Guild Wars 2

Hi everyone,

I’m quite new to Guild Wars 2 and absolutely love the game. However I have some serious concerns regarding design decisions that have been made and would like to foster a discussion in order to properly understand the implications.

There is a lot of discussion around “the zerker meta” and claiming that defensive stats need a buff. I’ll leave that discussion for others. I’m much more interested in discussing the failings of the condition system and its impact on the meta.

At the moment I’m playing a Necromancer focusing on Conditions. I find the build exceptional in PVP and small group/solo WvW roaming. However it is quite apparent that conditions have some fundamental problems in Guild Wars 2 that render the play-style sub-optimal.

I expect that everything I write below is well known to many experienced/veteran GW2 players. I apologise if this post is seen as a waste of time.

Condition Stacks & Diminishing Returns
As a condition-based Necromancer, stacking Bleeds is one of my primary modes of damage. I take pride in the fact that I can stack bleeds on a Champion to 16-25 solo. As soon as you add another bleed-stacking class, my individual DPS is reduced. This is even more pronounced in world events – my upper DPS limit is essentially bound to my auto attack damage which, when built for +Condition Damage, is extremely poor.

Ultimately this reduces my role in World Events to dealing with adds – not a huge problem (and something I enjoy) but if all condition players start dealing with the adds, then we’re facing the same problem just to a lesser degree.

For duration-stacking conditions (e.g. Burning) the damage is not necessarily hard-capped, but your damage is suffering from diminishing returns – i.e., your DPS cannot be improved by adding more burning, but at least the damage is not completely lost.

Analysis: Condition damage in GW2 simply doesn’t scale in groups. There is a hard limit on what is possible – the single-target DPS output of 5 condition-spec players is likely to be quite similar to 2.

From what I can understand, the lack of individual condition stacks on a target is due to a technology issue – which I can understand after seeing 100s of people DPSing down Claw of Jormag for example.

However, would it not be possible to convert some percentage of “lost” DPS into direct damage? For example if I were to Scepter auto-attack (as a Necromancer) on a target with 25 bleeds, could I not get some appropriate % of the bleed damage I would have dealt instantaneously applied?

This would encourage the use of my condition-applying skills even when the stacks are capped out as I would be providing significant DPS. It would also aid in destroying structures, which is extremely frustrating when wielding Rabid gear.

Keep in mind that this isn’t ideal – I’d prefer my conditions are applied individually – but the concession to having a viable and worthy place in the PVE meta would outweigh my misgivings.

Impact on the Meta and the Community
All multiplayer games with a competitive element will appeal to optimizers (or min-maxers). I consider myself an optimizer – the fact that my preferred playstyle is almost irrelevant for some content (e.g. most comps for 5 man content, world bosses, doing anything with structures in a reasonable amount of time) causes me a lot of grief.

It’s no surprise that Berserker gear and builds that best make use of it are popular. It’s also no surprise that for any serious/dedicated player, maximizing Power is the only viable option.

For a game about horizontal progression, rendering a popular playstyle as irrelevant due to design decisions/technical limitations simply isn’t good enough. The fact that I agonise daily over playing my condition Necromancer (“but it’s terrible in more than half of the content”) is not endearing me to the game, despite everything I love about it.

Analysis: With condition damage essentially hard-capped in group content and the natural desire to finish content as quickly as possible, condition-based builds and the players who enjoy them are ostracised from dedicated/efficient groups. For those who enjoy the playstyle, but also want to optimize, this creates an untenable situation and makes certain aspects of the game very difficult to enjoy.

With the lack of viability of condition damage, power (and Berserker gear specifically) is the only viable choice. This in turn limits the range of each class – their weapon, trait and utility selections all have to conform to sustain/support or power. This in term reduces the meta and restricts creativity, freedom and enjoyment.

Questions:
Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the condition system?
What are ArenaNet doing to fix these problems?
How do you feel as a condition-based player in the current meta?

Code.5719:

Questions:
Do I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the condition system?
What are ArenaNet doing to fix these problems?
How do you feel as a condition-based player in the current meta?

In order: No, nothing (that we’ve heard about), and despondent.

You nailed the dps/balance aspect of conditions and it’s problems, but the condition mechanic itself is so flawed that, IMO, it’s completely unsalvageable. Consider the following two facts:

1. Every non-dd targeted effect in the game is a condition.
2. Thus, every non-dd targeted effect in the game share one counter move.

Nobody ever seems to think about this- everything is a condition. Is it any wonder that the PVP meta requires as much condition removal as you can squeeze onto your character? Control, DPS, interrupts, debuffs- it’s all done with conditions, and it’s all countered by one single mechanic. The “move-observe opponent-countermove” process that’s so important to pvp is strangled by this one mechanic.

Conditions need to be completely scrapped and redesigned, not just fixed. Otherwise it will never be more then Super Smash Brothers (+grinds) online.

This is a subject that has been actively pursued almost since launch. The problem is that condition damage is managed as stacks on a mob rather than as damage by player. And yes, in any typical grouping of players, if you are running a pure condition build you are probably just adding ‘white’ damage to the encounter. And, if you added five more condition builds you wouldn’t be adding significant damage to the encounter.

What does this mean? Condition damage and condition builds don’t work in groups in GW2. Other games have encountered and addressed this problem. If you are playing WoW for example and are running a DoT spec, your damage is managed on a player by player basis and you are doing comparable sustained damage to a direct damage build but delivering it over time. Anet implemented it in such a way that you are not only not doing comparable damage, you are probably, in fact, doing inconsequential damage.

If you are a game developer you really shouldn’t have to think about stuff like this. It should be baseline knowledge. Yeah, condition damage, while it is fine soloing and has a niche in PvP, doesn’t work in groups in GW2. Anet has acknowledged it’s a problem. There is no ETA on a fix.

Edit: I should elaborate. Anet has admitted the problem and initially played the technical limitations card by saying that managing damage by player was not possible for performance reasons and that’s why it’s stacks on mobs. They were reminded that other games have been managing DoT damage by player for years. I think they have taken this knowledge to heart and now know that they have a problem that they created and that can be fixed. There is no technical reason why condition damage cannot be managed by player. Obviously, the only way condition damage will work in the game is when it is managed by player.They have not indicated when this will be fixed.

This is a well known problem, even the devs have admitted it is a problem. Of course they admitted that 15 months ago. Since that time we have not heard a single word about it. There have been several 100+ response threads discussing it but no dev has ever said anything further.

As new mechanics and content is added to the game it seems to be deliberately designed to discourage the use of condition damage. I think their ultimate solution is to try and drive people away from conditions until they % of players using them is small enough for them to say the time spent fixing it would be better spent elsewhere.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I think their ultimate solution is to try and drive people away from conditions until they % of players using them is small enough for them to say the time spent fixing it would be better spent elsewhere.

That’s quite cynical, though I do understand your frustration.

It would be beneficial to hear an updated response from ArenaNet – I feel quite silly for having invested in Ascended Rabid Trinkets and do feel as though I need to re-roll to meet my personal goals in-game (as power Necro is not a playstyle that I enjoy).

Rhyse.8179:

Nobody ever seems to think about this- everything is a condition. Is it any wonder that the PVP meta requires as much condition removal as you can squeeze onto your character? Control, DPS, interrupts, debuffs- it’s all done with conditions, and it’s all countered by one single mechanic. The “move-observe opponent-countermove” process that’s so important to pvp is strangled by this one mechanic.

That is a fantastic point. It’s not so much rock-paper-scissors – evade counters power and cleanse counts conditions. As much as I love GW2 I’m really frustrated by these fundamental flaws.

It is known.

The things you describe are well known and have been discussed at length.

It has been 2 years and these very same things still exist.

I look forward to these posts 2 years from now.

Not being able to stack more than 25 bleeds or stack individual, broke the game. ArenaNet admitted it long time ago.