Guild Wars 2

In the wake of the news about Chris Whiteside’s departure from Arena Net, I’ve been really puzzled at people who are saying that the CDI had little to no noticeable effect on the game itself. I don’t work for ANET, so I can’t say with 100% certainty what was already in development, but I just wanted to link to a post I made summarizing the first four pages of the horizontal progression thread. Link.
This post was made in mid-December of 2013.

I know that some of the CDI threads had less interaction than others, but I believe this thread has had more impact than any other, and it’s certainly the one I was personally most invested in. So, really quickly, I’d just like to point out the things from that list that seem to have made it into the game.

Horizontal progress should be the main form of progress- No new levels in HoT.
GW1 Nostalgia- I didn’t play gw1, so maybe someone else can help me out here, but I know at least of the New Year masks being from GW1, as well as the concept behind the Revenant (channeling legends).
Customize ALL THE THINGS- This is a mixed bag, but there were a lot of suggestions included in this. Offhand, the points that have been taken seem to include: More dyes, more titles, more stuff in the home instance.
Discussion of some sort of a wardrobe system- Wardrobe
Meta achievement skins into the achievement interface- Not done, but certainly helped by the wardrobe.
sub-classes- Specialization in HoT
Minipets- Complete UI overhaul.
More weapon availability- HoT is giving each profession access to a new weapon by way of specialization.
Upgrade clunky interfaces- What we have now isn’t perfect, but it’s certainly addressed some of the problems.
Lore as a reward-S2 has addressed this, but HoT looks like it’s going to be addressing it even more, given what we’ve heard about mastery.
PvE content could be more challenging: Massive strides have been made since that time. Teq revamped, 3headed wurm, Marionette, Silverwastes, just off the top of my head. Defiance is getting addressed in HoT.
Quick way to portal to and from our home instance-Home instance portal stone.
More character customization via scars, tattoos, etc- Masks in the gemstore, new hairstyles/color options
More zones/puzzles: Drytop/Silverwastes
Guild vs. Guild- Coming in HoT
Legendary weapons being able to swap appearance- Bonus! Every weapon can take on another appearance as long as you’ve unlocked it.

This isn’t even an in-depth analysis of that particular thread. This is a rough idea of the first four pages. I’m about the furthest thing out there from an apologist for ANET, and if you don’t believe me, you should check out my posting history. Just the first page should inform you nicely, as to where I’m at with them. But I believe in giving credit where it’s due, and while I am legitimately outraged about certain aspects, it’s appalling to say that the CDI had no visible impact on the game itself.

Mr. Whiteside: Good luck in your endeavours.

Guhracie.3419:

GW1 Nostalgia- I didn’t play gw1, so maybe someone else can help me out here, but I know at least of the New Year masks being from GW1, as well as the concept behind the Revenant (channeling legends).

echoes of the past

Thanks for the link above.

I noticed a lot of people coming back to this point and saying that there’s no way to know what was really a product of the CDI threads vs. what was planned all along, and that’s true, but at that point you might as well stop asking to see what impact the CDI threads had, since you obviously believe the answer is “none at all.”

I’d also like to reiterate that the stuff I mentioned above is all from the first four pages of a single CDI, and it’s all stuff that was requested by players.

Probably the most notable thing that came from the very first CDI is the ability to replay the living story content.

Wallet, Wardrobe, Story Journal.

Three things without even looking. Also worth noting, the total lack of LS2 having a meta achievement for goodies this time around. (This is a plus in my book.)

There are really many issues why people feel CDI had no impact.

I think the main issue is people who arent into development of complex software dont appreciate how much time you need to steer the ship so to speak. People discussed things in the CDI and expected changes in a few weeks which is unrealistic. First an idea has to be analysed and decided if it fits in the game, this take a couple of weeks as different stake holders all weigh in on what it means for their respective areas. IF they decide to go ahead without making any changes to the idea what is without a doubt a high level overview needs to be broken down into workable chunks.

Ex: Lets do GvG where 8 people from one guild fight 8 people from another guild go on head on deadmatch on existant sPvP maps. Seems straight forward enough right? could that be done in a couple of weeks? no. There are a ton of changes that need to happen there
- team code reworked to support 8 instead of 5
- sPvP code changed to allow group based on guild
- sPvP code changed to implement new victory conditions
- create new code for scoring at guild level
- create new interface (potentially more then 1)
- create code to handle grouping at guild level
- most likely more things i am not thinking off.

Each of these needs to be broken down even further to specific tasks.
like say team code reworked to support 8 instead of 5 involved work by multiple teams from actually changing the code that handles group to changing the UI to allow placement of 8 characters instead of 5 to potentially the need to create new assets to do it (new icons etc..)

Now naturally team members have stuff to do as well. Being we know they use scrum, scrum typically works on a concept of sprints which are essentially 2 week work schedules. At any one time there may be a number of sprints which are already scheduled. For example the living world team worked on a 4 month rotation which means that its very likely at the start of the project they’d have 8 sprints that are already preplanned. Not everything makes it into a sprint and pending tasks are stored in what is called a backlog. these new tasks will be placed there, backlog items have a priority and there is no guarantee that next in line it will be these new tasks meaning that its nearly to be expected that items that require no change and that everyone agree should be dont might still take over 6 months before work is even started on them. You might be surprised by how long this prioritization process can delay things. Actually no one needs to be surprised just look at the FOV slider, thats something thats been discussed since launch and took nearly 3 years to make it in game!

Next thing to consider is there is a good chance things will not be implemented 100% as discussed. This in turn might result CDI discussed item to get stuck at design for longer adding to the overall time.

another potentially issue is some of the stuff discussed might be decided by designers to be at odds with the game overall design. In that case instead of adopting the whole thing, Anet might design to take elements of what people discuss and in corporate them in a different way. Like say what if they decided raiding doesnt work for Gw2 but instead got some of the ideas that discussed how raids should work and implemented them for world bosses?

There are really many reasons why people may feel the CDI didnt get much impact but that doesnt necessarily means its the case. There is a good chance even the stuff they decided to go for might still be in the process of being developed. Development is a long term process not something thats accomplished in the short term.

Galen Grey.4709:

There are really many issues why people feel CDI had no impact.

I think the main issue is people who arent into development of complex software dont appreciate how much time you need to steer the ship so to speak. People discussed things in the CDI and expected changes in a few weeks which is unrealistic. First an idea has to be analysed and decided if it fits in the game, this take a couple of weeks as different stake holders all weigh in on what it means for their respective areas. IF they decide to go ahead without making any changes to the idea what is without a doubt a high level overview needs to be broken down into workable chunks.

Ex: Lets do GvG where 8 people from one guild fight 8 people from another guild go on head on deadmatch on existant sPvP maps. Seems straight forward enough right? could that be done in a couple of weeks? no. There are a ton of changes that need to happen there
- team code reworked to support 8 instead of 5
- sPvP code changed to allow group based on guild
- sPvP code changed to implement new victory conditions
- create new code for scoring at guild level
- create new interface (potentially more then 1)
- create code to handle grouping at guild level
- most likely more things i am not thinking off.

Each of these needs to be broken down even further to specific tasks.
like say team code reworked to support 8 instead of 5 involved work by multiple teams from actually changing the code that handles group to changing the UI to allow placement of 8 characters instead of 5 to potentially the need to create new assets to do it (new icons etc..)

Now naturally team members have stuff to do as well. Being we know they use scrum, scrum typically works on a concept of sprints which are essentially 2 week work schedules. At any one time there may be a number of sprints which are already scheduled. For example the living world team worked on a 4 month rotation which means that its very likely at the start of the project they’d have 8 sprints that are already preplanned. Not everything makes it into a sprint and pending tasks are stored in what is called a backlog. these new tasks will be placed there, backlog items have a priority and there is no guarantee that next in line it will be these new tasks meaning that its nearly to be expected that items that require no change and that everyone agree should be dont might still take over 6 months before work is even started on them. You might be surprised by how long this prioritization process can delay things. Actually no one needs to be surprised just look at the FOV slider, thats something thats been discussed since launch and took nearly 3 years to make it in game!

Next thing to consider is there is a good chance things will not be implemented 100% as discussed. This in turn might result CDI discussed item to get stuck at design for longer adding to the overall time.

another potentially issue is some of the stuff discussed might be decided by designers to be at odds with the game overall design. In that case instead of adopting the whole thing, Anet might design to take elements of what people discuss and in corporate them in a different way. Like say what if they decided raiding doesnt work for Gw2 but instead got some of the ideas that discussed how raids should work and implemented them for world bosses?

There are really many reasons why people may feel the CDI didnt get much impact but that doesnt necessarily means its the case. There is a good chance even the stuff they decided to go for might still be in the process of being developed. Development is a long term process not something thats accomplished in the short term.

Sadly, this post will be mostly ignored or not understood. Heck, I’ve been in a few betas where a dev will say something is a cool idea, only to come back and tell us that it wasn’t possible at this time (due to either time, or technology (either restraints so needing a work around, or just not possible)).

Speaking of which, how do we know beta’s matter? What if what players suggest there are already being worked on. What if betas are just people testing for bugs and not looking for suggestions on how to improve a system or QoL? I mean, people might as well never suggest anything ever again because it is already in development already, right?

The Ranger CDI had some direct results as well.

mtpelion.4562:

The Ranger CDI had some direct results as well.

Don’t forget commander CDI, tons of great suggestion and 7-8 months few more colours.

Serophous.9085:

Speaking of which, how do we know beta’s matter? What if what players suggest there are already being worked on. What if betas are just people testing for bugs and not looking for suggestions on how to improve a system or QoL? I mean, people might as well never suggest anything ever again because it is already in development already, right?

betas are always a tricky subject. In truth it always depends on the situation.. most beats happen 3 months before release at that point you’re essentially in code freeze trying to get what you have to as polished a state as possible. So it really depends on the feedback you get. if feedback you get involves changing core mechanics chances are its not going to happen, at least not without a major delay.

That being said it doesnt mean beta’s dont matter. That actually also happens to be the time where plans are drawn out for the future of the game and player feedback might make in some form or another in those plans or future releases, perhaps even in an expansion.

Ultimately people need to understand if at all possible developers would love to follow people’s feedback provided it makes sense for the direction of the game. They’d love for people to be happy with what they get not the opposite. People need also to understand sometimes what you want isnt what you need and what at first glance might look like a great idea may not align with the vision the developer has for the game. Being flexible is good but there are always limits.

CDI is a clever marketing strategy. To open discussion panel with players about things that are already in development, so at the end it may be advertised as player contribution.

So yeah… it looks great at board meeting but not so great at the end of the chain – the game.

Guhracie.3419:

Guild vs. Guild- Coming in HoT

Uh.. no. Stronghold is a PvP map, it’s 5v5 or can be up to 10v10 in a custom arena… PvP not GvG

Would be cool if ppl stopped calling stronghold a GvG.
It’s sPvP map, like courtyard. It wont even get its own queue.
Don’t spread misinformation. This is not GvG.

Many.8419:

Would be cool if ppl stopped calling stronghold a GvG.
It’s sPvP map, like courtyard. It wont even get its own queue.
Don’t spread misinformation. This is not GvG.

What’s hilarious is that the HoT announcement and even the devs said or implied it was “GvG”, but it’s just another PvP map with a different mechanic. Maybe they don’t want to admit how much of their focus is on esports… and by that I mean a lot of it.

Tspatula.9086:

Guhracie.3419:

Guild vs. Guild- Coming in HoT

Uh.. no. Stronghold is a PvP map, it’s 5v5 or can be up to 10v10 in a custom arena… PvP not GvG

ANET called it GvG in the original announcement, so I’m going to stick with that until we’ve actually experienced how it will play.

Could you post the moment of HoT conference where Colin uses GvG or Guild vs Guild part? Because I remember him talking about guild ladder for guild parties to compete but nothing about GvG mode.

first, its more of a moba than something the gvg crowd asked for. anet has recently directly stated they dont have the resources to support GvG and would like to do so in the future but currently will not (been a month or 2 now). most disappointing post ive seen from anet tbh imo, even more so than “soon™” about SAB.

second, im not sure if this is a direct result of the cdi, but its certainly a direct result of player feedback.

What’s CDI mean?

Guhracie.3419:

Tspatula.9086:

Guhracie.3419:

Guild vs. Guild- Coming in HoT

Uh.. no. Stronghold is a PvP map, it’s 5v5 or can be up to 10v10 in a custom arena… PvP not GvG

ANET called it GvG in the original announcement, so I’m going to stick with that until we’ve actually experienced how it will play.

If it’s GvG why is it going to be in the PvP map rotation in Hearts of the Mist and going to be 5v5 just like every other map in the PvP rotation?

The blade shard backpacks (and now the crafter backpacks) came directly out of CDI discussion and they hit within 6 weeks of upgradable-in-stages items were proposed. I found the turn-around time on that actually kinda breathtaking and said so at the time.

Superior Rune of the Trapper is a CDI suggestion (yes, I’m a bit proud of it).

Retractions and back-pedaling on Scarlet having actually graduated from all three Asuran Colleges is a result of the CDI process as is the LS episode that is the relatively quiet break in of her lair.

Big chunks of the Heart of Thorns look very much like the fully processed culmination of discussion on character progression 14 months ago.

Its definitely not a game of immediate gratification, but it can pay off nicely over time.

Ravinsild.4637:

What’s CDI mean?

Collaborative Development Initiative. A brainstorming session between devs and players on a focused topic. Originally the threads were in General Discussion. Now they’ve been moved to https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/cdi and I hope they will continue even with the primary dev voice in them departing the company.

One or two of them dissolved into flame fests, but some were long lasting robust intelligent debates on game design.

Nike.2631:

The blade shard backpacks (and now the crafter backpacks) came directly out of CDI discussion and they hit within 6 weeks of upgradable-in-stages items were proposed. I found the turn-around time on that actually kinda breathtaking and said so at the time.

Superior Rune of the Trapper is a CDI suggestion (yes, I’m a bit proud of it).

Retractions and back-pedaling on Scarlet having actually graduated from all three Asuran Colleges is a result of the CDI process as is the LS episode that is the relatively quiet break in of her lair.

Big chunks of the Heart of Thorns look very much like the fully processed culmination of discussion on character progression 14 months ago.

Its definitely not a game of immediate gratification, but it can pay off nicely over time.

I also think Mawdrey was the result of many suggestions in the horizontal progression thread, regarding involved questing in upgrading items. I’ll also point out that all of the armor that’s been released in the last year has been released as in-game sets, not gemstore sets. (Carapace, Glorious and Radiant/Hellfire all come to mind)