Guild Wars 2

The Devs I think have made the game slightly unbalanced trying to cater for everyone.
I think of myself as in-between casual and hardcore but I probably am on the borderline. To this end I have resigned myself to the fact I will never have Legendary. I have no chance. The players getting them now must be spending either a very unhealthy and not recommended amount of playing time on the game (bad Anet for encouraging this) or buying from gold sellers (Anets fault again since the cost of diamonds in real money and then transferring them to gold is ridiculously costly).

This may seem fair to be people that Legendaries should only be carried by the most dedicated and I agree as they are only skins. However even exotics are costly for me and those I wish to have are a long term objective too. Are they meant to be so costly and I don’t make gold that fast? Also reading about folks saying to buy that unbreakable bell off the tp when it costs 65 gold approx (I think someone sold it for that) sounds nearly as inaccessible as Legendaries.

However the balance in events and puzzles seems to also favor the more hardcore. The last two holiday events puzzles are so difficult probably only the top 30% of the player base can manage them. For some these are apparently easy to master but we cant all be major league platformer players some of us want to enjoy the game at our level all the same if you get what I mean. The difficulty does actually make me feel very much excluded and I’m not happy at this. The bell game has turned me off too as it seems quite difficult. I don’t know if Anet have struck a good balance here with their player base.

The Fractals to me are a joke as I don’t see any benefit doing them more than a few times as I get the impression its the same content except becoming more difficult and I cant be bothered with this “lfm fractal lvl so and so” so these things combined are again a turn off. I find it ironic in a game that has been designed to be level friendly so players can down level or up level in Fractals you must be at the correct level to progress meaning many players are not interested in doing lower level fractals and it can be a pain getting a party.

Obviously I enjoy other aspects of the game but Devs need to consider if the balance of the game is geared towards giving the hardcore player most of the reward and just allowing us more casual players to have a little fun unless we spend hoards of time or money. I would actually spend money if I thought I was getting value but the current cost for diamonds then converting diamonds to gold is just greedy imo.

The subscription model isn’t so bad looking at the Guild Wars 2 business model in the current light as subscription models I have played like DDO in comparison to GW2 have been a lot more favorable to casual players.

What makes me most sad is that I want to be able to play an MMO where, character, story and quest is king and everyone is questing together. However it seems far too many people only want to solo quest mostly and do the diversions to death.

This may seem fair to be people that Legendaries should only be carried by the most dedicated and I agree as they are only skins.

Not the case anymore. I was totally indifferent towards legendaries, until Arena announced the new ascended tier, and that only legendary weapons will stay “best in slot” when ascended weapons finally appear. So now a legendary is not a skin but a top-tier best in slot weapon. So..

The game has its strenghs and its weaknesses. Come to terms with it and you’ll have a much better time here.

Now about your points :

a) legendary : If it’s too much of a hassle…do not bother with it. I’m not and I feel great about it. Seriously, that is all it takes to solve the issue.

b) exotic gear : it isn’t in the same basket as exotic, like, at all. Sure you can pay to win if that’s what you’re into and get your set right off the TP…or you could do dungeons…. one is considerably cheaper than the other option (also you get loot in the process zomg !!!!11).

c) fractals : yes it was a bit of a design mistake to put a “levels cleared” requirement in the new dungeon. I mean, if I can join explorable mode while having not cleared story on any of the original dungeons, why can’t I do that with the fractals ? I guess the reason is just because it would take the majority of the players a long, long time before they can get close to lvl20 so they may farm the new skins and ascended drops.
Just basically they made the next goal too hard to reach until their next ascended content upgrade whereit will be made much easier…I do hope they know what they are doing and that this does not become a trend, and that it was just a way to save time until they are finished with whatever they are working on.

d) subscription fees : Seriously? You complain that a game is too grindy for your taste and your solution is to play them monthly ??? Your logic is so flawed it’s beyond words.
Don’t you know that the subscription model REALLY is all about chasing the carrot on a stick, just so players keep playing months after months after months…? Which equals to $$$ for the developers.

The game is fine as it is.

Aelaren.3784:

This may seem fair to be people that Legendaries should only be carried by the most dedicated and I agree as they are only skins.

Not the case anymore. I was totally indifferent towards legendaries, until Arena announced the new ascended tier, and that only legendary weapons will stay “best in slot” when ascended weapons finally appear. So now a legendary is not a skin but a top-tier best in slot weapon. So..

Whilst what you are saying is technically true, what is the point of legendary at the moment over than showing off ?

All the current content can be cleared with rares.

The only big thing about ascended at this precis moment is the agony resistance, and not the actual stats that it comes with. As long as anet keeps its game the way it currently is, legendary and ascended will have very little impact on the game.

Of course if they completely change their mind and switch from marginal vertical progression to FULL ON GRIND TRAIN ALL JUMP ABOARD!!!! … then we all have been kittened up the kitten

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

Aelaren.3784:

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

If you start playing a subscription fee game, then you should know that the grind train stops at every station and it’s the only way to get around. You will only encourage more grind. I obviously can’t back up my statement with any hard evidence (since I can’t predict the future duh) but from experience of playing sub fees games, better get ready to go choo choo because we’re all going to be chasing the dragon…

If your worry is the developers not taking notice of your gems purchase (AKA the GW2 equivalent of a subscription fee)…trust me they do, any semi-decent company keeps a really good eye on their finance, how much is coming in and how much is coming out. If players stop purchasing gems, the devs will notice. Just saying.

I consider myself an in-betweener, but you seem to be under the misconception that you have to have a legendary “right now”. I am quite a fair way off mine, but that doesn’t stop me working towards it. It’s a goal. There’s no race. You want the skin, you work towards it. It is NOT out of bounds of a casual player, it will just take time.

Well here we have non-sub game and it choo chooed much harder than any sub game I have ever played. And I cant even express my disgust in any meaningfull way as I had already paid for it.

Aelaren.3784:

Well here we have non-sub game and it choo chooed much harder than any sub game I have ever played.

Either way you have lost your objectivity, or it is your first MMO.

Neither, unfortunately.

I myself consider myself casual, I just don’t have the time to spend more then an hour or two a day. Sometimes on the weekend I can get 3 – 4 hours in, but my overall play time is 10 – 15 hours a week. The issues in MMO’s is always the Haves (hardcore) vs the Have nots (casual). I certainly believe that the casual players deserve to have the top tier armor and weapons. Developers need to give those players alternate paths to them which GW2 folks seem to be doing.

Hardcore players who put time in reap the rewards, that is just a fact of life, they do get the advantages in PvP or WvWvW because they have access to better stuff then us casual players have. But GW2 has much to offer even at the casual levels and that we can get there eventually should be good enough.

I completely disagree with all of Groovy’s philosophy’s that he has posted in this thread. Most of what he said is really just opinion actually. I’m guessing he played WoW while the true Guild Wars fans and supporters were playing Guild Wars.

I would like to say that if you’re into vertical progression Guild Wars never was the MMO for you. All the crying and complaining from players hoping for WoW 2 and not Guild Wars 2 have caused the developers to turn this game into an absolute grind fest. The game is not fine as it is and some serious changes are needed.

@playboy

I never said it was anything more than my opinion, and I did state I didn not have anything to back it up other than my own personal experience.

I also said that most content can be cleared with rares and that hopefully ANet stick to these requirements. Hardly sounds like someone who is an advocate of aggresive vertical progression, wouldn’t you agree ?

And just to make this clear, I never played WoW. And certainly didn’t get GW2 for a WoW experience otherwise I probably would be playing WoW right now. But I’m guessing making baseless assumptions about other people falls under the opinion category so I’ll let it slide.

To describe GW2 as a grindfest is a joke. You can get the top gear doing a few dungeon runs everyday. 2 weeks to be fully geared in exotics if you take it quite seriously is not a grind. This does not involve any farming of mats OR gold.

If you want to play a game where you hit the final stage in 12 hours, I recommend you buy current single player games. I think you’ll find it’s players like you that do the “crying and complaining”. There is only one type of items that require severe grinding and they are completely optional. If you can’t be asked, then don’t do it. I can’t be asked hence I am not doing it either. Get over yourself.

The game has issues, sure, but it’s not unplayable like some make it out to be.

All adding a subscription would do is increase the self-entitlement of players. That, and making a lot of people angry.

Nice thoughts OP. Yes, after D3 and GW2 the sub model is really looking attractive. I think that juggling economy, monetization, and player reward in free to play just doesn’t work IRL as its currently being implemented by game companies. What I mean is literally that it doesn’t work; it doesn’t lead to a rewarding gaming experience for the player. That is my experience anyway and it’s good to see I’m not alone.

Aelaren.3784:

Well here we have non-sub game and it choo chooed much harder than any sub game I have ever played. And I cant even express my disgust in any meaningfull way as I had already paid for it.

I had been wondering why some people wanted GW2 to go sub. Are you saying that if GW2 was sub then you would have a meaningful way of expressing your disgust by dropping your sub? This is a sincere question, not an attempt to be inflammatory.

Groovy.6749:

Aelaren.3784:

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

If you start playing a subscription fee game, then you should know that the grind train stops at every station and it’s the only way to get around. You will only encourage more grind. I obviously can’t back up my statement with any hard evidence (since I can’t predict the future duh) but from experience of playing sub fees games, better get ready to go choo choo because we’re all going to be chasing the dragon…

If your worry is the developers not taking notice of your gems purchase (AKA the GW2 equivalent of a subscription fee)…trust me they do, any semi-decent company keeps a really good eye on their finance, how much is coming in and how much is coming out. If players stop purchasing gems, the devs will notice. Just saying.

There is no necessary correlation between how a game makes a profit and vertical progression. I assume that your assumption is that WoW is sub and has a gear grind therefore all games that are sub must necessarily have a gear grind. Two completely different concepts; no correlation. It’s perfectly possible to pay a subscription fee for a game like the one described in the GW2 manifesto.

Thing the problem here boils down to patience. Fiennes said it best, aquiring a legendary isnt a goal meant to be achieved in a month or two. Its a goal meant to be achieved in like a year’s time. The problem I see is people want to get it as fast as possible so they end up farming up 1 ingredient at a time. Thats whats feeling like a grind.

There is a reason why you essentially need everything to build a legendary and thats so you play everything. What do I mean? Variety! If you come to terms that this is a long term goal you can just throw farming out of the window, play what you enjoy playing and just keep the rewards that get towards your legendary. Today you feel like dungeons? cool we get some tokens we need. today you feel like DE? we definitely need karma, today you feel like exploring? well we need to discover the whole world for our legendary etc..? All you need to do is litterally play the game.

As for best in slot / Ascended gear I am with Groovy. Rares are enough to tackle any content. You certainly dont need Ascended armor unless you’re planning to dwell deep into FoTM.

My suggest is play what you enjoy and not to get the best reward. The game is perfeclty designed to allow just that.

I have to strongly disagree with the subscription idea though. I too consider myself in-between casual and hardcore. More then that I like to experiance different games. Always looking for new stories to enjoy. A subscription model makes that a nightmare to manage, its a lot easier with a buy to play model. Pay upfront a set amount and then pay for specfic stuff when you want to like costumes skins and such on your own terms. Thats a lot friendlier especially to non hardcore players.

The mistake OP is doing is s/he feels he need to get the same rewards in the same timeframe as hardcore players. Well that would by definition require a hardcore play style. Subscription or no subscription will not change that. In fact I think OP is wrong in thinking that Gw2 is purposely making the situation bad so people spend money, In fact I beleive Gw2 makes it a lot less of an issue simply by making any gear unneeded. Like Groovy said a Rare armor set is enough to play anything and it takes a day or two to craft / buy one!

Alloy.2839:

Aelaren.3784:

Well here we have non-sub game and it choo chooed much harder than any sub game I have ever played. And I cant even express my disgust in any meaningfull way as I had already paid for it.

I had been wondering why some people wanted GW2 to go sub. Are you saying that if GW2 was sub then you would have a meaningful way of expressing your disgust by dropping your sub? This is a sincere question, not an attempt to be inflammatory.

I’d like to suggest that there is a reason beyond the leverage of simply being a paying customer. In playing games like D3 and GW2 I’ve felt a coercive funnel to the real money auction house or the gem store. And, for me, this has to do with the relative absence of reward for play. I understand that if you play 12-14 hours a day in either game you can acquire game capital. But a lot of people don’t want to work at a game, they’d rather play the game and experience a sense of reward simply for playing the game. That sense of reward is largely absent in the ‘free’ games I’ve played and largely present in the subscription games I’ve played. I’m simply asking whether there is a funnel to the gem store because the game is ‘free’ and whether it would be more rewarding, in-game, if game companies could make their profit from subscriptions rather than the current monetization schemes of ‘free’.

Raine.1394:

Groovy.6749:

Aelaren.3784:

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

If you start playing a subscription fee game, then you should know that the grind train stops at every station and it’s the only way to get around. You will only encourage more grind. I obviously can’t back up my statement with any hard evidence (since I can’t predict the future duh) but from experience of playing sub fees games, better get ready to go choo choo because we’re all going to be chasing the dragon…

If your worry is the developers not taking notice of your gems purchase (AKA the GW2 equivalent of a subscription fee)…trust me they do, any semi-decent company keeps a really good eye on their finance, how much is coming in and how much is coming out. If players stop purchasing gems, the devs will notice. Just saying.

There is no necessary correlation between how a game makes a profit and vertical progression. I assume that your assumption is that WoW is sub and has a gear grind therefore all games that are sub must necessarily have a gear grind. Two completely different concepts; no correlation. It’s perfectly possible to pay a subscription fee for a game like the one described in the GW2 manifesto.

Well that is oversimplying my assumption lol

As I said I never played WoW, but I know they are renowned for their tread mill. Now pretty much all the MMOs I played involved grinding. EQ, EQ2, SWG, RYZOM, SWTOR all had gear grind elements to it, and yes it is the general assumption that the carrot on a stick helps players to keep playing month after month, hence putting money in the pocket of the developers.
Which is why GW2 is so different (in a very good way) by opting for Buy to Play along a cash store to support the microtransaction model.

But yes, I made an assumption. And you are right, it is perfectly possible for a game to be Pay to Play, and still not involve grinding.
But let’s be fair here, many developers have chosen to for the grind factor because it’s been proven to work, and it’s a less risky model to support the game they develop if it is known to be effective.

The correlation between grind and subscription has been well cemented into the genre, that is called popular culture. And it’s a factor that cannot be ignored when it comes to designing/promoting your new game. GW1 and GW2 chose to go against that model by replacing stat grind for aesthetic grind. From this, I would go as far as to say ANet shares my assumption as well.

The purpose of the thread was to discuss how various types of players get to experience the content. At some point in the discussion, the way the game is financed was raised and how it could affect the general direction the game could go in.

I voiced my opinion based on my own experience that a lot of MMOs who go for the subscription model tend to involve grind, hence to combat said grind it doesn’t sound like a good outcome for the game AND the players who dislike grind.

I’m sure there are games that are P2P and do not involve grinding, but they are dwarved by the amount of those who do the exact opposite.

joneb.5679:

The Fractals to me are a joke as I don’t see any benefit doing them more than a few times as I get the impression its the same content except becoming more difficult and I cant be bothered with this “lfm fractal lvl so and so” so these things combined are again a turn off. I find it ironic in a game that has been designed to be level friendly so players can down level or up level in Fractals you must be at the correct level to progress meaning many players are not interested in doing lower level fractals and it can be a pain getting a party.

Just wait until the population peaks, and ArenaNet realizes they made the same fatal design flaw that MMORPG developers make game after game after game after game….

ANet, what was your plan for when you run out of truely new people? For when that infinite flaw of players at every level of the game shows itself as something that’s never going to happen?

I may get a legendary one of these days. But why do I “HAVE” to have it right this very minute? I don’t. Maybe in a year when I have a ton of mats stored just by playing the game.

But I don’t feel any innate need to have them at all.

tonyl.5063:

joneb.5679:

The Fractals to me are a joke as I don’t see any benefit doing them more than a few times as I get the impression its the same content except becoming more difficult and I cant be bothered with this “lfm fractal lvl so and so” so these things combined are again a turn off. I find it ironic in a game that has been designed to be level friendly so players can down level or up level in Fractals you must be at the correct level to progress meaning many players are not interested in doing lower level fractals and it can be a pain getting a party.

Just wait until the population peaks, and ArenaNet realizes they made the same fatal design flaw that MMORPG developers make game after game after game after game….

ANet, what was your plan for when you run out of truely new people? For when that infinite flaw of players at every level of the game shows itself as something that’s never going to happen?

Yeah…like what happens to all those game no one plays anymore. And that have been around for years. Like WoW, EQ, EQ2, Aion, Runes of Magic, DDO, GW1. No one play those ol games anymore…right?

Galen Grey.4709:

My suggest is play what you enjoy and not to get the best reward. The game is perfectly designed to allow just that.

This. (fixed)

Practice, Patience, Purpose

Raf.1078:

tonyl.5063:

joneb.5679:

The Fractals to me are a joke as I don’t see any benefit doing them more than a few times as I get the impression its the same content except becoming more difficult and I cant be bothered with this “lfm fractal lvl so and so” so these things combined are again a turn off. I find it ironic in a game that has been designed to be level friendly so players can down level or up level in Fractals you must be at the correct level to progress meaning many players are not interested in doing lower level fractals and it can be a pain getting a party.

Just wait until the population peaks, and ArenaNet realizes they made the same fatal design flaw that MMORPG developers make game after game after game after game….

ANet, what was your plan for when you run out of truely new people? For when that infinite flaw of players at every level of the game shows itself as something that’s never going to happen?

Yeah…like what happens to all those game no one plays anymore. And that have been around for years. Like WoW, EQ, EQ2, Aion, Runes of Magic, DDO, GW1. No one play those ol games anymore…right?

OK, WoW just made the zones in the game cross server, EQ and EQ2 went F2P to try to attract more people leveling through the game, Both games ended up adding the cross-server dungeon tool to address the fact that people were never being given the opportunity to do this content because doing it requires people actually being online and leveling at the same level range as you, at the same exact time, and wanting to do it..

I will never understand why this is so difficult of a concept for you guys to understand, I have this same argument in every game I play. What good is a bunch of level 60/80/90 players to a level 40?

These games get designed around the idea that there’s going to be an infinite flow of people leveling through the content, and not being on their max level, and that the game will never stop making thousands of new sales every day. It’s just not the case.

ANet made the same mistake they all made… Content that requires a group, all in the same exact point of progression, it just doesn’t work. That’s why all the giants are focused so much on endgame, because that’s the only place in the game where you can safely assume enough people.

To put my whole point in perspective, group with me right now… I’m also not online, but still group with me. Once you realize how impossible that is, you’ll realize why group content needs to be designed around that even playing field, where it’s a point that almost all players are at at the same time, all the time… Players are finite, you DO run out of them at lower points in progression, the last 50 years of multiplayer RPG has been proving that to us over and over, yet nobody seems to grasp that it is unavoidble, that you can’t design group content without a forced replay to it, or else new players just get completely screwed.

You can’t fill a 4 person group with only 2 people. 2 < 4. No amount of fany-boying will ever change that fact. The only way to do it is to actually have 4 people…. But what do you do when there just isn’t 4 people?

I also identify as a mid-range player. Well beyond casual, but nowhere near hardcore.

I’m on FoTM 9, and have run enough AC exp to get the 500 tokens required for Twilight.

The minute I hit 80 I outfitted myself in full exotics via the TB. It really didn’t cost more than 15g. Don’t have 15g? Save up for it. I wanted the T3 cultural helm which is 20g, but I was broke. Took me 2 weeks of saving while playing regularly to get the money together. Now I want the T3 gloves for 12g, and the TA shoulders/shoes to finish my look.

Dungeon exotics are really the fastest way to get exotics IMO. You get 60 tokens per run, and with a good group you can do a run under an hour.

Nayru.3947:

Groovy.6749:

Aelaren.3784:

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

If you start playing a subscription fee game, then you should know that the grind train stops at every station and it’s the only way to get around. You will only encourage more grind. I obviously can’t back up my statement with any hard evidence (since I can’t predict the future duh) but from experience of playing sub fees games, better get ready to go choo choo because we’re all going to be chasing the dragon…

If your worry is the developers not taking notice of your gems purchase (AKA the GW2 equivalent of a subscription fee)…trust me they do, any semi-decent company keeps a really good eye on their finance, how much is coming in and how much is coming out. If players stop purchasing gems, the devs will notice. Just saying.

Do you even know what a dev is? The devs have nothing to do with gems. Just saying.

If I say publisher, does that make it better for you ?
Devs/Anet/NCsoft whatever….is that all you could retain from the discussion ? If your goal was to be condescending, you were. Congratu-well done !

Raine.1394:

Nice thoughts OP. Yes, after D3 and GW2 the sub model is really looking attractive. I think that juggling economy, monetization, and player reward in free to play just doesn’t work IRL as its currently being implemented by game companies. What I mean is literally that it doesn’t work; it doesn’t lead to a rewarding gaming experience for the player. That is my experience anyway and it’s good to see I’m not alone.

What doesn’t work on the other hand is monetizing by making a game sub only and adding a shop like every sub only game out there atm. The problem isn’t the current model of the game it’s the current cut off of every reward from inside the games mechanics. No reward = no players. Every game maker has done this and it has ALWAYS 100% of the time backfired including those titles who use subs as their main income.

Also, they didn’t do this to move people to the store, that myth was destroyed when JonPeters posted what they were doing, approx how long it would last, and that they like farmers as players.

Altho admittedly he didn’t post it on the GW2 forums so who could know about it right? I almost didn’t find it myself.

GW2 feels like a weird mix of things.

Horizontal progression at the very top (neat!) then vertical progression tacked on top of that after (err, what?). Which means if you want the best in slot stuff AND the look you want you now have to grind twice (for looks & for stats) instead of just getting the exotics you want and being done.

Nicely paced PvE & leveling designed in a pretty world that works well for casual players who aren’t in a hurry, but then FotM & Legendary grind/farm-fest packaged in there that require tons of hours to complete (odd combo, that).

WvW that is billed as “for the casual gamer” so you can hop in and play, yet it is overrun with this “24/7 required being online” and looks like a pure numbers game.

Take that recipe above, then roll it in batter and deep fry it in a bath of grindyness all around, because “getting something”/rewards from a task you do enjoy involves spending so many hours doing it, repeatedly, it can get ‘unfun’.

I’m in the middle of the casual—hardcore spectrum. Frankly, I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be doing anymore. I’d like to work towards accomplishing something, but everything seems designed to slow me down so much the game risks feeling like a second job.

Ascended & Legendary seem too grindy and time consuming for me as I do not buy games thinking they’ll be year+ commitments, I want my ‘fun’ and ‘reward’ and enjoyment sooner rather than super-duper-later. Yet, I’m not casual enough to still be sub-80th and seeing areas for the first time.

I’m used to this quandary though. I’m usually the one that shoots through content fast, having fun, and then hits that ‘endgame wall’ where things shift from enjoyable to pseudo-job.

GW2 just, currently, feels like they’re trying to cater to too many people. If you want to make a slower, casual game … do it. If you want to be a hardcore Korean grindfest, do that. Tell the other side of the audience “you can buy and try it, but don’t be upset if this game isn’t for you” and be done with it. Philosophically I feel the game audiences & the game systems required to please them are too far apart to “do it all” and please everyone.

@Dominae

You’re absoluitely right, it just I dont see why it has to be a problem? Why cant Players just choose to do what they like?

The reason I am against vertical progression is because I love exploration and story, I essentially want to be side tracked without feeling I am being penalized. Gw2 does just that. You dont need to have the best equipment to play the game. When I PvE I have a rare armor set gear entirely towards MF (MF for two reasons, 1 I feel already too powerful as is, I want challenge and havning MF instead of stats that complement my build gives me just that 2. I get a few better rewards) With such a set thats really easy to aquire I am free to play anything I wish. That me though who likes exploration and story telling. Some people like different things like progression. For them there are more demanding gear to aquire that can be upgraded just ever so slightly to give you the best stats possible. If I were into vertical progression I would be playing that content and trying to conquer all the difficulty levels of FoTM. Two oppossing play styles both possible in the same game.

Is my horizontal progression hindered in any way by the vertical progression? Nope
Is the vertical progression hindered in any way by the horizontal progression? Not hindered no, but you could argue its not that advantages after all you dont really need the gear but then again you shouldnt be doing this because you need the gear as such more like because thats what you like doing.

I think the main problem is people are expecting the game to tell them what to do. Legendaries are hard to get, they’re positioned as the ultimate goal but that doesnt mean the game wants you to just work towards them, they’re meant to be something for longer term players to achieve. If you dont like to work towards long term goals than thats not something you should be pursiuting in my opinion. This isnt a game that tells you what to do, this is a game that provides like you said a wide variety of things to do, something for nearly every play style and leaves it entirely up to you to decide what you want to pursuit.

Gw2 is just about choices, its up to the player to make those choices. Trouble is, seems to me some people are just unable to choose what they want over the best item. Thats where the problem lies imho.

Maybe they don’t want anything over the Legendary. We should be allowed to do what we want. Unfortunately, we’re limited to a specific way of playing in PVE.

Some people enjoy focusing on a goal and working toward it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Gw2 is just about choices, its up to the player to make those choices. Trouble is, seems to me some people are just unable to choose what they want over the best item. Thats where the problem lies imho.

That is a nugget of wisdom right there. We MMO players have had “seek teh bezt l33t til u dai lulz” mentality hammered in our brains for years.

Now playing a game that in no way reinforces that belief, or even encourages it is going to leave a lot of people confused about what to achieve at max level.

It takes a while for some MMO veterans to come to terms with not having to be “the best”, and instead just craft the character that they truly love/want to play and to actually just enjoy the content without feeling the pressure of gear or stats.
Legendary still represents that holy grail in the eyes of many, that “last carrot to get” in order to become the champion of champions, if you like.

I bought GW2 because I was sick of the general grind that comes with MMOs. So when I started to read about the legendary and its requirements, then I pretty much decided on the spot not to bother, to simply enjoy the game and see where I’ll be at in terms of “drops farmed” a year or two down the line.

There are plenty of skins, and possible combinations of weapons/races/classes/genders/armors…to make a truly unique character who looks and feels epic. You don’t need a legendary on your back to validate all this.

How about a new group:

The “ex-hardcore”:

People who were hardcore, but who are now older and have become more casual, but still think of games with a hardcore mindset and years of previous experience.

xiv.7136:

How about a new group:

The “ex-hardcore”:

People who were hardcore, but who are now older and have become more casual, but still think of games with a hardcore mindset and years of previous experience.

This sums me up perfectly come to think of it! College years = hardcore because, well, its college so I had plenty of time to play. Post college = work for a living, gf, dog, house to upkeep, so not enough time. But when I do play, I play as hardcore as I can. Unfortunately there’s a limit to how hardcore I can get based on time available.

Nayru.3947:

Dog? Dog = Not enough time to play?

Well you have to feed it twice a day…thats 20 minutes. You have to let it out side every few hours that’s 10 minutes. You have to walk it, take it to the vet, clean it, pet it, snuggle it, brush it’s teeth. That add ups to almost 24 hours

Groovy.6749:

Nayru.3947:

Groovy.6749:

Aelaren.3784:

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

If you start playing a subscription fee game, then you should know that the grind train stops at every station and it’s the only way to get around. You will only encourage more grind. I obviously can’t back up my statement with any hard evidence (since I can’t predict the future duh) but from experience of playing sub fees games, better get ready to go choo choo because we’re all going to be chasing the dragon…

If your worry is the developers not taking notice of your gems purchase (AKA the GW2 equivalent of a subscription fee)…trust me they do, any semi-decent company keeps a really good eye on their finance, how much is coming in and how much is coming out. If players stop purchasing gems, the devs will notice. Just saying.

Do you even know what a dev is? The devs have nothing to do with gems. Just saying.

If I say publisher, does that make it better for you ?
Devs/Anet/NCsoft whatever….is that all you could retain from the discussion ? If your goal was to be condescending, you were. Congratu-well done !

Did you know this was an MMO? MMOs are require some “grind” or “progression” it’s what an MMO is…if you want no grind the best thing to do is to get a xbox/ps3/wii there is no grind with those.

Developers make the game btw

Galen Grey.4709:

Gw2 is just about choices, its up to the player to make those choices. Trouble is, seems to me some people are just unable to choose what they want over the best item. Thats where the problem lies imho.

Your post makes some solid points.

The game makers set what is possible, they build the theme park and let us loose in it. Players can choose what they want to do, but they’re obviously limited.

I chose to PvE & WvW to 80 (twice so far). I chose to run a few dungeons to experience them. I did my personal story once up to the last piece (can’t get a group to finish it, weirdly). I’ve done more FotM than I want to do …

Now what? I guess, basically, there is nothing I’d “choose” to do anymore. I want to play, and enjoy the game, and stick around … but I’m left with limited options: FotM more (because 20 trips isn’t enough for an Ascended Ring I guess – though only 10 more and I can finally buy one with the new tokens!) and/or farm for Legendary (oh no, please no).

I’m just listless in there now … cut my play time back from a few nights a week to 1 Tixx run for the event & 45 minutes of /lfg spamming in LA hoping to get a FotM run together, followed by logging off annoyed.

xiv.7136:

How about a new group:

The “ex-hardcore”:

People who were hardcore, but who are now older and have become more casual, but still think of games with a hardcore mindset and years of previous experience.

Bingo. I think this is the group I’d best fit into (though I never made it to that “elite” level of “hardcore” where people did the top raids in other games – because frankly, the thought of repeating the same raid until you saw it in your sleep makes me cringe).

When I play a new game, I’m having fun my way. I’m experiencing new content and enjoying myself. ‘Casual’ friends don’t always like playing with me because I’m all “go go go” and I play too fast/‘hard’ for them. I’m planning my build while not playing, and when in game I’m running from quest to quest doing content while they’re tinkering with organizing their inventory or listening to two NPCs chat with each other.

Then, I run out of content I can play at my pace … I’m forced into this artificial bottleneck of RNG, DR, or just grind-grind-grind. I like fast-paced chaos basically (lol), and I’m forced to slow down painfully. I’m told by the game (and therefore the devs) “you can’t get your reward now, you have to do this one task log off for 24 hours and get a chance to go it again.” Bah, endgame. lol

Casual friends say “well you play too hardcore” & hardcore friends say “you need to play more hardcore”.

Groovy.6749:

Aelaren.3784:

subscription fees : Seriously?

Absolutely. You know what you are playing for. If the game turn to the direction you don`t like anymore, you stop paying. That actually makes developers take a notice of the ingame problems they can easily ignore in the game that require only initial payment. That is why I personally think monthly sub would be better for GW2.

If you start playing a subscription fee game, then you should know that the grind train stops at every station and it’s the only way to get around. You will only encourage more grind. I obviously can’t back up my statement with any hard evidence (since I can’t predict the future duh) but from experience of playing sub fees games, better get ready to go choo choo because we’re all going to be chasing the dragon…

If your worry is the developers not taking notice of your gems purchase (AKA the GW2 equivalent of a subscription fee)…trust me they do, any semi-decent company keeps a really good eye on their finance, how much is coming in and how much is coming out. If players stop purchasing gems, the devs will notice. Just saying.

GW2 is no different then playing a subscription based game. To get best in slot raids/fractals, all games have their pvp, to craft in both games you have to farm materials. Difference is the amount you pay subscription you pay one flat monthly fee where as GW2 all depends on how much you decide you will pay 2 win.

Had a friend biggest complaint she had ….She payed more to play GW2 then a subscription based game. Only one problem she hates dungeon running and likes stuff out in the world. A week after she found magic find gear they nerf the drop rates out in the world to add to that they start decreasing the nodes. She had one area she said had 5 nodes the last time she was on there was 1 node left there. She decided the game was unrewarding for her playstyle and moved on to a subscription based game and is happy once again. Its all a matter of choice and what you find rewarding if you dont find it rewarding move on to something you do find rewarding …… keep in mind this game is free to play you can always come back to see if they have made it more rewarding for you, other subscription based games you would have to renew your subscription, think about it thats why you see a spike in players during GW2 events.

I’m a little curious to why people are so hung up on the ascended/legend gear. Even if you have all that your stats at a couple %’s at most above another player.

Most fights in PvP arn’t won by 1 or 2 percent; you either kick the other guys kitten or you don’t. If your fights are routinely coming down to 1 or 2% you’re fighting your evil twin, or the top tier metagame is made up entirely of clone builds and strategies.

With that settled ask yourself this:
Do I feel the legend/ascended item i so badly want worth the grind?

If your answer is yes, then what’s the big deal. You feel the payoff is worth the effort and it’s a labour of love. If the answer is no, then why the hell are you making yourself miserable trying, if you’re making yourself unhappy over an item in a video game you need to take a big step back and reassess what you’re doing with your time.

(Incidentally I’m not sure where I sit on the game scale. I only play a couple hours a day yet have full T3 gear, exotics and ~200g)

I guess I’m what some would consider hardcore, since even during school I play about 4 or more hours a day. (No, it didn’t hurt my grades lmao.) However, it’s not like I’m rolling in money or something. I have one 80 that had about 20g on him by that time, all of which I spent on exotics. I now have about 12g on him, which I’ll probably use to get exotic upgrades/accessories, though it won’t be enough to buy everything. I’ve done some farming in Straits, which is nice but hardly ever happens on my server. I do TA a lot, but it’s hard to find a group for it most of the time, and I really dislike the dungeons in this game (only doing it for the armor set.) I’d never even consider trying for a legendary. I just don’t care enough and I feel like I grind hard enough as it is. Besides, I have seven alts to level and gear…

joneb.5679:

What makes me most sad is that I want to be able to play an MMO where, character, story and quest is king and everyone is questing together. However it seems far too many people only want to solo quest mostly and do the diversions to death.

Totally agree i wish for that too, not grind my life away in dungeons with no rewards.

Dungeon grinding is lame.

Please note if you read my original post I wrote this "This may seem fair to be people that Legendaries should only be carried by the most dedicated and I agree as they are only skins. " I am agreeing Legendaries should be only for the most dedicated player.

My trouble is with exotics. For the builds I am making for my toons I want exotic level 80 Berserker gear for one and Rampager for the other for two very different type of dps builds based on crit and condition but Berserker costs a fortune too. I will get to it eventually but I find the more gold I get the further the costs have gone up by that time.

I would happily pay to buy gold but the gold-diamonds-cash ratio is awful and additionally items like the Black Lion Chests from the store are crazy prices. Even Turbines DDO shop is so much better value for in store items. I don’t mind the ftp/sub game with a store.

There is another game (NOT WOW)I may go back to of which the revenue model of ftp/sub and shop seemed to work best of any mmo I have played so far. I dropped the sub because it became repetitive as at the time i was quite an intense player and it wasn’t as solo friendly as GW2 but time has seen many new updates so it could become time to try it again if I didn’t rage delete all my toons. lol. I’m looking forward to Neverwinter Nights too.

GW2 will always be here for me but surely Anet would rather try to keep as much of an ongoing paying player base as possible and maybe they need to think of the real money cost for shop items and transferring to gold.

TommyProvolone.3715:

All adding a subscription would do is increase the self-entitlement of players. That, and making a lot of people angry.

Oh it’s too late to add a sub now. No way I’d pay it unless they made a whole lot of changes, starting of course with an end to gems for gold and all cash shop boosts of any kind.

As for self-entitlement, I’m seeing more of it on the end of corporations and organizations lately, including MMO developers than I have ever seen from customers and communities.

The stubborn silence on certain issues brought up on this forum really infuriates me. Although I do give them props for addressing Ascended gear issues to some extent, there are things they aren’t addressing.

And speaking of, where the heck are the alternate ways to get Ascended gear? It’s been over a month now, and everyone who doesn’t do dungeons is behind in stats now. Will they compensate those who will seek Ascended through other means by making it less grindy to obtain them? I doubt it.

Thanks to ANet balancing lodestone drops terribly, anything which requires lodestones in large quantities (e.g. EVERY SKIN WORTH HAVING) actually costs more than half the precursors in the game.

Most of this game is fine, but there are two major failings which are quickly snowballing and need ANet’s attention:

1 – fractals being the only source of ascended and “draining the world”

2 – DR combined with massive inflation causing the most extreme wealth gap in terms of actual ability to attain desired gear that i’ve ever seen in any game, period.