Guild Wars 2

Strong healers are really toxic to all aspects of play. They have very little play to them, and it’s incredibly difficult to prevent anything they are a part of not turning into a DPS vs HPS race.

GW1’s backline play was strong because it was so strongly built upon prot and the debuff/cleansing cycle, not healing. When strong healing skills were introduced, a lot of the fine structure of the game fell apart as it devolved into more of a damage vs healing race.

PvE tanks have always been this abomination of stupid aggro mechanics grafted with insipid power healing wrapped in a thick shell of gear checks. Those systems were specifically designed to have monsters choose to attack the least threatening foe possible, where their attacks would be the least effective – and the worse a target you were, the better you were doing your job as the tank.

I do not mourn the loss of that garbage at all.

Now, GW2 does have a problem. Its problem is that there should be trade-offs between damage and utility that are interesting and support the group in different ways. In GW1, for example, your offense required both raw damage dealing and offensive disruption to be effective – your heavy damage couldn’t kill much through protection and debuffs, while your disruption wasn’t going to kill on its own but could set up your offense by purging the protections that kept them safe.

A well designed, no-trinity version of GW2 would still be anchored in damage, with a layer of buffs and debuffs augmenting combat – and a layer of removal, both of buffs and debuffs, over which the tides of the fight would be waged.

Unfortunately that is, for the most part, totally absent from GW2.

Yes, there are a handful of buffs and debuffs – of course, the debuffs do not work in PvE against any foe that matters, which only amplifies the problem. Removal, on the other hand, is largely absent. Defense is built around invulnerability frames, against which there is no answer; dodges and bubbles conquer all. Many buffs are totally impervious to removal. The handful of the ones that are vulnerable to removal are straight stat boosts, totally uninteresting, and only vulnerable to a small handful of skills.

It is as though they understood that these elements needed to be in their game, but did not understand that they were the foundation of their game. Not the pretty murder barbie game, but the strategy aspect of it, the part that gave it depth.

So to the original point – even without an insipid hard trinity, there’s a place for a ranged support class, one that is focused on providing tactical buffs, cleansing debuffs, controlling space, and enabling movement. That class is totally consistent with everything they set out to do with this game. Yet it’s impossible to actually create, because the tools are not there; instead of a rock/paper/scissors of damage being trumped by buffs/debuffs being trumped by removal – which gets beaten down in a vacuum by brute force – you just have a game of rock/rock/rock, where rock fights rock and the best rock wins.

The game doesn’t need a trinity of one-dimensional characters. But it does need depth, depth that is sorely lacking.

clay.7849:

I agree with this a lot. We really don’t know that much about the PvE side of things because they simply cannot do the same things we can. I don’t even think I have seen an enemy dodge in PvE.

If nothing else, GW1 combat was good at creating the feeling of playing PvP even with trash mobs. If this feeling could be replicated in PvE using what skills and classes we have now – it could go a long way to making combat feel better.

Agreed on the second part too. The lack of healing combined with capture points leads to bunkers being the obvious choice for at least 2 classes in a team. If there were other game modes we would also know better how these skills and classes really felt in combat.

Very very good points.

I’ve seen bandits dodge, but that’s it. I don’t know what the limitations are and since it’s usually Cutpurses I suspect it’s just the actual Thief skills, but man I would take just being smart enough to walk out of AoE circles/having more complex skill usage both from bosses and add groups. Dredge are annoying but the Disaggregators on Rosavich in the Underground Fractal do add an extra layer of difficulty (buffing him up constantly/dazing you) you have to take into account or you might find yourself getting trashed.

Not really one for Trinity in this game,but when i bought the game i did think Damage/support/control would have actually been that. By support i thought it would have been simular to Rift’s Bard class or when A-net said any class could do anything i thought sweet! ill try and tank with my Thief something that Rift also did(so many dodges and evades) sadly thats not the case with GW2.IMO i think A-net needs to tweak the numbers that both support/control do to make them more viable to a group, but not to the point we have dedicated healer/tank roles but so partying with players that do so is more optimal but not necessary.

Primernova.5791:

90% of MMO players like to DPS, 6% like to heal and 4% like to tank, in my expeirence.

What healers provide: Well, heals and buffs, obviously. Who healers help: DPS, so they can focus on doing damage and not constantly trying to support, to keep a fight alive.

No. In trinity games healers help tanks. So 90% is the same. The 6% are there to help the 4%.

Voodoo.1709:

How is that any different than 4 warriors looking for a mesmer? Again it doesn’t change anything because there will always be an “optimal” combination. I run plenty of dungeons without the aid of warriors and mesmers but I know that with them things might be a little easier because of the skills they have to offer. So if no changes are made to the other classes healing abilities how does that break the game?

Forget about the optimal group thing for a minute.

Once you balance content difficulty for main healers it WILL unbalance it for every other possible combination.

You simply can NOT have healers that are capable of main healing in a group without making the current content trivial or completely reworking how personal heals work in the game.

All content in this game is currently balanced around the fact that everyone can take care of themselves to an nth degree, with a little help from others in the form of supplemental healing/fields and utility. If you introduce the capability to main heal/main tank you wreck the balance. Period.

Think of other mmos. How would giving every class a large personal heal/regeneration affect the content in those games? It would completely wreck it. You are suggesting basically the same thing for GW2 from the opposite angle.

If you are talking small tweaks towards tankishness or healishness then that is reviewable. But tank classes that can mitigate 80%+ damage, and healers that can main heal groups can never happen in GW2.

Aegis.9354:

…i thought sweet! ill try and tank with my Thief something that Rift also did(so many dodges and evades) sadly thats not the case with GW2.IMO i think A-net needs to tweak the numbers that both support/control do to make them more viable to a group, but not to the point we have dedicated healer/tank roles but so partying with players that do so is more optimal but not necessary.

I see your point. But I think there is a difference between facetanking and simply avoiding damage like what the thief does through stealth/hit and run tactics.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that “tank” builds in GW2 are called “bunker builds”, in that they are hard to get rid of/kill, but different classes go about it differently. I’d agree with that statement.

dandamanno.4136:

Aegis.9354:

…i thought sweet! ill try and tank with my Thief something that Rift also did(so many dodges and evades) sadly thats not the case with GW2.IMO i think A-net needs to tweak the numbers that both support/control do to make them more viable to a group, but not to the point we have dedicated healer/tank roles but so partying with players that do so is more optimal but not necessary.

I see your point. But I think there is a difference between facetanking and simply avoiding damage like what the thief does through stealth/hit and run tactics.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that “tank” builds in GW2 are called “bunker builds”, in that they are hard to get rid of/kill, but different classes go about it differently. I’d agree with that statement.

Unfortunatly stealth doesnt drop aggro so hit an run tatics result in hit an run around in stealth will boss chases you:)As for bunker builds i agree thats what tanking is in GW2, i just think there should be other ways to acheive the same result but not have to spec bunker like my example of the tank thief/rogue from rift that relied on dodge and evade to survive. Ofcourse other classes should have the same options such as Rangers being able to bunker/tank via pets and necro’s thru death shroud if you know what i’m trying to say:) as for healing/support i just think the numbers need a tweak so that they are effective an important but not manditory.Really all classes should be able to build how ever they like to achieve they’re desired result.I for one start my thief at launch with a particular build but as time has gone on im am now a Zerker thief as this is the most effective with how content is now.

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

Exactly.

Mirta.5029:

RebelYell.7132:

Nick.6972:

Ignore the trinity. Why not 1) Frontline 2) Midline 3) Backline. As in GW1’s PvP.
Never mind, with the current system that would never work.
Everyone’s a DPS till the end of GW2.

That’s why I frequent these trinity threads. Not because I want tanks and healers. I want definitive roles that aren’t “do nothing cool until we need you for Time Warp, Feedback, Temporal Curtain, or Portal”.

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

nope, it’s just that most people are bored of clones of clones of clones. The same system was in there since everquest. They want something new. This game offers something new, yet you seem to want that taken away from us.

That isn’t at all what he said.

In fact, this has been your M.O. for this entire thread, you build all these little strawman arguments and then knock them down as if you’ve won the argument when it wasn’t the argument at all in the first place.

Rebel NEVER said he wanted to take anything away. He said he wanted it IMPROVED.

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.

Maybe it’s because all you want to do is argue, kitten the facts?

And dam +n is kittened.

Sheese.

tolunart.2095:

They already have the massive audience that doesn’t want the raids and the trinity. It’s a major design decision that was made a long time ago and at this point cannot be changed without rewriting the entire game. Revisit the issue when they announce Guild Wars 3.

Like how they wanted to create a game focused on fun and not grind? Where they didn’t need to design content to make you feel like you need to log in day after day (dailies laurels, daily dungeon rewards, fractal daily, daily world boss chest, weekly guild commendations) just to keep you playing? Like how they had a graph showing the levelling curve of GW2 as a flat line and other MMOs it’s a sharp incline, but then they introduce WvW ranks which directly mimic the leveling curve design they previously criticised of other MMOs (lets identify a bad mechanic, explain why it’s bad, advertise as though we won’t use it then hide it in another system which performs essentially the same role)?

The precedent has been set. Nothing they said in their manifesto or before launch is untouchable. Honestly, the game already has a soft trinity. Some mixture of guardians, warriors and mesmers is the soft trinity of GW2 atm. Honestly, a system which dramatically favours three professions but abandons the need for specific roles is much worse than a system which has the need for three roles but ensures that all classes are efficiently effective in the roles they are designed for. I never saw class discrimination in healer/tank/DPS MMOs like I see in GW2. It’s one of the things I hated about the end game ArenaNet created in GW1 and it’s one of the things I hate about the end game they created in GW2.

As so many has voiced, why do some people want so bad to go to trinity? Can’t you guys learn to do something different?

Rash.6514:

As so many has voiced, why do some people want so bad to go to trinity? Can’t you guys learn to do something different?

What is so good about different in this game? No one seems to be willing to answer that.

Ensign’s post was pretty much on the money.

Shootsfoot.9276:

That isn’t at all what he said.

In fact, this has been your M.O. for this entire thread, you build all these little strawman arguments and then knock them down as if you’ve won the argument when it wasn’t the argument at all in the first place.

Rebel NEVER said he wanted to take anything away. He said he wanted it IMPROVED.

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.

Maybe it’s because all you want to do is argue, kitten the facts?

And kitten is kittened.

Sheese.

RebelYell.7132:

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

I was answering why people don’t like specific specialization.

I miss being in a group and feeling like I was working with people and coming together to be stronger. GW2 I usually feel like I am DPSing next to people. As one person put it in defense of the system, everyone is responsible for themselves. To me everyone being responsible for themselves means you don’t have a team where you work together.

Personally I like the trinity or having roles outside of just DPS (EQ and DAOC had some really good classes based on buffs and CC for example. Which is what I thought GW2 would be when they said they wanted a DPS/CC/support version of the trinity.). I don’t for a second recommend the trinity be introduced in GW2 because that is not how the game was designed or sold. But I do miss the idea of having roles and group based combat, not just being a DPS or a DPS with 1 or 2 support skills I use once a minute so we can burn a boss down.

Ensign.2189:

The game doesn’t need a trinity of one-dimensional characters. But it does need depth, depth that is sorely lacking.

Spot on. To your post I’d add by getting rid of the trinity they needed to increase tactical depth in encounter design, something they haven’t done. Its still all about knowing what the specific mechanics are, its just we don’t need the trinity to overcome those mechanics.

I’d also add that by getting rid of the trinity they have reduced the scoring in the game to the one dimensional ‘kills’. This has led to a lot of problems for those more support oriented classes that simply can’t match classes like thief or warrior.

Mirta.5029:

Shootsfoot.9276:

That isn’t at all what he said.

In fact, this has been your M.O. for this entire thread, you build all these little strawman arguments and then knock them down as if you’ve won the argument when it wasn’t the argument at all in the first place.

Rebel NEVER said he wanted to take anything away. He said he wanted it IMPROVED.

Not sure why you have such a hard time understanding this.

Maybe it’s because all you want to do is argue, kitten the facts?

And kitten is kittened.

Sheese.

RebelYell.7132:

People seem to demonize all specialization systems for whatever reason, though. I guess it was so horrible having to tab out when queued as damage in the Dungeon Finder that all games have to be punished for it.

I was answering why people don’t like specific specialization.

I think you’re missing what we are trying to say, honestly.

Or at least what I’m trying to say.

Let me be very clear:

We do not want a ‘trinity’ in the sense of ‘tanks’ and ‘healers’.

We want players to have to do something other than DPS.

I’d even wager that the people who argue that we want a trinity, are themselves stuck in the old ‘tank healer DPS’ mindset. Evidently if we want something other than crap loads of damage, we are looking for a ‘tank’.

NO. See what I typed up there.

Edit: I don’t think my original post was clear enough so here’s an edit using easy words.

We don’t have tanks or healers.
This leaves us with doing ‘tons of damage’ as the only thing
This is boring.
We want something else
This ‘something else’ is not tanks or healers.

Shiren.9532:

The precedent has been set. Nothing they said in their manifesto or before launch is untouchable. .

The manifesto is meaningless.

I suspect the players who hold the manifesto to be the GW Bible are relatively young. I’ve been there, you get a handful of twentysomethings and put them in an all night diner, stuff them full of enough pie and coffee, and they’ll come up with the solution to any problem in the world. But somewhere between theory and practice, reality hits HARD and you eventually realize that it’s just not that simple.

When you have a few decades behind you, a person eventually starts to realize that what we want to make happen and what we CAN make happen are usually very different things. The manifesto was what Anet WANTED to put into the game, what we got is something different. It doesn’t make it better, or worse, just different.

Treat this as its own game, not as an extension of the original Guild Wars. It won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, but they tried, and succeeded, in making something that’s very different from the rest of the games on the market. Some games have already borrowed concepts from it, and in years to come I think you’ll see more similarities to GW2 in upcoming games than differences.

We all know that the trinity is not perfect. For example, one obvious flaw of the old trinity is that hybrids cannot be “masters of none” as they should, otherwise they will be just plain inferior to specialized classes. Just for that, Arenanet was right to look at the system.

The problem is that whatever they have designed is NOT better than the old-school trinity, and it raised more issues. I’m not even sure it’s fair to say that it solved the “LFM healer” issue because people are still selecting classes for speed runs. (Warriors, guardians and mesmers are in high demand.) And that’s the big problem with this game’s highend PvE.

For me, the core of the issue with Guild Wars 2’s dungeon design is that a relatively large number of players are more defense-oriented and would rather play a supportive role. In another MMO, I know someone who only ever plays healers and she hates doing anything else. Those are the “true” tanks and healers, those that don’t spec into healing just for the fast queue. The game should not bring back the trinity due to the issues I have mentioned above, but it should at the very least try to give something to keep those players entertained. It does not, and that’s a problem.

For example, as someone who likes playing tanks, I’m all for removing the static aggro because I believe that a little chaos keeps the game exciting. However, when a boss picks me as his current target, I should be able to pop Shield Stance, Counterblow and my interrupts to give my party members a short little break while I keep the boss busy. But nope, can’t even do that. Whatever would be worth blocking is unblockable 90% of the time in dungeons, and the Defiant buffs are impossible to control because they are party-wide. (And the game is very misleading about the block part because outside of dungeons nearly everything is blockable, so you’d expect this to work in dungeons.) So even though I spent all my traits in defense and support, I have to dodge roll and run away like everyone else instead of played the way I built my character to play. This is disappointing, to say the least. Probably wouldn’t be that bad if I had picked a guardian because they have protection, but as a defense warrior I rely almost entirely on blocking, interrupts and high health for defense and 2/3 are rendered useless.

The irony is that if the game worked that way, it would actually be more fun to play that kind of character in Guild Wars 2 than it is in games with real trinity such as WoW, because timing a block and taking zero damage and no conditions from a potentially deadly attack is infinitely more rewarding than stacking 30% damage reduction here and another 20% there and hoping that the healer can do the rest.

As an aside, it wouldn’t be that bad if the DPS-control-support soft trinity actually happened. Healing is just one way of support, and tanking is just one way to control. I believe this game’s instanced PvE would be a lot better if it really allowed you to play the way you want instead of filtering in or out certain playstyles. Nobody has to play a healer, but if someone really wants to, s/he can. Ditto for tanking. I know that it must be very difficult to allow healing without making it mandatory, but I see no reason to ban tanking by making everything that matters unblockable.

I’d actually love to make GW2 my main MMO because everything else about it is superior to the other games on the market, but as a PvE-oriented person how am I supposed to play GW2 as much as I play other MMOs if the one part that is lacking is the part that keeps me logging back?

The trinity is not the issue. Encounter design is. There are some great encounters in this game but a lot of them not so much. I believe the developers are learning how to create good encounters that doesn’t involve trinity gameplay (at least I hope they are).

I do understand those that enjoy the trinity gameplay, I really do. But there are hundreds of other games that have it. Enjoy that aspect in those games. Not every game has to be the same (same philosophy goes for raiding as well).

Creeper.9360:

The trinity is not the issue. Encounter design is. There are some great encounters in this game but a lot of them not so much. I believe the developers are learning how to create good encounters that doesn’t involve trinity gameplay (at least I hope they are).

I dunno if they are, recent changes to dungeon boss encounters have basically just been to give them different mechanics nad more damage and hit points, not to make them tactically more interesting.

Personally, I’ve never played an MMO that had the trinity. Ever. I’ve played action MMOs and a few strategy MMOs, but not a single one that had Tank/Heal/DPS.

The closest to that I have ever played was City of Heroes, which had more of holy quartet: Melee (closest to tanks), Range (closest to DPS), Control, and Support. The classes of the game tended to blend these elements together in order to make some unique things. Things in the game were not all balanced, though, as some classes had more appropriateness in different situations than others. There were many ways to buff players, and they would each buff in different ways. It is for this reason that support was king in City of Heroes, where multiple support builds would multiply each other’s effectiveness.

That said, I do feel like there could be a bit better support in the game. As of right now, healing power scales horribly and is only useful for a handfull of classes. On a statistical level it offers less survivability than toughness or vitality (although it does approach survivability thresholds like toughness does, but that’s quite complicated), and toughness/vitality are always inefficient stats due to how damage is calculated. It is really hard for most classes to give boons to allies for any reliable length of time, with most things ending up scattered and awkward to use.

As far as tanking in the game goes, it is pretty cool how it is done now. It depends largely on active defenses like blocks and dodges, instead of passive defenses like boons and stats. Controls also work their way in, but control effectiveness isn’t as universally applicable, since it depends on what you’re fighting. Either way, this form of defense is fun. It makes things interesting when a missed dodge can make a whole battle go awry.

Creeper.9360:

The trinity is not the issue. Encounter design is.

+1

A great example, in my opinion, is the “wave fight” in Citadel of Flame Path 3. I’ve seen groups express disbelief after running in and getting wiped (“what was ANet thinking? This fight is impossible!”), and I’ve also seen a lot of newbie groups (that is, four players being new to P3, plus myself) succeed on the first attempt – simply by explaining the fight ahead of time, choosing roles, and working together.

It’s a tough fight which allows for many possible strategies. The design team set up some basic parameters (moderately tight space, with a “control zone” mechanic so that players cannot kite mobs to a nearby chokepoint), spiced things up by giving the enemy a few area-denial abilities (e.g. caltrops) and then dumped in a variety of different enemies which require different countermeasures (and reward different playstyles). Of particular note:

• Godforged Flame Callers. They have permanent Stability, so many forms of CC are ineffective. Melee-range stacking is possible but dangerous, since the team will take heavy damage from Fire Walls and can be stunlocked by Fire Imp explosions. If you’re patient, you can simply back off and switch to ranged weapons – relying on Piercing projectiles and AoE effects to eliminate most of the summoned Fire Imps. A few Smoke or Reflection fields can greatly reduce the pressure on the team by neutralizing their Fireball projectile attacks.

• Godforged Hellstorms. They deliver high sustained damage (notably un-spikey) at short range, and none whatsoever at long range. Can be kited around by a ranged-heavy team, but the encounter design sets a limit on kiting – ideally, you’ll want to distract them with a Ranger pet or manage distance with Push/Pull skills. If the team is melee-heavy, then CC skills (immobilize, interrupt) are very useful. For higher risk/reward, you can use a Pull effect to yank them together with their alllies into a small space – your melee cleaves and AoE skills will hit more targets, but your melee fighters will be in danger (unless the team can reliably Interrupt the flamethrower attack).

• Godforged Smokelord. Its “Eruption” AoE attack can devastate a stacked team. A melee assault can succeed, but Ash Cloud (pulsing Blindness and damage) will reduce your effectiveness. Ranged kiting would be very effective against this foe, except that the accompanying Shadowblades will tend to chase the team around and cut down isolated players. If your team has a Mesmer or Guardian then you can pull the Smokelord and Shadowblades together, thus reducing pressure on the backline and getting more effectiveness from AoE and cleave attacks (at the cost of increased pressure on the frontline fighters – how many Death Blossom attacks can you dodge?).

It’s possible to get through the fight by stacking berserker Warriors on everything, but the team will probably wipe unless it includes a veteran Guardian and/or Mesmer to provide support and control. There’s simply too much incoming damage which can’t reliably be dodged. You can reduce the emphasis on control if you have a heal-specced Elementalist or Guardian babysitting the zerker DPS players, but if your healer goes down then you’ll be in big trouble.

In my experience, mixed teams tend to fare better. If the frontline players can draw mobs together while evading major attacks, then the backline really can just go through a damage rotation while tossing in an occasional heal, CC field, or interrupt. Of course, the backline players need to remain attentive for new spawns, and must stand ready to assist a frontline player who gets Downed.

Reflection is useful at several stages of the fight, but never game-breakingly so. Enemy HP is high enough that all of your Reflection skills will be on cooldown before the enemy runs out of projectile attacks. “Pull the enemy to the wall, immobilize them, and hit them with AoE attacks” is a very effective technique, but it fails abruptly at Wave 3 (Flame Callers with Stability) – the team must be prepared to switch tactics. High enemy HP also reduces the effectiveness of the “berserker max damage WAAAAAGH” approach: your Downed allies will not reliably Rally before running out of HP (similarly, Vengeance will not reliably result in a kill), so the team needs to have some kind of plan for dealing with casualties (Shadow Refuge, Battle Standard, “I’ll kite while you heal”, etc).

FenixBlood.1502:

-Stumbles across a year later-
-Coughs-
I must say, I enjoy games where people have set rolls based on there understanding during character creation. Seeing as any roll here can pretty much do anything, limits the games ability to make a group even worthy or worth grouping period. The fact you need to find tanks or healers in most games due to the amount of people who a) find it boring or b) cant handle being a crucial roll in the games mechanics, is what make an MMO. This game just feels like an RPG I can play on my PS3 pr 4. If i wanted game where i can do everything, i would play a standard RPG and not this “none trinity” bull. Even though this game is fun to an extent, it does nothing in the value of team work. Pick any group with any class and your ready. Defeats the purpose of an MMO. This is more like “de-evolution” This game offers no challenges. You can glide with grace through this game. Your better off playing ff10-2 if you want to be whatever you want or ff tactics. Being a support class makes you understand the roll you play is important, same as a tank. Yes dps is important for down timing bosses and not dying to some ridiculous count down. But the fact remains that this games offers no stress to me/gamers (who understand game mechanics in mmos) or importance of my character. I build what i want, do what i want and bam, im max level and blah blah. If you consider this an MMO then just go play farmville, or plants vs zombies online. It doesn’t matter what you really do, you will still win. I’d rather play free to play mmos then this at most times. Though this game is built beautifully and gorgeously, i admire the work programmers and artist did to enhance this game, in that aspect its pretty freaking nice. But the rest of the game is just ok, the only thing that drives me to play this game is the story. I enjoy the interaction of your character with others, (making this an RPG not an MMORPG). Yeah i can talk to people online if im bored or lonely, etc. But theres no value to me to even run with groups, its pretty much everyone doing there own thing, and because the basic make up of monster or bosses are variably weak (Meaning the math and variables (set statistics) within each enemy is too easy) I can just roll through. lalalala. Hey if you like not having to be a critical roll and enjoying a game with ease, then yeah this game is for you. You don’t need a team structure or even a guild to play this game. You could even rogue this whole thing and just join random pugs (But you cant say pugs because everyone is the freaking same, they just look different with different animation) Look I can see why this game attractive to low base players who don’t have a whim in the world to control a fight or save allies or brutally block and aggro the deadliest of creatures, it makes sense. In respect, this game has pulled a lot of “cry baby’s” from WoW/Tera, who complain its too hard, and released pressure of game designers. So i am grateful of that. But if you want to just have fun playing in MMO (Not MMORPG) your better off playing free to play MMOS. Like i said, if i wanted to play a game where everyone looked different had different abilities but still brought the same result, ill just go play final fantasy tactics for the Play Station 1.

If you disagree with me, then you obviously have never played an important roll and felt the rush of saving team members from death or preventing mass damage for allies.

Well, I’ve healed in many games, and tanked in some. And I disagree with you. Since you’re wrong about my having played what you call an “important role,” you must be wrong about the rest, too.

IndigoSundown.5419:

FenixBlood.1502:

-Stumbles across a year later-
-Coughs-
I must say, I enjoy games where people have set rolls based on there understanding during character creation. Seeing as any roll here can pretty much do anything, limits the games ability to make a group even worthy or worth grouping period. The fact you need to find tanks or healers in most games due to the amount of people who a) find it boring or b) cant handle being a crucial roll in the games mechanics, is what make an MMO. This game just feels like an RPG I can play on my PS3 pr 4. If i wanted game where i can do everything, i would play a standard RPG and not this “none trinity” bull. Even though this game is fun to an extent, it does nothing in the value of team work. Pick any group with any class and your ready. Defeats the purpose of an MMO. This is more like “de-evolution” This game offers no challenges. You can glide with grace through this game. Your better off playing ff10-2 if you want to be whatever you want or ff tactics. Being a support class makes you understand the roll you play is important, same as a tank. Yes dps is important for down timing bosses and not dying to some ridiculous count down. But the fact remains that this games offers no stress to me/gamers (who understand game mechanics in mmos) or importance of my character. I build what i want, do what i want and bam, im max level and blah blah. If you consider this an MMO then just go play farmville, or plants vs zombies online. It doesn’t matter what you really do, you will still win. I’d rather play free to play mmos then this at most times. Though this game is built beautifully and gorgeously, i admire the work programmers and artist did to enhance this game, in that aspect its pretty freaking nice. But the rest of the game is just ok, the only thing that drives me to play this game is the story. I enjoy the interaction of your character with others, (making this an RPG not an MMORPG). Yeah i can talk to people online if im bored or lonely, etc. But theres no value to me to even run with groups, its pretty much everyone doing there own thing, and because the basic make up of monster or bosses are variably weak (Meaning the math and variables (set statistics) within each enemy is too easy) I can just roll through. lalalala. Hey if you like not having to be a critical roll and enjoying a game with ease, then yeah this game is for you. You don’t need a team structure or even a guild to play this game. You could even rogue this whole thing and just join random pugs (But you cant say pugs because everyone is the freaking same, they just look different with different animation) Look I can see why this game attractive to low base players who don’t have a whim in the world to control a fight or save allies or brutally block and aggro the deadliest of creatures, it makes sense. In respect, this game has pulled a lot of “cry baby’s” from WoW/Tera, who complain its too hard, and released pressure of game designers. So i am grateful of that. But if you want to just have fun playing in MMO (Not MMORPG) your better off playing free to play MMOS. Like i said, if i wanted to play a game where everyone looked different had different abilities but still brought the same result, ill just go play final fantasy tactics for the Play Station 1.

If you disagree with me, then you obviously have never played an important roll and felt the rush of saving team members from death or preventing mass damage for allies.

Well, I’ve healed in many games, and tanked in some. And I disagree with you. Since you’re wrong about my having played what you call an “important role,” you must be wrong about the rest, too.

Then you never felt a rush, so you truly don’t know the importance.

FenixBlood.1502:

IndigoSundown.5419:

FenixBlood.1502:

-Stumbles across a year later-
-Coughs-
I must say, I enjoy games where people have set rolls based on there understanding during character creation. Seeing as any roll here can pretty much do anything, limits the games ability to make a group even worthy or worth grouping period. The fact you need to find tanks or healers in most games due to the amount of people who a) find it boring or b) cant handle being a crucial roll in the games mechanics, is what make an MMO. This game just feels like an RPG I can play on my PS3 pr 4. If i wanted game where i can do everything, i would play a standard RPG and not this “none trinity” bull. Even though this game is fun to an extent, it does nothing in the value of team work. Pick any group with any class and your ready. Defeats the purpose of an MMO. This is more like “de-evolution” This game offers no challenges. You can glide with grace through this game. Your better off playing ff10-2 if you want to be whatever you want or ff tactics. Being a support class makes you understand the roll you play is important, same as a tank. Yes dps is important for down timing bosses and not dying to some ridiculous count down. But the fact remains that this games offers no stress to me/gamers (who understand game mechanics in mmos) or importance of my character. I build what i want, do what i want and bam, im max level and blah blah. If you consider this an MMO then just go play farmville, or plants vs zombies online. It doesn’t matter what you really do, you will still win. I’d rather play free to play mmos then this at most times. Though this game is built beautifully and gorgeously, i admire the work programmers and artist did to enhance this game, in that aspect its pretty freaking nice. But the rest of the game is just ok, the only thing that drives me to play this game is the story. I enjoy the interaction of your character with others, (making this an RPG not an MMORPG). Yeah i can talk to people online if im bored or lonely, etc. But theres no value to me to even run with groups, its pretty much everyone doing there own thing, and because the basic make up of monster or bosses are variably weak (Meaning the math and variables (set statistics) within each enemy is too easy) I can just roll through. lalalala. Hey if you like not having to be a critical roll and enjoying a game with ease, then yeah this game is for you. You don’t need a team structure or even a guild to play this game. You could even rogue this whole thing and just join random pugs (But you cant say pugs because everyone is the freaking same, they just look different with different animation) Look I can see why this game attractive to low base players who don’t have a whim in the world to control a fight or save allies or brutally block and aggro the deadliest of creatures, it makes sense. In respect, this game has pulled a lot of “cry baby’s” from WoW/Tera, who complain its too hard, and released pressure of game designers. So i am grateful of that. But if you want to just have fun playing in MMO (Not MMORPG) your better off playing free to play MMOS. Like i said, if i wanted to play a game where everyone looked different had different abilities but still brought the same result, ill just go play final fantasy tactics for the Play Station 1.

If you disagree with me, then you obviously have never played an important roll and felt the rush of saving team members from death or preventing mass damage for allies.

Well, I’ve healed in many games, and tanked in some. And I disagree with you. Since you’re wrong about my having played what you call an “important role,” you must be wrong about the rest, too.

Then you never felt a rush, so you truly don’t know the importance.

“Every individual matters. Every individual has a role to play. Every individual makes a difference.”
? Jane Goodall

Tanking is kind of silly. Maybe make dumber mobs stick with bashing the things close to them so people can armor up and protect the others, but mobs shouldn’t be stuck like glue to one guy, it hurts immersion.

Healers make sense though. Specialization is a real thing, and if you had someone specialize in healing magic so others could focus on being good at combat, it would be a real tactic. Like medics in the real world so every soldier doesn’t have to carry around a whole hospital and try to bandage themselves up when they get wounded.

Rukh.9287:

Tanking is kind of silly. Maybe make dumber mobs stick with bashing the things close to them so people can armor up and protect the others, but mobs shouldn’t be stuck like glue to one guy, it hurts immersion.

Healers make sense though. Specialization is a real thing, and if you had someone specialize in healing magic so others could focus on being good at combat, it would be a real tactic. Like medics in the real world so every soldier doesn’t have to carry around a whole hospital and try to bandage themselves up when they get wounded.

I agree in the setting of this game, healers would be enjoyable, yeah i seen mmos use none tanks to tank, but healers is what makes players push to a limit without needing to worry on themselves as their only backup.

Ensign.2189:

Strong healers are really toxic to all aspects of play. They have very little play to them, and it’s incredibly difficult to prevent anything they are a part of not turning into a DPS vs HPS race.

GW1’s backline play was strong because it was so strongly built upon prot and the debuff/cleansing cycle, not healing. When strong healing skills were introduced, a lot of the fine structure of the game fell apart as it devolved into more of a damage vs healing race.

PvE tanks have always been this abomination of stupid aggro mechanics grafted with insipid power healing wrapped in a thick shell of gear checks. Those systems were specifically designed to have monsters choose to attack the least threatening foe possible, where their attacks would be the least effective – and the worse a target you were, the better you were doing your job as the tank.

I do not mourn the loss of that garbage at all.

Now, GW2 does have a problem. Its problem is that there should be trade-offs between damage and utility that are interesting and support the group in different ways. In GW1, for example, your offense required both raw damage dealing and offensive disruption to be effective – your heavy damage couldn’t kill much through protection and debuffs, while your disruption wasn’t going to kill on its own but could set up your offense by purging the protections that kept them safe.

A well designed, no-trinity version of GW2 would still be anchored in damage, with a layer of buffs and debuffs augmenting combat – and a layer of removal, both of buffs and debuffs, over which the tides of the fight would be waged.

Unfortunately that is, for the most part, totally absent from GW2.

Yes, there are a handful of buffs and debuffs – of course, the debuffs do not work in PvE against any foe that matters, which only amplifies the problem. Removal, on the other hand, is largely absent. Defense is built around invulnerability frames, against which there is no answer; dodges and bubbles conquer all. Many buffs are totally impervious to removal. The handful of the ones that are vulnerable to removal are straight stat boosts, totally uninteresting, and only vulnerable to a small handful of skills.

It is as though they understood that these elements needed to be in their game, but did not understand that they were the foundation of their game. Not the pretty murder barbie game, but the strategy aspect of it, the part that gave it depth.

So to the original point – even without an insipid hard trinity, there’s a place for a ranged support class, one that is focused on providing tactical buffs, cleansing debuffs, controlling space, and enabling movement. That class is totally consistent with everything they set out to do with this game. Yet it’s impossible to actually create, because the tools are not there; instead of a rock/paper/scissors of damage being trumped by buffs/debuffs being trumped by removal – which gets beaten down in a vacuum by brute force – you just have a game of rock/rock/rock, where rock fights rock and the best rock wins.

The game doesn’t need a trinity of one-dimensional characters. But it does need depth, depth that is sorely lacking.

If you have a strong healer, its not toxic, they are only as strong as the game allowed them. So if you think this be the case, programmers are to blame. But then again players find mechanics, use them to their advantage to be stronger and even out wit programers, so why call a good player toxic, just because bad players rely on them.

That either tells me the class needs a nerf, or the bosses or weak. Games can have a balance. There is no balance in Rock, Rock, Rock. But with Rock, Paper Scissors, its the deciding outcome of how each player utilizes their role. Not who can kill each other the fastest. There is no tactics when rock faces rock. Only an outcome of who is strongest, not smartest. MMOS are tactics, not fist fighting. They rely on allies to make them stronger, and their enemies weaker, through spells or taunts or w/e you wish to call it.

If you want a rock vs rock game, go play street fighter.

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

I only show the mechanics of the game as a team or guild fight, not “WoW” though I do use it as an example for the trinity effect, its still pointless to make every class the same, thus making every boss exceptionable to everyone. I don’t want to roll a healer and tank a boss (like this game, though no healer, any class can take damage) There is no roll in this game, only which characters look cool in armor and which does the most damage. Its pretty dumbing down, reason why its an American game more and not a Japan or Korean mmo. Now those are games, deciding every armor and level and group and skill, not just “Your my level, nice tree build, lets kill stuff” Where as asian MMO’s “What level? What armor %? What vit? What strg? What armor? What build?” Where the game MAKES YOU THINK, im about to just rogue this game on a warrior and show how ridiculous is it compared to strategy mmos and not “lets all feel special and the same and we can all feel good!!!! rainbows and butterflies yeah!!!!”

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

It’s not an argument, it’s an advice. If those guys don’t like how gw2 combat system is done, they’re not tied to this game. It’s not like the game has much to offer for pve players besides that fast paced combat style where my guardian supports everyone in full berserker. Complaining about the absence of trinity in a non-trinity game is kind of stupid.

oxtred.7658:

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

It’s not an argument, it’s an advice. If those guys don’t like how gw2 combat system is done, they’re not tied to this game. It’s not like the game has much to offer for pve players besides that fast paced combat style where my guardian supports everyone in full berserker. Complaining about the absence of trinity in a non-trinity game is kind of stupid.

That’s the point of MMORPG’S (MASSIVE MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAMES) If creating a full virtual quest filled world were pve is not worth wild, why make a game at all? Just build server based pvp and be done with it.

FenixBlood.1502:

oxtred.7658:

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

It’s not an argument, it’s an advice. If those guys don’t like how gw2 combat system is done, they’re not tied to this game. It’s not like the game has much to offer for pve players besides that fast paced combat style where my guardian supports everyone in full berserker. Complaining about the absence of trinity in a non-trinity game is kind of stupid.

That’s the point of MMORPG’S (MASSIVE MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAMES) If creating a full virtual quest filled world were pve is not worth wild, why make a game at all? Just build server based pvp and be done with it.

Which brings it to the point, its catered to low level base players. So people who hype about this game being awesome are mostly people who failed in team rolls, or who cant even understand the point of online massive multi-player gaming to begin with. Its probably mostly failed counter strike kids who play here. So you can say “save for a WoW sub” But I highly doubt you know the true meaning of mechanics and team work when it comes to online game play. A 10 year old can beat this game, so you should feel accomplished that this game had so little to offer in aspects of a true MMO.

Just go play sims online, im sure you will feel the same effect

pve is worthwile. It’s just old. But the starting point of this game is great, and relying on active defenses is just funnier than stacking behind the tank. People are mad because they can’t bring their full nomad ranger to speedruns. But you still can play whatever you want and no one forces you to be a team player, that’s what “all welcomed” LFGs are for.

Edit: Yup, content is easy. That’s why we’re arguing for new content. But we still need the easy dungeons to stay because not everyone is in a speedrun guild.

oxtred.7658:

pve is worthwile. It’s just old. But the starting point of this game is great, and relying on active defenses is just funnier than stacking behind the tank. People are mad because they can’t bring their full nomad ranger to speedruns. But you still can play whatever you want and no one forces you to be a team player, that’s what “all welcomed” LFGs are for.

“No one forces to be a team player” Just go play basic rpgs on the play station.

No one forces anything, its a character you build solely since its creation on a roll you want to effect on the game. The fact that they’re pretty much all the same with different graphic designs, doesn’t even make it an RPG, its pretty much “who has the biggest sword” what a waste for a gamer to think.

Do you really think all classes are the same and all meta builds serve the same purpose?

Yeah, no one forces you to be a team player, that still stands. That doesn’t mean you can’t. You see all the condi removal on a meta warrior? No? That’s because they trust the guard/mesmer enough to take points away of personal traitlines. On this regard, gw2 is a great game that promotes teamplay, but you can still get away without because the content is easy. And for that, you’re blaming the combat system, when it’s the lack of new dungeons that hurt.

FenixBlood.1502:

FenixBlood.1502:

oxtred.7658:

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

It’s not an argument, it’s an advice. If those guys don’t like how gw2 combat system is done, they’re not tied to this game. It’s not like the game has much to offer for pve players besides that fast paced combat style where my guardian supports everyone in full berserker. Complaining about the absence of trinity in a non-trinity game is kind of stupid.

That’s the point of MMORPG’S (MASSIVE MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAMES) If creating a full virtual quest filled world were pve is not worth wild, why make a game at all? Just build server based pvp and be done with it.

Which brings it to the point, its catered to low level base players. So people who hype about this game being awesome are mostly people who failed in team rolls, or who cant even understand the point of online massive multi-player gaming to begin with. Its probably mostly failed counter strike kids who play here. So you can say “save for a WoW sub” But I highly doubt you know the true meaning of mechanics and team work when it comes to online game play. A 10 year old can beat this game, so you should feel accomplished that this game had so little to offer in aspects of a true MMO.

Just go play sims online, im sure you will feel the same effect

The Problem is content, the GW2 trinity would see great use, but “War against Zhaitan” part of GW2 is designed so that every class can complete it without forcing players to wait for eternity until other important classes join in the party, the bad thing about this design is that most mobs are designed more or less for direct damage builds, deal high melee damage, mobs that are good CC targets usually are Champions and most don’t possess complex mechanics or abilities (Such as heavy DoT, heavy armor, etc. Players are not always even required to keep moving during combat, as long as they kill the mobs quick enough).

Question remains, will ANet update the old content to be atleast abit more complex, increasing the use of DoT, Area denial, boons, conditions and etc.

On other hand the new Mordremoth content does offer some variance on mobs and combat mechanics, DoT, Heavy armor, area denial, etc. Everything that forces players to move and gives more reasoning to bring healing and CC into combat and satisfy psychologically the players who want to support and help others.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no to the googolplex power. No dedicated healers or tanks.

Cc and boons are the core of high level pve, we already use them.

oxtred.7658:

Do you really think all classes are the same and all meta builds serve the same purpose?

Yeah, no one forces you to be a team player, that still stands. That doesn’t mean you can’t. You see all the condi removal on a meta warrior? No? That’s because they trust the guard/mesmer enough to take points away of personal traitlines. On this regard, gw2 is a great game that promotes teamplay, but you can still get away without because the content is easy. And for that, you’re blaming the combat system, when it’s the lack of new dungeons that hurt.

Thats the point, you all regard team play as “everyone does the same thing” no roles. Its not even worth being on a team if you all do the same thing, but in different animations. There is no struggle. That’s the point, if you can play this game without basic rolls and even solo it because of easy content, whats the point? Unless you don’t like being challenged, has nothing to do with new dungeons. The dungeons now are grotesquely easy. Are all gamers just being so self righteous in a game that lacks no difficulty? Put aside even the trinity factor, there is no difficulty, do you really enjoy a game with skill to it? Are you gamers here that complacent on what gaming in general is?

If and if, they do make new dungeons or content that is difficult, will it become an actual game, but right now its no harder then barbie adventure, with pretty animations.

Do you not want to be pushed as a gamer? Why game at all that involves leveling and team fights? Might as well hang your hat. Go play old games where every move you made mattered, and experience true gaming…

Unless your all satisfied with this. Then I cant complain that majority of gamers (Americans) hold no skill in the virtual world.

FenixBlood.1502:

oxtred.7658:

Do you really think all classes are the same and all meta builds serve the same purpose?

Yeah, no one forces you to be a team player, that still stands. That doesn’t mean you can’t. You see all the condi removal on a meta warrior? No? That’s because they trust the guard/mesmer enough to take points away of personal traitlines. On this regard, gw2 is a great game that promotes teamplay, but you can still get away without because the content is easy. And for that, you’re blaming the combat system, when it’s the lack of new dungeons that hurt.

Thats the point, you all regard team play as “everyone does the same thing” no roles. Its not even worth being on a team if you all do the same thing, but in different animations. There is no struggle. That’s the point, if you can play this game without basic rolls and even solo it because of easy content, whats the point? Unless you don’t like being challenged, has nothing to do with new dungeons. The dungeons now are grotesquely easy. Are all gamers just being so self righteous in a game that lacks no difficulty? Put aside even the trinity factor, there is no difficulty, do you really enjoy a game with skill to it? Are you gamers here that complacent on what gaming in general is?

If and if, they do make new dungeons or content that is difficult, will it become an actual game, but right now its no harder then barbie adventure, with pretty animations.

Do you not want to be pushed as a gamer? Why game at all that involves leveling and team fights? Might as well hang your hat. Go play old games where every move you made mattered, and experience true gaming…

Unless your all satisfied with this. Then I cant complain that majority of gamers (Americans) hold no skill in the virtual world.

That’s funny because you keep talking about skill and you don’t even understand how the game works. No, all classes have different roles. They are all supports, but not in the same way. Eles can’t give aegis, and guards have no banner buffs. Not everyone can solo dungeons. Everyone wants new content, you, me, whiteknights heroes. Trinity on the other hand isn’t something we want. So yeah, if you’re really the god of gamers you claim to be, and if this game is so easy it makes you ill, maybe it’s time to move on. I’m having fun with this game, despite its flaws. Otherwise I would just play something else.

oxtred.7658:

FenixBlood.1502:

oxtred.7658:

Do you really think all classes are the same and all meta builds serve the same purpose?

Yeah, no one forces you to be a team player, that still stands. That doesn’t mean you can’t. You see all the condi removal on a meta warrior? No? That’s because they trust the guard/mesmer enough to take points away of personal traitlines. On this regard, gw2 is a great game that promotes teamplay, but you can still get away without because the content is easy. And for that, you’re blaming the combat system, when it’s the lack of new dungeons that hurt.

Thats the point, you all regard team play as “everyone does the same thing” no roles. Its not even worth being on a team if you all do the same thing, but in different animations. There is no struggle. That’s the point, if you can play this game without basic rolls and even solo it because of easy content, whats the point? Unless you don’t like being challenged, has nothing to do with new dungeons. The dungeons now are grotesquely easy. Are all gamers just being so self righteous in a game that lacks no difficulty? Put aside even the trinity factor, there is no difficulty, do you really enjoy a game with skill to it? Are you gamers here that complacent on what gaming in general is?

If and if, they do make new dungeons or content that is difficult, will it become an actual game, but right now its no harder then barbie adventure, with pretty animations.

Do you not want to be pushed as a gamer? Why game at all that involves leveling and team fights? Might as well hang your hat. Go play old games where every move you made mattered, and experience true gaming…

Unless your all satisfied with this. Then I cant complain that majority of gamers (Americans) hold no skill in the virtual world.

That’s funny because you keep talking about skill and you don’t even understand how the game works. No, all classes have different roles. They are all supports, but not in the same way. Eles can’t give aegis, and guards have no banner buffs. Not everyone can solo dungeons. Everyone wants new content, you, me, whiteknights heroes. Trinity on the other hand isn’t something we want. So yeah, if you’re really the god of gamers you claim to be, and if this game is so easy it makes you ill, maybe it’s time to move on. I’m having fun with this game, despite its flaws. Otherwise I would just play something else.

I don’t care how low or high my/your skill is. All i care is that we as gamers and a community are pushed to our knowledge of game play and strategy.

oxtred.7658:

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

It’s not an argument, it’s an advice. If those guys don’t like how gw2 combat system is done, they’re not tied to this game. It’s not like the game has much to offer for pve players besides that fast paced combat style where my guardian supports everyone in full berserker. Complaining about the absence of trinity in a non-trinity game is kind of stupid.

Trinity or non trinity is a single aspect. Has it possibly crossed your mind that there are a whole lot of other aspects that people might like but would rather this one thing be different even though they like all the other things in this game over other games? Or am I utterly wasting my time here.

oxtred.7658:

Cc and boons are the core of high level pve, we already use them.

Being limited to high level PvE, it still was optional on everything else, that is majority, playing support is also part psychological, they want to help others, but their part is mostly optional and have very little effect, than going full berserker.

I was talking about mobs, most of the mobs barely use boons. Boon removal and boon conversion are not quite used in PvE, save for very few encounters.

Neither did majority of mobs use large amount of conditions, so each profession’s own basic condition removals were enough.

Before Giant Beetles (Which are better off CCed so they’re flipped on their backs, making them vulnerable from all sides) and Three-Toed Tootsie (CC was required to stop Tootsie from escaping), there weren’t much of mobs to CC either, use of CC was mostly optional, most veteran and elites weren’t much of a threat to CC often, since it was better to kill them quickly. Champions mostly had the level of threat that they’re better off CCed, while Unshakable wasn’t the main flaw, it was a small part of the problem.

While the Mordrem and other Season 2 mobs offer more reasons to play other than just DPS, they still weren’t designed to force players to play specific roles, thus keeping it closer to the “Play how I want” concept. They do give more reasons to play healer support and CC, better results is there were few healer support and CC.

The old content, which favored mostly direct damage builds, healer support and CC being mostly optional, this doesn’t satisfy the players who want to cooperate and help others, psychologically too.

purpleskies.3274:

I miss being in a group and feeling like I was working with people and coming together to be stronger. GW2 I usually feel like I am DPSing next to people. As one person put it in defense of the system, everyone is responsible for themselves. To me everyone being responsible for themselves means you don’t have a team where you work together.

I don’t feel that way at all. Just because we don’t have predefined roles doesn’t mean there’s no teamwork. Although I have to say that DPS is a BIT too powerful in PvE in this game, thus making teamwork sometimes not as important (therefore people either don’t learn how to teamwork properly, or only learn enough teamwork to get by), I feel there’s actually a real deep level of teamplay available in this game. The problem is that the payoff is actually not too great and it’s easier to simply build dps and abuse stacking mechanisms.

FrostSpectre.4198:

FenixBlood.1502:

FenixBlood.1502:

oxtred.7658:

Rukh.9287:

oxtred.7658:

Guys, it’s a 1 year old post.

Those who can’t live without trinity, time to save up for a WoW monthly fee.

Because that’s the only difference between GW2 and WoW right?

When people say this argument, I always wonder what they think to themselves. “Oh yeah, this is a good’un” like they’re totally blind to how bad an argument it is.

It’s not an argument, it’s an advice. If those guys don’t like how gw2 combat system is done, they’re not tied to this game. It’s not like the game has much to offer for pve players besides that fast paced combat style where my guardian supports everyone in full berserker. Complaining about the absence of trinity in a non-trinity game is kind of stupid.

That’s the point of MMORPG’S (MASSIVE MULTI-PLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAMES) If creating a full virtual quest filled world were pve is not worth wild, why make a game at all? Just build server based pvp and be done with it.

Which brings it to the point, its catered to low level base players. So people who hype about this game being awesome are mostly people who failed in team rolls, or who cant even understand the point of online massive multi-player gaming to begin with. Its probably mostly failed counter strike kids who play here. So you can say “save for a WoW sub” But I highly doubt you know the true meaning of mechanics and team work when it comes to online game play. A 10 year old can beat this game, so you should feel accomplished that this game had so little to offer in aspects of a true MMO.

Just go play sims online, im sure you will feel the same effect

The Problem is content, the GW2 trinity would see great use, but “War against Zhaitan” part of GW2 is designed so that every class can complete it without forcing players to wait for eternity until other important classes join in the party, the bad thing about this design is that most mobs are designed more or less for direct damage builds, deal high melee damage, mobs that are good CC targets usually are Champions and most don’t possess complex mechanics or abilities (Such as heavy DoT, heavy armor, etc. Players are not always even required to keep moving during combat, as long as they kill the mobs quick enough).

Question remains, will ANet update the old content to be atleast abit more complex, increasing the use of DoT, Area denial, boons, conditions and etc.

On other hand the new Mordremoth content does offer some variance on mobs and combat mechanics, DoT, Heavy armor, area denial, etc. Everything that forces players to move and gives more reasoning to bring healing and CC into combat and satisfy psychologically the players who want to support and help others.

LOL The Trinity would not be able to fight ANY of the current World Bosses. Why? It is very simple, since the Trinity is a simple mechanic developed when computers were much simpler, the TANK will not be able to keep agro. The debuffers and condi players usually get the most agro in this game (as well as highest DPS). In a Trinity game, the Tank relies on taunts, shouts, etc to keep agro. There are none in this game and even if there were the Boss AI would ignore it.

If you want a Trinity game, go play a Trinity game. Stop trying to make every game that comes out into one.

So .. where is the “giff capes” thread ?

I think we had mounts, duelz, open PvP and now trinity the last days .. time for capes ^^

Beldin.5498:

So .. where is the “giff capes” thread ?

I think we had mounts, duelz, open PvP and now trinity the last days .. time for capes ^^

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Capes-Makes-them-a-thing