Guild Wars 2

Hello,

I read a lot of people on this forum arguing about Vertical vs Horizontal progression. more specifically, how they can’t co-exist. I disagree that this is the case, due to the shallow power curve ArenaNet is using for the stats on gear.

The following “graphs” will serve as an illustration of my point.

The Y axis represents the time (in years) that the gear is viable for all content.
The X axis represents the relative power of gear and its difficulty to obtain.

Guild Wars 2’s Power “Curve” (Hybrid HP+VP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 2 3 4 5 6
Year 3: = 3 4 5 6 7

WoW’s Power Curve (Traditional Vertical Progression)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 5
Year 2: = 10 12 14 16
Year 3: = 24 28 32 36

As you can see, in previous VP models, the higher sets of gear vastly out performed it’s previous item levels, even in the same year/expansion. With new gear roll outs every 4-6 months, if you fell off the treadmill you became noticeably sub-par.

ArenaNet seems to understand this pitfall, choosing instead to use a much lower rise in power over time. Combined with its combat system that rewards skill use on the fly rather than skill use on rotation, this makes for a less noticeable (but still satisfying) difference between gear sets. This allows 2 things:

1. Gear of various rarity (but same level req.) can compete with each other without the feeling insignificant.
2. Content can be balanced for Exotic gear and all gear from masterwork to ascended is viable, and no content is gated by gear checks until high fractals.

Going forward

I’m not privy to what’s ahead, if Anet decides in 2014 to raise the level cap and introduce 10 levels of blue/green/yellow/orange/pink, I hope they choose to flatten the gear curve substantially compared to the difference between 70-80, relying on base stats for the power increase. This will keep old gear from becoming immediately obsolete (stat-wise only, transmutation keeps them from becoming entirely useless).

Ideally, I’d like (level 80) Ascended to be the gear cap, with masterwork, rare, exotic infusions being the level 90 “gear increase.” I believe this would mark the successful hybridization of Horizontal and Vertical Progression.

Or maybe GW2 could be the exception and keep being a game about gaming.
There are a lot of pay-to-work MMOs out there, no need for GW2 to pick that route imo.

If you look closer at what we have now, you will realize that a shift from horizontal to vertical is already happening, and happening fast. How, you likely wonder? There are only a few ascended type items so far, ater all?
And yet, what has been introduced up to this point shows us that Anet (for some unexplained reason they refuse to share with us) has already started to limit the breath of options by removing from highest tier most of the viable stat sets. The direction of progress is no longer sideways. It’s only up, and very narrow.

Horizontal progression in GW2 is entering now its agonal stages.

I agree with you.

But I think having shallow gear progression that doesn’t invalidate previous rarities constitutes “pay to work” or a mandatory gear grind. Especially when the time frame for acquiring the gear is so long.

I had hoped – based on what ANet promised to begin with (about gear being cosmetic and not power, the old horizontal vs. vertical debate) – that gear in GW2 would be handled similar to GW1.
It was indeed one of the main lures of this game for me on top of the WvW model where I wouldn’t be ‘left behind’ the gear curve if only worrying about that.

Unfortunately – it wasn’t what happened, and I hope ANet now have learned from their ascended debacle and FotM mess.

If I wanted to grind gear, there are already many games on the market where I could have done that and have done that.
GW2 was supposed to be different – so the question is; what direction will ANet take now and through 2013.

And yet, this is not what people want. The succesful model this game was marketed to follows was:

Guild Wars 1’s Power “Curve” (HP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 3: = 1 2 3 4 5

marnick.4305:

And yet, this is not what people want. The succesful model this game was marketed to follows was:

Guild Wars 1’s Power “Curve” (HP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 3: = 1 2 3 4 5

This is not what I gleaned from the 2010, 2011, or 2012 marketing, but I’ve noticed that everyone expecting a completely flat gear plateau were 100% GW1 players. I knew from the first beta that was not the case.
I played GW1 (for about 8 months per campaign) and the stagnant gear was one of my biggest gripes. Apparently Anet agreed.

Mackdose.6504:

marnick.4305:

And yet, this is not what people want. The succesful model this game was marketed to follows was:

Guild Wars 1’s Power “Curve” (HP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 3: = 1 2 3 4 5

This is not what I gleaned from the 2010, 2011, or 2012 marketing, but I’ve noticed that everyone expecting a completely flat gear plateau were 100% GW1 players. I knew from the first beta that was not the case.
I played GW1 (for about 8 months per campaign) and the stagnant gear was one of my biggest gripes. Apparently Anet agreed.

First of, you can’t glance such things from a beta ending at level 30.

Second, a.net agreeing with you shows just how disastrous a vocal minority can be for a company.

The “stagnant” gear in GW1 was is greatest feature. It was the unique selling point for the game. I still hope I can say the same about GW2 in a few years. Sure it’ll take time to get full ascended but once you have it, your character is really done.

It feels good to complete a toon. In GW1 you could really beat the game. That’s a unique feature amongst MMOs.

Mackdose.6504:

I played GW1 (for about 8 months per campaign) and the stagnant gear was one of my biggest gripes. Apparently Anet agreed.

For a lot of us who have tried many different MMOs over the last decade and found out that all of them are basically just different companies’ rendition of WoW, grinding gear for better stats is what we consider stagnant and unoriginal. And if the rumored 23% power increase for full ascended over exotic turns out to be true…it will be anything but optional at some point in the future.

marnick.4305:

Mackdose.6504:

marnick.4305:

And yet, this is not what people want. The succesful model this game was marketed to follows was:

Guild Wars 1’s Power “Curve” (HP)
== Attainability
== Easy < —-——— > Hard
Year 1: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 2: = 1 2 3 4 5
Year 3: = 1 2 3 4 5

This is not what I gleaned from the 2010, 2011, or 2012 marketing, but I’ve noticed that everyone expecting a completely flat gear plateau were 100% GW1 players. I knew from the first beta that was not the case.
I played GW1 (for about 8 months per campaign) and the stagnant gear was one of my biggest gripes. Apparently Anet agreed.

First of, you can’t glance such things from a beta ending at level 30.

Multiple gear rarities? Higher level cap? That’s vertical progression right there.

Second, a.net agreeing with you shows just how disastrous a vocal minority can be for a company.

The “stagnant” gear in GW1 was is greatest feature. It was the unique selling point for the game. I still hope I can say the same about GW2 in a few years. Sure it’ll take time to get full ascended but once you have it, your character is really done.

It feels good to complete a toon. In GW1 you could really beat the game. That’s a unique feature amongst MMOs.

It’s not a feature of MMOs. GW1 wasn’t an MMO, it was a mission based co-op RPG with a fancy lobby system.

I’m not some VP elitist who’s clamoring for more items to separate haves from have nots. I quit WoW because I was tired of the constant rollout of crap that punished me for having a job and social life.

Guild Wars 2 has not punished me for these things because there is no “falling behind.”

I’m being cautiously optimistic that Anet can pull off having VP in the game without alienating non-hardcore types from end-game content. I’m praising the fact that their design is basically destroying the negatives of vertical progression, giving people goals without limiting options.

I can’t believe people are actually against this philosophy.

hey dont lump gw1 players all in the same boat. me and my guild all played gw1 for over 6 years, and granted we loved that game alot but the new gear system actualy works rather nice. All you need to to get full set of exotics and your set, you can do almost anything. And for those who want to push their stats even farther their are Ascended items. But ascended items dont feel required. (they may be for fractals but i havent set foot in there).

the gear system is fine, i just wish they had done with less levels so more content would have been “End game”

Aven.7295:

the gear system is fine, i just wish they had done with less levels so more content would have been “End game”

100% agreed, but from what the roadmap looks like, we’re in for a ton of content coming down the pipe.

It’s easy to look on the game and the forums to see that they cannot coexist culturally.

The fact is that Guild Wars was so different that backlash is expected, yet the new players will not kitten off either because of the tremendous hype that the game had and because of their wish to play an MMo that is better than what they have played so far, which GW still succeeds at despite being lower in quality than what old GW players were used to.

The result is, as percieved, is that you can tear at each other’s throats for the next 7 years, trying to decide which direction the game should go.

Alternatively, something might happen when it “succeeds” at revolutionizing the genre by spawning off a few clones that will serve as alternatives for those who just want to play a “new generation MMO”. Looking at the new trailers of TES Online and how they refer to their combat system as “similar to GW2” that’s probably gonna be the first one in the line.

At that point the game may die of abandonment or Anet may take some steps in the other direction, back to the old manifesto, provited there’s gonna be enough old GW players who still care at that point. Of course, they may do that sooner, who knows.

i agree the armor in gw1 was great. lvl 20 armor was lvl 20 armor, no matter what kind it was.

I dont realy mind the gear as it is in gw2. atm, i have just yellow lvl 80 gear, and im doing fine with it sofar (im in matlchiors leap, hope i spelled that right ).

Saving my karma for when i can get the karma orange one.

grind is what you create your self i think. you dont have to.