Guild Wars 2

Hi there,

I was wondering, is there any particular reason why people often look for : Guardian, Warriors and Mesmers (for dungeonruns, that is)

I have a Mesmer myself, I believe it’s because of AOE-Shatter and Timewarp (and even that’s not necessary in any way, just makes things a little faster)

But what about the Warrior and the Guardian? I mean, yeah, they got heavy armor…but that’s just like +200 Thoughness? Come on, it’s not THAT great, and works only for direct damage, not for condition damage.

I know that the guardian got some very low base-HP, and the warrior…don’t really know anything about warriors, to be honest.

They can’t be SO much better than, lets say, my engineer with a bombkit-build or whatever. Or maybe I just don’t know about Warriors and Guardians doing 500% more damage than an engineer or any class for that matter.

Is it because of the Guardian-Boons? Really, I have no idea, please enlighten me.

Heavy Armor is a huge boost which can go up to 20% damage reduction compared to light classes. It’s only normal for heavy armor to give much more protection. For instance my mesmer has 29% damage reduction from toughness (yes I run a melee mesmer), my ranger has 39% dr and a warrior with the same type of gear will have ~50%.

Warriors do deal insane amounts of damage while being tanky. Their mechanics are also very straightforward so they are considered easy to master. They got godly PvE builds overall.

I can’t comment about Guardians, people usually want them for the boons. Most of the players I run into in dungeons claim their boons can keep the whole party “Safe.”

AmBoSS.7129:

They can’t be SO much better than, lets say, my engineer with a bombkit-build or whatever.

They are. Just as Guardian and Warrior are currently at the top of class balance, the Engineer is at the very bottom.

Warriors offer great dps coupled with good survivability. There’s really no other class that can compare to them with sustained dps (thieves can compare with burst, but sustained damage is not their strong spot). Guardians can have great damage, but they really shine at support and survivability. Guardian support bunker builds can survive a lot while still being able to deal noticeable damage and providing whole group with boons.
Engineers don’t even come close.

Astralporing.1957:

AmBoSS.7129:

They can’t be SO much better than, lets say, my engineer with a bombkit-build or whatever.

They are. Just as Guardian and Warrior are currently at the top of class balance, the Engineer is at the very bottom.

Warriors offer great dps coupled with good survivability. There’s really no other class that can compare to them with sustained dps (thieves can compare with burst, but sustained damage is not their strong spot). Guardians can have great damage, but they really shine at support and survivability. Guardian support bunker builds can survive a lot while still being able to deal noticeable damage and providing whole group with boons.
Engineers don’t even come close.

Now the question is…are you just saying that or is that really true? Because I believe most of the people just think that warriors and guardians are this strong and whatever. I mean, I am no theorycrafter or anything like that, but is there any proof to that? Or is it just:" Man, this guy got some shiny armor and a greatsword, swinging it like crazy, so those warriors must be really strong"- kind of thing?

AmBoSS.7129:

Now the question is…are you just saying that or is that really true? Because I believe most of the people just think that warriors and guardians are this strong and whatever. I mean, I am no theorycrafter or anything like that, but is there any proof to that? Or is it just:" Man, this guy got some shiny armor and a greatsword, swinging it like crazy, so those warriors must be really strong"- kind of thing?

It’s true for guardians for obvious reasons. (Aegis, reflects, protection, regen, etc)

Anyone with decent experience in dungeons knows guardians are key to teams.

Warriors aren’t known for their survivability but really their dps. (when geared appropriately)

Mesmer is useful for timewarp, reflects, portals, and their dps as well.

No other classes come close to that level of utility. (Maybe thieves for team stealth effects could be useful, but that’s really situational.)

Wayfinder.8452:

Heavy Armor is a huge boost which can go up to 20% damage reduction compared to light classes. It’s only normal for heavy armor to give much more protection.

It’s not a huge boost, it’s only roughly 7% less direct damage than a medium armor wearer and 14% less than light armor. That is when you have no +toughness at all. As characters gain toughness (through traits/equip) the difference gets smaller.

Guardians and Warriors are wanted because they’re probably the 2 best classes for dungeons both for legitimate reasons ( boons, dps, sustainability, projectile protection just to name a few ) and non-legitimate ones ( omg heavy armor so good ). Other classes, while not as strong, have their unique perks too and any skillful player is welcomed in any party that’s not speed running CoF/doing fractal 40+/full of stupidity.

Better damage – check
Better survivability – check
Better group support – check
Better utility – check
Better class mechanics – check

I really wonder why the other classes exist sometimes.

It’s depressing.

I can’t remember the last time I ran a dungeon with a warrior. I think they’re highly overrated because I don’t really care if I get a dungeon done 5 minutes faster or not.

I also don’t pug, because people like to “run” dungeons, where as I just enjoy playing the game. I’m not in any rush.

So I play with guildies. No one gets excluded in my guild, no matter the profession. And though I main a mesmer and there are several guardians in the guild (and several other mesmers), we regularly run dungeons with a ranger, a necro, and a couple of engineers, oh and and an ele. Overall we do quite well.

Naturally we know each other and play with each other very well, which is the point. If you’re just trying to build a team of strangers who have no experience together, you want to fill roles. If you play with people you play with all the time, you naturally fit yourself into roles that work…they won’t necessarily be the standard roles though.

AmBoSS.7129:

Now the question is…are you just saying that or is that really true? Because I believe most of the people just think that warriors and guardians are this strong and whatever

lol… havent you played the classes? Both are the top dogs indeed in PvE. Engineer, Thief and ranger are lowest of the low. Not that they are bad, but because they serve no purpose. They will also have trouble matching good pve and wvw builds.

Warriors in particular can pretty much build however they want. I have a 28K HP/2200 toughness axe/shield Warrior that is still appreciated in dungeons when the silly glasscannons get roflstomped. Dont even have to go with a lol100blades build.

Dawdler.8521:

AmBoSS.7129:

Now the question is…are you just saying that or is that really true? Because I believe most of the people just think that warriors and guardians are this strong and whatever

lol… havent you played the classes? Both are the top dogs indeed in PvE. Engineer, Thief and ranger are lowest of the low. Not that they are bad, but because they serve no purpose. They will also have trouble matching good pve and wvw builds.

Warriors in particular can pretty much build however they want. I have a 28K HP/2200 toughness axe/shield Warrior that is still appreciated in dungeons when the silly glasscannons get roflstomped. Dont even have to go with a lol100blades build.

No, I have not played a Warrior or Guardian yet, not really into them.
Is the difference in damage output so obvious? I will take my engineer for example again, I do a lot of damage with my granade-build or bombbuild (at least I think so) whilst healing my party members to some degree (bombkit).

Are there any numbers? Like, the warrior does 5%, 50%, 999% more damage? Would be kinda unfair then, if the warrior and guardians are that much more powerful…which I doubt, that would be really bad design then.

The difference in damage output (and survivability) is definitely there. Don’t know the exact percent, check in the class-specific forums maybe?

Anecdotal evidence: my lvl 14 war dies less than a tenth of the time my lvl 14th ele did, and kills mobs much faster. It irritates me, because I love playing the ele and find war kind of boring, but the mechanical advantages are obvious. Haven’t tried guardian yet.

Anybody who dismisses what any profession can do because their numbers aren’t as big as a Warrior’s is a fool. Argument over.

GoZero.9708:

Anybody who dismisses what any profession can do because their numbers aren’t as big as a Warrior’s is a fool. Argument over.

I basically agree, but having a huge and noticeable gap between some professions is a problem that needs to be fixed. When it’s obvious that some classes are worse at dungeons than other classes, I can understand people not wanting to bring the obviously worse classes along. I think it’s kind of silly, but I can see the reasoning. The solution is to balance the classes better, and eventually we’ll probably get there.

Warriors and Guardians are easier to play for people who don’t want to take the hundreds of hours it can take to learn a class.

(Engineer, Ranger, and maybe Necro also have some bugs that make them a little tougher, but hardly useless.)

I have found all classes in dungeon runs and other pve environments to be useful. Everyone brings something unique to the table. Personally I always prefer a competent player regardless of class. I think there is too much weight on min / maxing and not enough discussion surrounding player skill.

Instances are different from the rest of the game since they feature mobs with very high health and outputting severe spike damage. When it comes down to it, outputting the most dps without dying too much is more important since you will fail if you cannot take down mobs fast enough so that the damage overwhelms you anyways. Thus the belief that glass cannon is the only way to play. (If you never leave CoF)

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others. Not that other classes aren’t capable of succeeding, but some people only care about efficiency and would rather not slow down their runs by 3 minutes by letting the peasant classes drag them down. Granted 3 minutes per run over 100 runs is 5 hours! And I guess people have limited time.

In the meantime, the game’s drops outside of instances in the overworld suck so badly, with dynamic events frequently only giving a token reward, that everyone flocks to dungeons, fractals, and the dragon chests. Is it no surprise that popular styles of play become so narrow?

This goes beyond any class being too weak, or armor classification. It’s that certain styles of play are heavily favored at the expense of others. Then again this isn’t an easy problem to deal with. As some would say, dodging is their defense thus they can spec all out damage. Making enemies undodgable wouldn’t be very fun.

ArchonWing.9480:

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others.

That’s what bothers me. People say and claim that, but is it really the truth? I mean, there are always those guys doing the math (and kitten I am not one of them)…there got to be some numbers regarding this.

Because I feel people just imagine them being the best damage dealers, because yeah…he is a warrior, kitten armor and sword, got to be stong…and the guardian, lot of blue protection thing, a kitten armor and a hammer, must be strong…and he is called Guardian, he definitly guards us….

Then they look at an engineer….lol, he got funny toys….or the necro…ugly minions, must suck….or a ranger, a cute pet, but please, go away…..

Neb.4170:

I really wonder why the other classes exist sometimes.

I’m wondering why this game even exists.

Edit: I recalled why, for money.

Yes, it is true. Watch this and you will get your answer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXMhxiLUEs&list=PLzYy8FVzP3HZcddc7Zc8t8Q3PaztcOPiM&index=3

TL;DW: Team of 3 warriors 1 mesmer 1 guardian clear arah path 3 in 15 mins. It’s the combination of damage, utility, and survival from this composition which makes such a fast run possible. They are certainly very skilled and coordinated players but I am not sure a team composed of say, a thief, 2 rangers, a necro, and an engineer, even with the best coordination and skill, would be able to get that close to their time.

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others.

That’s what bothers me. People say and claim that, but is it really the truth? I mean, there are always those guys doing the math (and kitten I am not one of them)…there got to be some numbers regarding this.

Because I feel people just imagine them being the best damage dealers, because yeah…he is a warrior, kitten armor and sword, got to be stong…and the guardian, lot of blue protection thing, a kitten armor and a hammer, must be strong…and he is called Guardian, he definitly guards us….

Then they look at an engineer….lol, he got funny toys….or the necro…ugly minions, must suck….or a ranger, a cute pet, but please, go away…..

Lol, I sincerely doubt anyone has ever approached the matter like that. It’s just that through experience some things work better than others. You can just ask any decently geared warrior to show off their GS auto attack and 2 skill and see if you can match.

I doubt anyone’s going to bother running any spreadsheets. But don’t listen to me, here’s a more credible source that I dug up: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/81147-warrior-vs-engi-dps-video/#entry2174103

TheKillerAngel.3596:

Yes, it is true. Watch this and you will get your answer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGXMhxiLUEs&list=PLzYy8FVzP3HZcddc7Zc8t8Q3PaztcOPiM&index=3

TL;DW: Team of 3 warriors 1 mesmer 1 guardian clear arah path 3 in 15 mins. It’s the combination of damage, utility, and survival from this composition which makes such a fast run possible. They are certainly very skilled and coordinated players but I am not sure a team composed of say, a thief, 2 rangers, a necro, and an engineer, even with the best coordination and skill, would be able to get that close to their time.

You bet they are skilled guys. You are not sure the above group would manage to do that in time? Well, I don’t know either. I am amazed though, that there is no, I don’t know, theorycrafting-math-thing available.

It feels more like:

Guild Wars 2 launch
Warrior and Guardians are a very commonly played profession
Both claim to be ultra useful and even necessary in dungeons
Everyone just believes it?

Now you are gonna say => I/my friend/whoever switched from Warrior to Necro and he was doing worse.

Maybe (just speculation here)…maybe, you/this guy/whoever is just not good playing a Necro or any other profession? Maybe Warrior is easy to play? (honestly, I don’t know).

Kinda strange thing

ArchonWing.9480:

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others.

That’s what bothers me. People say and claim that, but is it really the truth? I mean, there are always those guys doing the math (and kitten I am not one of them)…there got to be some numbers regarding this.

Because I feel people just imagine them being the best damage dealers, because yeah…he is a warrior, kitten armor and sword, got to be stong…and the guardian, lot of blue protection thing, a kitten armor and a hammer, must be strong…and he is called Guardian, he definitly guards us….

Then they look at an engineer….lol, he got funny toys….or the necro…ugly minions, must suck….or a ranger, a cute pet, but please, go away…..

Lol, I sincerely doubt anyone has ever approached the matter like that. It’s just that through experience some things work better than others. You can just ask any decently geared warrior to show off their GS auto attack and 2 skill and see if you can match.

I doubt anyone’s going to bother running any spreadsheets. But don’t listen to me, here’s a more credible source that I dug up: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/81147-warrior-vs-engi-dps-video/#entry2174103

That’s not really saying anything. I mean, maybe the engineer was pretty bad, or could have used other skills? Maybe swiftness? There are just no real facts….people just CLAIM that the warrior or even guardian is this strong and useful…the community can’t be so simple-minded

What classes have you played to 80 and taken to multiple dungeons?

It’s not being simple minded, it’s fact: Warriors have one of the best dps outputs with the smallest amount of work put in. There may be some crazy niche thief builds that could possibly beat war dps by a marginal amount (not even sure about that), but you would no doubt have to work 10 times as hard as opposed to just hitting frenzy and 100b while laying down some banners. And with how long you have to grind dungeons, do you really want to be exerting so much effort all the time (and risking messing up and dying)?

People, It’s nothing to take personally if you play a different class.

Heavily armored professions have a higher margin of error when it comes to making mistakes in dungeons. In the current game, a poorly timed dodge or a mental error can result in an instant down for a light armored class. More often than not, heavily armored classes will get away with this.

What this means is that in the scope of picking up strangers for dungeon runs, there’s a higher chance that the heavily armored classes will spend less time on their backs. There really is no such thing as a perfect player. Even if I considered myself skilled at a given class, I still make mental errors, and these simply are more costly for lightly armored classes.

Maybe you’ve never missed flicking on that arcane shield in the nick of time. That’s wonderful. Personally, I don’t trust my own reflexes in this game as much as I did in all my years of playing DOTA. Attacks are less consistent, the mechanics with terrain are in themselves glitchy (Lightning Flash varies in its opinion of what constitutes ‘pathable’ terrain), red circles are not universally applied, there’s a good amount of lag…

I really can see where people are coming from when they choose to take the heavies.
Maximizing margin of error is a safe play in the game as it stands.

Do I agree with it? No.

The current classes I have completely geared 80s of are Warrior, Guard, Elementalist, Mesmer. I find the elementalist to be the most powerful and versatile class, and consider it to be my ‘main’.

Do I understand where people are coming from, though?
Absolutely.

If my party would rather have me as a Warrior or Guard, I’m happy to oblige.

Fist of all: I have a Engineer, a Mesmer and a Ranger on Level 80, and I ran dungeons with all of them.

Jabberwock.9014:

It’s not being simple minded, it’s fact: Warriors have one of the best dps outputs with the smallest amount of work put in. There may be some crazy niche thief builds that could possibly beat war dps by a marginal amount (not even sure about that), but you would no doubt have to work 10 times as hard as opposed to just hitting frenzy and 100b while laying down some banners. And with how long you have to grind dungeons, do you really want to be exerting so much effort all the time (and risking messing up and dying)?

Hmm, it’s again a “fact”….because you/whoever said so? But ok, lets asume the Warrior does very good damage while literally doing less then other professions. It still does not make him stronger, because the other professions can do the same damage (while maybe putting more effort behind it).

I am now really interested. Is it really a fact? Or do people misunderstood “better” for “easy to use dps-mechanic”? So the Warrior and Guardian aren’t really stronger, but easier to play?

I mean, I believe the Engineer to be pretty easy to play, so the Warrior or Guardian can’t be this much easier.

And please, I don’t have any problem finding a dungeon-group. It’s not like people only take Warrior, Guards and Mesmers into dungeons. But I see those from time to time an I started to wonder, if those guys really know what they talk about or just claim things without any proof, based on their “feeling”?

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others.

That’s what bothers me. People say and claim that, but is it really the truth? I mean, there are always those guys doing the math (and kitten I am not one of them)…there got to be some numbers regarding this.

Because I feel people just imagine them being the best damage dealers, because yeah…he is a warrior, kitten armor and sword, got to be stong…and the guardian, lot of blue protection thing, a kitten armor and a hammer, must be strong…and he is called Guardian, he definitly guards us….

Then they look at an engineer….lol, he got funny toys….or the necro…ugly minions, must suck….or a ranger, a cute pet, but please, go away…..

Lol, I sincerely doubt anyone has ever approached the matter like that. It’s just that through experience some things work better than others. You can just ask any decently geared warrior to show off their GS auto attack and 2 skill and see if you can match.

I doubt anyone’s going to bother running any spreadsheets. But don’t listen to me, here’s a more credible source that I dug up: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/81147-warrior-vs-engi-dps-video/#entry2174103

That’s not really saying anything. I mean, maybe the engineer was pretty bad, or could have used other skills? Maybe swiftness? There are just no real facts….people just CLAIM that the warrior or even guardian is this strong and useful…the community can’t be so simple-minded

These are fairly accomplished dungeon runners that have proved their methods work. Until you can provide something better, then this is the best we know. Could there be a better way for the other classes? Sure, but you can’t just be like “Oh maybe, they could have used something else” without providing at least some kind of idea. At the very least, it has more credibility than your own premise that people judge that warriors and guardians must be better because they look stronger.

I’ve seen these two classes pick up big numbers against enemies. Is that not enough observation to show me anything? Go ahead and find someone that can pick up even bigger numbers and we’ll talk.

LFk.1408:

snip

I really can see where people are coming from when they choose to take the heavies.
Maximizing margin of error is a safe play in the game as it stands.

Do I agree with it? No.

snip

Do I understand where people are coming from, though?
Absolutely..

I get what you are saying, and you are right. People will try to minimize the risk of course.
But here is the thing: The difference between a heavy armor profession and a light armor profession is 200 thoughness. That’s, when my numbers are correct, 14% damage reduction (on direct hit). Compared to medium armor, it’s just 7%.

That’s really nothing, come on. If I take 7000 damage or 6500 damage is not very important (heavy- to medium-armor). I am not taking 4 Warriors for that reason alone, when I can get different professions with different and unique skills, that’s just not logical at all.

I have 3 level 80s in full exotics, an engineer, elementalist, and warrior. I don’t do PvP so the following applies to WvWvW and PvE. The only thing my engineer does better than my warrior is jumping puzzles, because of rifle jump. The warrior is not bad for WvWvW, but I prefer the elementalist for his excellent speed, ranged AoE, and crowd control spells. Although armor and damage numbers may not show much advantage to the heavy armor classes, they do not take into account skills and traits. Play a warrior for a while and decide for yourself.

ArchonWing.9480:

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others.

That’s what bothers me. People say and claim that, but is it really the truth? I mean, there are always those guys doing the math (and kitten I am not one of them)…there got to be some numbers regarding this.

Because I feel people just imagine them being the best damage dealers, because yeah…he is a warrior, kitten armor and sword, got to be stong…and the guardian, lot of blue protection thing, a kitten armor and a hammer, must be strong…and he is called Guardian, he definitly guards us….

Then they look at an engineer….lol, he got funny toys….or the necro…ugly minions, must suck….or a ranger, a cute pet, but please, go away…..

Lol, I sincerely doubt anyone has ever approached the matter like that. It’s just that through experience some things work better than others. You can just ask any decently geared warrior to show off their GS auto attack and 2 skill and see if you can match.

I doubt anyone’s going to bother running any spreadsheets. But don’t listen to me, here’s a more credible source that I dug up: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/81147-warrior-vs-engi-dps-video/#entry2174103

That’s not really saying anything. I mean, maybe the engineer was pretty bad, or could have used other skills? Maybe swiftness? There are just no real facts….people just CLAIM that the warrior or even guardian is this strong and useful…the community can’t be so simple-minded

These are fairly accomplished dungeon runners that have proved their methods work. Until you can provide something better, then this is the best we know. Could there be a better way for the other classes? Sure, but you can’t just be like “Oh maybe, they could have used something else” without providing at least some kind of idea. At the very least, it has more credibility than your own premise that people judge that warriors and guardians must be better because they look stronger.

I’ve seen these two classes pick up big numbers against enemies. Is that not enough observation to show me anything? Go ahead and find someone that can pick up even bigger numbers and we’ll talk.

Well, just big numbers isn’t everything. Doing high damage in a short period of time or constant damage over a longer time….it’s the same outcome, really. Yeah, I know people like big numbers. But just because a Warrior does X k damage and a necro does less in 5 seconds, doesn’t mean this is still true in 10 seconds. Or 15 seconds. Or a few minutes.

But I agree, it’s hard to compare the classes, there is no way to evaluate the damage per second (at least no way that I know of, but that doesn’t mean much).

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

AmBoSS.7129:

ArchonWing.9480:

Point is that they can output dps AND provide party support better than the most others.

That’s what bothers me. People say and claim that, but is it really the truth? I mean, there are always those guys doing the math (and kitten I am not one of them)…there got to be some numbers regarding this.

Because I feel people just imagine them being the best damage dealers, because yeah…he is a warrior, kitten armor and sword, got to be stong…and the guardian, lot of blue protection thing, a kitten armor and a hammer, must be strong…and he is called Guardian, he definitly guards us….

Then they look at an engineer….lol, he got funny toys….or the necro…ugly minions, must suck….or a ranger, a cute pet, but please, go away…..

Lol, I sincerely doubt anyone has ever approached the matter like that. It’s just that through experience some things work better than others. You can just ask any decently geared warrior to show off their GS auto attack and 2 skill and see if you can match.

I doubt anyone’s going to bother running any spreadsheets. But don’t listen to me, here’s a more credible source that I dug up: http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/81147-warrior-vs-engi-dps-video/#entry2174103

That’s not really saying anything. I mean, maybe the engineer was pretty bad, or could have used other skills? Maybe swiftness? There are just no real facts….people just CLAIM that the warrior or even guardian is this strong and useful…the community can’t be so simple-minded

These are fairly accomplished dungeon runners that have proved their methods work. Until you can provide something better, then this is the best we know. Could there be a better way for the other classes? Sure, but you can’t just be like “Oh maybe, they could have used something else” without providing at least some kind of idea. At the very least, it has more credibility than your own premise that people judge that warriors and guardians must be better because they look stronger.

I’ve seen these two classes pick up big numbers against enemies. Is that not enough observation to show me anything? Go ahead and find someone that can pick up even bigger numbers and we’ll talk.

Well, just big numbers isn’t everything. Doing high damage in a short period of time or constant damage over a longer time….it’s the same outcome, really. Yeah, I know people like big numbers. But just because a Warrior does X k damage and a necro does less in 5 seconds, doesn’t mean this is still true in 10 seconds. Or 15 seconds. Or a few minutes.

But I agree, it’s hard to compare the classes, there is no way to evaluate the damage per second (at least no way that I know of, but that doesn’t mean much).

Now you have a point. People do the same content over and over again because they feel this is the most efficient. Thus, their perception of effectiveness is based off this small part of the game. And that’s where a lot of the problem comes from, and that’s why it’s happening.

1 guard/1 mesmer/3 warriors is simply the best and easiest setup for speed dungeon runs – thats why they are in demand. If you need numbers, go to guru and look into the class forums – thats where the number crunchers meet up. you dont need to do that tho, as there are tons of videos showing that this group combination does complete CoF etc. fastest (and easiest!). In no way do i claim that those classes are better than other classes – i just want to answer your question why everyone is looking for them. it has nothing to do with “heavy armor” btw – as youll find out sooner or later, that full dps (zerker, …) is the only effective option for good players atm (sadly).

AmBoSS.7129:

That’s really nothing, come on. If I take 7000 damage or 6500 damage is not very important (heavy- to medium-armor). I am not taking 4 Warriors for that reason alone, when I can get different professions with different and unique skills, that’s just not logical at all.

Nobody takes warriors or guardians just for their armor alone. It’s their skills that matter.
Just for your information – i do have characters of all 8 classes. I can also see the difference between inherent class strength and class strength that depends on higher skill level. This is not the case of engineers being equally good but harder to play. They are just weaker.

Just make a warrior and try for yourself. You will see the difference pretty soon. You won’t even need to hit lev 80…

Astralporing.1957:

. This is not the case of engineers being equally good but harder to play. They are just weaker

Well, if this is really the case (and I still think something is wrong with peoples perception) then there is something terribly wrong here. Why would Anet make the Warrior stronger then the engineer while giving him better armor too? Doesn’t make sense at all.

Higher armor means harder to kill (not just the armor itself, but Guardian and Warrior also have nice defensive skills and traits), meaning a smoother run (normally). It might not be the fastest run, but you’ll typically have less deaths and wipes if you’re a defensive focused group able to slowly kill anything. A fast kill glass cannon group would run into issues on certain things. It’s not to say they can’t do it.. it’s just I’ve seen the effects of switching over to my Guardian and making a group that wipes on every pull never wipe again and have a smooth run (For the remainder of it anyway).

Also, while Guardian and Warrior have less… “Special” class features (Such as Mesmer Portals, Elementalist flexability, Etc), they have the core battle features as well as any other class has, and that’s what’s important in major fights.

If they wanted to make more classes more helpful, I’d suggest special mechanics that don’t require a class, but make it easier if you have. Maybe some boss room with a bunch of traps that deal some aoe damage that you can play through, but if you have a Thief Disarm them, it makes it a lot easier. Or a shortcut an Engineer could build a bridge for (Letting you skip a few trash pulls), and so on. Having utility room for the other classes to bring something other than “Battle power” would let the lighter armor classes retain popular use without needing to be made a bunch more powerful than the heavy armor people (Who’s specialty could easily remain that they’re good in fights).

Currently I have 5 level 80s, Warrior, Guardian, Mesmer, Enginner and Necro.

They all preform very well in dungeons, the only glasscannon of them (although with valkyrie armor) is my Mesmer. There hasnt been a need to give him toughness since they just have so many ways to avoid aggro and direct damage in instances.

I’ve had rude comments comming my way before dungeon runs on both my necro and engineer, two classes I just love in PvE aswell as WvW. It often comes from the warrior crowd and rarely from people playing other classes. Whats fun is that most times it’s a GS swinging warrior that spends more time on his back than on his feet dpsing.

Necros and Engineers just brings alot that guardians and warriors dont, things that are just as valueble i.e control and debuffs. Both engineer and necro brings great AoE damage, which can be used safely from range or as a one time close quarter burst hit.

Necro is also a superb “tank” while dealing great damage in the process, there is only one encounter where the necro is a drag really, Powersuit/Elemental in dredge fractal since even when the debuff is up DoTs dont do more damage. But hey, he can control the switches.

The minimal armor gain between light, medium and heavy armor wont make any difference in a duengon if you get hit. The “looking for heavy” is a relic from the trinity system, infecting the minds of those that dont understand the GW2 system.

“Heavy” armor is really only worth taking if the player has invested points to raise his armor, since at that point he is aware of his armor value and survivability. Taking any run of the mill guardian or warrior just for his baseline heavy armor is a waste. It wont save him since it doesnt mitigate enough if he plays a full face to the mace style of play.

AmBoSS.7129:

Astralporing.1957:

. This is not the case of engineers being equally good but harder to play. They are just weaker

Well, if this is really the case (and I still think something is wrong with peoples perception) then there is something terribly wrong here. Why would Anet make the Warrior stronger then the engineer while giving him better armor too? Doesn’t make sense at all.

i hope you just pretend to be that naive …
and again: no one is looking for “heavy armor”. all that counts is dps in full zerker (if you are min maxing) – and warriors/guards plus a mesmer do more dps than others. It is pretty unbelievable how uninformed these forums are.

All I can say is, I mained an ele, then switched to guardian and I have:

-better survivability
-better damage
-better critical group support

As an elementalist I was in no way a detriment to any group I ran with, but Guardians simply outshine them. I run a balanced guardian build and my autoattacks are simply higher than those on my ele even with the perma-fury critical damage build. The fact that I learned to dodge very well on my ele compliments the innate higher survivability of the Guardian. I have more powerful heals that are allmost as frequent as those on my elementalist.

And finally, my critical support skills are better. By that I mean if one of my team mates is in real trouble, as an ele there really isn’t much I can do to save them. As a guardian I can literally save them in a number of ways.

And in WvW, I tend to either kill eles or make them run. So yeah, Guardian is simply better.

Note, however, one important fact. I did not say that elementalists are not fun. They’re great fun to play. All classes should be as complex and versatile. Sadly, being so “all over the place” means that they often feel watered down compared to more streamlined classes. I imagine it is similar with engineers.

My advice is to play what class you like. I liked playing an ele, but I find myself enjoying guardian even more, yes, in part because it feels I get more for my effort, but that should not be the deciding factor in choosing what class you should play.

AmBoSS.7129:

Hmm, it’s again a “fact”….because you/whoever said so? But ok, lets asume the Warrior does very good damage while literally doing less then other professions. It still does not make him stronger, because the other professions can do the same damage (while maybe putting more effort behind it).

No, it’s a fact because it’s been proven through player and community experience over the past few months the game has been out.

Guardians and Mesmers simply have class mechanics that make them far more useful to teams, as I’ve already explained.

I have 8 lvl 80s and run dungeons with all 8 regularly. Warriors out damage all other classes period.

It’s up to you if you want to ignore the general consensus based on experience but it doesn’t change reality.

Well, then, in my opinion, it’s pretty stupid to give for example the Warrior the best armor, better skills than others and more damage…or make Guardians so over the top useful. But well, nothing you can do about that.

every class can do some thing good.
its just that some classes are more specialized in it
mesmer ( control + Timewarp)
gaurdian ( good support + almighty reflect and SoA)
warrior sorry gotta say this but it easily has the best aoe dmg in a certain group set up thanks to cleaving and 100b,

timmyf.1490:

Warriors and Guardians are easier to play for people who don’t want to take the hundreds of hours it can take to learn a class.

(Engineer, Ranger, and maybe Necro also have some bugs that make them a little tougher, but hardly useless.)

Why do people always write stuff like that? No matter how much you practice on your ranger, it won’t magically make wall of reflection, time warp or even for great justice appear on your skillbar, it won’t make the better +x% damage traits appear in your trait slot, and certainly it will not enable you to beat the consistent damage of a well played warrior.
That potential you speak of is just not there.
You can of course outplay, and thus, outdamage noobs playing warrior for example, and you will die less then noobs playing guard, but you will not outperform someone with equal abilities playing a class that simply has access to better tools.

AmBoSS.7129:

Well, then, in my opinion, it’s pretty stupid to give for example the Warrior the best armor, better skills than others and more damage…or make Guardians so over the top useful. But well, nothing you can do about that.

The game is balanced for sPvP leaving PvE an unbalanced mess-the warrior is quite easy to deal with in pvp,so he needs the extra damage to compensate (the health is another issue and has been poorly balanced since the beta,even after they changed it-warrs and necros used to have ~25k HP,which anet realized was just bonkers and they lowered it to what it is now).
The side effect of giving them the extra damage,along with the highest base health in the game is that they are gods in PvE.
Also in the sake of making most classes viable in most situations the warr has all the tools that almost all the other classes have that are super useful in dungeons-area might and fury,a large amount of buffs with banners,area cond removal even area heals with healing shouts-and bringing a mes and guard(in a supporting/dps role) in a group makes you capable of steamrolling trough any dungeon way faster than any other team comp can do-and as anyone who has ever played any mmo before should know DPS is king and the king of DPS is the warrior.
ALL HAIL THE KING

Anet’s mistake was making the health pools so wildly different.
A Warrior might have 80% health than an Ele yet what class has the most OP build in the game with tons of survivability?
Yup, that’s right.

Red Falcon.8257:

Anet’s mistake was making the health pools so wildly different.
A Warrior might have 80% health than an Ele yet what class has the most OP build in the game with tons of survivability?
Yup, that’s right.

gaurdian ? and they got the lowest hp to boot

The vast majority of dungeon runs that want specific classes are CoF p1 and… CoF p1. And Guardians are second-rate citizens in there, while everyone that isn’t a Warrior or Mesmer are just useless peasants.

It has absolutely nothing to do with armour and everything to do with speed. Warriors already do more burst damage than any other class, but put one in full Berserker gear and they can easily maintain near 100% critical chance which makes them kill even faster. Add a single Mesmer into the group to drop Time Warp and dungeon bosses drop in a few seconds. The Mesmer also brings the portal to skip those annoying passages, like the rolling boulders in CoF p1 (this spot in particular can double, or even triple the time it takes to complete the dungeon if you don’t have a Mesmer).

The difference between a “speed run” with four Warriors and one Mesmer in CoF p1 is minimal, but as someone else said it builds up over time. If I remember correctly, the zerk war/mes group can do CoF p1 in about 6 minutes. That’s 10 runs per hour and getting towards 10g in the same time. A group made up of any other combo is looking at 10-15 minutes, or 4-6 runs per hour. People run CoF for gold, they want to maximise the amount of gold they make per hour so will always choose the group that gets twice as much as any other.

As far as the damage of a Warrior goes, that’s just a simple fact. Warriors and Thieves do more burst damage than any other class, but Warriors do it more consistently and have higher general damage than a Thief. Take your Engineer out to WvW and compare how long it takes you to kill anyone to how long it takes a Warrior or Thief to kill you… you will be dead before you have a chance to do anything.

AmBoSS.7129:

Hi there,

I was wondering, is there any particular reason why people often look for : Guardian, Warriors and Mesmers (for dungeonruns, that is)

I have a Mesmer myself, I believe it’s because of AOE-Shatter and Timewarp (and even that’s not necessary in any way, just makes things a little faster)

But what about the Warrior and the Guardian? I mean, yeah, they got heavy armor…but that’s just like +200 Thoughness? Come on, it’s not THAT great, and works only for direct damage, not for condition damage.

I know that the guardian got some very low base-HP, and the warrior…don’t really know anything about warriors, to be honest.

They can’t be SO much better than, lets say, my engineer with a bombkit-build or whatever. Or maybe I just don’t know about Warriors and Guardians doing 500% more damage than an engineer or any class for that matter.

Is it because of the Guardian-Boons? Really, I have no idea, please enlighten me.

Warriors have high dps damage in most PVE areas while guardians have extremely helpful boons and reflect skill which are crucial in many dungeons. Also, their mechanics is what makes guardian tank, not toughness/hp alone.

The real reason why people pick these classes over others is a mix of not understanding the potential of other classes and also that people who DO play the other classes tend to not understand how to play it efficiently themselves. Warriors are very easy to learn to play although good warriors are hard to come by.

Why warrior and guardian? let’s see. Maybe it’s that ranger, necromancer and engineer all have design flaws?

1. Necro: powermancer ranged glass cannon necros can do acceptable damage, and help the team by stacking vulnerability on targets; it also applies protection on a reasonably long cd; warrior banner buffs in general apply to the whole team and are much longer in duration; condition necro is weaker than powermancer; condition damage in general suffers from a design decision meaning that the more people who are using it, the less each individual is contributing. Also, a power necro will kill a single target faster than a condition one in most cases. However, power necro lacks AoE.
2. Ranger: a portion of a ranger’s dps comes from its pet, which does not dodge and does not position itself advantageously the way players will in dungeon play; as a consequence it dies. Rangers also don’t have as many support options as some classes so they provide less dps and less support.
3. Engineer: ANet decided that engineers would pay for their versatility by not having a top-flight damage build. However, that versatility does not allow them to bring anything really unique to the table.

The ease at providing the DPS really isn’t the issue. Fact is, Warriors deal the most DPS of any class by far. And no, 100B isn’t top DPS. The other benefit to the Warrior class is their banners which aid the group and provide valuable boons. Now as for the survivability of the class, this is overstated. These Warriors running Axe/Mace or Greatsword all all in 100% berserkers gear. This means they have slightly more defense then other classes, have about 20k hp, and likely don’t have stability skills or traits. So no, they’ll be obliterated much like anyone else. Endure Pain can cover this some, but not much. The real draw to a Warrior is the damage.

And keep in mind that these types of groups are only really ever considered as part of the COF speed runs, and even then are only shaving off a couple minutes. I think we ran a 3 ranger, ele, and Mesmer group in 11 mins for the CoF speed run. Our 3 warrior, guardian and mesmer group only did it in 8ish. So the benefits to this aren’t that ‘real’.

And lets not forget the pitiful state the Warrior class is in for PvP which is the price it pays for extreme damage in PvE.

Please stop the “You just do not understand other classes” posts. It is not true.

I do agree that fun can be had with many different combinations of classes, but some parts of this game are just a means to an end, like CoF. Need gold , want it fast, not interested in wasting time. 4 wars + my mesmer is the fastest way, but I don’t care as much as others so as long as at least two of the group are War/Guardian I am happy enough. It is always MUCH slower than a full war/mesmer group.

No class can match the damage of a warrior and survive as well at the same time, add a Guardian and you increase everyones survivability.

lastly, Warriors are easy for anyone to play and I am less concerned you might just be bad at your class, die constantly and really make my play time a nightmare.

My advice, join a guild and play with that guild. I have even tried some combos of classes in fractals that went completely wrong with guildies, but we tried anyway for the challenge. 2 ele, 2 thiefs and a necro for fractals, sure why not lets see if we are good enough.

When I play in PuGs I want the best possible outcome so I do my best to stack the deck in my favor.