Guild Wars 2

Hello all.

I am going to try to discuss my concern/question the best I can with the intention of avoiding flaming and/or ridicule. Please, this is not a discussion or comparison to WoW or any other MMO so do not reply with any insinuations.

The one thing that has me concerned about the game is what exactly will drive me to coniniously play. Now, we all know content is the driving force behind a healthy, extended career within the title; but another very important entity goes hand in hand. That is REWARD.

I understand and respect the philosophy that GW2 tries to make gear less of a necessity and more of a luxury. I commend them for it. But are skins or achievements enough to keep me going. The thing I loved most about MMOs is the social show off aspect of the genre. It is why I DO NOT play any other genres. Currently, the only reason to revisit more difficult content is to get skins and achievements. But there is nothing like getting a new item after completing content and having it reflect on your performance. It is a continuing show of your accomplishments for everyone to see. But, you may say that skins server the same purpose; but I say they do not. Upon finding a skin I fall in love with, I find it hard to want to do content that lacks reward. Now, I give you full permission to blame it on the fact that lack of innovation in other titles has forced me to think that a stat increase serves as the best “carrot on a stick”, but what this thread is is a plea to show me otherwise.

What in this game is going to make me want to keep completing content and pushing forward? Many people knock implementations such as DPS meters, but one HUGE aspect of such addons was something very rarely mentioned. The battle with the man in the mirror. The constant competing with yourself to top what you did last. Whether it be in a dungeon or elsewhere.

Maybe this is more along the lines of a PVE discussion since PVP gives you the name and the respect of building a reputation. But to me, in PVE, nothing is better than looking ridiculously strong in front of other people because you completed content they couldn’t or haven’t yet.

I see many positives in this gear system GW2 has invoked but this flaw is lingering ever so heavily. It feels like too much of a casual approach. Yes, I applaud how much GW2 feels like an old school MMO with the openness and difficulty scale, but why should I be on the same playing field and someone who hasn’t done what I have done. What if a person who doesn’t have half my skill gets the skin he loves and looks just as badkitten as I do, yet he hasn’t done a third of the content I have?

Let me stand out. Let me be stronger to others for defeating STRONGER content. ArenaNet… let me be rewarded.

What are your plans?

P.S. Please make achievements and other aspects show in guild chat. No one sees the thing and my guild of 45 members is like a ghost town. GChat needs to be more active.

It wouldn’t be so bad if the DE/Hearts/Meta events/Dungeons boils down to a handful of categories that just get repeated over and over.

No.

This is precisely what has drawn many of us to this MMO. There are plenty of other MMOs who have what you prefer. This game is for those of us who have different preferences.

Art.7628:

Let me stand out. Let me be stronger to others for defeating STRONGER content. ArenaNet… let me be rewarded.

You’re asking them to change a core concept that was decided during the development of the game, something we’ve known about for a long time:

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

Deal with it. You’re rewarded with cosmetic gear that allows you to stand out. If that’s not enough, this game isn’t for you; you want a carrot chase, and that runs antithetical to the game’s philosophy.

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.
You can spend extra time on your 80 to get true badarse looking gear, but you’re not going to auto-win PvP and PvE because of it.

knightblaster.8027:

No.

This is precisely what has drawn many of us to this MMO. There are plenty of other MMOs who have what you prefer. This game is for those of us who have different preferences.

I totally agree with this. Every MMO does not have to be yet another ego-stroking contest for hardcore elitists whose only sense of accomplishment is shoving how “leet” they are in other people’s faces.

…ever think that the casual trend of MMOs came about because of those people?

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

Cik, tissue?

I’m sure there are games that cater to your likes. Also, that video is only opinion, and a petty pretentious one at that. Your complaining is amusing.

As for the OP, no thanks. Been there, done that. I’m sick of ’those games’. Loving the system here.

Heh watched the video.This guy has the logic of a 5 year old."An mmo must have role playing in it because it’s called an “mmoRPG” and that stands for ROLE PLAYING duuuuh".

The whole thing was so dumb that it made me feel embarrased.

It’s probably just me, but I don’t want a game to make me want to play. I want to play because the game is fun. If I need a carrot on a stick to force me to play a game, there’s something very wrong with the game.

Cik

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

Holy crap, that is some of the most ignorant swill I’ve ever had the displeasure of listening to. Never show that guy an FPS game, his head would probably explode when he finds out there’s no way you can grind for an aimbot.

Please don’t take this as disrespect op when I say this, but I think you and people with your mindset need to change your way of thinking from the narrow vision of what MMOs were in the past.

GW2 is trying to move the genre forward not just in gameplay but in a business format , and away from the kinds of threadmills other MMOs offered. See the thing with the competition is they want you to keep playing. The GW games were never really like that, it was always a pick it up for a while and if you get bored drop it and come back again when/if you want.

They didn’t care if you stopped playing for half a year, they got your 60 bucks already, if you’re bored come back when they have another expansion.

Amlin.6041:

They didn’t care if you stopped playing for half a year, they got your 60 bucks already, if you’re bored come back when they have another expansion.

THIS.

I mean, seriously people, ArenaNet have said God only knows how many times that they expect some players to eat up content and leave until there’s new stuff to do.

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.
You can spend extra time on your 80 to get true badarse looking gear, but you’re not going to auto-win PvP and PvE because of it.

No, you are just going to zerg it instead, because thats all I see in pve and pvp.

Salt.4621:

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.
You can spend extra time on your 80 to get true badarse looking gear, but you’re not going to auto-win PvP and PvE because of it.

No, you are just going to zerg it instead, because thats all I see in pve and pvp.

When it comes to pvp.. why do you need to zerg? For me, the fun part of pvp is venturing off alone and looking for people to stalk lol

Much more fun to find a victim and catch them off guard. Even better when you’re going 2 or even 3v1. The ‘zerg’ rushing is just a side aspect in WvW to me.

the rewards are there if you put in the time and effort. however, GW2’s end game is legendary crafting, explorable dungeons, achievements, WvW, and spvp. not bad at all, lots to do (for me anyway). the game’s endgame is not gear grinding because content is not gear-dependent. i mean, you can choose to make grinding your endgame, but you likely wont be happy. if you need constant endgame “stats” progression, GW2 is not your game friends.

Salt.4621:

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.
You can spend extra time on your 80 to get true badarse looking gear, but you’re not going to auto-win PvP and PvE because of it.

No, you are just going to zerg it instead, because thats all I see in pve and pvp.

i figured these types of comments out. people hide behind the “zerg” argument due to their confusion about the game’s core mechanics, and general unwillingness to try new things. when youre kinda lost out there, you’ll join a zerg, which can be a boring experience

arguably, zerging is not a problem. not in WvW, because you will achieve more by spreading out gangs across the map to assault supply camps and towers. most of us are starting to realize this now. zerging in spvp will lead to a very quick loss. zerging in dungeons is basically impossible cuz everyone will die to aoe.

zerging in poorly scaled DE’s and aoe tagging is a problem but JP has acknowledged this and stated that theyre working on it.

Not being all about the gear is why I’m playing GW2 and not wow so why should people try to compete with a game that has a large community by becomming it OP?

For all the people saying go to another game… or “deal with it”, read the entire post. You sound incredibly stupid jumping to the conclusion I am asking for them to make content rewards stronger gear.

The whole point of the thread was to implore ArenaNet to tell me what besides cosmetics is going to make me play the game for long periods of time. The problem with skins is once you find one that you like, there is no point to farming more.

So, again, has there been something announced that I am missing? Are there things to come I am missing? I am explaining how REWARD plays a tremendous role in the longevity of an MMO. It is what keeps people going.

So what will be the carrot in this game? The whole “it is skins, deal with it or leave” is not a good mentality to have. And if you were around during SWTOR development and failure, you would see that that very attitude led to its demise.

Grow up and if you plan on discussing the thread—read it. Otherwise you make yourself sound exactly how you are contrasting. Stop arguing with yourself.

I think a plausible solution that retains the integrity of the ANet’s “equal-footing” policy would be to implement achievement specific armor and weapons.

Imagine a weapon or armor set exclusively for 100% world exploration, attaining slayer titles, or just reviving people? Using a system much like the Hall of Monuments would enable these skins to be applied whenever you want.

This would help players feel distinguished from others while keep the playing field level.

But if you want to feel the difference between you and other players, try WvW

For me, transmutation and the occasional chance to get a rare skins from low level content makes the idea that the skins are the elite marker ridiculous. Add to that 1,000 name variations of every visible shade of dye and the notion crumbles. That doesn’t mean it isn’t fixable. I’m going to try to put some ideas in the suggestion forum, because there is way too much butter and not nearly enough carrot as things lie.

Right Loxias, which is where I stand.

I am not saying that it has to be stat increases or unfair advantage, but as good as this game is with the potential it has—without a proper rewards system the game will fall to MOP. I do not want to see this happen.

Also, without the separation of who puts the time in, it just becomes a glorified co-op game, not an MMO. FPS/SPRPG elements do not work as a form of end game (my definition of end game differs as it means continuous play to me).

It must not be something that gives a time-rich player a power advantage over other players.

knightblaster.8027:

It must not be something that gives a time-rich player a power advantage over other players.

This is a concept that’s going over a lot of peoples’ heads.

Plenty of games out there that will stroke your ego and let you “show off” your awesomeness by having a sword +100 instead of a sword +95.

Here’s a good read on this subject.

I got in to WoW pretty late (leveled my first toon in BC) and what I discovered was that a large and very interesting part of the game (raiding) was always going to be cut off for me because by the time I got to lvl 70 all the raiding guilds demanded raiding level gear in order to join which meant I was stuck in a catch 22.

Even during The Lich King when I decided to level up fast and get a guild before everyone was geared I failed because now everyone wanted people with previous raiding experiences, not to mention they were always looking for a specific class/role. So I played a really popular class. kitten me right?

I’m well aware there are upsides to gear progression, but for all the problems it makes, me and many other people have really grown to hate it. Some people will have you think that Anet changed things justfor change’s sake. But anyone who has had the experience I had will know their decisions were well thought out and that they made a lot of people happy.

I agree with some things the OP says. Dungeons right now are way too easy to farm, meaning “prestige” armor from dungeons isn’t really an indication that you did something really challenging, since most people who have them just did an easy farm route over and over.

I don’t agree with other things. Why should someone who hasn’t played as long have lower damage and lower defenses than you? Having a system like that doesn’t add to the quality to the game, playing longer doesn’t make you a better player, and not having the game bogged down by that idiotic premise makes the game better.

Being a better player makes you a better player, and yes the game should have some better ways to reflect that. SPvP doesn’t even have any kind of ladder, and most PvE achievements are worthless.

Cerise

Dungeons right now are way too easy to farm, meaning “prestige” armor from dungeons isn’t really an indication that you did something really challenging, since most people who have them just did an easy farm route over and over.

ArenaNet took some steps to curb this recently. Now people are flooding the forums complaining about it. XD

DusK.3849:

Cerise

Dungeons right now are way too easy to farm, meaning “prestige” armor from dungeons isn’t really an indication that you did something really challenging, since most people who have them just did an easy farm route over and over.

ArenaNet took some steps to curb this recently. Now people are flooding the forums complaining about it. XD

They are still way too easy to farm, it just takes more time now.

What I’m saying is, imagine how much whining there would be if ANet found a good way to make those dungeons impossible to farm effectively.

I would love it.

I wouldn’t love it if they made the game more tedious and less fun to play.

Making the game numerically harder just causes frustration and is a cheap way out. Engaging content isn’t formed from scaled difficulty based on numbers, it is when it is scaled based on mechanics. In a case like WoW, they mix them both.

Now, while I agree that innovating away from the gear grind is a good idea and I am in NO WAY saying ArenaNet should change their philosophy.

What I am saying is that a game that has longevity (which we hope GW2 to have) does not turn away a certain demographic, it welcomes all kinds of players. Currently, GW2 pushes away anyone who doesn’t like cosmetics.

No matter how engaging the content, one thing is for certain among MMO players. We want to be REWARDED. There is a large number of players that simply DO NOT care about armor dyes, titles, achievements and rare skins. ArenaNet needs to find a way to reward these types of players or it is going to lose to WOW and MOP due to their ability to cater to every kind of player.

It is as simple as that. It is not that the current reward system is bad. It just simply is not enough. There are too many gaps for certain players and the rewards system seems too casual. While casual may make up the general player base in today’s MMOs, it is usually the heavy players that dictate it’s future.

Art, I think you are missing the point.

Many are fine with the cosmetic rewards. They do the dungeons for fun, knowing they don’t want the content. They want to complete the world, and they already have the look they want.

This is their game. If they run out of content, they’ll quit and come back later. It’s free.

If others are disappointed and feel “done”, then they are disappointed and done. They played the game and finished it, and it doesn’t really apply to them. They most likely are going to enjoy a different type of MMO. GW2 doesn’t need to be the “everything” MMO.

Anet can always patch in new content and a new direction. But that is guessing at far off down the line. For now, it is not what this game is.

Basically, enough of the playerbase is fine with the current system of rewards. WoW and the MMOs like it, the playerbase wanted stat progression but others hated it. GW2 is for the “others hated it” group. Stat progression is no longer an element, and it is about fun. If you aren’t having fun anymore, you really are done until new content brings you back. No sub, so we can feel guilt free about that.

Just take a break until it appeals again.

Cik.6479:

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

My goodness… I couldn’t sit through more than 5 minutes of that guy. Soooooo arrogant.

This game gives everyone the same stats. So… the only thing that matters in PvP is your team’s execution of PvP strategies and such……… which some would construe as…. gasp SKILL!!

There are no Rambo or terminator hero’s in server verses server .
.
To be effective and succeed in a team against team event the participants have to actually communicate and form a strategy and all work together to execute the strategy .
In real life War one soldier killing an opposing soldier ,will not win the war ,but as part of a larger team taking strategic points and reinforcing them to attack the enemy would be a winning strategy .
In the game environment of gw2 you as an individual will not succeed in world versus world unless the server works together .
You could in the extreme walk into the borderlands naked and at the end of the week your server could have won the war .
The front lines could take the enemy positions and you in your underwear could build seige equipment ,upgrade your keep ,reinforce it when it s maxed sit on a trebuchet in your underpants and own multiple invading forces .
With all the seige equipment available it is a bit silly to run into a group of enemies with your peashooter lengendary weapon ,can it take a door down or a wall or 20 man zerg ,or would placing a piece of seige equipment in the right position do the job better ?

teamwork with strategy and the right seige equipment = win .
Focus on your personal equipment and 90% crit with full legendary and running into battle with just your legendary rifle and greatsword will win some personal battles but alone will = fail.

Art.7628:

Let me stand out. Let me be stronger to others for defeating STRONGER content. ArenaNet… let me be rewarded.

Do not want. Plenty other games with this. Go play them.

Art.7628:

There is a large number of players that simply DO NOT care about armor dyes, titles, achievements and rare skins.

Or gameplay. But, that leaves pretty much nothing other than higher numbers. So… no. No higher numbers for you.

Hsinimod.5784:

Basically, enough of the playerbase is fine with the current system of rewards.

Not singling you out or anything, however it does irk me a bit when people make blanket generalizations and speak for other people. Only a small percentage of a player base will visit a games forums. Even fewer players will actually contribute by posting.

That being said……. would you mind citing where you are finding data for this demographic? Perhaps there is someone compiling this data and I havent heard about it. My guess is that its your opinion and frankly I am not interested in blanket statements based on opinion.

Dear OP. The things you do not like so much are the reasons why I’m playing this game and not WoW or the any of the other gear-train games. I like the fact that I can (and have) reach 80 and not feel obligated to raid and gear grind in order to continue to enjoy (or simply just play) the game.

I’m happy that we all have a choice now. Those who love the typical grinds and max-level gear train MMOs can play WoW, TERA, Rift etc. and people like me can play GW2

Cik.6479:

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

Thanks for wasting 10 minutes of my life.

This guy is a kitten who doesn’t actually have a POINT.

He whines about lack of “skill” then says, outright that gear collection equals skill.

Not funny to put this here. At all.

I agree there are massive problems with pvp, but the equalization of levels isn’t one of them. Yes, it needs some rebalancing. But his whole point seems to be that what you collect in the pve world should make a difference in pvp.

No. Just no. Being invulnerable because of time spent grinding is STUPID. It has nothing to do with player skill. At all.

So… lots of juvenile felines at you.

The end.

Hsinimod.5784:

Art, I think you are missing the point.

Many are fine with the cosmetic rewards. They do the dungeons for fun, knowing they don’t want the content. They want to complete the world, and they already have the look they want.

This is their game. If they run out of content, they’ll quit and come back later. It’s free.

If others are disappointed and feel “done”, then they are disappointed and done. They played the game and finished it, and it doesn’t really apply to them. They most likely are going to enjoy a different type of MMO. GW2 doesn’t need to be the “everything” MMO.

Anet can always patch in new content and a new direction. But that is guessing at far off down the line. For now, it is not what this game is.

Basically, enough of the playerbase is fine with the current system of rewards. WoW and the MMOs like it, the playerbase wanted stat progression but others hated it. GW2 is for the “others hated it” group. Stat progression is no longer an element, and it is about fun. If you aren’t having fun anymore, you really are done until new content brings you back. No sub, so we can feel guilt free about that.

Just take a break until it appeals again.

Actually, I think it is you who is missing the point. Unfortunately you derive your opinion and state statistics that do not exist. Such as “most players”.

Only time will tell the future and longevity of this title and I am only posting my opinions on what I believe will be an undesirable outcome. Which brings me to the second point where I think you are incredible misinformed or falling short of understanding ArenaNet’s goal. Their goal, despite what you believe/use to support your post, is to compete with WoW. A perfect example of this was their recent trailer. It was an obvious foreshadowing.

I appreciate you keeping things mature and I am not berating you in any way. I like having an educated discussion/debate. Just wanted to put that out there in case I seem a bit hostile in my replies.

The baseless “this game takes skill”, “we want an even playing field” and “cosmetics are enough reward” among other arguments against DPS meters and gauging all fall under one category to me. That category isn’t innovation or success… it’s casual/carebear/easy mode.

This game’s innovation has a lot of potential and I would hate to see it ruined by masking an inability to provide proper reward/reaching out to all types of players due to the casual market… once again.

Unfortunately right now, people are confusing innovation with appealing to the casual. This doesn’t work for longevity. It has been proven over and over again.

Art

Their goal, despite what you believe/use to support your post, is to compete with WoW.

I’m sure you have a source for this (LOL you don’t, we both know it). Maybe one that contradicts what Colin Johanson says about not considering WoW direct competition in this video.

And funny, you throwing “casual” around like an insult. Especially considering that, with most games, anything that would allow a player of lesser skill to beat a player of greater skill (such as better gear) is considered the “casual” element of said game.

I like the idea of cosmetic ahievment armor.

/shrug… I played a ton of FPS games years ago like Unreal Tournament with no tracking of progress and had a blast. I think we see the “Call of Duty” effect where people have to have some illusion of progress in order to have the illusion of “fun”.

carlvjack.8941:

/shrug… I played a ton of FPS games years ago like Unreal Tournament with no tracking of progress and had a blast.

No. You didn’t have fun. Your numbers didn’t go up, so there was no fun to be had.

Alright, I couldn’t type that with a straight face. Seriously, good example of how a game can stand on its own solely by providing fun core gameplay.

gurugeorge.9857:

Art.7628:

Let me stand out. Let me be stronger to others for defeating STRONGER content. ArenaNet… let me be rewarded.

Do not want. Plenty other games with this. Go play them.

Its disgusting you actually got a vote up. To everyone engaged in this conversation you made yourself look like an idiot.

Read the entire OP or don’t post. Stop expecting people to take your opinion into consideration while being completely inconsiderate.

P.S. You sound just like the SWTOR forums did…. Learn something.

Art.7628:

The baseless “this game takes skill”, “we want an even playing field” and “cosmetics are enough reward” among other arguments against DPS meters and gauging all fall under one category to me. That category isn’t innovation or success… it’s casual/carebear/easy mode.

This game’s innovation has a lot of potential and I would hate to see it ruined by masking an inability to provide proper reward/reaching out to all types of players due to the casual market… once again.

Unfortunately right now, people are confusing innovation with appealing to the casual. This doesn’t work for longevity. It has been proven over and over again.

I’m sorry. I didn’t understand any of what you wrote. You seem to think there is something about games that isn’t casual. You also seem to think (without providing anything remotely like evidence) that things supporting your view have been “proven over and over again.”

You also mentioned DPS meters which I didn’t see anywhere in the discussion until you mentioned them.

Would you mind starting over so I can try to understand your viewpoint?

Thanks!

Completely disagree with the OP. This game is a different game, one which most of us came to play specifically because of the no gear disparity thing. In my opinion, there is already too much gear as it is.