Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

Because it requires little skill.

Not necessarily. If the enemy can apply mounting pressure too it becomes an endurance game which could require just as much skill, just in different areas.

I’m with Cyninja here. I like this game mainly because one can play whatever stat and build they want, it would just take longer than optimal builds to beat contents.
So far, the new “restriction” is just for raids, and maybe also for the high level fractals revamp.
I’m sad that most, if not all, of the new instanced group contents will require specific builds, gears and/or professions to beat. (Boon strip, anyone? There could be an environmental weapon or interactive object to strip boons for groups that do not have sigil of nullification or professions that can boon strip..) But eh, most people seems like them so I guess I’ll live.

Dual.8953:

Ayrilana.1396:

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

Because it requires little skill.

Not necessarily. If the enemy can apply mounting pressure too it becomes an endurance game which could require just as much skill, just in different areas.

I don’t equate the players who defeated VG in a mix of DPS gear, teamwork, and strategy before the timer ran out as being on the same skill level as players decked out in Soldiers and dire gear auto attacking at their own leisure due to no timer and only putting in enough effort to minimize the impact certain boss abilities have to wipe the group such as stacking for the Lightning.

Dual.8953:

Ayrilana.1396:

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

Because it requires little skill.

Not necessarily. If the enemy can apply mounting pressure too it becomes an endurance game which could require just as much skill, just in different areas.

For one it makes the overall raid longer….
IDK about you, but I don’t wanna be stuck in an instance bashing a boss for 30 minutes , waiting for a slow painful death….

2nd, attrition has lower skill requirements than enrage timers…..

All you do is wear tanky gear and bash at the HP sponge that is that raid boss…..
You rarely have to have watch out for anything, and the raid becomes more forgiving because you can take more hits, miss more dodges, miss more blocks, miss time a heal, etc etc…. it makes the raid easier, that is a fact….

With enrage timers, YOU HAVE to be on top of your game because a missed block/heal/dodge could wipe you, and that starts a domino effect of ppl trying to rez you getting downed as well, etc etc…

Not only that but you have to ACTIVELY keep up the pressure on the boss because its on a timer…..

without it, heck, you could make a sandwhich and come back and still continue auto attacking the boss to death if it was attrition based lol….

This is just the first raid boss , but anet could change it to attrition based for some bosses, but I personally hope not….It requires more skill if it was enrage timer based…

Dual.8953:

Ayrilana.1396:

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

Because it requires little skill.

Not necessarily. If the enemy can apply mounting pressure too it becomes an endurance game which could require just as much skill, just in different areas.

I remember that solo Spider Queen kill using Cleric gear and only auto attacks (kinda fixed now, but the principle still apply), or that Solo Lupicus kill without dodging, or or or, the examples of defensive and healing gear making this game an actual afk faceroll are numerous. The only reason those builds aren’t the meta is because it takes a billion years to finish the content, so you either faceroll, don’t even have to dodge and kill very slowly, or you need to dodge and use active defenses to survive but the runs are much faster.

I guess for “challenging” content they had to remove the slow but facerolling option and the best way to do that are enrage timers.

Fascinating.
Message to some people: You can mix stats in Raid. You dont Need to Change your complete set from Berserk to Full tank or full condi …, you can do it, but you dont need. and that results in killing the boss easy, too.

Was fun seeing full berserk groups failing on the red miniboss, which only was able to be damaged by condies.

Without some form of a raid timer people will just go full defense and facerole it. And that hardly sounds like CGC.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Without some form of a raid timer people will just go full defense and facerole it. And that hardly sounds like CGC.

Wrong game no defense n tanks in this game sir

maddoctor.2738:

I guess for “challenging” content they had to remove the slow but facerolling option and the best way to do that are enrage timers.

It makes sense.

If the boss doesn’t increase in pressure over time, and the party can sustain, then yeah, you get a faceroll. It’s not so great design.

A hard enrage favors a high damage party. Right, wrong, or indifferent on its own, it limits group composition.
Soft enrage designs continue to test the raid group’s defenses, but it allows them extra time based on their own skill and resource management.

I’m not understanding why replacing 1 timer with 2 timers makes a fight any more interesting?

How is it better if there is a 6 minute timer to soft enrage and then another 2 minute timer until it builds up to the point of hard enrage, instead of just an 8 minute timer?

Enrage is obviously needed for reasons stated in pretty much every one of these threads. What does it matter if that enrage is a 2 timer or 1 timer enrage? Doesn’t seem to add anything to the fight. Even with the “hard” enrage you can still survive another 10-20 seconds if you are on top of things.

maddoctor.2738:

Dual.8953:

Ayrilana.1396:

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

Because it requires little skill.

Not necessarily. If the enemy can apply mounting pressure too it becomes an endurance game which could require just as much skill, just in different areas.

I remember that solo Spider Queen kill using Cleric gear and only auto attacks (kinda fixed now, but the principle still apply), or that Solo Lupicus kill without dodging, or or or, the examples of defensive and healing gear making this game an actual afk faceroll are numerous. The only reason those builds aren’t the meta is because it takes a billion years to finish the content, so you either faceroll, don’t even have to dodge and kill very slowly, or you need to dodge and use active defenses to survive but the runs are much faster.

I guess for “challenging” content they had to remove the slow but facerolling option and the best way to do that are enrage timers.

I’ve done some thinking and I see your point. Any challenge directed at a Nomads player will affect a Zerker 10x worse.
That said, adding stat types to GW2 was probably one of the biggest mistakes Anet made. At least to PvE.

Still I’m morbidly curious what would happen if Anet added grueling endurance encounters (stuff like survive for x amount of time) to Raids and high level fractals. I’ve a salt addiction.

Rauderi.8706:

maddoctor.2738:

I guess for “challenging” content they had to remove the slow but facerolling option and the best way to do that are enrage timers.

It makes sense.

If the boss doesn’t increase in pressure over time, and the party can sustain, then yeah, you get a faceroll. It’s not so great design.

A hard enrage favors a high damage party. Right, wrong, or indifferent on its own, it limits group composition.
Soft enrage designs continue to test the raid group’s defenses, but it allows them extra time based on their own skill and resource management.

Sure. The hard enrage timer is set to the existing timer. Soft enrage starts two minutes earlier.

Decrypter.1785:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Without some form of a raid timer people will just go full defense and facerole it. And that hardly sounds like CGC.

Wrong game no defense n tanks in this game sir

They didn’t say tank, full defence specs are incredibly unlikely to die.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m not understanding why replacing 1 timer with 2 timers makes a fight any more interesting?

How is it better if there is a 6 minute timer to soft enrage and then another 2 minute timer until it builds up to the point of hard enrage, instead of just an 8 minute timer?

Enrage is obviously needed for reasons stated in pretty much every one of these threads. What does it matter if that enrage is a 2 timer or 1 timer enrage? Doesn’t seem to add anything to the fight. Even with the “hard” enrage you can still survive another 10-20 seconds if you are on top of things.

Primarily, it opens up play styles.

Hard enrage leans toward the usual high-damage groups. Pitch the healers, they don’t do enough damage anyway. It’s a valid playstyle, don’t get me wrong, but it’s also poor narrative and limited design.

Soft enrage and progressive difficulty lean toward the balanced and support-oriented groups that can allocate resources to manage pockets of difficulty while the core group retains focus on the objective at hand.
It’s the difference between maybe 10-20 seconds of hard enrage and a 60 seconds of valiantly holding off a tide of death and squeaking out a win.

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

It requires very little skill and just a lot of time.

Rauderi.8706:

Hard enrage leans toward the usual high-damage groups. Pitch the healers, they don’t do enough damage anyway. It’s a valid playstyle, don’t get me wrong, but it’s also poor narrative and limited design.

That is true if the hard enrage is the only mechanic in the boss fight. If the fights require some sustained healing, condition removals, cc and taking some un-blockable damage then you simply can’t do the encounter with only high-damage groups. In that case, the key is to find the best possible DPS while also surviving the encounter.

In the old content for example and the dreaded “zerker meta”, players are doing all sorts of Support, both offensive and defensive, reflects, blinds, occasional heals are all forms of Support, also CC is used quite a lot on many encounters. So the “zerker meta” was following the same principle, do as much DPS as possible while also surviving the encounter. It was just possible to survive all types of content while using only DPS oriented gear stats (not builds) and that’s what caused a lot of frustration.

Apparently they fixed that somewhat with their raids, as you need different gear sets to succeed. The enrage timers enforce the optimal DPS, while also surviving principle. There is a reason in most trinity MMORPGs you don’t go in with 5 tanks or 5 healers, or even 4 tanks and 1 healer, or any such silly combination. It would make the content faceroll (but slow) taking any kind of skill requirement away.

Ayrilana.1396:

nekretaal.6485:

What’s wrong with winning by attrition?

Serious question.

God I hate timers.

Anet should design more bosses like the molten duo who can be holy hell if your DPS is too low if it intends to enforce DPS checks.

Because it requires little skill.

It would be fine if bosses could also play the attrition game, by healing them selves like with Simin in arah p4. Then you can’t just slowly easy mode it in tank gear.

Rauderi.8706:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m not understanding why replacing 1 timer with 2 timers makes a fight any more interesting?

How is it better if there is a 6 minute timer to soft enrage and then another 2 minute timer until it builds up to the point of hard enrage, instead of just an 8 minute timer?

Enrage is obviously needed for reasons stated in pretty much every one of these threads. What does it matter if that enrage is a 2 timer or 1 timer enrage? Doesn’t seem to add anything to the fight. Even with the “hard” enrage you can still survive another 10-20 seconds if you are on top of things.

Primarily, it opens up play styles.

Hard enrage leans toward the usual high-damage groups. Pitch the healers, they don’t do enough damage anyway. It’s a valid playstyle, don’t get me wrong, but it’s also poor narrative and limited design.

Soft enrage and progressive difficulty lean toward the balanced and support-oriented groups that can allocate resources to manage pockets of difficulty while the core group retains focus on the objective at hand.
It’s the difference between maybe 10-20 seconds of hard enrage and a 60 seconds of valiantly holding off a tide of death and squeaking out a win.

All you have described is extending the enrage timer for less skilled groups. It doesn’t matter if the timer is 8 minutes hard enrage or 6+2 minute soft enrage. If the group couldn’t do it in 8 minutes then they can’t do it in 6+2 minutes either.

Just wondering:

Does anyone actually know if the developers collect data on in-game objectives? For instance, in FFXIV, the developers have admitted (many, many, many times) that they know what dynamic events fail, what bosses kill the most players, what bosses are killed the most, what mechanics kill players the most (yes, individual mechanics.) And so forth. Basically…

They collect the following information:

• When a player dies.
• When a player survives.
• When a Dynamic Event fails.
• How a dynamic event failed.
• How many and Who was participating in the dynamic event.
• If X skill was used or not.
• What classes / jobs were used.
• If people were in a party or not.
• If the dungeon boss killed the players with the instant-wipe mechanic.
• If the dungeon boss killed the players with normal damage attacks.
• If the dungeon boss died, or not.
• What caused players to wipe on that dungeon boss, or not.
• What gear each player was using in each slot (Rarity, item level, stats, infused/materia stats, etc.)
• And lots, lots more. (Including chat logs for that dungeon at that specific time, with that specific party.)

In FFXIV, they also have a mechanic (on non-story bosses) that increases stats (Healing Power, HP and Damage) for the group if they die enough after a certain amount of dungeon time (5 minutes for instance for 3 wipes) this buff stacks after it first applies up to a certain percentage (5 >> 10 >> 15 >> 20.) Some hardcore dungeons start off at the highest stat increase as soon as the hardcore dungeon starts, due to it being old content that has useless gear.

I hope more developers do what FFXIV devs did though in terms of collecting data, so that they can adjust bosses, etc. accordingly for the lifetime of the game.