Guild Wars 2

I find it interesting that we’ve brought up Skritt, Grawl, Centaur, Ogres, and a few other creratures, but no Krait. So I guess we’re all agreed that Krait are horrible slaving evil kittens that all deserve to die?

Tai Kratos.3247:

But again, you miss the point. While you may see games as just entertainment, I am one of those people who sees the potential in the video game medium for artistic merit.

Sir, I am the one that plays the a video game—designed to entertain—to be entertained. If anyone is missing the “point”, it’s you. You’re looking in the wrong place for culturally significant artistic expression, or whatever it is you’re looking for.

To that end, I will critique a video game as I would any other form of art, such as literature, art, or music. This isn’t about the entertainment value of the game – I find it very entertaining regardless of my issues with it – but if the story is weak and the lore is weak, I think it is due some criticism.

Fair, but let’s not pretend what you’re saying is any way meaningful or relevant. Your critique doesn’t make any kind of meaningful statement about the object of your criticism. It’s amusing to consider, in much the same way one might discuss the aerodynamic properties of an alarm clock, but ultimately pointless. The traits being discussed have nothing to do with the object they’re being applied to.

With that said, bring something worthwhile to the discussion, or take your “wit and wisdom” somewhere else.

As I just said a sentence ago, what’s being discussed (artistic merit) has nothing to do with Guild Wars 2 (an entertainment product). The discussion, then, is inherently worthless, thus anything I bring to it is at the least harmless to its value.

But by all means carry on.

Lets all try to remember that the things in a game are not real, and maybe we do need to remind ourselves of this. The ability to discern reality from fantasy isn’t impossible to maintain. We should all have the ability to realize that the rules that apply in an mmo, the fantasy setting, are not going to be the same rules we live our lives by in the real world.

My 10 year old daughter has no problems realizing the differences here, and although she takes great joy in killing the evil animals in this game she knows that she cannot do the same in the real world.

This is common sense stuff people. Lets keep the worlds seperate pls.

“I can’t tell if you’re a troll or some kind of bleeding heart activist that wants to protest Tyrian behaviors.”

And another forum stereotype shows there face. This one will try to demean the debate by asking whether or not the OP is a troll, and implies that if they aren’t then they’re out of their minds.

I may get flagged for this, but I’m getting tired of stupid people. If you disagree with my post, you can respond by saying something constructive, like a handful of people have. But you waste everyone’s time by posting garbage like this.

“You’re looking in the wrong place for culturally significant artistic expression, or whatever it is you’re looking for.”

Actually, I’m not. I’m sure if you spoke with a GW2 dev, they would tell you that GW2 means something more to them beyond its significance as a video game. Video games, in my opinion, have the possibility to be the ultimate art form: in it you have literature, you have art, you have music. To the devs, GW2 is probably not just a video game, it probably goes much deeper than that.

Granted, many games (God of War, CoD, Ratchet and Clank, WoW) I would not consider to be artistic. But GW2 has such incredible music and such incredible art design that I feel it can be more than just entertainment. With all of those wonderful things going for it, why not hold a high standard for the lore? Does it really hurt to question if things could be better?

" So I guess we’re all agreed that Krait are horrible slaving evil kittens that all deserve to die?"
I just never mentioned the Krait, actually, because I didn’t think of them, and there were no outstanding examples. But I’m fine with the way the Krait are treated because (1) they are treated consistently as villains, (2) you rarely go around harming them without cause. Usually your fights against them involve rescuing people who have been captured by them or who are being used as slaves. So if all the Skritt were malicious little thieves I wouldn’t mind killing them, no matter how adorable they are. But, once again, I will stress that the issue here is CONSISTENCY and CLARITY. If you have bothered to read previous posts, you would notice that people have addressed these concerns of mine in reasonable, intelligent ways.

It’s not that I’m getting wound up about this – I’m actually not “emotionally invested” in this at all – I just am critiquing something that deserves to be critiqued. If I was emotional about this, I would be getting upset by the amount of negative responses I’ve received so far. All I’m doing is debating with people and slapping down stupid people every now and then.

EDIT:
“Lets all try to remember that the things in a game are not real…”

Hahahahaha! Your post actually made me laugh, but not for the reasons you probably expected. Do you honestly think that I believe Tyria is a real place?

This has nothing to do with belief that Tyria and the Elder Dragons are real. This is about critiquing a story like any other story.

Corian.4068:

Fair, but let’s not pretend what you’re saying is any way meaningful or relevant.

Pfft. Says you. That’s your opinion, and while you’re certainly entitled to it, kindly refrain from stating it as though it is a fact.

Corian.4068:

As I just said a sentence ago, what’s being discussed (artistic merit) has nothing to do with Guild Wars 2 (an entertainment product).

I’m sorry? Artistic merit has nothing to do with an entertainment product? This makes absolutely no sense to me. The lack of artistic merit is not a defining feature of an entertainment product. Are your standards for entertainment really that low? Sure there are entertainment products (movies, books, games, etc.) that are extremely short on artistic merit… and I believe they are less valuable because of it. It doesn’t make them completely unworthy of consumption, no, but it’s certainly not something to aspire to.

Corian.4068:

The discussion, then, is inherently worthless, thus anything I bring to it is at the least harmless to its value.

Just…wow. You’ve decreed that this discussion is worthless? Well, then I guess we should all log off and get on with our day now. Nothing worthy to see here, folks. Corian has spoken. Move along, now. Shoo. Or, alternatively, Corian, if you find a discussion worthless, perhaps it would be wiser to simply not participate in it, and allow those who think it has value to carry on without you.

Tai Kratos has been talking about the writing and lore of the game that creates the context in which our actions take place. It’s not about game mechanics, or coding, or combat, or “bleeding heart activism” (please!), or the limitations of a persistent MMO world. This discussion resides almost exclusively in the realm of writing and storytelling. And I think he has a point that is certainly worthy of discussion.

Corian”

Sir, I am the one that plays the a video game—designed to entertain—to be entertained. If anyone is missing the “point”, it’s you. You’re looking in the wrong place for culturally significant artistic expression, or whatever it is you’re looking for.

Attempting to parse art from entertainment is facile and ignorant. Entertainment is any rewarding preoccupation. One of the aims of art is to make preoccupation with the artwork rewarding. The crossover is huge; they’re barely distinct subjects at all.

OP is complaining that ill-thought through aspects of the game are spoiling coherence, which in turn ruins his sense of immersion in the world. This is an ‘entertainment’ problem, not just an ‘art’ one. The game is failing to entertain him because it keeps reminding him, through its imperfect structure, that he’s a guy sitting in front of a computer screen tapping keys. The point of a game is to forget that and become involved in the ‘reality’ of the game.

This as true of chess as it is of snakes and ladders as it is of GW2. If you’re not involved in the game because aspects of it are baffling and inconsistent, you’re not being entertained.

Now, people like you might come along and say, “Well, I’m entertained – I have no problem”, but there will always be people who can say that, no matter how poorly designed a game is. Whereas if a game is improved then it usually entertains more people more thoroughly without sacrificing those who are already being entertained.

In other words, if the devs listen to OP’s feedback and try to improve the context around the encounters so that players are more informed about why certain tasks are morally upright and consistent with a heroic character, more people like the OP will enjoy the game, and people like you won’t even notice the difference. Good for the audience, good for the developer, good for everyone.

This discussion is not worthless.

Focksbot.6798:

text

Thanks for the kind words:)

You are right about the games you mentioned and their success. But I would attribute it more to the fact that they filled somewhat neglected niches – of course, in addition to their great gameplay. Speaking of gameplay, I think that’s the key, actually. If the game is undeniably good, large percent of job is already done. Now, that may sound silly, as in “if the game is good, than it’s good”

And, silly as it sounds, that’s what I am saying:)
What do I mean by that exactly?

I am 30 years old. So, I am young, but not teenager or adolescent anymore. Also, I like to read, mostly “heavy” classikittenerature, I am a painter and graphic artist by profession and I like to write occasionally, I also play guitar and sing – now, this is no “look at me” post, I am certain that I lack in numerous areas for every one that I am good at:)

Bottom line, I am a grownup, who has interest in key areas of game design. That said, I should be extremely sensitive to, say, weak plotlines or dialogues, bad artwork, music and such. Instead, I have realized I am actually most sensitive to actual distilled gameplay and interface. Of course, these vary greatly of a game’s genre, so I will split the immersion into “spirit imersion” and “trance immersion”, for the sake of discussion:)

Trance immersion – this goes for dynamic arcade games that demand direct control and muscle memory, quickness etc. Think quake, street fighter 2, super meat boy and such. If the core gameplay is good, than 99% of job is done. I mean, you don’t care if quake is unrealistic, naive and cliched, it provides phenomenal gameplay. And you find yourself immersed, you start to dodge rockets by ducking in your chair (true story) in addition to strafing in game:) You stop being in “oh, this level is hard” mode and step into “omg, three knights are chasing me, kittenhit kitten”. So, the core gameplay quality resulted in you being immersed as hell:)

Spirit immersion – reserved for games where gameplay is static or turn based, more chess like, where you think a lot, plan ahead and execution is something which your grandma could do the same as you if you tell her what to press. As these games clearly lack in a core dynamic gameplay department, they have to excel in other areas, such as plot, balance, graphics, “carrots”, setting, quantity of options, pleasant interface, generating addiction etc. For example, Civilization series.

And, we have hybrid games, that combine both factors. For example – GW2.

Two of the best “hybrid” MMORPG’s I have played are GW2 and WoW. With WoW having a clear edge to me at the moment. Now, I am not trying to provoke, I am talking about my subjective experience, so you might as well think “game x” and “game y”. I am presenting this comparative experience, as I want to (on my example, which doesn’t have to be objective or true for anybody else – but it might give insight to the concept) analyze what makes a “hybrid gameplay” game a good and immersive game to somebody.

I ventured into WoW pretty late, about two years ago. Reason for such late envolvement was, interestingly, that I wouldn’t want to have anything with that naive, ugly looking, cliched, populistic piece of crap:) So I bought it eventually, just to play some PvP with friends – basically, I wanted to play it exclusively as a “trance immersion” game. But, the unthinkable happened – I got “spirit-immersed” instead:)
Somehow, they have pulled it off. I mean, it’s still naive, ugly looking, cliched, populistic, but somehow the end result is not crap.

Now, to GW2 and later, I will wrap this up with a conclusion. I got into GW2 not overly hyped, I was indifferent, but I wanted to see the innovations and interesting concepts (dynamic events, quake-ish non-gear based PvP) etc. And while GW2’s delivery is more serious by looks, it failed to trigger the immersion in me. Both of them, as a matter of fact. Now, it’s not that I am not enjoying the game. But, “it” just isn’t happening.

It’s strange, really. For example, we have archetypal cliches in WoW, which are kitten to the point of absurdity. Also, I had aversion for the style of artwork and all the pop references etc. But somehow, I got immersed, and I got immersed quickly. I cared, I WANTED for the game to be cliched, because, when you are immersed, cliches are actually more epic than not (but it’s hard to get immersed with cliches). You know, similar to, I don’t know, Terminator 2, when Arnie says “there’s one more chip”. You KNOW all the time it has to happen, you KNOW it’s a million year old cliche, you KNOW he is a machine, you KNOW it’s overly pathetic. And still, you are on the verge of crying every time you see it. Delivery.

On the other hand, I found cliches in GW2 – annoying. We are Norn, we honor ancestors and like to drink and fight and we are large and loud and… – oh come on, stop spilling that viking dwarf valhalla animistic crap all the time….
Here, I must remind you that WoW has even more blatant cliches at every step, but somehow I found those enjoyable. Even if they were wrapped in silly goofy graphics with little fat people running around.

As for the “trance immersion” aspect of GW2 (which boils down to PvP really), I find it also lacking. But that’s no mystery in terms of why it is lacking, some serious work needs to be done in that area…

Now, after this little novel of mine, it’s time for a conclusion. Bottom line is – all those games mentioned (portal, tf2, torment) excel in areas that generate immersion, in one way or another. So, even if you stumble upon some strange thing or a bug or inconsistency, or cliche, you are more than willing (sometimes you even don’t notice it) to quickly shrug it off, so you could continue to reward yourself with that awesome game. Sometimes exactly the most cliched part gets you the most, like in Terminator 2. Because, if immersion is generated, cliches are actually more powerful than original stuff. IF immersion is generated. When it isn’t cliches are probably the worst thing that could happen.

I must also add, that I think GW2 has VERY little inconsistencies, when compared to other games. But, that’s exactly why this topic is important. The mere fact that the game with little number of inconsistencies bothers someone for that very reason, speaks for itself. Because, if delivery was spot on, you wouldn’t contemplate why some skritts are bad and some are neutral, but you would be like “omg nasty skritts, taste my SWORD, I don’t CARE what’s going on, you are the enemyyyy” instead:)

So I don’t think it’s important (or maybe even possible?) to know which element does what. For example, Portal is a great game – why? – because it’s a great game:) And I know that if Portal had five times more inconsistencies than GW2, that fact wouldn’t be changed. It would still be a great game (with a lot of inconsistencies:) ).

Personally, I blame this on publisher. I am sure A LOT of things were rushed and I mean, seriously rushed. I mean, potential is there, oh, it’s there alright. Great graphics, great races and classes, beautiful setting, responsive controls, perfect input lag, various builds, interesting weapon skill system, wvwvw, innovative aggro system and I’ll stop here just for the reason this post is long enough:)

ITT people discover that life is harsh and unforgiving even in games.

Chessrook.8643:

I find it interesting that we’ve brought up Skritt, Grawl, Centaur, Ogres, and a few other creratures, but no Krait. So I guess we’re all agreed that Krait are horrible slaving evil kittens that all deserve to die?

Well… yeah, that does sound like them actually.

minbariguy.7504:

Pfft. Says you. That’s your opinion, and while you’re certainly entitled to it, kindly refrain from stating it as though it is a fact.

Fair enough, but I’ll stand by what I said. It’s a safe assumption this discussion changes nothing about anything, including the opinions of everyone involved. Such is the nature of internet forums, and that is fact. The wonderful thing about my statement is that your disagreement would only serve to prove my point.

The other stuff you say, I’ll grant you it’s arrogant of me to pass a judgment on the discussion, but I’ll go on record as stating that it is no more arrogant than this discussion occuring to begin with, as if the product somehow has less value because it does not have artistic merit. Virtually none of the media we consume has any, because it’s hard to have artistic merit in a product that someone intends to make a profit on. Any kind of meaningful expression or statement is heavily compromised when there’s an intent to make money off of it.

You might say that’s the reality of the times we live in. I agree. Artistic merit is just not a consideration for commercially viable media. There is the rare exception, but GW2 isn’t one, imo.

Actually, I’m not. I’m sure if you spoke with a GW2 dev, they would tell you that GW2 means something more to them beyond its significance as a video game. Video games, in my opinion, have the possibility to be the ultimate art form: in it you have literature, you have art, you have music. To the devs, GW2 is probably not just a video game, it probably goes much deeper than that.

I’m all for video games as art. Unfortunately, AAA commercial releases are not the place to look for it, as discussed just above the quote. The devs are hyping their product. Their intent is to sell their product. They’re selling it to you, even if that means claiming that it’s something more than it is.

Don’t get me wrong, the visual design of GW2 is fantastic, and if you go back and play GW1, even in 2012, it’s still a very good looking game not on the technicals of the graphics, but the strength of the visual design. Jeremy Soule has also been one of my favorite VGM composers since I was enthralled by the Secret of Evermore soundtrack as a kid.

And even if the intent on the part of the devs is to create art (something I don’t doubt on an individual basis), the intent of their NCsoft overlords is to make a buck and nothing more. Like I just got done saying, this means any artistic merit is heavily compromised. Maybe by deadlines on storylines and writing. Maybe by budget cuts to voice recording. Maybe by the expectation that it is unimportant to the gameplay itself, and that the audience ultimately doesn’t care about the lore. But artistic merit is compromised to the point of insignificance, and this will not ever change.

Number one priority is accessible and sustainable gameplay, which means all manner of different things to kill. This is a gameplay decision, and not a lore one. The game telling you you’re a hero is not to strengthen the sense of immersion. It’s to make you, the player, feel good and powerful about playing the game and killing things, so that you continue to do so.

That’s the reason I’m dismissive towards this subject, because it’s irrelevant to the point of the game: to kill as many different things as you can find, for as long as you’re enjoying it. That said, and I believe it was brought up, if you look and talk to everyone, you will get a far better picture of the world than the typical player ever gets exposed to. Not just renown hearts. Talk to anyone with a name. Before you finish a heart. After. Before starting the action of a personal instance. During. After. Talk to the halloween scavenger hunt ghosts after you’ve gotten the book from them. You’d be amazed what you can find. That doesn’t make it art, but it may satisfy the OP’s need for context in the game world.

“Number one priority is accessible and sustainable gameplay, which means all manner of different things to kill. This is a gameplay decision, and not a lore one. The game telling you you’re a hero is not to strengthen the sense of immersion. It’s to make you, the player, feel good and powerful about playing the game and killing things, so that you continue to do so.”

You have just defined immersion with your last sentence:)
I mean, you feel good because you accomplished something which really isn’t an accomplishment if it’s not perceived from an immersion aspect. Your avatar “fought” zeros and ones and you feel good, although there is no non-immersion element which changed in your life.
Immersion is not when you think you’re the savior of Tyria, that’s medical condition:)
We could talk about degrees of immersion, but not whether immersion exists or not in your example.
I agree on the first part, though.

“Don’t get me wrong, the visual design of GW2 is fantastic, and if you go back and play GW1, even in 2012, it’s still a very good looking game not on the technicals of the graphics, but the strength of the visual design. Jeremy Soule has also been one of my favorite VGM composers since I was enthralled by the Secret of Evermore soundtrack as a kid.
And even if the intent on the part of the devs is to create art (something I don’t doubt on an individual basis), the intent of their NCsoft overlords is to make a buck and nothing more. Like I just got done saying, this means any artistic merit is heavily compromised. Maybe by deadlines on storylines and writing. Maybe by budget cuts to voice recording. Maybe by the expectation that it is unimportant to the gameplay itself, and that the audience ultimately doesn’t care about the lore. But artistic merit is compromised to the point of insignificance, and this will not ever change.”

And yet, art is one of the major selling points in those AAA games you talk about. We could take the most dreadful and idiotic oversimplified money-grabbing AAA title and we’ll see that the art aspect is in fact covered in good quality in various areas – modeling, concepts, illustration, cutscene directing, voice acting, cutscene photography, architecture etc.
The game itself may be only an unfortunate compilation of those and not a state of art by itself, but art is heavily present in and around the game.

“The other stuff you say, I’ll grant you it’s arrogant of me to pass a judgment on the discussion, but I’ll go on record as stating that it is no more arrogant than this discussion occuring to begin with, as if the product somehow has less value because it does not have artistic merit. Virtually none of the media we consume has any, because it’s hard to have artistic merit in a product that someone intends to make a profit on. Any kind of meaningful expression or statement is heavily compromised when there’s an intent to make money off of it.”
I strongly disagree. A good artist will make a good piece of art even with sole purpose to make money. Now, I don’t want to delve into the definition of art as that would be neverending and tedious discussion, but instead will remind you of Michelangelo’s money hoarding tendencies and the fact he was always in a mercenary mode.
Also, quality art is a good thing in every aspect and could only boost that product you talk about. That’s why Kekai worked on GW2 and I didn’t, even though I assume I am much more cost friendly:D But I am also considerably worse an artist, which is important, as we can see in various examples.

I logged in just to +1 this topic. I never pay attention to quest stories – I just do whatever I have to do and move on.

That’s the reason I’m dismissive towards this subject, because it’s irrelevant to the point of the game: to kill as many different things as you can find, for as long as you’re enjoying it.

People don’t enjoy it without successfully established context. That’s why games have plots, artwork etc.

Try bringing out a game where the player is a stickman who kills other randomly coloured stickmen on a black background for no reason. See if you can sell millions.

Doolio”

I got into GW2 not overly hyped, I was indifferent, but I wanted to see the innovations and interesting concepts (dynamic events, quake-ish non-gear based PvP) etc. And while GW2’s delivery is more serious by looks, it failed to trigger the immersion in me. Both of them, as a matter of fact. Now, it’s not that I am not enjoying the game. But, “it” just isn’t happening.

Sadly, this is pretty much a perfect summation of how I feel too. I come to this forum overflowing with suggestions for both the story part and the game mechanics part, because I look at it and thing, “They’ve done so much right”, but at the end of the day, it’s just doesn’t feel right.