Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

Most groups with GCs rage, because GCs fall like dominoes. You can say all you want about increased DPS, but where does your DPS go when you’re downed on a floor and a good support is raising you?

And yet, whenever I fight lupi, first people to die are always non glasses who wanted 0 glasses in party before starting a run. You can tell stories from your perspective, I can tell stories from mine.

haviz.1340:

Mirta.5029:

Most groups with GCs rage, because GCs fall like dominoes. You can say all you want about increased DPS, but where does your DPS go when you’re downed on a floor and a good support is raising you?

And yet, whenever I fight lupi, first people to die are always non glasses who wanted 0 glasses in party before starting a run. You can tell stories from your perspective, I can tell stories from mine.

maybe its because they are tanking for you kitten

Despite the devs insisting there are no tanks and healers, I find the dungeon groups I’ve been in have done remarkably better when there’s a ele or two to water heal, and one or two warriors/guardians that can stand up to damage via various mechanisms.

As for glass cannons, in dungeons etc where there’s large persistent amounts of aoe or environmental damage, they tend to fall unnecessarily often due to taking too much damage for their often feeble self heals and defenses to keep up with.

Mystic Starfish.2586:

Whereas other games you just sit there and deal damage/heal, you have to actually dodge and think when you’re playing this one, because of the lack of traditional roles. But, there are people who still insist on forcing it (banner support wars, guardian healers)

I have to move more in GW2, but I’ve played plenty of MMOs where you cannot simply stand there (Rift for instance), but as for thinking, you have to be joking. I had to do way, way more thinking, have more awareness and multitask far more on my loremaster in LOTRO than on any class in GW2.

Just like every other MMO, DPS is the least demanding role and essentially every class in GW2 is DPS with a bit of support / CC / healing tacked on, a game designed on being able to look after yourself inherently demands less awareness, thought and multitasking than all but the simplist DPS classes in other games and no amount of dodging makes up for that.

I’m amazed how someone even mention an easy instance like CoF to be standard for anything.

It’s like saying you dont need tanks in WoW because your pet could tank RFD or SFK.

Now, go do Arah (exp) or any FotM lvl 10.

Bringing a tank (a charr stacked with toughness) will force mobs to focus fire on them. Most of them.

That means GC can really dps. The problem is that full GC is usually a drag to any PT as they dont survive anything and rarely bring something to the table.

A good team is formed of at least one “tank”, and 4 dpsers that also can throw some support here and there.

At least that’s how an advanced dungeon runs… not CoF….

Arah please, everyone just farms p3, the first 3 bosses can be solo’d everything else can be skipped and half the final boss fight requires you to stand on a circle AFK.

Advanced

The problem isn’t which dungeon. its just people exploit them all and run past anything and everything.

haviz.1340:

molepunch.5673:

The math seems made up and I think you’re exaggerating.

It’s not an exaggeration when stuff dies 3 times slower.

I’m a support Warrior, built tanky.

I stack defensive stats, but I ramp up party DPS by:

1) For Great Justice (Infinite Mightx3)
2) On My Mark (Vulnerability x 10)
3) I encourage AI to attack me more by taking traits/utililities to increase my Toughness

And most importantly:
3) I’m able to keep mobs on one spot without “panic rolling” like most glass or DPS. This means: EZ mode DPS via AoE. Stuff running all over the place and there is just absolute chaos. (Champion Defiance makes CC harder, so a tanky guy is required.)

Same thing any glass can do, maybe except 3, but a gc thief with pistol in offhand can tank better than you. What gives you 1s stun? You might interrupt 1 skill by wasting 6 of yours. It’s better just to press dodge or use one of many defensive skills.

On top of this, my guildies (from WoW, FF11 days) know how to further increase DPS/keeping me alive via combo fields <— highly underrated aspect of GW2 PvE, IMO).

So:
4) Consistent Combos.

Because someone with zerker’s geat can’t do it, right?

They can’t take more than a hit or two before having to panic roll or get the heck out. And as they are trying to run etc? The DPS is usually absent. And they can’t hold the boss well in one place. This means you can’t really do 4) better. We are not arguing whether or not someone can, but Tanky builds allow more Combo fields at the boss.

What nonsense re: stuff dying 3 times slower. As the guild leader I wouldn’t pull the team down if I saw that my build was dragging run speeds down. Have you honestly even tried a balanced team in the first place?

I’m keen to watch you tank in Zerker gear. Honestly, I just don’t buy it. Sorry. And if you’re gonna be snarky, we can just agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with GC, but there is a place for ALL builds, and support style builds accomplish a lot through the rest of the party. You are losing that perspective.

I’m asking you this: don’t you think it’s better for the whole game, for the community, if we can discover the depth of the gameplay? You are convinced that a bunch of GCs armed with dodges is enough. I’m not arguing that. But have you seen what a balanced polished team can do? In my experience, they can run dungeons better, faster, and safer.

To say that there is no place for tanky or healy support builds is myopic.

molepunch.5673:

They can’t take more than a hit or two before having to panic roll or get the heck out. And as they are trying to run etc? The DPS is usually absent. And they can’t hold the boss well in one place. This means you can’t really do 4) better. We are not arguing whether or not someone can, but Tanky builds allow more Combo fields at the boss.

The idea is to not get hit. How do tanky builds allow more combo fields?

What nonsense re: stuff dying 3 times slower. As the guild leader I wouldn’t pull the team down if I saw that my build was dragging run speeds down. Have you honestly even tried a balanced team in the first place?

No, I made everything up.

I’m keen to watch you tank in Zerker gear. Honestly, I just don’t buy it. Sorry. And if you’re gonna be snarky, we can just agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with GC, but there is a place for ALL builds, and support style builds accomplish a lot through the rest of the party. You are losing that perspective.

I “tank” on my full zerker guardian, full zerker thief and almost full zerker ele. Is that enough proof for you? You can support with zerker gear, I’m saying you shouldn’t gear up with cleric’s, soldier’s or magi’s gear when you’re experienced enough. This game is based on active damage mitigation, not tanking which is much less efficient.

I’m asking you this: don’t you think it’s better for the whole game, for the community, if we can discover the depth of the gameplay? You are convinced that a bunch of GCs armed with dodges is enough. I’m not arguing that. But have you seen what a balanced polished team can do? In my experience, they can run dungeons better, faster, and safer.

Experienced GC team will always be faster than experienced balanced team. The only issue is that it requires more awareness, experience and general ability to think.

To say that there is no place for tanky or healy support builds is myopic.

Anet reduced general difficulty level before the launch. Even the lead designer, said that their own QA teams had said that current difficulty of dungeons is too low. In current difficulty level, taking support/tank for experienced, skilled group is not necessary and often makes the runs easier but at the same time longer. It’s the same situation where general population keeps saying that you need to kite most bosses, that melee is not an option. Skilled and experienced players will find out that meleeing a lot of bosses is more efficent (they die faster) but it is harder. I hope that should clear some misunderstandings.

There are tanks, healers and support in this game but it isn’t quite as clear cut as in other mmo’s where the tank presses an aggro button. There also isn’t a full healer.

Guardians and even Warriors with tanky gear, make good tanks.

Guardians, warriors, engineers and eles(especially staff eles) make good healers if traited accordingly, however they also dish out damage at the same time.

No hard roles. Everyone shifts in and out of the traditional roles as the situation demands.

The best boss fights in game are like the cave troll fight in Lord of the Rings. Constant aggro swap, people being batted around and downed.

Couldn’t find a good video of the whole fight. This one starts midway

http://youtu.be/Vi5pdd7xHNI

Basically watch that fight scene over and over again until you get it.

Not saying all boss fights are perfect. Way too many are too static or gimmicky for my tastes. But it has nothing to do with lack of traditional roles.

Except that we see again and again mobs that will stick like glue to a single toon for the duration of the fight, barely switching while said toon is running back from the waypoint. Never mind that Aragorn pretty much pulls a aggro grabbing taunt around the 40 seconds mark, something that is unavailable in GW2.

digiowl.9620:

Except that we see again and again mobs that will stick like glue to a single toon for the duration of the fight, barely switching while said toon is running back from the waypoint. Never mind that Aragorn pretty much pulls a aggro grabbing taunt around the 40 seconds mark, something that is unavailable in GW2.

You need to watch it again.

Aaragon “took aggro” by standing between the troll and Frodo (who it was locked in on until the troll downed him). Aaragon also didn’t tank, and he certainly didn’t hold aggro, he got knock the kitten out.

What you don’t see is Gimli standing toe to toe with the troll, holding it in the center of the room, while one of the hobbits throws heals on him and Gandalf and Legolas plunk away at it unmolested.