Guild Wars 2

Thornwolf.9721:

Still Though We dont “need” mounts and they are not anything “new” enough to constitute expansion content worthy.

ofc they’re content worthy ! i don’t know if you saw leaks but they're all about new masteries Duh totally not like the traditional ones …

No, not tengu. Dwarven playable race. I could type out a ton of reasons why, but I don’t need to because Dwarves are just that awesome.

Just chiming it, would definitely like Tengu so I can finally make a Necro and maybe a Rev. The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features. So I support the addition of new races. In showing support, the devs can know the effort and time put into such an addition will be well received and worthy of the investment.

The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. But EVERY addition is going to be like that. Changes to WvW, well there are people who don’t like or never bother with WvW. Changes to raids, there are still a lot of players who have never entered a raid and some who have absolutely no interest in them. Hopefully that line of logic is easy to follow so you understand my point…

Leo G.4501:

Just chiming it, would definitely like Tengu so I can finally make a Necro and maybe a Rev. The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features. So I support the addition of new races. In showing support, the devs can know the effort and time put into such an addition will be well received and worthy of the investment.

The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. But EVERY addition is going to be like that. Changes to WvW, well there are people who don’t like or never bother with WvW. Changes to raids, there are still a lot of players who have never entered a raid and some who have absolutely no interest in them. Hopefully that line of logic is easy to follow so you understand my point…

Not all features require the same amount of resources. Some may require more than what they’re worth. Anet could upgrade the game to use DX12 but is it really worth the resources to whatever benefit players gain, if any at all?

Ayrilana.1396:

Leo G.4501:

Just chiming it, would definitely like Tengu so I can finally make a Necro and maybe a Rev. The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features. So I support the addition of new races. In showing support, the devs can know the effort and time put into such an addition will be well received and worthy of the investment.

The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. But EVERY addition is going to be like that. Changes to WvW, well there are people who don’t like or never bother with WvW. Changes to raids, there are still a lot of players who have never entered a raid and some who have absolutely no interest in them. Hopefully that line of logic is easy to follow so you understand my point…

Not all features require the same amount of resources. Some may require more than what they’re worth. Anet could upgrade the game to use DX12 but is it really worth the resources to whatever benefit players gain, if any at all?

Do enough players request such a feature and they are capable of planning for such a change to be made? If so, then by all means. To estimate the worth by assumed required resources is a lot of assuming from a perspective that has little knowledge of the allocation of their resources or the resources themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but its the leap of logic that “it’s taking away resources from X” that isn’t right.

Leo G.4501:

Ayrilana.1396:

Leo G.4501:

Just chiming it, would definitely like Tengu so I can finally make a Necro and maybe a Rev. The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features. So I support the addition of new races. In showing support, the devs can know the effort and time put into such an addition will be well received and worthy of the investment.

The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. But EVERY addition is going to be like that. Changes to WvW, well there are people who don’t like or never bother with WvW. Changes to raids, there are still a lot of players who have never entered a raid and some who have absolutely no interest in them. Hopefully that line of logic is easy to follow so you understand my point…

Not all features require the same amount of resources. Some may require more than what they’re worth. Anet could upgrade the game to use DX12 but is it really worth the resources to whatever benefit players gain, if any at all?

Do enough players request such a feature and they are capable of planning for such a change to be made? If so, then by all means. To estimate the worth by assumed required resources is a lot of assuming from a perspective that has little knowledge of the allocation of their resources or the resources themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but its the leap of logic that “it’s taking away resources from X” that isn’t right.

I specifically gave that one because they have already given that kind of info about it.

Ayrilana.1396:

Leo G.4501:

Ayrilana.1396:

Leo G.4501:

Just chiming it, would definitely like Tengu so I can finally make a Necro and maybe a Rev. The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features. So I support the addition of new races. In showing support, the devs can know the effort and time put into such an addition will be well received and worthy of the investment.

The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. But EVERY addition is going to be like that. Changes to WvW, well there are people who don’t like or never bother with WvW. Changes to raids, there are still a lot of players who have never entered a raid and some who have absolutely no interest in them. Hopefully that line of logic is easy to follow so you understand my point…

Not all features require the same amount of resources. Some may require more than what they’re worth. Anet could upgrade the game to use DX12 but is it really worth the resources to whatever benefit players gain, if any at all?

Do enough players request such a feature and they are capable of planning for such a change to be made? If so, then by all means. To estimate the worth by assumed required resources is a lot of assuming from a perspective that has little knowledge of the allocation of their resources or the resources themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but its the leap of logic that “it’s taking away resources from X” that isn’t right.

I specifically gave that one because they have already given that kind of info about it.

And what’s your point?

Leo G.4501:

Ayrilana.1396:

Leo G.4501:

Ayrilana.1396:

Leo G.4501:

Just chiming it, would definitely like Tengu so I can finally make a Necro and maybe a Rev. The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features. So I support the addition of new races. In showing support, the devs can know the effort and time put into such an addition will be well received and worthy of the investment.

The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. But EVERY addition is going to be like that. Changes to WvW, well there are people who don’t like or never bother with WvW. Changes to raids, there are still a lot of players who have never entered a raid and some who have absolutely no interest in them. Hopefully that line of logic is easy to follow so you understand my point…

Not all features require the same amount of resources. Some may require more than what they’re worth. Anet could upgrade the game to use DX12 but is it really worth the resources to whatever benefit players gain, if any at all?

Do enough players request such a feature and they are capable of planning for such a change to be made? If so, then by all means. To estimate the worth by assumed required resources is a lot of assuming from a perspective that has little knowledge of the allocation of their resources or the resources themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but its the leap of logic that “it’s taking away resources from X” that isn’t right.

I specifically gave that one because they have already given that kind of info about it.

And what’s your point?

That I disagree with this:

The amount of work isn’t really the point or even the money making potential, it’s if they simply make the decision to add that specific content as features for future additions. Basically, if they thought the demand for mounts was well enough that they could add it to appease their customer base, the same logic applies for other features.

Leo G.4501:

Do enough players request such a feature and they are capable of planning for such a change to be made? If so, then by all means. To estimate the worth by assumed required resources is a lot of assuming from a perspective that has little knowledge of the allocation of their resources or the resources themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but its the leap of logic that “it’s taking away resources from X” that isn’t right.

You have that backward.

People who say Tengu are unlikely are not assuming out of thin air, but based on past notification of arenanet what content is very ressource heavy and how much of different content we see released. Especially new ingame armors are seldom and far inbetween and this has been confirmed by arenanet that it’s a very ressource heavy aspect since they have to custom make each armor set for 5 different races currently.

Ressources are a limited good no matter if material or immaterial. If something takes up a huge chunck of developement ressource it’s a logical assumption that these work hours are not available for different content.

Finaly if we assume that arenanet divides their workforce as good they can between:
- most $/hour benefit for the company
- effort to please as many of the communities wishes as they can
- advance the game in every are to keep it up to date
- introduce as much inovation as they see fit/possible

and some feature does not make the cut. Then we have to assume that even a big majority from the playerbase wanted a feature, it must have not made the cost/benefit analysis.

They already at least have a REALLY GOOD starting point for the model, in the form of the Jungle Tengu (i forget what they are called) – much better than the charr-skeleton they used for existing tengu prior to HoT.

Granted, making sure all the armour and stuff fits right and they have the animations for all weapon abilities is a lot of work, but to already have a basic design aesthetic in place (and a GOOD one at that) saves them a hell of a lot of prep work.

The new starting zone/city/racial stories/etc would still be a momentous hurdle, though. I’m sure they could sell it as a major point in a forthcoming expansion, but i can’t see a new race making it in for PoF (whatever that actualyl stands for)

Still holding out hope though! </3 #TenguForever

Ayrilana.1396:

That I disagree with this:

So you disagree that, it’s for them to decide to put in certain features requested by their playerbase? Or are you misunderstanding my point?

Cyninja.2954:

You have that backward.

Not backwards, you’re just misinterpreting my words.

Cyninja.2954:

People who say Tengu are unlikely are not assuming out of thin air, but based on past notification of arenanet what content is very ressource heavy and how much of different content we see released. Especially new ingame armors are seldom and far inbetween and this has been confirmed by arenanet that it’s a very ressource heavy aspect since they have to custom make each armor set for 5 different races currently.

I never said people assume things out of thin air. I said:

“The main problem is the mentality of players that, if a feature they aren’t a particular fan of is put in, it takes away from the resources that could go toward something they do want. "

That is, if the devs decide to put forth resources to make an addition requested by players or players put forth suggestions for additions to content, the playerbase feels entitled to chime in with what is best to put resources toward. You mention how resources are limited, just like anything in existance. What you’re not taking into account is the conjured forethought of how it is or isn’t a good decision. Mind you, I’m not saying it’s bad to have an opinion, it’s just a problem in the process of making suggestions for additional content.

Cyninja.2954:

and some feature does not make the cut. Then we have to assume that even a big majority from the playerbase wanted a feature, it must have not made the cost/benefit analysis.

But that isn’t for us to decide. To put it in perspective for you: it was specifically stated new races were not taken off the table.

“for”?

Hrm… maybe that new armor doesn’t take long enough to develop yet and comes out with too few clipping issues. I guess. :P

Seriously though, I’d rather not have them add more races. Asura and Charr constantly run into clipping/modelling issues, and this’d just get exponentially worse with another non-human-body race.

Leo G.4501:

Cyninja.2954:

and some feature does not make the cut. Then we have to assume that even a big majority from the playerbase wanted a feature, it must have not made the cost/benefit analysis.

But that isn’t for us to decide. To put it in perspective for you: it was specifically stated new races were not taken off the table.

You are taking this awfully personal. My guess is the fraction of people who are actually opposed to no new race is infantile small.

Now the fraction of players who take realistic expectations as to not get disapointed, those are certainly quite a few higher.

I never said I was against any new race (on the contrary). I merely pointed out that if they do not add a new race it was not doable in the ressources arenanet was willing to commit. No one has stated anything different so far in this thread except you missunderstanding people.

" The Tengu would offer the asian feel, as well give us just a bit of Cantha to sate the desire to return slightly. "

Well, see you in two years for the next expansion with Cantha. We’ll get the race and the area at the same time maybe :/…

I agree on a lot of points with OP. They create beautifull maps and they can’t add armors for an existing race? Please.. It’s been a long time now and a new race would be pretty nice for the game to add some diveristy.

Although Tengu is probably going to be it (assuming a new race is introduced),
always wanted to see the Largos introduced

I would personally love to see Tengu introduced but with everything seeming to point towards a Crystal Desert focused expansion (time will tell), I don’t think it’s likely for the next expansion unfortunately.

However to all those saying that a new race probably isn’t worth the effort – you can point to a number of other MMOs on the market where they are one of the most central selling points of a new xpac. There is a lot that feeds off from a new race and it’s a pretty huge pull to bring in previous gw2 players to at least try something new.

New classes yes bring they do bring in the numbers to try out something, new races not so much.

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

Swagger.1459:

No, not tengu. Dwarven playable race. I could type out a ton of reasons why, but I don’t need to because Dwarves are just that awesome.

I RP as a dwarf all the time. I set out my Box O Fun, set it to Petrification Mode, then stand there uselessly.

Really though, gimmie my burbs, ANet.

Atonement.8021:

I would personally love to see Tengu introduced but with everything seeming to point towards a Crystal Desert focused expansion (time will tell), I don’t think it’s likely for the next expansion unfortunately.

However to all those saying that a new race probably isn’t worth the effort – you can point to a number of other MMOs on the market where they are one of the most central selling points of a new xpac. There is a lot that feeds off from a new race and it’s a pretty huge pull to bring in previous gw2 players to at least try something new.

I agree. HoT had it’s selling points, a totally new mechanics never seen in game like gliding, new class or specializations. This time they can not go with specializations alone, because those are not new anymore, so they’re introducing mounts (according to leaks). I get it, expansion or its features haven’t been even announced yet, so I’m only speculating. It could even turn out that mounts are a little small feature usefull only on a few occasions. But…

Every expansion needs to have something totally new, because of marketing reasons alone. Mounts used to be big “no no, we have waypoints” before, but now it seems they are introducing them. One way or another. Why? In my opinion, it’s just a way to increase sales, nothing more. I doubt they’ll change out gameplay too much. So, how long before Anets is left out without ideas and introduce new race. We have raids already. We’ll have mounts. What’s next? Player housing seems viable, of course, but if GW2 stays long enough, we’ll should get new race eventually.

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

Atonement.8021:

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

That content can be obtained without needing it to be attached to a new playable race.

I saw a comment on the “One Path Ends” trailer and someone mentioned how Tengu are coming. Firstly that is a great Joke. Secondly, that being said it is a possibility that Tengu join in the fray because we have no reason to side with Zhaitan’s remaining forces and we will be fighting lots of what appears to be hands of titans, so either it’s a dirty free for all or we call upon the Tengu to get some ships with Tengu soldiers and assist in the charge!

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

That content can be obtained without needing it to be attached to a new playable race.

I’m talking about content specifically tied to a new race – e.g. new starting areas, personal story or whatever is in its place, new city hub to explore etc. Obviously the bulk of an xpacs content wouldn’t be just that but I’d argue that early race content, if done well, has good replay value.

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

That content can be obtained without needing it to be attached to a new playable race.

I’m talking about content specifically tied to a new race – e.g. new starting areas, personal story or whatever is in its place, new city hub to explore etc. Obviously the bulk of an xpacs content wouldn’t be just that but I’d argue that early race content, if done well, has good replay value.

Tengu isn’t a new race in the sense that there is already a lot of backstory for them. Starting areas content can be accessed by all races and it’s existence isn’t dependent on there being a new race. You could have all of Rata Sum, and its Metrica, without needing to have Asura as a playable race. Personal story content can be handled in the living story and/or an expansion story. A new city hub can exist without a new playable race.

Practically all content that a new playable race would provide can be obtained without needing a new playable race. The only things that I see a new race providing is a new cosmetic appearance and for those that RP.

Ayrilana.1396:

Practically all content that a new playable race would provide can be obtained without needing a new playable race. The only things that I see a new race providing is a new cosmetic appearance and for those that RP.

All things being equal, that’s true. However, as it turns out, some of the best stories in the game (in my opinion) are the level 10 and level 20 racial stories — the charr, asura, and most sylvari are both interesting and fun to play.

Of course, there’s no guarantee that a new race would be the same; I cringe at the idea of being stuck with a voice actor like that of the female norn (well, as exhibited in the game; the VA is fine in other roles). Worse, it puts lots of eggs in one basket. All story-oriented players like having Living World stories; not all story-oriented players care for all racial stories.

So the point remains that regardless of the resources required for adding a new race (Tengu or otherwise), those same resources can be devoted to other, similar things that appeal to more people. (And, as has been noted, it’s very likely that they can be devoted to more things; a new race requires a lot more infrastructure then “just” a new skin on some NPCs.)

To me, a new race would be a purely cosmetic addition to the game. I don’t get the arguement that it would add a lot of content. Pick any of the 5 races we currrently have. The racial content adds up to a couple hours tops, if you play it real slow. Tengu wouldn’t have any more replayability than any other race.
What it does add is a shed load of work for Anet. There is what, over a 1000 pieces of armour of different weights to fit to probably 6 or more body weights. Not to mention different animations for all the weapons due to different skeletons. However you chose to look at it, that’s a lot of work. And all work boils down to $$$$. How much does Anet have to spend, and could it cover that kind of budget? Only they can answer that and make the decision. Personally, I doubt we’ll see another race short of GW3. The cost/return doesn’t seem viable imo. I don’t buy into the arguement that a new race would generate new purchases.
If I remember correctly Anet stated that new armours were so time consuming that they will be restricted to expansions only, and then only 2 or 3 per expansion and I’m pretty sure that a significant chunk of that development time per piece goes to fitting it to the 5 races x 2 sexes x 6-10 body weights per race. A new race would take countless more development hours than they currently have budgeted for armours in an expansion. And that’s before we even start with everything else the Tengu will need, voice actors, quests, personal story (we all remember the mix ups the last time they did anything with the personal story don’t we?)

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

That content can be obtained without needing it to be attached to a new playable race.

I’m talking about content specifically tied to a new race – e.g. new starting areas, personal story or whatever is in its place, new city hub to explore etc. Obviously the bulk of an xpacs content wouldn’t be just that but I’d argue that early race content, if done well, has good replay value.

Tengu isn’t a new race in the sense that there is already a lot of backstory for them. Starting areas content can be accessed by all races and it’s existence isn’t dependent on there being a new race. You could have all of Rata Sum, and its Metrica, without needing to have Asura as a playable race. Personal story content can be handled in the living story and/or an expansion story. A new city hub can exist without a new playable race.

Practically all content that a new playable race would provide can be obtained without needing a new playable race. The only things that I see a new race providing is a new cosmetic appearance and for those that RP.

Obviously I meant playable race I thought that was a given. Of course they can but a new race is a precedent for a new starting area, as opposed to something like a new profession which, unless Anet change something quite fundamental, isn’t a precedent for a new starting area. The whole point of Rata Sum is that it’s character and aesthetics is defined by the fact Its an Asuran city, obviously you can just take the LA approach and make every city generic and non race specific but that significantly takes a away from the character of the game.

I think it all boils down to how much you personally feel races impact on the rpg element of GW2 – as a fan of the franchise since 2004 I wholeheartedly believe it is fundamental to a rich universe and is a large part of the reason it’s my favourite game.

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

That content can be obtained without needing it to be attached to a new playable race.

I’m talking about content specifically tied to a new race – e.g. new starting areas, personal story or whatever is in its place, new city hub to explore etc. Obviously the bulk of an xpacs content wouldn’t be just that but I’d argue that early race content, if done well, has good replay value.

Tengu isn’t a new race in the sense that there is already a lot of backstory for them. Starting areas content can be accessed by all races and it’s existence isn’t dependent on there being a new race. You could have all of Rata Sum, and its Metrica, without needing to have Asura as a playable race. Personal story content can be handled in the living story and/or an expansion story. A new city hub can exist without a new playable race.

Practically all content that a new playable race would provide can be obtained without needing a new playable race. The only things that I see a new race providing is a new cosmetic appearance and for those that RP.

Obviously I meant playable race I thought that was a given. Of course they can but a new race is a precedent for a new starting area, as opposed to something like a new profession which, unless Anet change something quite fundamental, isn’t a precedent for a new starting area. The whole point of Rata Sum is that it’s character and aesthetics is defined by the fact Its an Asuran city, obviously you can just take the LA approach and make every city generic and non race specific but that significantly takes a away from the character of the game.

I think it all boils down to how much you personally feel races impact on the rpg element of GW2 – as a fan of the franchise since 2004 I wholeheartedly believe it is fundamental to a rich universe and is a large part of the reason it’s my favourite game.

A new playable race isn’t a requirement to have a racial city as well as a map just outside it that follows that race’s “theme” for the lack of a better way to describe it. Anet could have not at Asura as a playable race but include everything that we see now. The only content loss specific to the race would be the personal story but that could have been added elsewhere in some form so not totally loss. The player wouldn’t be playing as an Asura but could still experience the majority of those story arcs in whatever alternative form Anet could have gone with.

Unless you like to RP, or want the appearance of your character to be that of a new race, that’s all that a new playable race would provide. Everything else, such as maps and story, is depends on the race actually being playable.

No, just no, please.

To make Tengu happen they need to do:

1. Home town, some new instances + home map (already several month for other game without new maps)
2. Voice all npc in this areas (less voiced content in other areas of game for a while)
3. Create personal story for race (equivalent of one LS season in writing)
4. Voice personal story and every other encounter in WHOLE game with 10 VA
5. Create bunch of new animations and skins for Tengu (this alone more then they done in a years)
6. Adapt skins for every armor and outfit (easy part)
7. Sell it (why I should by it, I have 9 alts already including 0 asuras and 1 worthless sylvari)

I would love if they would just corrupt tengu with Steve going nuts after another Elder Dragon fail. We go and kill all tengu using experimental charr napalm. Great stuff.

For those that say that adding a race is impractical because of the armor problem, I would like to counter it by saying that that’s the BEST reason for them to consider adding a new race.

GW2 was supposed to be a game where cosmetics were the endgame. And yet, we’ve seen how far ANet has fallen from that goal. Making new armor, the most basic component of GW2 cosmetics, is too difficult. It’s a failing on the most fundamental level, and one they need to address.

They need to change how they make armor. Bring in more people, get new software, or whatever… Just do what they have to do to make it work smoothly. But that will take money. How do you justify it? That’s right, a new race as a selling point for a new expansion. Now they’d have a cost justification to do whatever it takes to streamline their process, and a chance to get plenty of practice in with the new systems as they fit old armor onto the new race. And when they’re done, they’re set to finally get up to speed on cranking out full sets of armor again.

tldr: Adding Tengu would force ANet to focus on fixing one of their weak points, making armor sets, and give a cost justification for doing so.

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

DirtyDan.4759:

A new race has no gamplay impact at all. It is just an insane amount of work (and time) on the developer side. As mentioned: Armor adjustments, animations, voices, story, starting zones.

If you mean it has no gameplay impact in that it doesn’t add new features fair enough but it does provide a significant amount of new, long-lasting content. And we all know HoT was a feature heavy xpac with little content overall. It would make absolute sense for the pendulum to swing the other way now and new races would indeed contribute hugely in terms of giving people something to do.

That content can be obtained without needing it to be attached to a new playable race.

I’m talking about content specifically tied to a new race – e.g. new starting areas, personal story or whatever is in its place, new city hub to explore etc. Obviously the bulk of an xpacs content wouldn’t be just that but I’d argue that early race content, if done well, has good replay value.

Tengu isn’t a new race in the sense that there is already a lot of backstory for them. Starting areas content can be accessed by all races and it’s existence isn’t dependent on there being a new race. You could have all of Rata Sum, and its Metrica, without needing to have Asura as a playable race. Personal story content can be handled in the living story and/or an expansion story. A new city hub can exist without a new playable race.

Practically all content that a new playable race would provide can be obtained without needing a new playable race. The only things that I see a new race providing is a new cosmetic appearance and for those that RP.

Obviously I meant playable race I thought that was a given. Of course they can but a new race is a precedent for a new starting area, as opposed to something like a new profession which, unless Anet change something quite fundamental, isn’t a precedent for a new starting area. The whole point of Rata Sum is that it’s character and aesthetics is defined by the fact Its an Asuran city, obviously you can just take the LA approach and make every city generic and non race specific but that significantly takes a away from the character of the game.

I think it all boils down to how much you personally feel races impact on the rpg element of GW2 – as a fan of the franchise since 2004 I wholeheartedly believe it is fundamental to a rich universe and is a large part of the reason it’s my favourite game.

A new playable race isn’t a requirement to have a racial city as well as a map just outside it that follows that race’s “theme” for the lack of a better way to describe it. Anet could have not at Asura as a playable race but include everything that we see now. The only content loss specific to the race would be the personal story but that could have been added elsewhere in some form so not totally loss. The player wouldn’t be playing as an Asura but could still experience the majority of those story arcs in whatever alternative form Anet could have gone with.

Unless you like to RP, or want the appearance of your character to be that of a new race, that’s all that a new playable race would provide. Everything else, such as maps and story, is depends on the race actually being playable.

I understand it’s not a ‘requirement’ and neither is a starting area arguably, but the game would be a lot poorer if it were missing regions designed around a particular race aesthetic imo.

I feel like your suggestion here would make the game feel a lot more bland to many people – selecting a race isn’t just about the early game experience after all, it defines your character aesthetic and even at times later game dialogue (see HoT and Sylvari as an example).

I don’t RP at all and appearance is only part of it, to me the lore behind each race has a significant impact on which one I choose to create, which race I feel would best fit that etc.

Palador.2170:

For those that say that adding a race is impractical because of the armor problem, I would like to counter it by saying that that’s the BEST reason for them to consider adding a new race.

GW2 was supposed to be a game where cosmetics were the endgame. And yet, we’ve seen how far ANet has fallen from that goal. Making new armor, the most basic component of GW2 cosmetics, is too difficult. It’s a failing on the most fundamental level, and one they need to address.

They need to change how they make armor. Bring in more people, get new software, or whatever… Just do what they have to do to make it work smoothly. But that will take money. How do you justify it? That’s right, a new race as a selling point for a new expansion. Now they’d have a cost justification to do whatever it takes to streamline their process, and a chance to get plenty of practice in with the new systems as they fit old armor onto the new race. And when they’re done, they’re set to finally get up to speed on cranking out full sets of armor again.

tldr: Adding Tengu would force ANet to focus on fixing one of their weak points, making armor sets, and give a cost justification for doing so.

Totally agree with this- spot on.

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

A new playable race isn’t a requirement to have a racial city as well as a map just outside it that follows that race’s “theme” for the lack of a better way to describe it. Anet could have not at Asura as a playable race but include everything that we see now. The only content loss specific to the race would be the personal story but that could have been added elsewhere in some form so not totally loss. The player wouldn’t be playing as an Asura but could still experience the majority of those story arcs in whatever alternative form Anet could have gone with.

Unless you like to RP, or want the appearance of your character to be that of a new race, that’s all that a new playable race would provide. Everything else, such as maps and story, is depends on the race actually being playable.

I understand it’s not a ‘requirement’ and neither is a starting area arguably, but the game would be a lot poorer if it were missing regions designed around a particular race aesthetic imo.

I feel like your suggestion here would make the game feel a lot more bland to many people – selecting a race isn’t just about the early game experience after all, it defines your character aesthetic and even at times later game dialogue (see HoT and Sylvari as an example).

I don’t RP at all and appearance is only part of it, to me the lore behind each race has a significant impact on which one I choose to create, which race I feel would best fit that etc.

Regions designed around a particular race aesthetic can very well be included without that race needing to be playable. That’s part of what I was getting at.

Race doesn’t really matter for the most part when it comes to dialogue. It only had a slight impact in HoT because of how the Sylvari were tied to the dragon. I’ve already said that one of the only things that anew playable race provides is aesthetics.

Since I don’t want to keep repeating myself:

If you truly believe that a playable race provides so much outside of aesthetics and roleplaying, could you please provide proof?

For regional cities and maps, it’s not necessary. Players who select any race other than Asura, can still experience all of Rata Sum as well as Metrica. Their experience isn’t hindered as they’re not blocked from any content on these maps for not being an Asura. There may be some dialogue differences but none that I have noticed so far.

As far as story goes, the personal story arcs could always be incorporated into the living story and/or expansion story. You can have story arcs centered around a race without needing to play as one. We saw this in GW1 EotN with the Asura, Norn, and Charr. We also saw this in the personal story with the Skritt, Quaggan, Hylek, Ogre, and maybe another that I’m forgetting.

When comparing when something is worth adding (yes, it’s ultimately up to Anet), you should strip away anything that could be provided outside of it. In this case, it’s the maps and story content. What’s left is the aesthetics of seeing the race as your avatar and any role playing that you would do as that race. Some of that could minimally be covered with a combat tonic although armor and physical feature customization would be nonexistent.

Palador.2170:

For those that say that adding a race is impractical because of the armor problem, I would like to counter it by saying that that’s the BEST reason for them to consider adding a new race.

GW2 was supposed to be a game where cosmetics were the endgame. And yet, we’ve seen how far ANet has fallen from that goal. Making new armor, the most basic component of GW2 cosmetics, is too difficult. It’s a failing on the most fundamental level, and one they need to address.

They need to change how they make armor. Bring in more people, get new software, or whatever… Just do what they have to do to make it work smoothly. But that will take money. How do you justify it? That’s right, a new race as a selling point for a new expansion. Now they’d have a cost justification to do whatever it takes to streamline their process, and a chance to get plenty of practice in with the new systems as they fit old armor onto the new race. And when they’re done, they’re set to finally get up to speed on cranking out full sets of armor again.

tldr: Adding Tengu would force ANet to focus on fixing one of their weak points, making armor sets, and give a cost justification for doing so.

It’s actually one of the worst reasons as it extends out the development time of armor.

A new race is unlikely to sway many of those that don’t play this game and currently don’t have an interest in doing so. WoW adding pandas didn’t make me want to play it. For existing players, it may be a selling point, assuming it interests them, but it would only have an impact if the only reason a player is buying an expansion is because of that race.

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

A new playable race isn’t a requirement to have a racial city as well as a map just outside it that follows that race’s “theme” for the lack of a better way to describe it. Anet could have not at Asura as a playable race but include everything that we see now. The only content loss specific to the race would be the personal story but that could have been added elsewhere in some form so not totally loss. The player wouldn’t be playing as an Asura but could still experience the majority of those story arcs in whatever alternative form Anet could have gone with.

Unless you like to RP, or want the appearance of your character to be that of a new race, that’s all that a new playable race would provide. Everything else, such as maps and story, is depends on the race actually being playable.

I understand it’s not a ‘requirement’ and neither is a starting area arguably, but the game would be a lot poorer if it were missing regions designed around a particular race aesthetic imo.

I feel like your suggestion here would make the game feel a lot more bland to many people – selecting a race isn’t just about the early game experience after all, it defines your character aesthetic and even at times later game dialogue (see HoT and Sylvari as an example).

I don’t RP at all and appearance is only part of it, to me the lore behind each race has a significant impact on which one I choose to create, which race I feel would best fit that etc.

Regions designed around a particular race aesthetic can very well be included without that race needing to be playable. That’s part of what I was getting at.

Race doesn’t really matter for the most part when it comes to dialogue. It only had a slight impact in HoT because of how the Sylvari were tied to the dragon. I’ve already said that one of the only things that anew playable race provides is aesthetics.

---

Since I don’t want to keep repeating myself:

If you truly believe that a playable race provides so much outside of aesthetics and roleplaying, could you please provide proof?

For regional cities and maps, it’s not necessary. Players who select any race other than Asura, can still experience all of Rata Sum as well as Metrica. Their experience isn’t hindered as they’re not blocked from any content on these maps for not being an Asura. There may be some dialogue differences but none that I have noticed so far.

As far as story goes, the personal story arcs could always be incorporated into the living story and/or expansion story. You can have story arcs centered around a race without needing to play as one. We saw this in GW1 EotN with the Asura, Norn, and Charr. We also saw this in the personal story with the Skritt, Quaggan, Hylek, Ogre, and maybe another that I’m forgetting.

When comparing when something is worth adding (yes, it’s ultimately up to Anet), you should strip away anything that could be provided outside of it. In this case, it’s the maps and story content. What’s left is the aesthetics of seeing the race as your avatar and any role playing that you would do as that race. Some of that could minimally be covered with a combat tonic although armor and physical feature customization would be nonexistent.

I feel this is becoming somewhat cyclical – ultimately you believe adding a new race is not worth it on Anet’s part, I believe it is so we’ll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you get enjoyment from gw2 in a different way to me.

All I would say is there is just as much onus on you to prove that a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point as there is on me to prove it would be.

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

Atonement.8021:

Ayrilana.1396:

A new playable race isn’t a requirement to have a racial city as well as a map just outside it that follows that race’s “theme” for the lack of a better way to describe it. Anet could have not at Asura as a playable race but include everything that we see now. The only content loss specific to the race would be the personal story but that could have been added elsewhere in some form so not totally loss. The player wouldn’t be playing as an Asura but could still experience the majority of those story arcs in whatever alternative form Anet could have gone with.

Unless you like to RP, or want the appearance of your character to be that of a new race, that’s all that a new playable race would provide. Everything else, such as maps and story, is depends on the race actually being playable.

I understand it’s not a ‘requirement’ and neither is a starting area arguably, but the game would be a lot poorer if it were missing regions designed around a particular race aesthetic imo.

I feel like your suggestion here would make the game feel a lot more bland to many people – selecting a race isn’t just about the early game experience after all, it defines your character aesthetic and even at times later game dialogue (see HoT and Sylvari as an example).

I don’t RP at all and appearance is only part of it, to me the lore behind each race has a significant impact on which one I choose to create, which race I feel would best fit that etc.

Regions designed around a particular race aesthetic can very well be included without that race needing to be playable. That’s part of what I was getting at.

Race doesn’t really matter for the most part when it comes to dialogue. It only had a slight impact in HoT because of how the Sylvari were tied to the dragon. I’ve already said that one of the only things that anew playable race provides is aesthetics.

---

Since I don’t want to keep repeating myself:

If you truly believe that a playable race provides so much outside of aesthetics and roleplaying, could you please provide proof?

For regional cities and maps, it’s not necessary. Players who select any race other than Asura, can still experience all of Rata Sum as well as Metrica. Their experience isn’t hindered as they’re not blocked from any content on these maps for not being an Asura. There may be some dialogue differences but none that I have noticed so far.

As far as story goes, the personal story arcs could always be incorporated into the living story and/or expansion story. You can have story arcs centered around a race without needing to play as one. We saw this in GW1 EotN with the Asura, Norn, and Charr. We also saw this in the personal story with the Skritt, Quaggan, Hylek, Ogre, and maybe another that I’m forgetting.

When comparing when something is worth adding (yes, it’s ultimately up to Anet), you should strip away anything that could be provided outside of it. In this case, it’s the maps and story content. What’s left is the aesthetics of seeing the race as your avatar and any role playing that you would do as that race. Some of that could minimally be covered with a combat tonic although armor and physical feature customization would be nonexistent.

I feel this is becoming somewhat cyclical – ultimately you believe adding a new race is not worth it on Anet’s part, I believe it is so we’ll have to agree to disagree. Clearly you get enjoyment from gw2 in a different way to me.

All I would say is there is just as much onus on you to prove that a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point as there is on me to prove it would be.

I kind of did provide some insight into why a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point in attracting new players to justify the costs like some people have claimed.

Atonement.8021:

All I would say is there is just as much onus on you to prove that a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point as there is on me to prove it would be.

On the contrary, it’s up to those asking for a change to the status quo to show that it’s worth the resources to change it. Especially in this situation, since the goal of threads such as this is to convince ANet to change their plans.

All critics need to do is show that the costs are substantive

Ayrilana.1396:

I kind of did provide some insight into why a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point in attracting new players to justify the costs like some people have claimed.

It’s not about just new players, though. Doing something for loyal veteran players will lead to sales as well. A lot of what ANet sells is the experience, and part of that is the visuals. Playable Tengu has a lot of opportunity, depending on the excellence of its execution.

Of course, it’s up to ANet to gauge interest and estimate profitability, so while I want Tengu, I don’t necessarily expect Tengu. Want, though. ANet, gimme burbs, I gibs you ninety moneydollars~

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

I kind of did provide some insight into why a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point in attracting new players to justify the costs like some people have claimed.

It’s not about just new players, though. Doing something for loyal veteran players will lead to sales as well. A lot of what ANet sells is the experience, and part of that is the visuals. Playable Tengu has a lot of opportunity, depending on the excellence of its execution.

Of course, it’s up to ANet to gauge interest and estimate profitability, so while I want Tengu, I don’t necessarily expect Tengu. Want, though. ANet, gimme burbs, I gibs you ninety moneydollars~

I had addressed that too in a previous post in which I was asking the poster to refer to. The impact of a new playable race as a selling point which causes increased sales depends on whether those sales came from existing players who would not have bought the expansion if it had not been included. It would otherwise just be a factor used to purchase an expansion, but not one that would cause players to buy it all by itself.

It’s kind of like if HoT had included Tengu as a playable race. Doesn’t make sense with the story but let’s go with it. All of those that currently own HoT would not count towards the increased sales caused by the addtion of the playable race. It may have caused some players to be more hyped about that expansion but they ultimately bought it without it.

I’m all for new races and I love Tengu! What’s else to argue about ,you either want it or don’t! Don’t come with ridiculous arguments or even good ones against it because it’s not like us(the Tengu lovers) will be convinced!

Ayrilana.1396:

I had addressed that too in a previous post in which I was asking the poster to refer to. The impact of a new playable race as a selling point which causes increased sales depends on whether those sales came from existing players who would not have bought the expansion if it had not been included. It would otherwise just be a factor used to purchase an expansion, but not one that would cause players to buy it all by itself.

It’s kind of like if HoT had included Tengu as a playable race. Doesn’t make sense with the story but let’s go with it. All of those that currently own HoT would not count towards the increased sales caused by the addtion of the playable race. It may have caused some players to be more hyped about that expansion but they ultimately bought it without it.

True, there would have been no more HoT sales from those people. But what about character slots? Maybe an outfit or two that looks good on their new characters? Special Tengu weapons in the gemstore? And let’s not forget the other positive effects on the game, such as the economic impact of everyone suddenly gearing up entirely new characters.

Even with the people that didn’t need a new race for an expansion, there would be some gain from a lot of them.

Palador.2170:

Ayrilana.1396:

I had addressed that too in a previous post in which I was asking the poster to refer to. The impact of a new playable race as a selling point which causes increased sales depends on whether those sales came from existing players who would not have bought the expansion if it had not been included. It would otherwise just be a factor used to purchase an expansion, but not one that would cause players to buy it all by itself.

It’s kind of like if HoT had included Tengu as a playable race. Doesn’t make sense with the story but let’s go with it. All of those that currently own HoT would not count towards the increased sales caused by the addtion of the playable race. It may have caused some players to be more hyped about that expansion but they ultimately bought it without it.

True, there would have been no more HoT sales from those people. But what about character slots? Maybe an outfit or two that looks good on their new characters? Special Tengu weapons in the gemstore? And let’s not forget the other positive effects on the game, such as the economic impact of everyone suddenly gearing up entirely new characters.

Even with the people that didn’t need a new race for an expansion, there would be some gain from a lot of them.

Assuming players didn’t demand for a free character slot to be included like they did with Rev.

There might be en economic impact with people gearing up characters but that’s difficult to say with how much ascended people have nowadays that could just be transferred over. Also whether there’s enough players gearing up to cause anything more than a small blip.

Ayrilana.1396:

If you truly believe that a playable race provides so much outside of aesthetics and roleplaying, could you please provide proof?

Aesthetics is the only real proof you need since it is the driving force behind current sales. Either you believe in “fashion wars” or you don’t. If you don’t, then such additions aren’t aimed at you and if you stand by that thought, we should stop bothering with creating new armor as well, just focus all efforts on outfits.

That is the false basis of the resource argument here, that utilizing resources for a certain feature negates efforts for others. That doing such things has no rippling effects and thus those individuals have more insight than other players or the developers themselves if a feature is a good idea or bad.

The fuel of your argument lies with the robustness of the feature itself; i.e. the stronger and more interesting you make said feature, the more effort and resources it would cost. But such an argument ignores other avenues of profit making alts can provide. No one is arguing that adding a new race would take little effort, the meat of the argument here is the worth of such an addition. The opposition to an additional race doesn’t seem to take into account the subjectivity of the argument on both sides but rather one is subjective while the other is objective.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Atonement.8021:

All I would say is there is just as much onus on you to prove that a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point as there is on me to prove it would be.

On the contrary, it’s up to those asking for a change to the status quo to show that it’s worth the resources to change it. Especially in this situation, since the goal of threads such as this is to convince ANet to change their plans.

All critics need to do is show that the costs are substantive

No one is asking for a change to the status quo. A change to the status quo is changing what the game offers. Those in this thread are asking for additions. If critics only have to speculate on resource allocation, practically any change outside of balance patches could be argued as too costly and substantive.

Criticism is a good thing, but mainly when it’s not taking itself as gospel (outside of professional subjects).

Leo G.4501:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Atonement.8021:

All I would say is there is just as much onus on you to prove that a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point as there is on me to prove it would be.

On the contrary, it’s up to those asking for a change to the status quo to show that it’s worth the resources to change it. Especially in this situation, since the goal of threads such as this is to convince ANet to change their plans.

All critics need to do is show that the costs are substantive

No one is asking for a change to the status quo. A change to the status quo is changing what the game offers. Those in this thread are asking for additions. If critics only have to speculate on resource allocation, practically any change outside of balance patches could be argued as too costly and substantive.

Criticism is a good thing, but mainly when it’s not taking itself as gospel (outside of professional subjects).

Was about to respond to Illconceived but you’ve worded it better than I would have – totally agree.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Atonement.8021:

All I would say is there is just as much onus on you to prove that a new race wouldn’t be an effective selling point as there is on me to prove it would be.

On the contrary, it’s up to those asking for a change to the status quo to show that it’s worth the resources to change it. Especially in this situation, since the goal of threads such as this is to convince ANet to change their plans.

All critics need to do is show that the costs are substantive

Leo G has pretty much summed up my thoughts in response to this but I would add is that none of us, and I mean none of us, have any real idea of Anet’s specific resource costs, ability of individual devs etc. So I don’t realistically know what resources it would take, neither do you (and you also don’t know that the costs for adding a new race would be substantive – unless you have some financial evidence from Anet which clearly shows how much adding a new race would cost them).

Couldn’t we agree that it would be good to come up with a lot of arguments, also financially, which would make tengu a new playable race?

The only arguments I have is:

1. I would really like tengu as a playable race
2. I have the feeling a lot of other players would like to as well.

Swell, but that won’t do it xD. I’d leave it to others to come up with other and better arguments, since that is not my strength atm. Maybe a poll? I don’t know.

Leo G.4501:

Ayrilana.1396:

If you truly believe that a playable race provides so much outside of aesthetics and roleplaying, could you please provide proof?

Aesthetics is the only real proof you need since it is the driving force behind current sales. Either you believe in “fashion wars” or you don’t. If you don’t, then such additions aren’t aimed at you and if you stand by that thought, we should stop bothering with creating new armor as well, just focus all efforts on outfits.

That is the false basis of the resource argument here, that utilizing resources for a certain feature negates efforts for others. That doing such things has no rippling effects and thus those individuals have more insight than other players or the developers themselves if a feature is a good idea or bad.

The fuel of your argument lies with the robustness of the feature itself; i.e. the stronger and more interesting you make said feature, the more effort and resources it would cost. But such an argument ignores other avenues of profit making alts can provide. No one is arguing that adding a new race would take little effort, the meat of the argument here is the worth of such an addition. The opposition to an additional race doesn’t seem to take into account the subjectivity of the argument on both sides but rather one is subjective while the other is objective.

I think that you might have misunderstood my posts. You most definitely misunderstood the part of my post that you quoted.

I was arguing against including anything beyond aesthetics and roleplaying to justify a new playable race because those elements could be added without it.

I’ve also said that it’s up to Anet as to whether the benefits that a new playable race brings is worth the cost. Resources are finite. If resources are spent on one thing then they cannot be spent no something else.

kitten arguments always I hear are: too much work with armors and all the personal story kitten.

A game isn’t set in stone. Just set them at a different time, i.e. after the current events etc. and add a different story like in WoW with the death knights. Make some exlusive armor for them and ignore (most) of the rest. Done.

Aside of this they don’t see any gain with new races. In GW2 the race is just flavour. Nothing more. Gameplay wise there is nothing to gain. Still I would welcome Tengu be cause they are awesome!