Guild Wars 2

Just wanted to add that with the pvp in this game, playing without gear disparity IS skill, and OP is the one who wants easymode by farming his dungeons then pwning it up in pvp with his imbalanced farmed gear. We see through you.

Art.7628:

Actually, I think it is you who is missing the point. Unfortunately you derive your opinion and state statistics that do not exist. Such as “most players”.

No, it’s you that is missing he point.

If GW2 didn’t exist, ANet still has several million game sales and a persistent player base over seven years time with GW1, a game that was even more blunt with the “skins is all ye get!” design philosophy to understand exactly the whys and whats of what they’re doing with the carrotless endgame.

There was some stupid hard content in parts of that game that you were not going to be doing with heroes, were not going to be doing with just any old PUG, and were not going to be doing with just any old build. Yet, tons of people got the necessary teams and gear together, practiced, and mastered the stupid hard content essentially for skins.

So, they already know it works for a lot of people, but they also already know a lot of people aren’t motivated by it and get off their servers and stop costing them money. As long as those people feel like they got their money’s worth, they’ll be back when there’s new content, paid or otherwise.

They’ve provided a game that can entertain the right audience pretty much indefinitely with the same design philosophy that kept the servers up and running for over seven years with GW1, so long as the rest of the players go do something else feeling happy about their experience, it’s a win-win. If you think about it for even a little bit, you have to realize that there clearly never was any intention whatsoever to try and keep every person who buys this game occupied continuously for the next 18 (or even 6) months straight.

Approaching a straight up buy to play MMORPG that doesn’t even have enough universally appealing cash shop stuff to do much more than represent a four month subscription fee for a traditional MMO and then asking why they haven’t designed the game around the more widely appealing constant carrot mechanics to keep you playing non-stop shows a lack of deep thinking about how all the pieces fit together to make something like this actually work.

DusK.3849:

Art

Their goal, despite what you believe/use to support your post, is to compete with WoW.

I’m sure you have a source for this (LOL you don’t, we both know it). Maybe one that contradicts what Colin Johanson says about not considering WoW direct competition in this video.

And funny, you throwing “casual” around like an insult. Especially considering that, with most games, anything that would allow a player of lesser skill to beat a player of greater skill (such as better gear) is considered the “casual” element of said game.

Maybe you should read the second sentence of my statement. The trailer was an obvious foreshadowing. Also, you are using the context of his statement to support your post when in fact, it does not. They do not CONSIDER them direct competition because of the different transaction model, but that does not mean it is not competing with it. Releasing a game within a genre automatically makes you compete with any other title within that genre. The current GW2 MT model and non-subscription model is genius because no game is going to compete with WoW for a subscription (since most players will not subscribe to more than one game), especially with MOP on the horizon of GW2’s release. It would be suicide if they decided on a subscription model and not obtaining the many players they did by not having one. For example: most players would not even have purchased the box if there was a subscription model as opposed to getting the game into many more homes by not having that stipulation.

Also, my whole point is not to bash casuals. I just believe there should be sufficient amount of reward for every type of player. Casual and hardcore included. Currently, the reward system and structure seems very casual oriented and does not cater to those not interested in cosmetics.

Another thing, if it may seem like I am using casual as an insult—I very may be in certain situations. I think way too many time casuals continuously stomp their feet on forums or wherever and get their way. When, in fact, they do not even know what THEY want due to extreme inexperience. A perfect example of this would be combat log discussions on the SWTOR forums.

Love to stay and chat with the OP, but let’s just keep it short and sweet – too bad, the game isn’t going to make changes for you. The game is designed around having no gear disparity. Learn to play with these rules – if you’re so much better than a casual I’m sure you can learn to handle it :P

Chip H.3951:

Art.7628:

Actually, I think it is you who is missing the point. Unfortunately you derive your opinion and state statistics that do not exist. Such as “most players”.

No, it’s you that is missing he point.

If GW2 didn’t exist, ANet still has several million game sales and a persistent player base over seven years time with GW1, a game that was even more blunt with the “skins is all ye get!” design philosophy to understand exactly the whys and whats of what they’re doing with the carrotless endgame.

There was some stupid hard content in parts of that game that you were not going to be doing with heroes, were not going to be doing with just any old PUG, and were not going to be doing with just any old build. Yet, tons of people got the necessary teams and gear together, practiced, and mastered the stupid hard content essentially for skins.

So, they already know it works for a lot of people, but they also already know a lot of people aren’t motivated by it and get off their servers and stop costing them money. As long as those people feel like they got their money’s worth, they’ll be back when there’s new content, paid or otherwise.

They’ve provided a game that can entertain the right audience pretty much indefinitely with the same design philosophy that kept the servers up and running for over seven years with GW1, so long as the rest of the players go do something else feeling happy about their experience, it’s a win-win. If you think about it for even a little bit, you have to realize that there clearly never was any intention whatsoever to try and keep every person who buys this game occupied continuously for the next 18 (or even 6) months straight.

Approaching a straight up buy to play MMORPG that doesn’t even have enough universally appealing cash shop stuff to do much more than represent a four month subscription fee for a traditional MMO and then asking why they haven’t designed the game around the more widely appealing constant carrot mechanics to keep you playing non-stop shows a lack of deep thinking about how all the pieces fit together to make something like this actually work.

Okay, this is not the same point you were making previously. Also, I am not even sure what or who you are arguing with here.

I partly agree and when you state that players will come back when there is content that appeals to them is partly what I want. I don’t know when this became a discussion as to ArenaNet’s goals, but you are still obviously missing my point.

I do not know any other reward system that properly appeals to those not interested in cosmetics and considers themselves hardcore (as I consider myself) besides gear progression. Which is why I created this thread. The whole point was to implore ArenaNet to creating a reward system that caters to my demographic so I can enjoy the game as I have done other MMOs that delivered in the past.

Please, reevaluate your argument and stop fighting with yourself.

i think gw2 has plenty of carrot, but not enough to detract from the fun.

Art.7628:

Please, reevaluate your argument and stop fighting with yourself.

That’s very impressive (me fighting with myself) considering that’s the first time I posted to this thread.

I’ll just put it like this: I played over 2500 hours of GW1 on and off over five years time. Averaged out, I played the game over an hour for every single day from the day I bought the GOTY edition of Prophecies. I was at max level with all my various characters with max stat gear for at least 90% of those over 2500 hours. The only things I was still improving at the end were ultra rare, ultra expensive to buy on the market, and ultra optional things like the quality of vigor runes I had on my heroes.

Now, if that’s not hardcore and motivated enough for you, I don’t know what I or anyone else can say that is going to convince you that, although you might not be the best fit for this game design, there is nothing wrong with skins and S&Gs for providing motivation.

@OP – do you like personal achievements? Or are you just into more powerful gear than other people? Seems you don’t like hard to get gear just for its own sake (dungeon skins)…so what’s your idea of a good carroting?

Ideas/suggestions:

More puzzles. Jump an otherwise.
More events, dynamic and just interesting based on NPCs.
More reasons to move to lower level zones.

… never mind.

I just realized that the developers must know this. And they chose not to do it for some reason.

Given that, I think it’s time to wait for the true next generation to come out.

Love ya,

Good talk.

Art.7628:

Maybe you should read the second sentence of my statement. The trailer was an obvious foreshadowing. Also, you are using the context of his statement to support your post when in fact, it does not. They do not CONSIDER them direct competition because of the different transaction model, but that does not mean it is not competing with it. Releasing a game within a genre automatically makes you compete with any other title within that genre. The current GW2 MT model and non-subscription model is genius because no game is going to compete with WoW for a subscription (since most players will not subscribe to more than one game), especially with MOP on the horizon of GW2’s release. It would be suicide if they decided on a subscription model and not obtaining the many players they did by not having one. For example: most players would not even have purchased the box if there was a subscription model as opposed to getting the game into many more homes by not having that stipulation.

You should look up the definition of the word foreshadowing.

You’re also forgetting the fact that ANet didn’t go with the subscription model not because “no game is going to compete with WoW for a subscription”, they went with B2P because a subscription fee pays for absolutely nothing. WoW made over double in box sales alone what it cost to maintain the game during the same time frame. A subscription fee for an MMO in this day and age is, quite literally, free money going straight to the execs and shareholders.

You’re trading reality for speculation. A key designer of this game flat-out states, well before release, that they don’t intend to compete with WoW. And yet, you think your viewpoint on a trailer somehow erases all of that.

Art.7628:

Also, my whole point is not to bash casuals. I just believe there should be sufficient amount of reward for every type of player. Casual and hardcore included. Currently, the reward system and structure seems very casual oriented and does not cater to those not interested in cosmetics.

And thus, you feel that people who are “hardcore” should get a stat advantage over those that aren’t. That’s really what this boils down to, and guess what? That contradicts the philosophy this game was built on. Deal with it, because it’s not going to change. Altering the game in that way would be a slap in the face to all those who bought the game for what it is.

Art.7628:

Another thing, if it may seem like I am using casual as an insult—I very may be in certain situations. I think way too many time casuals continuously stomp their feet on forums or wherever and get their way. When, in fact, they do not even know what THEY want due to extreme inexperience. A perfect example of this would be combat log discussions on the SWTOR forums.

And some guy with a short man complex stomping his feet on the forums going on about how some people deserve to have better stats than someone else just because they play more than any person reasonably should is somehow different?

I do not know any other reward system that properly appeals to those not interested in cosmetics and considers themselves hardcore (as I consider myself) besides gear progression. Which is why I created this thread. The whole point was to implore ArenaNet to creating a reward system that caters to my demographic so I can enjoy the game as I have done other MMOs that delivered in the past.

And therein lies the problem.

This is fundamentally a political dispute between two different parts of the gaming community about (1) game design and (2) how ongoing developer resources should be spent. It has therefore the hallmarks of a political discussion, in that it is both ideological and practical/spoils oriented.

Your demographic wants it to be more about differentiation between your self-styled elite, hardcore selves and everyone else.

My demographic wants it to be more about an equal playing field where the time-rich don’t have an advantage over the time-poor.

This dispute is fundamental and not incidental. It defines who we are as gamers. And in the context of this game, it is a line of demarcation for many of us who are frankly quite sick and tired of seeing every single frigging MMO cater to the endgame gear progression crowd, repeating a tired concept that simply creates caste systems in games based on time richness and time poverty.

This game is a beachhead for our side. So, yes, many of us defend these design decisions doggedly and with considerable passion. We are passionate gamers like you are, but we do not accept a system that rewards you time-rich at our expense. Arena’s philosophy has always reflected our priorities, and still does. It provides for differentiation in appearance (which appeals to the kitten of vanity), while disallowing differentiation in power based simply on time richness.

Therefore, we support this design, and we fight, fight, fight, fight those of you from the time-rich camp who want to see this game remade to suit the interests of yourselves, when every other frigging MMO is designed with your interests in mind.

Art you keep saying that you would like Arenanet to change its approach or else it is “going to lose to WoW.” Arenanet is not competing with WoW. They make games that they like and believe a group of customers like.

GW1 and GW2 were not made to compete with WoW. They were made to offer the market something different. Arenanet designed GW2 to restore the fun that has been missing in many MMOs. Gear grind is not fun for many. Getting beat down simply because someone has better gear is not fun for many. Even doing things that offer bragging rights is not fun for many. Would you be on Blizzard forums asking them to remove the “holy trinity” because WoW may lose out to GW2?

Arenanet is a box sales-driven business model. They have already made 2 million in sales. No matter what MOP does, Arenanet has achieved its success. Now they are moving forward with fixing bugs, stabilizing the game and introducing new, free content. Their focus is on their game not WoW.

So, the carrot… It’s missing.

I don’t think stat increases are more rewarding than rare skins. The best stats should be easy to obtain, but the prestige skins very definately shouldn’t. I would like to see them add a lot more titles (and make titles more visible) and skins and make them harder to get that what there is now.

You bring up WoW, but the titles and mounts in WoW are a lot more rewarding than gear and those are vanity items like GW2 armour skins. If you log on to WoW right now, what’s more rewarding – some old piece of T6 (remembering that no-one even knows whether you got it at the time or in a retro raid) or a Hand of A’dal title?

Gear gets DEed pretty quickly, sitting on an Amani Warbear displaying Hand of A’dal will last as long as WoW does. It’s also infinitely more impressive with the way Blizz hand out epics nowadays.

GW1 had a lot of stuff that was very time consuming to get (the God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals title for example). They just need to add something along those lines to GW2. No need for stat increases.

People spent a lot of time farming GW1 for ecto gloves, tormented weapons and obsidian armour as well as a lot of titles. The hardcore types look awesome and you can spot them a mile off, but the stats are the same as fairly easy to get (but still cool looking) 15k prestige armour.

They were really on to something with this mixture of stuff so I do hope we see more hard to get items added.

If everyone has equal stats you can also very clearly see who is good at the game and who isn’t, you don’t need superior stats to show you’re good at dungeons. The fact that you aren’t lying dead in a fire shows that.

I still don’t understand people who, like the OP, insist to make GW2 “fit the mold”. Those people have tons of WoW clones (and WoW itself, new expansion got released) to play, with all the gear tier grinds they “enjoy” so much, yet they want to turn this game into another one.

I can tell you one thing… the day ANet turns this into another WoW like gear grind where stats matter more than skill, I will stop playing, and of course not buy future expansions or any cash shop items (I’ve already spend 40€ in the shop). GW2 gets my money because it’s different. Because it reminds me AC1 where player skill mattered more than gear. Change that, and I’m gone (and I’m willing to bet I’m not a minority).

Art.7628:

What if a person who doesn’t have half my skill gets the skin he loves and looks just as badkitten as I do, yet he hasn’t done a third of the content I have?

This I find contradicting in your argument. If the gear would become stronger and stronger then people can beat all the content even with only half your skill. But if you need to beat the content without stat increases to get that skin as a reward, then that person did have the skills needed.

So then there is only the amount of time played that is a factor then. You can discuss whether you are more entitled to skins than new players. Seeing there is no subscription and other skins are available for gems I would say you are not.

Art.7628:

gurugeorge.9857:

Art.7628:

Let me stand out. Let me be stronger to others for defeating STRONGER content. ArenaNet… let me be rewarded.

Do not want. Plenty other games with this. Go play them.

Its disgusting you actually got a vote up. To everyone engaged in this conversation you made yourself look like an idiot.

Read the entire OP or don’t post. Stop expecting people to take your opinion into consideration while being completely inconsiderate.

P.S. You sound just like the SWTOR forums did…. Learn something.

Huh? What are you talking about? SWTOR was a typical gear grind MMO.

GW2 is not. Some of us here like it that way, and will strongly disagree with any call, like yours, to change it to (what we perceive as) the same-old, same-old.

As someone said above: the design philosophy of this game, certainly for PvP, but even to some extent with PvE, is a level playing field, where skill should count for more than gear (relatively speaking – at least, at cap).

So no, I don’t want this game to have the same ego-stroking gear differential as other games, and if you want that, you should be aware that so long as the developers stick to their vision, this game won’t ever have that.

But there are hundreds of games out there that do. So, once again, if you don’t like the way this game is designed at a fundamental level, then please go and play those games; please let this one game be a bit different from the norm.

Or, live with it for a bit, you might find you like it eventually.

Cik.6479:

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

Holy…
I couldnt watch that video till end.. that guy is so stupid it just hurts to listen to him..

So, you might not like the look you get, but want to show off your accomplishments. I understand this. There are titles in this game, so perhaps each “great feat” could award a title for you to display. In the future, if/when our home districts get a bit more customization, they could add an award-shelf; much like the Hall of Monuments in Guild Wars. This would allow you to show your social group all of your cool achievements.

Cik.6479:

Moonthrower.1406:

The core idea of this game is that your skill is what matters… not your gear.

Thats funny. Skill. Hmmm…I’ll start this video about there. . .about skill. . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-8Iph0PdU&feature=player_detailpage#t=253s

I watched this video yesterday. That guy is a total loser. He really loves to hear himself talk. I got a headache listening to him and can’t believe I actually wasted my time watching that entire video.

So Guild Wars 2 skill is based on timing. As long as time exists, timing will be an important basis for all activities requiring skill. You think hitting a major league baseball does not require timing? How about a one timer in hockey? No skill there? Even archery involves timing. You don’t just whip that bow up and let go, you let go at the right time, when you are lined up at the right moment. The body sways, it is important to wait until the conditions are right to release the arrow.

This is not a declaration that GW2 requires as much skill as some other games or activities. However, skill will improve the outcome.

A rather interesting take on gear based skill.

Caption: I’m winning because of my skill!
http://cdn.baekdal.com/2012/racecar1.jpeg

On one hand, not much skill is required to best someone with superior equipment, on the other hand, the winner probably spent years of his life in the professional grind, making all the right moves and contacting and securing rides and sponsorship with all the right people to get to the level he is at. While in this example, the driver had to showcase some skill to gain enough trust to be given that ride, most of it was earned through dedication and perseverance.

Take from that what you will.

What in this game is going to make me want to keep completing content and pushing forward?

Nothing is. That’s the whole point.

I am not a rat trapped in a skinner box. I do not want, nor need a carrot. I’m sick of the psychological entrapment that MMO designers have seeded into their games in the guise of a reward (loot).

MMO’s are no longer virtual worlds for you to have grand adventures in with your friends, build communities and forge relationships that outlast the game itself. They have become glorified single-player games littered with dumbkitten AI that laze around motionless like cows waiting for you to come and milk them of their 1’s and 0’s.

GW2’s core design philosphy brings this game back much closer to the genre that I fell in love with 15 years ago. If all you want to do is play virtual number adder, then there’s plenty of games that fit your needs. I invite you to go and play any of them. GW2 is clearly not to your tastes.