you did, because I care about the players, not just about whatever works for me or I like. No, I don’t feel “morally better” than you at all, but so shouldn’t you either, as a player, for, in your mind, “using the right gear” (my point being, the “right” gear is subjective to the player.) I would never enforce a support build on anyone (much like Berserker’s, “full support” is not a good fit/playstyle for every player.) DPS is totally fine, just not the “best option” for every player and/or Profession, so I don’t preach the superiority of ANY playstyle to anyone-to each their own, along with their preferences.

What’s troubling, though you probably won’t care, is your attitude-you feel like “carrying” others when you are “the only one” doing DPS, when in fact all professions can do DPS regardless gear. :P Moreover, if you are the only Berserker’s gear player in a group you will probably have a harder time yourself, as the build lends itself better to synergistic situations. A more balanced build is less dependent on a group actually carrying each other (since you like the word carrying-no offense meant… and ironically, most balanced builds don’t need you to carry them, because they can be even more self-reliant than most full DPS players.)

Finally, I would never tell you to accept this or that player on your party when you want to do your speedruns-just respect their right to play whichever way, and don’t have a need to state that your build is superior, because all things considered, what’s best for someone else may NOT be an effective number, but what that players likes to use and works for him/her (like it or not.) GW2 is not all about DPS unless you think it is-for many players it isn’t, and that’s OK and what’s right for them.

DPS is OK-and so is whatever else people enjoy and choose to play. It’s OK to disagree too, no need to even apologize for/explain your game-playing choices at all (and so shouldn’t anyone else, for that matter.)

(Edited to say that we don’t really disagree that much, to be honest with you, save you don’t think “full support” builds offer anything, and I leave that up to the player to decide, which is fine. I do run what you call a balanced high DPS/support build with my Warrior all the time.)

Well, I edited my post above several times and the browser is acting up and not accepting edits, so in short, I hope I wasn’t too harsh, especially since I misunderstood you (Molepunch) for a bit over there, and I would restate everything but don’t have the time right now to go over each of my words as I would wish to make things clearer. It just shows up an empty screen after editing. My apologies, and safe ventures to you.

molepunch.5673:

The Trinity exists in your character. Failing to provide DPS is, in my current opinion, a bad build. DPS focused builds can provide support and control. Bunker builds cannot provide DPS.

Well, they can provide DPS, although the amount may not be acceptable to some players and groups. Once you extrapolate this to all builds other than max DPS builds, this is the biggest failure in GW2.

You say it is too broad, but then list healing for over half of the examples.

ive never seen a support char in this game…everything is about dps burst face to face.

support is whats keeping you alive to dps.

dumb thread is dumb

/thread.