Guild Wars 2

The End Game Debate

Many players, like myself, are very concerned about the current state of the end game in Guild Wars 2. This is blatantly reflected in the feedback which is already posted throughout the GW2 forums. Different players have different expectations as to what an appropriate end game experience should be. This post is meant to try to bring these ideas into a single, holistic look at the different approaches to end game as we know it. I’ll discuss some end game examples, with pros and cons. Then, I’ll offer suggestions for improvement with possible implementations. Please keep in mind, GW2 is still in its infancy as a newly released game. I love playing GW2 even with its faults and have high hopes for it in the future.

What is end game? I’ll define “end game” as: “What to do when you hit max level.” Why is end game important? At the end of the day, most mmorpg players want to feel like they’ve achieved something. They want to feel that their character is just a little farther ahead than the day before. In order to continue progressing your character after you hit the maximum character level in a game, designers have come up with different ways for the players to fill this basic need to grow or improve. I do not play much PVP. So, this post will be PVE focused.

Now let’s take a look at a few end game methodologies…

1) WoW & clones: Raiding and the gear treadmill. – a.k.a. vertical progression

First up, we have WoW and its clones. This type of mindset keeps the character chasing the proverbial “carrot” through leveling, grinding, raiding and what-not, to continually try to attain a certain elite power (gear) status. This status is often used as a measuring stick to grade a player’s expected performance and what content they are able to access. As an example. A raid leader may or may not allow a max level character to join a raid because of their gear numbers.

On the positive side of raiding. I feel that (like me) a good portion of mmorpg players actually like raids. They give you something to do. They CAN be lots of fun. They bring together a hopefully coordinated larger (10-20) group of people that have to strategically work together to achieve a common goal. They are also a great place to introduce new dynamic fight mechanics instead of the tried and true tank-and-spank.

In addition to raiding, this type of game will probably have achievements, mini-games, vanity items, titles, and other things to do to occupy your time… and appeal to you completionist types.

2) GW1: Skill focused, Collecting, and hard dungeons. – a.k.a horizontal progression

GW1 took a different approach from the gear treadmill by introducing the concept that a player’s skill should be more important they the clothes they wear. Instead of raising the level cap every time a new addition to the game was released, the designers decided to keep the max level at a flat 20. Level 20 gear was cheap to buy. The elite gear had the same numeric stats, but looked different.

So if everyone could get to level 20, and the gear had the same stats… how could a character progress? Well, the elite gears’ appearance gave a sense of progression. But more importantly, a player could theoretically improve his character by collecting different character skills, which are spread throughout the game. Experimenting with different skill combinations added to sense of character development with the possibility of creating something new and exciting.

In the place of raids, GW1 had hard (and hard mode) dungeons to test a characters skill and prowess. These dungeons did not require the 10-20 player coordination or social aspect of raids. But none-the-less, they we’re something for end game players to complete and achieve.

Along with skill hunting and harder dungeons, GW1 had its fair share of vanity items, collectables, titles, and other things to keep its players busy.

3) GW2: Collecting, Exploration, and hard dungeons. – also horizontal progression

Now comes the new kid on the block. Wait wait, before we go any further, this is something that we need to remember. This game is NEW. We all would like a complete and finished product from day 1. But, that just isn’t practical now-a-days. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have the game right now, than wait another 2 or 3 years. So this leads us to the end game for GW2. To generalize a few quotes from an interview with ArenaNet staff, the developers want us to approach the whole game as an end game experience. They want us to continue doing at 80 what we’ve been doing while leveling to 80. If it was fun the first time, why not keep having fun? You can always create a new character and play the game again with a different story line.

… meanwhile players are screaming, “Where is the end game?!?!” …

The disconnect seems to happen at the perceived absence of character development past max level. The max character level has been raised from GW1 (20) to GW2 (80). But make no mistake; the max level mindset is still the same for both games. In the absence of gear grind, the first GW allowed you to progress your character through skill acquisition and experimentation. So, what do we have in GW2? We have weapon swapping (for better or worse), and a more limited customizable skill selection. This system does not easily translate over for a lot of players who are seeking a way to progress their character. Once you reach level 80, grab your gear, and unlock all of your skills, there is a great temptation to feel that you’ve reached the end. There are no higher gear levels to be had, no skills left to find… So how do we progress?

At the release of GW2, GW1 had three complete games and 1 true expansion. It had hard dungeons for each version and tons of skills to play with. It also had the Hall of Monuments (HoM) which gave players a tangible reason to collect the vanity items, titles, etc. Don’t forget though, all of this content was not released on day 1.

Now don’t get me wrong; there are plenty of things to do and explore in GW2 if you don’t madly rush to “finish” the game. The exploration of the GW2 world is part of its end game experience. [spoiler] I recently found a mini maze in the Lion’s Arch zone. This extra addition was not a necessity. But, it was a welcome surprise and quite fun. [/spoiler] GW2 also has hard dungeons in the form of explorable modes. And not to worry, GW2 has its fair share of vanity gear, titles, and items to work towards.

Suggestions:

So, how can we incorporate systems into GW2 that appeal to a player’s need to develop their character past max level without breaking the fundamental structure of the game itself? Well, two solid options we have are to either design new dungeons/systems to supplement the game, or modify existing systems to give a better end game “feel” for players.

In designing new systems, I would highly recommend creating a raid-esque environment with fun and different fight mechanics that required a coordinated group of around 10-20 players to defeat. These “raids” could be very hard to defeat, but also reward max or close to max gear. The gear treadmill does not need to be implemented into this solution for it to be effective. It would just need to offer rewards that players would actually want to attain.

Instead of designing new content, designers could use the existing outside world bosses and alter the encounters to resemble more of a raid scenario. I believe the outside world bosses have a lot of potential, but need more tweaking in their current state to provide a more satisfying experience. Again, I would recommend making these encounters very difficult to defeat, but reward max or near max level gear.

The wrap up:

So I end with these thoughts. How will the developers of GW2 handle the character progression issue? Do they think it is even an issue? Will the release of new content allow players to feel like they are progressing? I personally have high hopes for GW2, especially with this years Halloween events and rumors concerning the November content patch. GW2 is a work in progress. I just hope they progress sooner rather than later.

Atryue
Lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

In larger scheme of things, I propose to you this; Almost any MMORPG released within the last ten years have had undesired end games.

It’s the largest straw man argument to think that the majority of people have been happy or satisfied with anything come themepark. Even World of Warcraft have always had Battlegrounds that never worked, crumbled PvE imbalance in a Arena eSport that didn’t take off, and had a miniority of players who enjoyed the end game raids.

You still end up, in the best examples with a large middle class of people who have nowhere to go or nothing to do.

And this is my point. Because everything gets boring eventually. The fun stops. Just doing the same thing with new skins, in a new environment, does not compare to the freshness.
This is why people get more jaded as the life of the game goes on. No, it didn’t used to be “better” before developer nerfed X or buffed Y. Before Expansion Z or patch Q.

I’ll say that for me the end game of Guild Wars 2, getting 100% , finding my exotic armor and weapons and accessories of choice, plus the vanity things that cost gold – bags, dyes, working towards titles and so on, have given me a better end game in PvE than any other games.

On my server we have real unity in Orr. there are regulars every night doing farm parties. I have daily runs around Malchors Leap and Cursed Shore for Ancient Wood, Omnoberries and Ori Nodes. I can enjoy this activity solo.

The only thing I wish is that they would give us more medium-long term goals. If Legendary Weps are a truly long term goal, then they need to meet us halfway with other Armors and Weapons.
I wish for new things to use Skill Points and Karma on. I have almost 200 Skill Points, over 100.000 Karma. I don’t need those things, but I struggle with gold.

I suggest that players can get the same sort of resources, gold, karma in lower level areas. I want to quest in Arathi Highlands because that zone is fun and full of war and horse genoicide, but I can’t because you don’t get enough effort out of it. And that’s how I feel about dungeons too. I wish there would be more reward there, and I wish there would be more unique armors and weapons that took serious efforts by playing the game.

I might have missed 500 dynamic events even though I’ve played the game for over 300 hours. I can’t say. I want to go back in the world. But I also want to leave a mark with my guild in the world. Why cant guilds overtake towns, and outposts? Why cant guilds own pve areas and tax players entering. even if there is no PvP, it would be fun for guilds to fight for political control.

Sorry but at work and reading a book right now I don’t have time for but I saw the “WoW & clones: Raiding and the gear treadmill” part.

I am not sure GW2 is about PvE and end game. They added a lot in to appease more fans, but overall GW2 is pvp based and likely will focus more on that. I love raiding thanks to WoW and was hard core from vanilla WoW to beginning of Cata. Quit because Cata was horrible and then came back for MoP but on a casual schedule. There will not be another mmo that will come close to WoW’s endgame from Vanilla/BC and Ulduar.

So wanting a good end game in GW2 especially involving raiding, I don’t see happening here. IMO GW2 should have stuck to what it was best at and from what I heard about GW1 was the pvp. Focusing on pve for them while the pvp as of now is boring and bleh is a bad idea. The only 3 games with an end game or at least a decent to good end game right now is WoW, ToR and Rift. Haven’t tried Rift but heard it was decent. ToR’s is good but too short and a little to easy and WoW’s MoP is a lot better than Cata and the dungeons a lot better made mechanics wise and more of a challenge. Still not close to Vanilla or BC but it is still the best end game for raiding out.

I like grinding in games. Always have since I played Diablo 2 all those years ago.

I’m nowhere near endgame content as of yet, but I keep hearing mixed thoughts on it:

On one hand I hear player arguing there is nothing to do, nothing to grind, etc. However, I also hear the grinding for one Legendary item can take ages with the 250 of each ingredient (or whatever it is) which I am looking forward to personally.

I just think that Arenanet needs to provide more grinding for those who want it, and other avenues to explore for those who don’t. Neither should be better than the other, simply a different means to the same end.

The game has over 30 dungeon paths. that’s almost of end game that can be repeated rigjht there. They should try and make them more fun and worthwhile. more rare loot and so on.

Great post. I’m not sure how i feel about your "creating a raid-esque environment " suggestion, since it will inevitably bring dramas with it, when ppl fail and wipe and creating large groups of 10-20 ppl will become a chore. One good thing about current world bosses is that those events r spontaneous, event will roll with whoever cared to show up, no drama, no chores. However fights themselves r somewhat lackluster: their mechanics r utterly neglectable (for example, i have yet to see the asura laser firing at Twhateverhisnameis), the damage from bosses scales really badly if there’s any damage at all (think Shatterer), etc. Overall world-boss (dungeons r better in that matter) fights design in GW2 is kinda dull, i don’t think ppl who designed them knew wth they were doing very well (i hope they’ve learnt from it), but it’s another topic, big one.

Back to the topic of end game, for me end game is “stuff to do”. It’s not something specific, like raids. I do a little of everything, if i want and when i want. I need different sets of gear for general PvE and dungeons, because they each require different things from u, and i’ve yet to decide which stats exactly i need for them, there’s a room for experimenting. Then comes 3W, and again whole new approach with it. There r little things in game, like ori ore runs, vanity items, TP and bigger ones like exploration. At last, but not least, there r other toons to develop. I’m GW1 veteran, and one thing i really liked about GW1 is that i could have lots of toons equally, and fully at that, developed, so i could try out different playstyles and all, and btw this was awesome for getting better in PvP. And the best thing about it: i didn’t need to spend half of my life on getting those toons ready to go. I wasn’t chained to one main character, forced to grind all kinds of goods for it. So in my opinion GW2 provides good playground for casual players (casual as in less time spent required, not less challenge or skill), i always have things to do, at my own pace. And last thing: imo, best end game content is new content. Latest Halloween proved it to me. I’d rather have something new to try every 2 months, than some ONE big kitten raid which i will need to farm for a kittening 6 months in endless gear race. But thats just me.

if you change the end game focus to raiding then it devalues everything else, that’s just how the mmo mentality works. Thankfully, GW2 is trying to break that mold by providing a little bit of everything with an emphasis on having fun whenever you’re playing your character and not having fun whenever you’re just “end gaming”

Yeah… hard dungeons. Where they at? There’s really only a handful of encounters that are tricky or challenging at best.

Right now, I am very curious about the november update. Even though they stated that it wasn’t meant to introduce “big endgame expansion”, there is this: “•Brand new type of dungeon to be added – gets harder the further you get in, really big with a ton of levels” (source: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/870-mmorpg-interview-with-colin-johanson/)

This is promising. If they do this correctly, it will hopefully be a new challenge to sink your teeth in, with some actual progression as you get better. Now imagine they doing this with more than one dungeon, maybe in future expansions…

November will be the chance for Anet to show us where they want to take the game… AND the endgame. I for one am not going to draw some conclusions before that update.

Something I forgot to emphasize (and even mention) in the suggestions section. I thought GW1 had a completly valid endgame experience with the skill hunting and experimentation. This type of system might also work for GW2.

JSmooth.7654:

In designing new systems, I would highly recommend creating a raid-esque environment with fun and different fight mechanics that required a coordinated group of around 10-20 players to defeat. These “raids” could be very hard to defeat, but also reward max or close to max gear. The gear treadmill does not need to be implemented into this solution for it to be effective. It would just need to offer rewards that players would actually want to attain.

The idea of a series of raid style bosses – complete with ultra-complex mechanics and difficulty – just spawning or occurring in the middle of Fields of Ruin or Kessex Hills – really appeals to me.

It think this was the intent with the temple events in Orr, and I think those are a step in the right direction. What I would be interested in seeing is more difficult/complex encounters across the map – eventually in every zone.

The biggest issue right now is that everyone at level 80 doesnt see the sub-80 zones as end game. If you go to Harathi Highlands or Fireheart Rise, the populations have diminished greatly. This can be a boon or a problem. On the positive side, it means the events are probably active should a guild decide to organize for a particular zone. On the negative, it means that solo players and small groups probably cant survive through the events.

Im not as obsessive as most about loot – I play for the experience of playing – but I do think some kind of better reward system would fix the issue above. For example, if the events in each zone offered a unique set of armor/weapons for level 80s (eg – Harathi Highlands Armor Set) – similar to the dungeon system used now – and obtainable with “zone tokens” (which required completing the harder events multiple times) I think it would solve the issue to a degree.

Having listened to Colin Johanson’s interview, I think I’m beginning to “get” where they’re going with GW2. The three options above are not the only ones for PvE endgame – the option everyone is missing, and that Anet are into, is that the game world should change and evolve fairly rapidly through time.

I’m guessing they have developed some tools that enable the team to change the game world more easily than has been possible in MMOs before, and that what we’re going to see is something that’s a bit more like DM-generated dynamic content as in tabletop games, but on a larger, slower scale (with new “things to do” being opened up every few weeks, every few months, etc.)

The original idea for Everquest was meant to have 2 quest types: “Dynamic” quests which would be DM-led, and “Static” quests (question-mark-above-NPC) quests. Unfortunately, at the time the technology wasn’t up to it, and Sony were never able to fulfil the idea that “Dynamic” quests should be the main part of the quest system (hence the title “Everquest”), so “Static” quests took up the slack, and that’s what Blizz and other developers turned into the common quest model.

I think Anet are returning a little bit to the older idea that the world should change around you and be more interactive – full-on DM-led questing is still a bit too hard to implement in large-scalle MMOs, but what Anet are going for is something that’s inbetween that and the “Static” quest model – i.e. they are going to update the game world constantly so that the “Static” quests (Hearts) and DEs change over time.

IOW, the game world a couple of years from now will be different from how it is now, in a way that will make it interesting for returning players – i.e. the game world will be somewhat unfamiliar enough for returning players to keep them interested and keep them returning.

This is, I think, the alternative to the “carrots” that sub/gear grind models have used so far – rather than adding more static content on top of a static world, the whole world itself will have shifting content over time. The major additions of chunks of world (new big zones proper) will then come with the paid-for updates.

Or, to put it another way, where with most MMOs “new content” generally means “new zones”, Anet have found a way internally of changing existing content more easily, more regularly, and for free.

So that’s the answer: not so much character progression (because of the “level playing field/no gear grind” ethos), as world progression (because there has to be some change and evolution to keep things fresh). If you think about it, there’s no essential difference between challenging content being added at level cap by changing the game world, and the WoW-style stat inflation and gear grind. You’re still getting fresh challenging gameplay that’s on or just above your level, it’s just that with stat inflation and gear grind you have an illusion of “character progression” but it’s really just a hamster wheel. Being linear, that kind of stat inflation is unsustainable beyond a certain point in terms of any kind of “realism” (you’re a hero, then you’re super-hero, then you’re a super-duper-hero, etc. – why not just be a hero, but with the content shifting and remaining challenging?)

Honestly, I want the developers to straight-up throw the term “endgame” out on its butt.

Same way they did with the trinity. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have an endgame. And pretending it ever will just creates confusion as to what GW2 is.

Instead what it has is simply “game”. No end. You get to experience the full extent of the gameplay from the beginning (which they do say), and that’s the same game you play at the level cap as the developers continue to give you new things to experience (which I don’t think they do a good enough job of explaining).

The idea of changing playstyle once at the level cap (i.e. raiding) is a restrictive, elitist, absurd, and as a result of this game, obsolete, notion. And the crazy thing is, it’s not even fun. Who likes clearing trash mobs for two hours and then glass-chewing on a boss that ultimately has to be overpowered by a gear advantage rather than by player skill?

GW2 has both covered. It has the giant epic boss fights with the big numbers, and it also has the skill-intensive boss fights for parties. And these are both part of the game. Not endgame, just the game. So they need to take the term “endgame” and really just completely stomp it out.

The problem with the endgame design philosophy in this game (or some would argue the lack thereof) is that it isn’t challenging to players who have done PVE raid content in other games. So far all the dragons and about half of the explore paths in the dungeons I have run have been zergable if my group had enough patience and repair money. Essentially endgame in GW2 boils down to a “vanity” grind that many players find hollow. Sure, legendary weapons are cool to look at but when you consider the ungodly grind they take, either individually or working as a team they lose quite a bit of appeal.

There is another way. Level scaling already exists extensively in the game. If raid content or “harder” mode 5 man dungeons were implemented that dropped loot with stats above exotic level that loot could be scaled down to exotic level outside the dungeons. This would preserve the stat balance in the game world while giving people that enjoy raid content some of the prestige and sense of achievement many find missing in GW2.

There isn’t a endgame debate in gw2. The guildwars games just have pvp endgame with tacked on pve contend.

Ok this confuses me. I am a pve raider and prefer it over anything and that is how I judge a game I want to play (mmo wise). I came to GW 2 because I thought this was going to be pvp based and all about pvp with some pve of course like leveling and a couple 5 man type dungeons. I am not much into pvp but was hoping to try it out some and have a new and fresh experience with it. Yes I pvp some in WoW and ToR but just having fun in the bg’s etc.

So now people are wanting end game raiding in a game not meant to? I think Arena Net should really focus on their pvp first because right now I think it is very boring and not fun at all nor what I was expecting. I think they should stick with what they are best at and that is pvp.

This may be just me and please don’t say this game might not be for you then, because as far as I expected, I thought pvp was going to be the main point.

Endgame? could have fooled me, I thought that was my wallet.

And until I see one or at least changes I like Anet doesnt see mine.

Then they made a rather bad job Discopumper.7260

I never played GW1, and gw2 pvp so far is totally disappointing

There no true balance to any the pvp, Downed state and thieves makes spvp ( i know they working on thieves, but hey they working on a lot of things) rather laughable

WvW pvp so favors the numbers that there is no skill required, half the player base only knows the Zerg, mis that with the mmount of hacking / cheating etc that goes on and this more like a game from 15 years ago than anything i would expect nowadays

I soo hoped for more and believe that a decent modern game should cater for all types, have a few raids, have a few different “balanced” pvp areas ( to Devs, balanced is not 20 v 100)

WoW Gear Treadmill was only negative in a sense of it gives players significantly superior stats… like in most other MMOs that I’ve played in the past. GW2 doesn’t have that and it’s great.

However, I don’t think any MMO these days will survive without some kind of “treadmill” to slow down the rate of which players are eating up the content; to a point that they get absolutely bored of doing the same thing. Some people it takes a dozen tries, while others it might take more tries to get bored of tread milling a certain content. But let’s face it; GW2 has treadmills too. Most players (who’s hit 80) are probably treadmilling atm.

GW2 endgame has this issue of “lack of fun team-play”. Yah, there are a lot of “fun single player contents” in GW2, but nothing lasts longer than a game that has great team-play. Ex) Mos online RTS games? online FPS games? Even in the biggest MMO in the past (WoW); it’s things like raids and PVP that keeps a game fun.

And IMO GW2 doesn’t have much of those types of “uniquely fun teamplay” gameplays. Dungeons are fun but it’s really it’s always ‘struggling to survive’ than it is about working together on the team; i think the emphasis put there on dungeon is wrong. And since there are no gameplay in GW2’s PVE that really promotes collective teamwork other than dungeons, that is why its end-game is having issues.

MMO’s don’t have end game content. You just have to wait for new content or play the old.

Sorry, there’s something to debate?

Endgame is WvWvW. Startgame is WvWvW. The bit in the middle is… erm… hmm.

Oh yeh. WvWvW.

Sightseeing the PvE stuff is nice, but less of the crazy talk, eh

Just at a kitten ton of unique looking armor sets and allot off ppl will stop complaining ;p
Even if they have the same stats just getting a really sick unique look that take age to grind/farm is something some ppl need i gues.

You progress by making more money and getting more expensive gear to show off the money you made.

So basically what you do is wait for a dusk to drop and instantly becoming richer than 99% of the population.

Eh… I think we need to draw a distinction between endgame content, and reasons to do the endgame content.

Endgame Content:
- 25 Explorable mode dungeon paths.
Only reason to do this is for unique armor, making it so you only want to do certain dungeons. Dungeons need to be universally rewarding besides the tokens. That would just make them so much more fun.

- SPvP with it’s own separate progression system.
No real unique content to SPvP, most of it is from PvE and doesn’t carry over to PvE. This makes you feel like earning something in PvP is virtually worthless.

- 2 Max level zones that are both farmable.
This one is fine.

- 3 World bosses.
The rewards simply aren’t great. They should add 5 of a random 400 crafting material or something.

- Tons of unique achievements, and repeatable ones.
These are fine, though titles/custom emotes for certain achievement milestones would be better.

- WvW with it’s own currency system.
And nothing to do with that currency—not to mention what you can do with it is super costy. It takes forever to get the badges and there’s so little to do with them.

- Crafting
Doesn’t make you much money, costs loads of money.

Those are just my thoughts on the subject. I think the game has plenty of endgame, it just needs to reward you for more for participating in them with money and such.

@ Arius – But what to do with the money if you have all the Legendary gears & equipments that you want?

Exploration is not decent end game. Come on you run to the little points on the map. Put in meaningful wvwvw and dungeons the hardcore pvers want.

this game needs gvg, duels and ranking system.. i create a thread earlier to discuss about how gvg and duels going to effect the game if its implemented, but i guess no one interested ;P

Corian.4068:

Honestly, I want the developers to straight-up throw the term “endgame” out on its butt.

Same way they did with the trinity. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have an endgame. And pretending it ever will just creates confusion as to what GW2 is.

Instead what it has is simply “game”. No end. You get to experience the full extent of the gameplay from the beginning (which they do say), and that’s the same game you play at the level cap as the developers continue to give you new things to experience (which I don’t think they do a good enough job of explaining).

The idea of changing playstyle once at the level cap (i.e. raiding) is a restrictive, elitist, absurd, and as a result of this game, obsolete, notion. And the crazy thing is, it’s not even fun. Who likes clearing trash mobs for two hours and then glass-chewing on a boss that ultimately has to be overpowered by a gear advantage rather than by player skill?

GW2 has both covered. It has the giant epic boss fights with the big numbers, and it also has the skill-intensive boss fights for parties. And these are both part of the game. Not endgame, just the game. So they need to take the term “endgame” and really just completely stomp it out.

The problem is it has endgame whether they want to coin it or not. The game doesn’t have very many different things or paths to do. It’s basically level to 80, level the worthless crafting system to max, grind some dungeons perhaps and explore. All of which can be done relatively quickly. After that you’re stuck with two options WvW or work on a legendary.

But the problem is you cannot set your own adventure in this game the paths are literally chosen and once you hit 80 there really isn’t a drive to continue playing, especially if you’re not interesting in a legendary or WvW. GW2 is essentially a theme-park MMO which means it has end game because you’re limited to the things you can do upon turning 80.

Lavexis.5360:

this game needs gvg, duels and ranking system.. i create a thread earlier to discuss about how gvg and duels going to effect the game if its implemented, but i guess no one interested ;P

I believe Spvp pretty much covers most of this. But even if/when you implement these features you’ll still stuck with the “End Game” problem. As those activities are not something that a lot of masses tend to do repeatedly often and for a long time. And part of the reason why is because those functions have no connections to their characters and the world of Tyria.

Every mmorpg should have a solid end-game.
Imo, this game succeeded well as a MMO but not mmorpg.

GW2 is like having an action-game character in MMO setting.
Everything is player skills and there’s no growth in your character.

If I were to give a personal rating,
GW2 as a mmo: 9/10
GW2 as a mmorpg: 3.5/10

The reason why I prefer RPG than any other games ever since I was a child are for the same reason. I avoid console games like Tomb Raider, Ninja Gaiden and any games of those genres. We can see GW2’s nature is very unlike rpg. The elements of jumping quests, non-progression characters, 100% player skills and cosmetic-based rewards.

In regards to GW2’s “end-game”, some people said it starts at “level 1” but it’s obvious the game really ends after Zhaitan. It felt like I finished a console game. Console rpgs can do that. But, MMOrpgs shouldn’t let players feel like they finished a console game.

WvWvW being an end-game is meaningless. Level 1 character can join WvWvW and have equal stand with anyone who reached level cap. There’s no goal nor actual benefits, glory and rewards. We only add points to the server’s name and it gets reset the following week. Your enemies are all in red/blue/green and nothing to feel special or glorified personally. That’s all about it.

Cosmetic-based gears as rewards are quite weak for end-game. It’s because every MMORPG has those as secondary rewards. Therefore, players who have tasted it as secondary will feel very reluctant to chase after cosmetic gears.

Gw2 cosmetic gear end-game:
You bought a branded handbag, watch that costs thousands of dollars. You feel proud bringing it to shopping centres with your friends. It’s because it signifies that you work hard and save that amount to buy that branded bag. It makes you feel that if you wear something where many people can’t buy, you stand higher than other humans. You think others will admire and respect you for wearing branded stuffs.
- If you perceived this way in reality, then this end-game will appeals to you.

For some of us, it doesn’t appeals us effectively. It’s because we see all bags and watches are the same. They have the same function and quality. I would rather buy a $50 bag than $5000 “branded” bag. Sometimes, I see those $50 bag looks nicer than any branded bags. I rather wear something I personally like than a branded bag which doesn’t appeals me at all. Prices doesn’t matter. Therefore, I see everyone who wore those overly expensive stuffs the same as anyone else in the street.
- If you perceived this way in reality, then this end-game will never appeals to you.

This is why I tried to emphasize that cosmetic gears makes a very weak end-game.
There should be more than just chasing cosmectic gears. It does not have to be gear stats progression. If they removed gear stats progression, they should fill that hole with something with equavalent value. There few which people can think of that has some actual progression to your characters.

Naoko.7096:

Every mmorpg should have a solid end-game.
Imo, this game succeeded well as a MMO but not mmorpg.

GW2 is like having an action-game character in MMO setting.
Everything is player skills and there’s no growth in your character.

If I were to give a personal rating,
GW2 as a mmo: 9/10
GW2 as a mmorpg: 3.5/10

The reason why I prefer RPG than any other games ever since I was a child are for the same reason. I avoid console games like Tomb Raider, Ninja Gaiden and any games of those genres. We can see GW2’s nature is very unlike rpg. The elements of jumping quests, non-progression characters, 100% player skills and cosmetic-based rewards.

In regards to GW2’s “end-game”, some people said it starts at “level 1” but it’s obvious the game really ends after Zhaitan. It felt like I finished a console game. Console rpgs can do that. But, MMOrpgs shouldn’t let players feel like they finished a console game.

WvWvW being an end-game is meaningless. Level 1 character can join WvWvW and have equal stand with anyone who reached level cap. There’s no goal nor actual benefits, glory and rewards. We only add points to the server’s name and it gets reset the following week. Your enemies are all in red/blue/green and nothing to feel special or glorified personally. That’s all about it.

---

Cosmetic-based gears as rewards are quite weak for end-game. It’s because every MMORPG has those as secondary rewards. Therefore, players who have tasted it as secondary will feel very reluctant to chase after cosmetic gears.

Gw2 cosmetic gear end-game:
You bought a branded handbag, watch that costs thousands of dollars. You feel proud bringing it to shopping centres with your friends. It’s because it signifies that you work hard and save that amount to buy that branded bag. It makes you feel that if you wear something where many people can’t buy, you stand higher than other humans. You think others will admire and respect you for wearing branded stuffs.
- If you perceived this way in reality, then this end-game will appeals to you.

For some of us, it doesn’t appeals us effectively. It’s because we see all bags and watches are the same. They have the same function and quality. I would rather buy a $50 bag than $5000 “branded” bag. Sometimes, I see those $50 bag looks nicer than any branded bags. I rather wear something I personally like than a branded bag which doesn’t appeals me at all. Prices doesn’t matter. Therefore, I see everyone who wore those overly expensive stuffs the same as anyone else in the street.
- If you perceived this way in reality, then this end-game will never appeals to you.

This is why I tried to emphasize that cosmetic gears makes a very weak end-game.
There should be more than just chasing cosmectic gears. It does not have to be gear stats progression. If they removed gear stats progression, they should fill that hole with something with equavalent value. There few which people can think of that has some actual progression to your characters.

I certainly agree with this. GW2 does feel like an MMO than an MMORPG because I don’t feel as if my character actually progresses and after hitting 80 or doing the story there really isn’t much to do. I just can’t set my own adventure or do things differently among different characters and other players.

Everyone is in such a hurry… how many of you have played MMOs from release? World of Warcraft… Rift… neither of these had large end games when they first released, and yet now their endgames are huge.

Game developers cannot be held accountable for players who decide to rush a game to the end. It is physically impossible to keep those types of players constantly amused. I am about to reach 500 hours on my account’s /age and I STILL have things to do. A lot of things. I’ve taken my time, enjoyed myself, etc. I play a LOT, so I’ve logged those 500 hours quickly. Someone who plays in a similar method but logs less time? They’ll be at this for a year+. THAT is the type of player that MMO devs cater to.

Every MMO sees these types of post. Someone who rushes to the very end as quickly as possible, completes everything, and then is surprised when there are consequences to those actions. And in the end? I’m sorry to say, but they will get no sympathy from anyone except those in the same boat. The rest of us will continue enjoying the mounds of content ahead of us for many more hours to come, until the endgame content is released. And even then, we probably won’t be finished with what we’re doing now.

I’m not a WoW player, so I’ve never done a raid, but they sound fun, and I would like to see them.
A bit of a side note, I think there should be small karma rewards to doing things that would normally help fill in a heart, even though it’s already filled. It’s just a bit bothering to me that I have the ability to help a NPC in a way such as bringing defense plans to some guy, but I don’t get anything because I’ve already filled in that heart.

Hehe, the side note was bigger than my first comment.

For me the endgame in gw1 was pvp and in gw2 my endgame is pvp. Just add Guild vs Guild and i am happy everything else is just bonus

Well said Naoko. I agree with your point about GW2 feeling like an MMO instead of a MMORPG as well.

Tolmos.8395:

Everyone is in such a hurry… how many of you have played MMOs from release? World of Warcraft… Rift… neither of these had large end games when they first released, and yet now their endgames are huge.

Game developers cannot be held accountable for players who decide to rush a game to the end. It is physically impossible to keep those types of players constantly amused. I am about to reach 500 hours on my account’s /age and I STILL have things to do. A lot of things. I’ve taken my time, enjoyed myself, etc. I play a LOT, so I’ve logged those 500 hours quickly. Someone who plays in a similar method but logs less time? They’ll be at this for a year+. THAT is the type of player that MMO devs cater to.

Every MMO sees these types of post. Someone who rushes to the very end as quickly as possible, completes everything, and then is surprised when there are consequences to those actions. And in the end? I’m sorry to say, but they will get no sympathy from anyone except those in the same boat. The rest of us will continue enjoying the mounds of content ahead of us for many more hours to come, until the endgame content is released. And even then, we probably won’t be finished with what we’re doing now.

I am sorry but there is no “rush” to end game at this point. After 2 months of release there really hasn’t been much implemented and 2 months given the pace of leveling (which is fairly quick even for casual standards). On top of that there just isn’t much to do beside WvW and legendary. I am not counting the other stuff because they can be done fairly quickly.

I think the downscale system, limited utilities and all wep skills that you can get at very early lvls are the reason why you barely notice any progress.

Personally, I’d like to see some form of instanced raid content (meaning: dungeons requiring more than 5 people to complete them). I mean, Dynamic Events are cool and all, but for those times when we want to get a bunch of guildies together to tackle on content, then I wouldn’t mind jumping in to do a raid. I don’t speak for all raiders, but I like raiding because I like being around the company of large amounts of people. I wouldn’t care what kind of loot I get as long I found some enjoyment in the run.

I suppose implementing one in GW2 might be tricky since everyone’s role dynamically shifts between damage, control, and support; as opposed to traditional methods where one person is almost always shoehorned into either tank, healer, or damage. Obviously, the encounters should be moderately challenging, and not a total zergfest.

Also, in most MMOs, the statistically best gear often comes from high-end raiding. It might be interesting to see what kind of rewards and incentives there would be using GW2’s philosophies behind loot. For people who play to see bigger numbers for every new piece of gear, they may not be able to find it in GW2; but for people like me who enjoy raiding for the thrill and challenge of it, then I can’t wait to see what’s in store.

Honestly, I miss dungeons like The Deep and Urgoz’s Warren in GW1. I actually I had some fun in those two, despite being somewhat strict on what professions fit within the meta-group. Since GW2 allows a lot more freedom for group composition, the only requirement would be just being competent in playing your profession.

As someone who played mostly first-person shooters and other action games (I can count the number of MMORPGs I played with one hand) before starting GW2, it’s in my opinion that an endgame isn’t necessary for a skill-based game, and I don’t see GW2 as an MMORPG in the traditional sense. Character progression does exist and yes, it does reach a cap early on, but only in a statistical sense. What I see is another side of character development – and that character is you. You, as a player, after learning about your favorite profession, mix and match skills and traits and learn to play better by timing dodges and chaining skills your own way. This is most felt in PvP but is also apparent in PvE to a limited extent. I feel that this ultimately gives players a better sense of progression because over time, you will actually realize that you, and not just your character, has improved.

I realize that it’s probably the total opposite of what the MMO grinders are accustomed to, but I personally never felt a sense of achievement from simply padding on gears with better stats because in the back of my head, I know that it’s an artificial limit imposed by the game developers and that, ultimately, your “progression” never stays with you – some months later, new gears would have been released and I would feel like I wasted my time grinding gears because I’ll have to do it all over again, and that nothing truly stayed with me.

Not so with a skill-based game; when you learn to ride a bike, you won’t forget. The same logic applies here – once you mastered the timing of dodging, you’ll always know when to dodge, as if by instinct. That skill can never be taken away from you. You made a commitment to invest time to improve that skill set and it’ll always be useful in GW2 because dodging is a major part of the game. The same goes for jumping puzzles; it may feel daunting at first, but as you learn the little nuances in the game (for example, you can slightly change your direction while mid-air during a jump), you start to incorporate them into your skill-set and in this way, you grow as a player.

That said… there is one thing I would like to see changed in this game: lower or eliminate the waypoint teleporting cost. This is important because it encourages players to re-explore areas that they previously have discovered. In GW1, fast-traveling between towns and outposts were free and I was more inclined to visit older areas. But this is more important for GW2 because without the teleporting cost in the way, there’s nothing to stop the older players from accessing the lower-level areas on a whim and it’ll recreate the magic that GW2 was during the first few weeks of release, where every area felt more packed instead of having all the lv80s crammed into Cursed Shore – and on that note, perhaps a distribution of resources amongst all the maps would be ideal as well, to encourage the vets to rediscover older areas. This will truly make every area feel like “endgame” area as most of you would put it.

How is it that you left out the DAOC approach? That is the MMO that started all this endgame business, from what I can tell.

Stopped reading when you said “wow and its CLONES” because Wow invented the wheel apparently?…

Cant take any suggestions or worries u may have seriously after that sorry =/

Maybe they should just have the dragons launch a full scale invasion on Tyria, forcing the level 80’s to the front lines. *insert rant about neat drops and phat lewtz *

I have to agree. I’m not a “Run around and get 100% map completion” kind of guy, I don’t see the point in dungeons because there is very little reward for the frustration, wvw is fun when you aren’t getting pooped on, and events can only be done so many times before they’re stale. I don’t see the end-game here. I don’t see whats suppose to make me want to keep playing, or even spend more money to get stuff like town clothes which are completely useless because you don’t wear them over your armor.

I don’t think this game was made with players like myself in mind. I think it was made more for the casual gamer, which is completely fine, how many games are like that? None. Its about time. But theres nothing here for me. No gear progression in the form of raids or something else, no raids which I thought were a blast in other mmos, no point in the dungeons, and not a whole lot of customization to your characters look outside of the character creator.

Right now the only thing making me come back every month is the awesome “holiday” events like the Halloween one which was amazing. Other than that, theres just nothing here for me.

Personally I don’t want to see another raid content oriented game. I raided in WoW, In rift and in SWTOR. Here is the reasons why I don’t want to see such content. For one, People get too into it. When I was back in college one of my class mates stood up in our final exam and said prof I got an emergency. Professor was like ???? He continued to reply: Guild is gonna down illidan tonight, must be there. Prof looked at him in confusion and just nodded and let him go, he had to retake the class of course. Raids take time to coordinate, people like me who work, have girlfriends and a social life cannot really deal with it. Back in Wrath my only free day a weak was wens, guilds who raided on said day did it after 9 – 10 pm meaning the raid would end around 1 – 2 – 3 am? No way I could do that and go work at 7 am the next morning. Back in Cata my schedule was more free but the raids were so lame I couldn’t really careless.

It creates elitism. People who raid auto think they are the kitten. Like if the whole world should bow before them cause they downed some AI boss before anyone.

And more importantly it blocks a large part of the community. People who can’t do it due to time issues, those who enjoy a class that isn’t as loved at the time. Those who haven’t done the raid ever and can’t prove they won’t suck at it. So on, if you look at the standard progression table it goes something like this: New content is on > Hard core clear it > They complain > None hard core wanna do it > Show me your chive > Can’t > No raid for you.

Now here is how I would fix the “End Game”.

For starters I would make dungeon actually viable. Most of them are either too easy or too annoying to really give you a fun repeatable experience. Most of the time you expect a huge fight and end up with a lame one or expect a lame one and end with a bugged npc who can’t let you progress or some boss who simply kills you until you beat him. Make dungeons so the player doesn’t need to relay on npcs doing task, or defending them, defending an AI character is never a good idea, not in FPS, not in GTA like games not in MMOs. Why cause bots are kitten and will make your whole experience lacking and boring. They also tend to bug a lot.

Second improvement I say the dragons. God they are awesome thematically and in their arrival you feel like OMFG this is gonna be awesome. But like dungeons their mechanics are so simple, you feel like you are just there doing nothing. Dragons is the way I would create raids. They are there every X time and need mayor numbers of people to do em. However, for example in the claw of Jormag instead of him breathing and well nothing besides a fear happening, I say his breath should freeze anyone in the way and put a count die before they die, this forces people to free them. Remove the blind spot where everyone stands or make him do tail swaps that need you to dodge or jump, fail to do fall to your death. Make him use his claws and his bite, make him fly and stomp on the whole party if they can’t move out by following his shadow. This is challenging entertaining and brings communities together.

Next point rewards. Rewards feel lacking, no matter what you do. Crafting is good but dungeons and other activities only reward junk. With the random chance of a rare which in reality is more junk that sells for a few silver or gives you a random chance at an ectoplasm. No good at all. Make dungeons and events have a chance to drop unique rewards, pets, unique weapons and armor skins, even quest scrolls that lead to some unique event or something.

The next and the one I would put the most weight on, the Personal story.

This was going to be an unique future that allowed you to make your own story based on decisions. Personally I expected it to be another swtor where your class lead you through some events and bla bla bla but a lot better. Now the personal story quest introduced me to a story I was all interested in during the Beta. I rolled a charr, I expected to continue building my warband and eventually lead said warband into some kind of adventure or whatever. To my surprise my warband becomes unimportant after lvl 20 or so when I joined an order to fight Zhaitan, I dunno why a low level person would suddenly want to do such a thing but whatever. From there comes Tehern or whatever you spell his name and the story becomes a mediocre set of annoying quest that leads nowhere interesting. Oh let’s not leave Destiny’s edge out of this, bunch of cry babies who make story mode dungeons an even more annoying experience.

Now how would I fix this. Create a large variety of paths that change the way your character progress. I say this should be similar to the elder scrolls. Say I want to rebuild my war band with people from an order, I could recruit such people into it. Or add some romance options for the story so your char can have some interesting roleplay like swtor did. A good idea would be to leave an instanced area where the reward of everything you do comes to life. In swtor your ship was this area, here a piece of land in your city should suffice. Hell you could even add personal random events in the area for unique rewards. Say you romanced the Queen and you get a random event saying: “Logan is Q_Qing at your door, deal with it.”

The last point is how you obtain legendary weapons. Over all it feels like a needless grind. That should have died with old Diablo days. I don’t even like the way they look so I am not bothered with it. I would have made the quest for the legendary weapons to be part of the story line. Again personal story, involve you into the lore of the weapon and guide you through a bunch of quest after 80 is met. These quest should be mixed between WvW and Pve content, if you wanna add material grinding and certain dungeon events so be it. In the end it would place a lot of weight into every aspect of the game without making it a random long term achievement. And I say random because for one chances of you getting the pre weapon you want are slim. Buying it is all about studding the market and wasting time farming to sell and get what you want. In either case is only viable for people who don’t want to enjoy the game but over chive it instead.

GW1 had loads of skills, and elites you had to travel the world to capture from elite bosses which was awesome and very fun.

GW2 has hardly any skills or elites (90% of ranger skills suck btw) and skill points which isnt awesome or fun.

GW1 had unique bosses (loads of them) that dropped unique weapons that you could create certain builds to farm and you could sell to make money etc…
I spent 100’s of hours farming unique weapons using loads of different builds and loved every minute of it.
As a ranger in GW2 i have 2 builds, traps or spirits both suck btw

GW2 has the mystic forge (ruined the game imo) End game now is running back and forth between 2 events in cursed shore to farm materials to put in the mystic forge.

The thing that made GW1 great was the 1000’s of different builds you could make and having stuff to do with them.

When i play GW2 i use my 5 weapon skills 95% of the time, WHERE ARE MY SKILLS? oh yeah there isnt any.

Ari Kagura.9182:

Personally, I’d like to see some form of instanced raid content (meaning: dungeons requiring more than 5 people to complete them). I mean, Dynamic Events are cool and all, but for those times when we want to get a bunch of guildies together to tackle on content, then I wouldn’t mind jumping in to do a raid. I don’t speak for all raiders, but I like raiding because I like being around the company of large amounts of people. I wouldn’t care what kind of loot I get as long I found some enjoyment in the run.

I suppose implementing one in GW2 might be tricky since everyone’s role dynamically shifts between damage, control, and support; as opposed to traditional methods where one person is almost always shoehorned into either tank, healer, or damage. Obviously, the encounters should be moderately challenging, and not a total zergfest.

Also, in most MMOs, the statistically best gear often comes from high-end raiding. It might be interesting to see what kind of rewards and incentives there would be using GW2’s philosophies behind loot. For people who play to see bigger numbers for every new piece of gear, they may not be able to find it in GW2; but for people like me who enjoy raiding for the thrill and challenge of it, then I can’t wait to see what’s in store.

Honestly, I miss dungeons like The Deep and Urgoz’s Warren in GW1. I actually I had some fun in those two, despite being somewhat strict on what professions fit within the meta-group. Since GW2 allows a lot more freedom for group composition, the only requirement would be just being competent in playing your profession.

This is pretty much how I feel right now. There just isnt anything challenging in the game that I can do with my guild for more than 5 people. The DE’s are just a zerg. I also think they cant be fixed by their very nature. You need randomn people to be able to come and join an event so you cant make it too hard or less skilled people will increase the difficulty too much (if the DE’s scaled propely).

Also for people worring about gear grind and exclusion neither of these need to be implemented into raids. Raids should have a 5 man version so anyone can experience them. Raids should not have a gear grind and should just offer cosmetics. Raids dont even need to be the focus of the game.

In fact I believe they should do 10 / 20 man version of the current dungeons and any future dungeons, just tune them for a raid environment where teamwork is essential. Offer dungeon tokens as the reward. This would add a new raid whenever they add a new dungeon and allow the focus on content to stay as it is.

As an added bonus i think they should do a 5, 10 and 20 man explorable version of the story mode dungeons as well. Very quickly you have a ton of raiding content thatn doesnt exclude people nor does it offer better gear.

FluffyDoe.7539:

@ Arius – But what to do with the money if you have all the Legendary gears & equipments that you want?

Progression can’t be infinite. Getting Legendary should take you a very, very long time. If you’ve already gotten it, then you’ve already spent plenty of time on GW2. Time to either turn to getting all achievements/PvP gear, or take a break til the next content addition.

I for one have not logged on to GW2 for almost 2 weeks.

The lack of progression really got to me – have 2 characters in full exotics – and the grind for legendary does not appeal to me. Doing the same easy stuff over and over for a new skin – no thanks.

Maybe GW2 appeals to more casual players – I liked to use alot of time developing one character and improve it. In GW2 I felt like I was “done” playing my character 2 weeks after hitting 80 when I had the armor skins and stats I wanted. Unfortunately I didnt find the content fun enough to replay the same stuff over and over for no rewards whatsoever.