Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

Nick.6972:

Mirta.5029:

Nick.6972:

support Guardian or Heal Ele is bs.

Aaaand you just insulted a whole bunch of people. GL going into Arah and CoE with high DPS only.

I can Heal better with my full cleric armor and full ascended ring set.
Does that make me a healer? Hell no. Bs.

if you were healing spected and wearing that gear though your healing on yourself would be vastly improved.

The CD on your self heal remains the same, which influences your HPS a lot more than the amount healed.

Nick.6972:

I switch to my staff/shield and mace and have 3200 Toughness, that doesn’t make me a tank either.
Yes, partially healer, tank and support, but it all mixed together in one big bleh.
Would be nice to see to fully spec into non attacking backline healer/supporter only.

you’re looking for a game with trinity then. Might want to try out a different MMO from this one

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

Mirta.5029:

I like being a team player and holding aggro with high toughness, use my abilities to get people up and heal them a bit.

I’ve never seen anyone be able to hold aggro in GW2.

bosses aggro the person with the highest toughness in the group and not the person doing the most damage. They like to switch to people doing healing sometimes. If you have a some sort of auto regen and have some toughness the will stick with you no matter what. Found that out the hard way on my warrior -_-

Good to know. Thanks.

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

You can play a tank healer in GW2 but there are things that stop us from doing that:

1- Nothing in GW2 mechanic requires you to do so.
2-You can kill everything faster using a dps party.
3-you get better loot if you play dps build.

unless A-net change that we will all play DPS.
I think A-net should make it optional for the ppl that want to play tank-healer. and I think a partial trinity system will improve the game TESO is going this route.

3 is utterly false
1 depends on how a person plays. Example – if you’re running high level dungeons without toughness or good healing one mistake can kill you.

One of the Dev said that the more damage you do the better the loot I’m not making this up.

give direct link and a quote then.

Colin Johnson:
“Please note, it is still possible to kill a creature and not do enough damage to qualify for loot (which is the only way you won’t get loot for a champion)”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Share-your-data-about-perceived-strange-drop-behavior-here

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

You can play a tank healer in GW2 but there are things that stop us from doing that:

1- Nothing in GW2 mechanic requires you to do so.
2-You can kill everything faster using a dps party.
3-you get better loot if you play dps build.

unless A-net change that we will all play DPS.
I think A-net should make it optional for the ppl that want to play tank-healer. and I think a partial trinity system will improve the game TESO is going this route.

3 is utterly false
1 depends on how a person plays. Example – if you’re running high level dungeons without toughness or good healing one mistake can kill you.

One of the Dev said that the more damage you do the better the loot I’m not making this up.

give direct link and a quote then.

Colin Johnson:
“Please note, it is still possible to kill a creature and not do enough damage to qualify for loot (which is the only way you won’t get loot for a champion)”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Share-your-data-about-perceived-strange-drop-behavior-here

That doesn’t say that the loot increases in how much damage you do. That only states that you need to do 10% damage to an enemy to qualify for loot. Which is very easy to do on regular trash mobs and requires only a little bit of effort of high level bosses in dungeons.

Nick.6972:

Mirta.5029:

Nick.6972:

I switch to my staff/shield and mace and have 3200 Toughness, that doesn’t make me a tank either.
Yes, partially healer, tank and support, but it all mixed together in one big bleh.
Would be nice to see to fully spec into non attacking backline healer/supporter only.

you’re looking for a game with trinity then. Might want to try out a different MMO from this one

And you support communism, want all professions to have same DPS/Heal/Tanking abilities. Right? North Korea would welcome you.

don’t start a political debate please. I don’t support North Korea or anything they do. That was a blatant attack towards me.

Mirta.5029:

don’t start a political debate please. I don’t support North Korea or anything they do. That was a blatant attack towards me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

RebelYell.7132:

Mirta.5029:

don’t start a political debate please. I don’t support North Korea or anything they do. That was a blatant attack towards me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

go to that and read it yourself then. Telling a person that they want communism is not an exaggeration. It’s a blatant insult.

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

You can play a tank healer in GW2 but there are things that stop us from doing that:

1- Nothing in GW2 mechanic requires you to do so.
2-You can kill everything faster using a dps party.
3-you get better loot if you play dps build.

unless A-net change that we will all play DPS.
I think A-net should make it optional for the ppl that want to play tank-healer. and I think a partial trinity system will improve the game TESO is going this route.

3 is utterly false
1 depends on how a person plays. Example – if you’re running high level dungeons without toughness or good healing one mistake can kill you.

One of the Dev said that the more damage you do the better the loot I’m not making this up.

give direct link and a quote then.

Colin Johnson:
“Please note, it is still possible to kill a creature and not do enough damage to qualify for loot (which is the only way you won’t get loot for a champion)”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Share-your-data-about-perceived-strange-drop-behavior-here

That doesn’t say that the loot increases in how much damage you do. That only states that you need to do 10% damage to an enemy to qualify for loot. Which is very easy to do on regular trash mobs and requires only a little bit of effort of high level bosses in dungeons.

Nick.6972:

Mirta.5029:

Nick.6972:

I switch to my staff/shield and mace and have 3200 Toughness, that doesn’t make me a tank either.
Yes, partially healer, tank and support, but it all mixed together in one big bleh.
Would be nice to see to fully spec into non attacking backline healer/supporter only.

you’re looking for a game with trinity then. Might want to try out a different MMO from this one

And you support communism, want all professions to have same DPS/Heal/Tanking abilities. Right? North Korea would welcome you.

don’t start a political debate please. I don’t support North Korea or anything they do. That was a blatant attack towards me.

Tell that to my Mesmer because he has bad luck everyday killing trash mobs before the event of Teq starts he get nothing or bones (solo kill) as soon I switch to my Warrior I get drops 90% of the time good drops.

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

And isn’t that pre premise and ideology of GW2?
Everyone’s equal?
Sounds familiar to some real life systems.

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

Mirta.5029:

Assyrian.4827:

You can play a tank healer in GW2 but there are things that stop us from doing that:

1- Nothing in GW2 mechanic requires you to do so.
2-You can kill everything faster using a dps party.
3-you get better loot if you play dps build.

unless A-net change that we will all play DPS.
I think A-net should make it optional for the ppl that want to play tank-healer. and I think a partial trinity system will improve the game TESO is going this route.

3 is utterly false
1 depends on how a person plays. Example – if you’re running high level dungeons without toughness or good healing one mistake can kill you.

One of the Dev said that the more damage you do the better the loot I’m not making this up.

give direct link and a quote then.

Colin Johnson:
“Please note, it is still possible to kill a creature and not do enough damage to qualify for loot (which is the only way you won’t get loot for a champion)”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Share-your-data-about-perceived-strange-drop-behavior-here

That doesn’t say that the loot increases in how much damage you do. That only states that you need to do 10% damage to an enemy to qualify for loot. Which is very easy to do on regular trash mobs and requires only a little bit of effort of high level bosses in dungeons.

Nick.6972:

Mirta.5029:

Nick.6972:

I switch to my staff/shield and mace and have 3200 Toughness, that doesn’t make me a tank either.
Yes, partially healer, tank and support, but it all mixed together in one big bleh.
Would be nice to see to fully spec into non attacking backline healer/supporter only.

you’re looking for a game with trinity then. Might want to try out a different MMO from this one

And you support communism, want all professions to have same DPS/Heal/Tanking abilities. Right? North Korea would welcome you.

don’t start a political debate please. I don’t support North Korea or anything they do. That was a blatant attack towards me.

Tell that to my Mesmer because he has bad luck everyday killing trash mobs before the event of Teq starts he get nothing or bones (solo kill) as soon I switch to my Warrior I get drops 90% of the time good drops.

well you have a lucky warrior then. Personally my warrior can deal 10k in bleeding damage alone of one ability. I’m still getting mostly blues in most dungeons. If I downgrade to a character that hits for less (my necro) my loot doesn’t become worse.

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.

This is what I want. Dedicated healer. Some great utility classes. And some ranged and melee damage classes.

The combat in GW1 was amazing compared to this game.

That being said, if this game actually took the action oriented combat to the level it deserves, it might be good too. Unfortunately, the block mechanic just doesn’t add enough to the game, IMO, to get rid of the rest.

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

nope, it’s just that most people are bored of clones of clones of clones. The same system was in there since everquest. They want something new. This game offers something new, yet you seem to want that taken away from us.

Mirta.5029:

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

nope, it’s just that most people are bored of clones of clones of clones. The same system was in there since everquest. They want something new. This game offers something new, yet you seem to want that taken away from us.

Is being new automatically better just for being new? That is really all your argument says there.

I just want other stats to scale as well as dps.

Mirta.5029:

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

nope, it’s just that most people are bored of clones of clones of clones. The same system was in there since everquest. They want something new. This game offers something new, yet you seem to want that taken away from us.

Everquest had the trinity? News to me. I thought it had mezzers, nukers, and buff twisters in addition to the more famous roles.

Have you ever wondered why it’s called HOLY TRINITY?
Has anyone ever tried reinventing a wheel?

I agree, I may get boring, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not working perfectly.

Take these 3 roles and add 5 more. Why not?

clay.7849:

Mirta.5029:

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

nope, it’s just that most people are bored of clones of clones of clones. The same system was in there since everquest. They want something new. This game offers something new, yet you seem to want that taken away from us.

Is being new automatically better just for being new? That is really all your argument says there.

not really. I’m just saying that new wasn’t done before and is refreshing. Also I like this type of new, but to those that don’t there’s plenty of old to chose from.

Nick.6972:

Have you ever wondered why it’s called HOLY TRINITY?
Has anyone ever tried reinventing a wheel?

I agree, I may get boring, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not working perfectly.

if we followed your logic gaming industry would have never climbed out of 2D.

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

Nick.6972:

Have you ever wondered why it’s called HOLY TRINITY?
Has anyone ever tried reinventing a wheel?

640k of RAM ought to be enough for anyone!

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

“Hey I swung a sword, I swung a sword again. We don’t want you to do that in Guild Wars 2”
Totally agree. Wait…

Nick.6972:

Have you ever wondered why it’s called HOLY TRINITY?
Has anyone ever tried reinventing a wheel?

I agree, I may get boring, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not working perfectly.

Well, one philosophy I’ve taken from City of Heroes is that you can use the trinity to create an infinite variety of roles, with the expanded idea that:
1) An enemy prevented from acting through control is an enemy tanked
2) Damage prevented through buffs and debuffs is damage healed
3) Damage increased through buffs and debuffs is damage dealt

This is why, when Arenanet spoke of a “damage/control/support” trinity, I thought it might actually work. And then Defiance was introduced. And then the differential on Healing Power was made infinitesimal for anything but the #6 skill.

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

Well, just cause they made it one way didn’t mean everyone was going to accept it and like it.

There’s a duality in this game.

1. Classes better at PvE
2. Classes suckier at PvE

All that really matters is DPS and having just enough skill to not completely wipe while doing said DPS. Defensive stats/builds and classes like engineer are just worse.

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

The first thing happened before people had a chance to actually see how it played, and what sort of strategization was required to clear content. The second occurred afterwards.

Curious, Do you think the current content is too hard without a trinity?

Nick.6972:

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

“Hey I swung a sword, I swung a sword again. We don’t want you to do that in Guild Wars 2”
Totally agree. Wait…

+1

Winner No. 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtAREKLnyzI
@ 0:35

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Have you ever wondered why it’s called HOLY TRINITY?
Has anyone ever tried reinventing a wheel?

I agree, I may get boring, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not working perfectly.

Well, one philosophy I’ve taken from City of Heroes is that you can use the trinity to create an infinite variety of roles, with the expanded idea that:
1) An enemy prevented from acting through control is an enemy tanked
2) Damage prevented through buffs and debuffs is damage healed
3) Damage increased through buffs and debuffs is damage dealt

This is why, when Arenanet spoke of a “damage/control/support” trinity, I thought it might actually work. And then Defiance was introduced. And then the differential on Healing Power was made infinitesimal for anything but the #6 skill.

you can remove stacks of defiance by using crowd control skills. Co-operate within the party. If 4 people would manage to remove 5 stacks of defiance with crowd control abilities the fifth one could successfully use his crowd control. Rinse and repeat.

clay.7849:

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

Well, just cause they made it one way didn’t mean everyone was going to accept it and like it.

Why did people buy the product specifically advertised as such then? Isn’t it the same as entering an MMO shooter and then complaining that MMO and shooter don’t go together?

Mirta.5029:

Why did people buy the product specifically advertised as such then? Isn’t it the same as entering an MMO shooter and then complaining that MMO and shooter don’t go together?

Why does anyone buy something and realise they don’t like it? I thought this was going to be a little more like GW1. I was wrong.

killcannon.2576:

Curious, Do you think the current content is too hard without a trinity?

Too easy. Your autoattack is your “rotation”, with the occasional burst ability like 100 Blades that’s also one button.

clay.7849:

Mirta.5029:

Why did people buy the product specifically advertised as such then? Isn’t it the same as entering an MMO shooter and then complaining that MMO and shooter don’t go together?

Why does anyone buy something and realise they don’t like it? I thought this was going to be a little more like GW1. I was wrong.

didn’t you do the research on it though?

Assyrian.4827:

Nick.6972:

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

“Hey I swung a sword, I swung a sword again. We don’t want you to do that in Guild Wars 2”
Totally agree. Wait…

+1

Winner No. 1. I’m going to look for that YouTube video.

Oh Manifesto. Makes me laugh.
“Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1…”

Mirta.5029:

clay.7849:

Mirta.5029:

Why did people buy the product specifically advertised as such then? Isn’t it the same as entering an MMO shooter and then complaining that MMO and shooter don’t go together?

Why does anyone buy something and realise they don’t like it? I thought this was going to be a little more like GW1. I was wrong.

didn’t you do the research on it though?

Not really. I remember the manifesto and really that was about it. I bought it a couple months after release on the fact that it was GW1’s second game.

Nick.6972:

Assyrian.4827:

Nick.6972:

spconder.2489:

-Makes an entire game around the concept of getting rid of the trinity and dedicated healers.

-Players ask for dedicated healing class and more trinity features.

I’m sure that there’s an AreanNet Dev/GM/Mod repeatedly smashing their head against a wall right now.

“Hey I swung a sword, I swung a sword again. We don’t want you to do that in Guild Wars 2”
Totally agree. Wait…

+1

Winner No. 1. I’m going to look for that YouTube video.

Oh Manifesto. Makes me laugh.
“Guild Wars 2 takes everything you love about Guild Wars 1…”

That one kills me the most.

Normally I play a spell-caster in MMOs, but GW2 is one of those rare exceptions I play melee. I don’t like how kiting in GW2 feels, and I have trouble sticking with any profession besides Guardian.

No trinity, EVER.

What was there to research? The game was under strict NDA until BWE came out, and you had to pay $60 plus tax to play BWE.

dandamanno.4136:

Voodoo.1709:

Ision.3207:

Voodoo.1709:

I just don’t see how adding a class that is more oriented towards group healing would hurt. It would please those that enjoy that role but would not be required for dungeons for all the reasons you all have already mentioned.

Because those classes ALREADY exist … For example: a deeply water traited staff Ele with very specific set of utilities and a very specific skill rotation can do wonders for a coordinated group of players that are famliar with a dungeon.

Same for Guardian and Engineers … hell, even the DPS monster known as, “the Warrior” can be a banner/shout beast if he desires … so a dedicated healing/regen/aegis alternative ALREADY exists – and in spades. So anyone that likes those roles has a plethora of choices …

The only thing a TRUE 100% heal the group class might do for this game is possibly make PUGGING easier (assuming he knows what he is doing, and assuming he LIKES the role …) … but the cost of having a class like this would be ruinous to every single other aspect of this game. Not to metion the gigantic overhaul of the core game the devs would have to make, as well as an overhaul to every single professions healing and regen mechanics …

Basically, if Anet wants to destroy their own game … then feel free to make a LotRO “Minstrel” class and put it in this game. Normally I would think they would never even entertain such nonsense, but hey … ya never know …

I am simply trying to understand your point here… Why would adding a class more oriented towards healing cause a MAJOR overhaul?

The way I see it you would still be able to do groups exactly how they are now (mesmer + 4 zerker warriors lol, sorry had to) or people could choose to spec more into damage and less on support/healing if they knew they could have a healer class with them.

It just adds more options IMO and doesn’t seem ground breaking in any way. Again I am not trying to make you mad just trying to figure out your point. Why couldn’t they just add a healing class and not change other classes?

Because then you end up with the same "lfg need “the healer” stuff you have in other games. Everyone will know that “class x” is the best healing class in the game and will only want them for their healing abilities, and they will be pigeon holed into that role permanently, because everyone else just wants to dps.

Same for “the best tank class”.

In the end it ends up taking away options because everyone will want “4dps + healer” It’s just in most peoples nature to want to dps like mad and not have to worry about survival. It’s easier. Since it is easier it would become the norm very fast.

Now before someone brings it up, I realize their are already preferred group make ups, but that is a failure of PvE balance and is unintended. Adding in further imbalance will not fix it.

Also, as stated above, devs would have to rework every healing skill in the game to make up for the extra group healing provided by this “healing class”. And what if you do not have the healing class? Guess what? You do not have enough healing. So you can’t just take any group makeup like you did before.

Hope that helps make the point.

How is that any different than 4 warriors looking for a mesmer? Again it doesn’t change anything because there will always be an “optimal” combination. I run plenty of dungeons without the aid of warriors and mesmers but I know that with them things might be a little easier because of the skills they have to offer. So if no changes are made to the other classes healing abilities how does that break the game?

RebelYell.7132:

What was there to research? The game was under strict NDA until BWE came out, and you had to pay $60 plus tax to play BWE.

then wouldn’t it have been smart to wait till it got released and read the reviews first?

clay.7849:

Mirta.5029:

Why did people buy the product specifically advertised as such then? Isn’t it the same as entering an MMO shooter and then complaining that MMO and shooter don’t go together?

Why does anyone buy something and realise they don’t like it? I thought this was going to be a little more like GW1. I was wrong.

No you were not wrong .
They lied to us “GW2 takes everything you love about GW1 and puts it into a fully persistent world”.

Mirta.5029:

RebelYell.7132:

What was there to research? The game was under strict NDA until BWE came out, and you had to pay $60 plus tax to play BWE.

then wouldn’t it have been smart to wait till it got released and read the reviews first?

Your line of arguments is getting really bad here. We are talking about whether we like the combat system, in particular dedicated healers.

You aren’t going to make the argument we are all wrong because we bought this game or that it is something new and different.

I understand you like it. That is good. We are offering our opinion. Just because we bought the game doesn’t make it wrong. Hell, maybe we just wanted to see for ourselves if ANet could pull it off – and realized we didn’t like it.

Mirta.5029:

RebelYell.7132:

What was there to research? The game was under strict NDA until BWE came out, and you had to pay $60 plus tax to play BWE.

then wouldn’t it have been smart to wait till it got released and read the reviews first?

Maybe. I was going to sink a significant amount of time into it so $60 seemed a reasonable amount to pay.

If I considered that money sunk costs and had no interest in GW2’s future I wouldn’t be here posting now.

While the game was advertised as ‘no trinity’, it wasn’t advertised as ‘no teamwork’.

On one hand while there is no need for anyone to stand around looking for a ‘tank’ or ‘healer’ (which has ironically been replaced by ‘LF1M guardian’), it is sort of boring when everyone has just one job – build for as much damage as you possibly can.

There are some exceptions of course – why does everyone want a Guardian when their damage is usually average? As someone who has a few lv 80s including a guardian, I believe their supporting/damage absorbing abilities are just so good (wall of reflection & altruistic healing!) that people are willing to overlook the loss of damage.

The same can’t be said of any other class except possibly mesmers. And we wonder why the top 3 classes for dungeons are warriors, mesmers, and guardians.

It’s really boring when my thief’s options are damage, damage, and damage (but from range this time. Amazing I know). Give everyone more skills that benefit the party, then make the dungeons harder to make up for all the buffs!

disclaimer: this will probably mess up PvP balance again : (

clay.7849:

The idea of a healer is to create deeper combat. Instead of everyone worrying about how fast they can DPS something, you need to account for the ability for enemies (in PvP or PvE) to be able to effectively heal or prot through your DPS.

[…]

In addition to adding a healer, you would also benefit from adding something to balance both healing and DPS – namely utility. In GW1 this was primarily the mesmer class. It could effectively shut down both monks or DPS when specced for one or the other (or both). This also added wonderful depth and strategy to a game.

I won’t say GW2’s comabt doesn’t have areas it could really stand to improve to add engagement—especially on the PvE side of things. But these mechanics like bosses/players being able to out-heal/out-survive/prevent DPS is already there, a third utility (control) which can be used to dismantle the flow of both support and damage is there. You have mechanics like Lupicus’s grub-eating, shield trapping, Alpha’s crystals, your positioning (verses attacks like Howler’s shout, how about?) that force you (or the people around you) into doing something other than punching the boss.

If the PvE content is shallow, it’s because not enough bosses take advantage of these things and because the enemy AI is not intelligent enough that running class-canon DPS builds get off easy because they don’t really have to play a lot better (which then allows them to ignore mechanics like the Searing Effigy’s healing crystals) to make up for their lacking survivability (control just… gets really waysided in PvE and a lot of classes I don’t think can make builds that are still totally effective through dungeons and I wish it wasn’t because I love control). And fixing either of those things could improve content without the slightest necessity for a dedicated healer on either side of things.

And sPvP has only one mode of gameplay, I am not at all surprised to see bunkers excelling so far there because they’re a build designed around being effectively immovable and unkillable, or being able to prevent players from getting in through control/area denial, which makes them very strong for a point-control objective game. And in hot-join where you’re probably not communicating with your team as much (don’t have time, don’t know who they are) it’s even more important you be able to handle things on your own. I’d say the sPvP game mode itself is currently limited, and thus limiting combat.

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

Engaging, specialized combat with different classes put into different roles that synergize with each other isn’t bad, necessarily, but it’s also not inherently better than a versatile system, where every class can be multiple things and people can adapt and flow between roles, and any combination of classes has the potential to be successful, and any class can be successful in more than just a single direction of builds, which makes group synergy more individual and intimate and gives the individual more personalization and capabilities on their own (and the idea of GW2 is to get here).

For those of us who like the latter, it’s nice having a game that’s really trying to go into that and make that work—and it’s not perfect right now, no, but I think it has the potential to improve, and I’d rather see them continue to flesh out a genuinely versatile set of classes and combinations with gameplay that compliments them, than see it drift to specializing. I liked GW1’s combat too, but if I wanted to play that I would go play GW1.

Sunflowers.1729:

While the game was advertised as ‘no trinity’, it wasn’t advertised as ‘no teamwork’.

On one hand while there is no need for anyone to stand around looking for a ‘tank’ or ‘healer’ (which has ironically been replaced by ‘LF1M guardian’), it is sort of boring when everyone has just one job – build for as much damage as you possibly can.

There are some exceptions of course – why does everyone want a Guardian when their damage is usually average? As someone who has a few lv 80s including a guardian, I believe their supporting/damage absorbing abilities are just so good (wall of reflection & altruistic healing!) that people are willing to overlook the loss of damage.

The same can’t be said of any other class except possibly mesmers. And we wonder why the top 3 classes for dungeons are warriors, mesmers, and guardians.

It’s really boring when my thief’s options are damage, damage, and uh damage but from a range! Give everyone more skills that benefit the party, then make the dungeons harder to make up for all the buffs!

disclaimer: this will probably mess up PvP balance again : (

Great post. I don’t know when combo fields and finishers were added, but they feel like an afterthought. They are rarely in any way beneficial and used as strategy to overcome a challenge. Instead, they are a nice “oh, I forgot about that!” mechanic that fails to really create any feeling of teamwork. Even if these were better, perhaps the teamwork would be better. Alas, they are not.

I am all down for the removal of the trinity, provided that the depth of group combat remains the same. I really don’t think it has.

clay.7849:

Not really. I remember the manifesto and really that was about it. I bought it a couple months after release on the fact that it was GW1’s second game.

It could be worse. I bought Dragon Age II because I loved Origins and thought the sequel would just be that much more awesome. Plus the company behind the game had a good track record, like following Baldur’s Gate with Shadows of Amn/Throne of Bhaal. Seems like a sure thing…

Oops.

athuria.2751:

I won’t say GW2’s comabt doesn’t have areas it could really stand to improve to add engagement—especially on the PvE side of things. But these mechanics like bosses/players being able to out-heal/out-survive/prevent DPS is already there, a third utility (control) which can be used to dismantle the flow of both support and damage is there. You have mechanics like Lupicus’s grub-eating, shield trapping, Alpha’s crystals, your positioning (verses attacks like Howler’s shout, how about?) that force you (or the people around you) into doing something other than punching the boss.

If the PvE content is shallow, it’s because not enough bosses take advantage of these things and because the enemy AI is not intelligent enough that running class-canon DPS builds get off easy because they don’t really have to play a lot better (which then allows them to ignore mechanics like the Searing Effigy’s healing crystals) to make up for their lacking survivability (control just… gets really waysided in PvE and a lot of classes I don’t think can make builds that are still totally effective through dungeons and I wish it wasn’t because I love control). And fixing either of those things could improve content without the slightest necessity for a dedicated healer on either side of things.

And sPvP has only one mode of gameplay, I am not at all surprised to see bunkers excelling so far there because they’re a build designed around being effectively immovable and unkillable, or being able to prevent players from getting in through control/area denial, which makes them very strong for a point-control objective game. And in hot-join where you’re probably not communicating with your team as much (don’t have time, don’t know who they are) it’s even more important you be able to handle things on your own. I’d say the sPvP game mode itself is currently limited, and thus limiting combat.

I agree with this a lot. We really don’t know that much about the PvE side of things because they simply cannot do the same things we can. I don’t even think I have seen an enemy dodge in PvE.

If nothing else, GW1 combat was good at creating the feeling of playing PvP even with trash mobs. If this feeling could be replicated in PvE using what skills and classes we have now – it could go a long way to making combat feel better.

Agreed on the second part too. The lack of healing combined with capture points leads to bunkers being the obvious choice for at least 2 classes in a team. If there were other game modes we would also know better how these skills and classes really felt in combat.

Very very good points.

tolunart.2095:

clay.7849:

Not really. I remember the manifesto and really that was about it. I bought it a couple months after release on the fact that it was GW1’s second game.

It could be worse. I bought Dragon Age II because I loved Origins and thought the sequel would just be that much more awesome.

Oops.

Hahahaha. I feel ya man!

tolunart.2095:

clay.7849:

Not really. I remember the manifesto and really that was about it. I bought it a couple months after release on the fact that it was GW1’s second game.

It could be worse. I bought Dragon Age II because I loved Origins and thought the sequel would just be that much more awesome. Plus the company behind the game had a good track record, like following Baldur’s Gate with Shadows of Amn/Throne of Bhaal. Seems like a sure thing…

Oops.

To be honest we all made mistakes at some point. I bought The Sims 3, Mass Effect 3 and Bioshock Infinite because I loved the previous game. Big mistake on my part.

Mirta.5029:

tolunart.2095:

clay.7849:

Not really. I remember the manifesto and really that was about it. I bought it a couple months after release on the fact that it was GW1’s second game.

It could be worse. I bought Dragon Age II because I loved Origins and thought the sequel would just be that much more awesome. Plus the company behind the game had a good track record, like following Baldur’s Gate with Shadows of Amn/Throne of Bhaal. Seems like a sure thing…

Oops.

To be honest we all made mistakes at some point. I bought The Sims 3, Mass Effect 3 and Bioshock Infinite because I loved the previous game. Big mistake on my part.

Hehe.

Primernova.5791:

Why is this not in game? I know GW2’s signature is breaking the trinity, but why?

90% of MMO players like to DPS, 6% like to heal and 4% like to tank, in my expeirence.

Seems like a DPS/Support focused set up is best right? Wrong.

Tank players, love tanking and the pressure it gives them. Healers love to support and help push, push, push!

Those roles are denied in this awesome game.

What tanks provide: ORDER, this game gets very chaotic without some positioning of mobs and bosses. Who tanks help: DPS, so they can focus on doing damage and not constantly trying to support, to keep a fight alive.

What healers provide: Well, heals and buffs, obviously. Who healers help: DPS, so they can focus on doing damage and not constantly trying to support, to keep a fight alive.

Every class can stay the same really, just put good taunts and better defensive cooldowns for the warrior and guardian. Or any tanky class, necro maybe?

As for healing, I have healed/supported every MMO I have ever played and I love that role. Good MMO players carry and that’s what makes not only a good community but a good safetynet for anyone that’s new or just needs some more time to learn to be a BAMF. It’s a game, let us support our own community of players. We (tanks/healers) badly miss it. A light mage, cleric, some kind of spirit/whisp or a tree/druid , would be a good class to add for this role.

This will also make the game easier to develop. Stop looking at the disgusting void that WoW created in the MMO market. Focus on fun and community. WoW did it completely by accident and then kittened it all up.

Go back to those casual but hard roots. Easy to learn, but hard to master. If GW2 had raids and partial trinity, along with B2P and 98% of the current systems; you would have the massive audience you deserve Anet.

Just shut up, and eat your peas