Guild Wars 2

‘End-Game’ debate.

GW2 stated that players should play this game because its fun, and I would whole-heartedly agree with that, except they missed the mark on too many things. I will stay strictly in the bounds of PvE here, since WvW and even PvP are totally different mechanics.

The problem with their ‘design’ model, as someone pointed out, is that this game has NO END-GAME, or, in better words to use, all content should be treated as ‘end-game’ that level 1-17 is everybit as ‘challenging and engaging’ as level 70-80 content.

If this were the case, why do we have levels in the first place? Levels indicate VERTICAL progression. Level 1 -2 is a VERTICAL progression. Your stats increase, your viability increases, and ‘more’ in the way of skills and content you can ‘play around in’ increases.

This is perhaps the single most…infuriating thing A.Net has done in regards to ‘throwing out the same-old tired forumla’ was that they left it in. If this game is meant to be a truly horizontal (only skill matters) then you should start at level 80 (or have no levels at all) and your ‘improvement’ in your skill and functionality should be in the form of getting skill points to unlock your skills, trait points to change your traits around so your more viable.

THAT would be horizontal, since your skill alone determines your success, but skills change your style of play. However, as someone pointed out, if you don’t have ‘levels’ then you have nothing to look forward to!!

Well, that is the case many people are discovering in regards to Orr and the ‘end of the line’ since you can’t really go further than Orr atm. There are no skills to chase. By 80m you’ve unlocked it all, you have all your trait points and probably have a viable build that you can get through any area with, and you’ve run the dungeons, gotten zone completion on many (if not all) zones, have dabbled in WvW, sPvP/tPvP and a slew of other things, and soon, you find that doing XXX again, makes you sick…because tehre is nothing to chase, so you as the player must INVENT ways (or ideas) to entice you to find something to do in the game.

If horizontal leveling is the way it is to be, then cutting out the level 1-80 idea would be a monumental idea in the right direction.

Otherwise, a need to have ‘stuff’ to chase other than uninspiring dungeon costumes.

To my point of view :

1) WvsWvsW is become all about mass zerg a castle, and if you cant, place a Treb on a wall of a castle and destroy the nearest structure. I have played DAOC for a long time, frontiers xp too.. and I do not even recall a memory of 2 structures close to each other. Some sige weapon are too powerfull or can be placed too many times…. WvWvW is become also a SIGE vs SIGE.

2) Dungeon: The excuse " lack of holy trinity" is become a sort of “shield” to craft poor boss design. Some encounters are fun in dungeons.. but many are not… and also the effort put in a dungeon do not reward the time invested. It is ok craft an hard dungeon, it is not ok loot jokes from chests… Also tokens skins have a negative impact on dungeons, because players select the fastest path to farm skipping the rest.

3) Farm for legendary: This is the top of absurdity, the mats needed to craft the legendary instead of being skill and effort based, are only a long..long farm that seem created perfectly for bots (see point 4)

4) Events: The fabled events are only scripts that do not impact the world, cursed shore is become the “farm plinx” (and few related events) for mats (see point 3)

GW2 is more a single player game with a multiplayer layer on it if you choose to play it. You lvl to 80 and if you want, try the dungeons. Since the incentive to do the dungeons is only a skin, its not exactly awe inspiring especially since from the few I’ve seen, they’re no better looking than most of the outside world except for mobs with lots of HPs and a select few specialized encounters that actually take any sort of real strategy. I expect something special from a dungeon. GW2 doesn’t deliver here…yet. Coming from other MMOs, GW2 doesn’t deliver dungeons.

I don’t consider WvW viable at all until I can see EVERY SINGLE PLAYER in my FOV. If any are invisible, the game is completely broken. Sorry. And for the moment it is. And I get to pay repair bills for what is essentially something completely out of my control. No thanks.

PvP is mostly a side dish. 1 play mode=a couple of nights worth of messing around. Nothing to really strive for. So I won a game. Big whoop. What do I get for it? A pat on the back? A new skin eventually? Who cares. No thanks.

RPGs are about progression and GW2’s progression is only skin deep once you hit 80. Actually all your real progression stops once you get the elites you want, which is probably around 60-65.

@ OP, Nothing new and a wasted post. You need to address the failures by the Anet team not the supposings of what you want because like my own “improvements”, they wont happen until these clowns stop getting paid.

Anet pulled the wool over everyones eyes during beta making statements that there was no grind or farming compared to other games, we are different, simple BS.

Now with the farmers and boxers running the show alongside Anet the majority of the community has no voice, except for the few of us that come onto these forums and have to play forum wars with insensitive moderators supporting the farmers and deleting negative posts about the the devs lack of success or crap game mechanics.

This game needs choice, for everyone, it does not need raiding, it does not need gold sold ingame like Anet is doing right now, it does not need game mechanics wrapped intimately around their gemstore, it does not need farming, it does not need boxers, and yet these devs just read these posts and shrug and smile.

It does need one thing badly, to have everything bind on pickup and account bound, including gold, mechanics need to be built around this, not farming.

With all the spin Anet pushed during beta, what changed verse any other farming mmo’s supported by the devs and a microtransaction store? Nothing. They have a ton of work to do and they know it because i wont spend a dime on these people until they pull their heads out and fix the game till it operates the way they stated it would.

The Anet team forgot one title when they made this game, maybe they should put it on the gemstore for purchase, Farmer.

Have a good day now, i have some butts in my smoker to attend to.

One thing, and I’m not sure if it is this way later in the game, is that you shouldn’t just be fighting a boss. The mines of moria scene in the fellowship of the ring movie is the perfect example of a dungeon in my opinion. You’ve got lots of weakittentle monsters you have to keep from overwhelming you while you try to take down the really powerful boss. This way it has to be more coordinated, rather than everyone spamming the boss as hard as they can and occasionally avoiding his area attacks

Mr International.3715:

One thing, and I’m not sure if it is this way later in the game, is that you shouldn’t just be fighting a boss. The mines of moria scene in the fellowship of the ring movie is the perfect example of a dungeon in my opinion. You’ve got lots of weakittentle monsters you have to keep from overwhelming you while you try to take down the really powerful boss. This way it has to be more coordinated, rather than everyone spamming the boss as hard as they can and occasionally avoiding his area attacks

Lol, you didn’t play the game and do the raids there…

But I get what you mean.

If you want that experience…just go to Orr. there is enough ‘weakling’ mobs between every point that it shoudl satisfy this….requirement.

new dlc: In the podcast, Colin said a new type of dungeon would be added where as you move through it, it gets progressively harder and harder, but with better and better rewards. He also said the new zone would be there to stay, and the one time event would change all of Tyria, just like the Lions Arch Lion statue is now gone…or something like that. Sounds pretty awesome to me.
edit: the dungeon is in this zone. He also said they’re working on more ENDGAME CONTENT as we speak. He didn’t even deny the working of 10 person “dungeons”

Darlantan.5638:

The problem is it has endgame whether they want to coin it or not. The game doesn’t have very many different things or paths to do. It’s basically level to 80, level the worthless crafting system to max, grind some dungeons perhaps and explore. All of which can be done relatively quickly. After that you’re stuck with two options WvW or work on a legendary.

But the problem is you cannot set your own adventure in this game the paths are literally chosen and once you hit 80 there really isn’t a drive to continue playing, especially if you’re not interesting in a legendary or WvW. GW2 is essentially a theme-park MMO which means it has end game because you’re limited to the things you can do upon turning 80.

You don’t want “endgame”, you want progression. Which, don’t get me wrong, is a perfectly valid thing to want, but even back to GW1 the game was never about increasing your power.

The focus has always been on the gameplay. Which is precisely why I want Arenanet to publicly dismiss the term “endgame”, so that people stop coming to this game expecting gear ladders to climb.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not going to pretend anyone with a business is going to say, “hey, your idea of turning a bunch of customers away is GREAT!”, but there has to be a way to get across to generic_subscription_MMO_addict_01 that this game is actually about the game, and not about making one’s numbers higher on a dps chart. There has to be a way to change their perception and their expectations, instead of the “we’re looking into that and we appreciate your feedback” spiel that’s going to happen forever if nothing does change.

Corian.4068:

Darlantan.5638:

The problem is it has endgame whether they want to coin it or not. The game doesn’t have very many different things or paths to do. It’s basically level to 80, level the worthless crafting system to max, grind some dungeons perhaps and explore. All of which can be done relatively quickly. After that you’re stuck with two options WvW or work on a legendary.

But the problem is you cannot set your own adventure in this game the paths are literally chosen and once you hit 80 there really isn’t a drive to continue playing, especially if you’re not interesting in a legendary or WvW. GW2 is essentially a theme-park MMO which means it has end game because you’re limited to the things you can do upon turning 80.

You don’t want “endgame”, you want progression. Which, don’t get me wrong, is a perfectly valid thing to want, but even back to GW1 the game was never about increasing your power.

The focus has always been on the gameplay. Which is precisely why I want Arenanet to publicly dismiss the term “endgame”, so that people stop coming to this game expecting gear ladders to climb.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not going to pretend anyone with a business is going to say, “hey, your idea of turning a bunch of customers away is GREAT!”, but there has to be a way to get across to generic_subscription_MMO_addict_01 that this game is actually about the game, and not about making one’s numbers higher on a dps chart. There has to be a way to change their perception and their expectations, instead of the “we’re looking into that and we appreciate your feedback” spiel that’s going to happen forever if nothing does change.

In GW1 it was ALWAYS about increasing your power. Every new skill you obtained increased your power. Why?? Because certain builds with a key skill, or several key skills engineered and played toward your style was powerful.

As an Ele, I played a Point Blank Bomber build, nice to sneak up on mesmers with, or stomp those warriors with. Not everyone could play this style, and worked for me, because in my hands, it was powerful. But not so in everyone else’s.

Power was always a factor, it was how you obtained that power that was more in tune with a horizontal porgression than this current model.

well yeah, i just got the game havent done a single dungeon or anything, but other games ive played are like that, and it makes the boss feel like a fancy target dummy in my opinion. just throwin it out there because im Mr. International and i can

I’d say the easiest option now is adding more endgame tiers. Might already be in the works.

For instance, legendaries: apart from making them a personal (not possible to buy any significant part with cash/exploit gold) project, add tiers. Crafting a precursor might be step 1. You’d need to recraft it with new gifts at every stage. The skin should slowly change each step toward the full legendary. Make each step twice as expensive, so that say a tier 5 legendary costs as much as 16 tier 1 legendaries (and so on). Thus, players constantly have a new goal to shoot for. Bonus points for branching (that is, each legendary has 2 different ways to upgrade).
Thus you spread out the progress.

Likewise with challenges. Clocktower was apparently meant to be such a one: you could go for the bonus chests or try get further. Dungeons could use a similar system, where only the best players could actually reach the end.

Add huge scavenger hunts. To prevent the wiki-shortcut, consider randomizing the locations – specific to each player. The further steps should take one to the hardest areas and challenges, but with an ultimately great reward (unique items, say). A full hunt should probably take days.

Add a vault to store all unique items, legendaries and so on (as well as costumes etc). Thus players can look at their accomplishments (similar to HoM) – and not have to carry them around all the time.

As for events… while the Orr invasion was nice, ideally the end game is a warzone that the Pact cannot win. The further they get, the harder, until it’s just too much to handle. A system of interconnected event chains that, seems to me, is the future. Consider a map alike the EB, with two NPC factions that get stronger as they lose territory. And which don’t use one chain, but will try different ways of attacking.

For the perhaps far future, imagine that, but on a map many times larger and with more factions. Where a single castle siege has the scale of the invasion of Orr. Better still, let players side with different factions, as mercenaries. Also, make the NPCs a force to be reckoned with, instead of the pushovers they tend to be.

How about some sort of endgame horizontal advancement system? Something that takes forever to cap, so level 80 feels less like game over. Ideally, two different versions, one for PvE and one for PvP, so that to cap both, you’d have to do both. and both having uses in PvE and PvP (WvW) so that the two facets of gameplay feel better tied together.

Also, community incentives, like Relics and Darkness Falls, for WvW. i.e. rewards that have more substance. Not just little bonuses, but fun things players will actively covet and strive for, for their server.

Endgame progression doesn’t have to be about gear. That’s just one way of doing it, and hold almost no appeal for me, personally. What good is progression that constantly needs to be replaced? I’d rather have something intrinsic to my character, to keep building on.

I don’t really understand this design with the end-game. This is an MMORPG, yet your role doesn’t really progresses as the game goes along (in traditional MMOs, as you progress with lvling you get skills unlocked – job advancement and such). Yes, you do get more traits and sp for newer utility skills as you lvl, but at the end of the day if you like to go progress deeper into a role: like a dedicated healer, tank, etc….. you can’t because what’s given to you (ie. all the weapon skills unlocked somewhere before lvl 10) are all that you got to work with. It’s not the same as – you got into a healer because you like that role, now you want to be even more specific with that role so you become a priest and not a guardian. GW2’s builds IMO are shallow… in terms of unique varieties of individual class roles; and that’s really why players complain about all these end-game none-sense…. because they miss that skill progression as you journey from lower lvl to higher lvl, become better at what you do the more play the game. While I do love how I unlock all my weapon skills in the game, I was disappointing with the depth of those skill effects; “knock back your foe with your rifle (CD= 10+ seconds)” <- THAT’S ONE SKILL. So really, I don’t get how people say that GW2 has enough skills per class… because a lot of the skills are almost like “half of what you expect from a skill”. And so instead of being able to role a class the way you want it, they’ve created a skill system where all you/them need to do is tweak the stats to balance things… and the cost of that is that players are limited to simple skills that players get bored at. You can talk about lack of rewards, lack of content, lack of progression… but at the end of the day what players do in game the most is FIGHT; that’s what the hours are spent on, even when people travel they just want to kill random mobs along the way. So if the fight’s bad; everything else will seem less entertaining.

I just wanted to take the time to say thank you for all of the responses. Even though everyone may not agree in this discussion; many of you have brought forth original and intelligent ideas for this issue. I appreciate those of you who took the time and put some thought into your posts.

As a follow up, I watched a recording of the interview with mmorpg.com. And I must say, it brings me hope as to what Arenanet will bring to the table for the level 80s in the future. This “new dungeon” intrigues me greatly, with its increasing difficulty and unique rewards. I hope the developers take an equal amount of time to polish the current (indoor and outdoor) dungeon content.

I look forward to playing with you all for years to come.

Atryue
Lvl 80 Guard, Anvil Rock

MangoMan.3218:

I’m not a WoW player, so I’ve never done a raid, but they sound fun, and I would like to see them.
A bit of a side note, I think there should be small karma rewards to doing things that would normally help fill in a heart, even though it’s already filled. It’s just a bit bothering to me that I have the ability to help a NPC in a way such as bringing defense plans to some guy, but I don’t get anything because I’ve already filled in that heart.

Hehe, the side note was bigger than my first comment.

In a way you are lucky you never experienced WoW end game back in Vanilla and BC because then you would be spoiled like a lot of us. The best end game ever. Now over all no one has even come close. Not even other WoW expansions. Cata was the worst. MoP has gotten a lot better but still nothing like it was. Wrath had Ulduar and ICC wasn’t horrible. But back to my point, you may enjoy end game more so then others since you didn’t get to experience Vanilla or BC WoW.

But if you want to see them then you will need to play WoW, ToR, Rift or LotR as I feel those are your best options for end game right now. I never tried Rifts or LotR but heard they are ok. I really like ToR’s end game as they have an actual storyline feel but they made them too short and a little too easy. WoW is still the best though.

JSmooth.7654:

What is end game? I’ll define “end game” as: “What to do when you hit max level.”

I disagree with your definition of end-game.

I go with ArenaNet’s definition of end game instead. Which I find more appropriate. And if I’m brutally honest, I normally either laugh or simply stop reading, the moment anyone mentions “levels”, “levelling”, “level 80” etc in the context of “end game”. My first reaction is to regard such people (unfairly or not) as:

• Brainwashed by “traditional MMO” organ grinders
• Conditioned to expect levels to be important, and in particular to define when “end game” has been reached
• Unable to “learn new tricks” beyond their original conditioning
• Need “progression” once they reach max level (eg. for gear, preferably with lots of grind to complain about)
• No longer capable of having fun in a game: games are instead, jobs to be worked at – to gain top level, gain rarest equipment, tick boxes etc, as fast as (and preferably faster) than their brainwashed brethren.

Either that or simply someone jumping on the “end game” bandwagon – “end game” being the new “immersion” – currently the most fashionable thing to complain about.

“End game” for me, is when I run out of places to go and things to do in the game that I enjoy. It’s that simple, and it’s completely unrelated to levels or gear – such things are of little/no consequence to me.

All I want from A-net is new content every now and then. Which is exactly what they’re planning. And Halloween was a great start. If A-net can’t produce content as fast as I can consume it, no monthly fees means I’ll simply put the game down and come back to it when the next content is released.

KeikoTerada.1963:

JSmooth.7654:

What is end game? I’ll define “end game” as: “What to do when you hit max level.”

I disagree with your definition of end-game.

I go with ArenaNet’s definition of end game instead. Which I find more appropriate. And if I’m brutally honest, I normally either laugh or simply stop reading, the moment anyone mentions “levels”, “levelling”, “level 80” etc in the context of “end game”. My first reaction is to regard such people (unfairly or not) as:

• Brainwashed by “traditional MMO” organ grinders
• Conditioned to expect levels to be important, and in particular to define when “end game” has been reached
• Unable to “learn new tricks” beyond their original conditioning
• Need “progression” once they reach max level (eg. for gear, preferably with lots of grind to complain about)
• No longer capable of having fun in a game: games are instead, jobs to be worked at – to gain top level, gain rarest equipment, tick boxes etc, as fast as (and preferably faster) than their brainwashed brethren.

Either that or simply someone jumping on the “end game” bandwagon – “end game” being the new “immersion” – currently the most fashionable thing to complain about.

“End game” for me, is when I run out of places to go and things to do in the game that I enjoy. It’s that simple, and it’s completely unrelated to levels or gear – such things are of little/no consequence to me.

All I want from A-net is new content every now and then. Which is exactly what they’re planning. And Halloween was a great start. If A-net can’t produce content as fast as I can consume it, no monthly fees means I’ll simply put the game down and come back to it when the next content is released.

Yes, because all us ‘brain-washed’ MMO veteran super stars came to this game thinking it would be same-ol’ same ol’, even after being told it was a ‘new’ MMO with ‘new’ features…

Yes, we came to this game because it promised to be the same as every other MMO out there.

Or maybe because it promised that it wouldn’t???? Not sure on this, I didn’t come to this game expecting things like ‘end-game’ and vertical progression, but what this game gave me was certainly not what I was envisioning, and what it gave me…ultimately drove me away.

teviko.6049:

what this game gave me was certainly not what I was envisioning, and what it gave me…ultimately drove me away.

And yet here you are.

KeikoTerada.1963:

teviko.6049:

what this game gave me was certainly not what I was envisioning, and what it gave me…ultimately drove me away.

And yet here you are.

On the forums..

not in game. .. . .. . …

Someone already said it, but I’d like to reiterate: part of the problem many may be having with this game is that it’s not really an RPG. It has the structural elements of one: classes, races, levels, magic, etc, but it lacks the heart that the good one’s really have. Part of that, a big part I think, is that getting the same kind of love to a character and depth of story that makes RPG’ers so passionate about their favorite games seems almost impossible to create in an indefinitely sustained game like an MMO. Previous games tried to do it with dungeons and raids: it was the place to put your epic storylines. Yet even they were still made up of thousands of meaningless quests that would only barely touch on the main plot.

Guild Wars 2 is an action game, one that gets you to the highest level pretty quickly and then gives you repeatable competative events to participate in. That’s really it. Part of the problem is that with the lack of depth in terms of skill options even those events made to be dynamic such as sPvP and WvW are really quite static. You generally know what you’ll do, which exact buttons you’ll use and in which combination you’ll push them, and sometimes even the exact pattern you’ll move around the field in. These things are likely never to change. Now this may be exactly the kind of gameplay that some people want (in fact I’m sure of it), but I don’t think it’s necessarily the same group that have been doing MMO’s in the past. This game takes a new stance, a new approach that’s far more casual, more simplistic, and lacking in depth. I wouldn’t even necessarily say that endgame in those other games was really the best answer, just that it certainly struck closer towards what traditional (I use the term loosely) RPG’ers enjoyed.

I guess in summary what I’m saying is that this game is the Torchlight II of MMO’s. It’s pretty, it’s fun in a repetative sort of way, but it’s not the kind of game that will give me memories to cherish in the long-term.

WAY TOO EASY AND really BORING

-Too easy you can get the “exotic” (stuff everyone has) armor is about 10-20 hours of play and at little to no challenge because its so easy everyone can easily do it. Because of this you dont feel accomplished because everyone can do it and there goes your replayabilty once you have the gear.
-Boring there is very few encounters that have a different feel or fun mechanics most can be first tried. Easy encounters is fine the first time but when you run them 2,3,4 times it becomes a monotonous grind

Corian.4068:

Darlantan.5638:

The problem is it has endgame whether they want to coin it or not. The game doesn’t have very many different things or paths to do. It’s basically level to 80, level the worthless crafting system to max, grind some dungeons perhaps and explore. All of which can be done relatively quickly. After that you’re stuck with two options WvW or work on a legendary.

But the problem is you cannot set your own adventure in this game the paths are literally chosen and once you hit 80 there really isn’t a drive to continue playing, especially if you’re not interesting in a legendary or WvW. GW2 is essentially a theme-park MMO which means it has end game because you’re limited to the things you can do upon turning 80.

You don’t want “endgame”, you want progression. Which, don’t get me wrong, is a perfectly valid thing to want, but even back to GW1 the game was never about increasing your power.

The focus has always been on the gameplay. Which is precisely why I want Arenanet to publicly dismiss the term “endgame”, so that people stop coming to this game expecting gear ladders to climb.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not going to pretend anyone with a business is going to say, “hey, your idea of turning a bunch of customers away is GREAT!”, but there has to be a way to get across to generic_subscription_MMO_addict_01 that this game is actually about the game, and not about making one’s numbers higher on a dps chart. There has to be a way to change their perception and their expectations, instead of the “we’re looking into that and we appreciate your feedback” spiel that’s going to happen forever if nothing does change.

Actually I don’t even want progression. I just want my character to have an impact on the world and be useful in others. Such as in the original Ultima Online my character with 100 Blacksmithing/Carpenter and others stats were useful to other characters. I could make and sell stuff for trade can’t do that in this game as the production of items cost more than the materials or the same.

Not to mention in UO it wasn’t just about grinding levels, grinding a quest or following the game’s “set” path. It was about me doing what I wanting to do and having usefulness with it and just not character usefulness but the game world included. In GW2 my character is completely detached from the world what I do virtually has NO IMPACT in the game world or even for my character. I am not asking for it to be stronger I am asking for it to have some type of RP element to where my character acutally matters in the game. Whether it can be a very successful tradesment, a treasure hunter, a mercenary for hire(pvp), or even just glorified riches of owning a house and decorating it to however I wish.

Now… Do you understand as to what I am speaking of? Because I am not talking about progression, I hate continuous gear/skill progression. In fact that’s the only thing I even like about this game. But everything else about it is no different from WoW or any other theme park MMO. Which is why I haven’t’ signed on for over 2 weeks and mostly likely won’t even bother with the Nov. update either.