Guild Wars 2

Mirta and Galen the “Gray” Knight is here! RUN!!11!!!1!

@ Galen Grey… Thank you for answering my question.

A simple “no” would have sufficed. An answer that requires no mention of “conspiracy”, “manipulation” or the assumption that I think anyone that defends Anet is an “under cover employee”.

Your choice of words. Not mine.

In answer to your question; No. I do not think that anyone who thinks Arenanet are doing more right then wrong has to be an under cover employee.

But like many people, I observe patterns in the world around me. These patterns cause me to question things. When I question things, I seek answers. When I receive answers they help to inform me as to the validity or otherwise of the patterns I observe.

Pretty normal human behaviour as far as I can ascertain.

@ Tobias Trueflight… Thanks for your answer on Galens’ behalf.

@ Galen & Tobias.

With your evident love of plans perhaps you can tell me/us why, if plan K was fun… have ANet now dumped it for plan Z?

Plan Z being to suck the fun out of GW2 for many of it’s players one patch at a time.

@ OP. Snores. I am also worried about the direction being taken by Anet with GW2.

For a game that showed such promise on release, Anet seem to be making some very questionable decisions. The pattern of development many of us are seeing, leads us to make conclusions that may or may not prove to be correct in the long term.

So we continue to ask questions in the hope of answers. When we receive misleading responses, PR spin or silence, the overall pattern remains unresolved and we are left with more questions.

Which is why I personally have so many doubts about some of the posters on the forums who seem to have answers for everything!

This business strategy is the typical NC soft model. I doubt it comes from Arenanet. I don’t care how many times they say they have control over their game, look at the bottom of this webpage and read the fine print next to the nsoft logo -_-.

nic.5720:

With your evident love of plans perhaps you can tell me/us why, if plan K was fun… have ANet now dumped it for plan Z?

Plan Z being to suck the fun out of GW2 for many of it’s players one patch at a time.

Well I’m not seeing it. So far the only thing after the mess up with the new gear tier I’ve seen them do is implement something really nice (an ability to change your character’s appearance), fix many bugs (many events that were not working now work pretty kitten well), implement more cutscenes into the story mode (noticed running trough the story on my alts) and try to fight botting with DR, which, for a conscious player is easy to avoid.

I have a crazy conspiracy theory where I think anet nerfed the drop rare on yellows and ectos to make the price raise artificially, and cause more people to buy gems with real money, and convert to gold.

And with the ever increasing price of gems from gold, trading in money for gems becomes “viable”.

No monthly fee? No, but you’ll pay for the stuff you want.

Vakirauta.6397:

Mirta and Galen the “Gray” Knight is here! RUN!!11!!!1!

This can be an indication http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gaile_Gray

I am sure Galen derived his name from here.

@Mirta… If you don’t see it… then you don’t see it! That’s fine.

I recall from another post of yours that you’ve been playing for about a month. Is that correct?

If so, then you probably have no direct experience of what GW2 was actually like for the first six weeks or so. This may be why you don’t see it. You’ve not known any different. But for many of us that participated in the Beta weekends and pre-release it seems to be more apparent.

nic.5720:

@Mirta… If you don’t see it… then you don’t see it! That’s fine.

I recall from another post of yours that you’ve been playing for about a month. Is that correct?

If so, then you probably have no direct experience of what GW2 was actually like for the first six weeks or so. This may be why you don’t see it. You’ve not known any different. But for many of us that participated in the Beta weekends and pre-release it seems to be more apparent.

Well it’s just me and my opinion. My boyfriend was in the beta test and playing from the start. He used to tell me a lot about it. And he still enjoys this game and doesn’t really see any problems, just like me. But then again different player experience happens. Especially when we have so many different players, servers and some of us are experiencing different bugs/ problems based on our hardware and the server we are in.

Gehenna.3625:

Vakirauta.6397:

Mirta and Galen the “Gray” Knight is here! RUN!!11!!!1!

This can be an indication http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gaile_Gray

I am sure Galen derived his name from here.

AHAHAHA, that is legendary.

nic.5720:

@ Galen Grey… Thank you for answering my question.

A simple “no” would have sufficed. An answer that requires no mention of “conspiracy”, “manipulation” or the assumption that I think anyone that defends Anet is an “under cover employee”.

Your choice of words. Not mine.

In answer to your question; No. I do not think that anyone who thinks Arenanet are doing more right then wrong has to be an under cover employee.

But like many people, I observe patterns in the world around me. These patterns cause me to question things. When I question things, I seek answers. When I receive answers they help to inform me as to the validity or otherwise of the patterns I observe.

Pretty normal human behaviour as far as I can ascertain.

@ Tobias Trueflight… Thanks for your answer on Galens’ behalf.

@ Galen & Tobias.

With your evident love of plans perhaps you can tell me/us why, if plan K was fun… have ANet now dumped it for plan Z?

Plan Z being to suck the fun out of GW2 for many of it’s players one patch at a time.

Oh no, nooooo, you don’t get to use implications while avoiding a statement, then fall back on “I didn’t say that”. You implied, you suggested, all without saying directly. Then when someone makes a specific denial, you claim “oh I never said that, why would you say that?” That’s playing dirty. I play fair when I enter discussions, even if I might ramble off on tangential thoughts.

You want to . . . imply, suggest . . . that I have some insight into what’s going on in the inner circle? And you want to go for sarcasm for the bonus points, that’s admirable. I’d almost applaud if it wasn’t misguided.

If you meant it seriously, then I’ll answer it seriously. Though it requires a Socratic approach:

Why do you think that has to be the plan?

nic.5720:

@ Galen & Tobias.

With your evident love of plans perhaps you can tell me/us why, if plan K was fun… have ANet now dumped it for plan Z?

Plan Z being to suck the fun out of GW2 for many of it’s players one patch at a time.

So we continue to ask questions in the hope of answers. When we receive misleading responses, PR spin or silence, the overall pattern remains unresolved and we are left with more questions.

Which is why I personally have so many doubts about some of the posters on the forums who seem to have answers for everything!

I dont know what to tell you! honestly nothing change for me since bwes except there is more content for me to choose from which should technically be a good thing! I understand what you’re saying about patterns and thats what I see here as well! the pattern I am seeing is people unable to let go of things thats why there is this issue imho!

I know farming some events is a ton more profitable then exploring say Brisban Wildlands but I have more fun exploring so thats what I do! I know running FoTM brings a ton of money, but I dont like repeating content so I just do it a few times to get my monthly achievement and thats it! I know getting A full Exotic set armor will make me more powerful but crafting the crossing is something I give priority to! I know If i had to farm specifically for the ingrediants I need to craft the crossing I will get it quicker but there is no fun in it, playing what I enjoy still gets me what I need even though slower!

You just need to focus on the fun and ignore “the best!” thats the secret in my opinion! thats all there is to it! whatever was fun last month is still in game exactly as it was before today! your fun didnt change you are just having trouble letting go of profit/power in order to choose the content you found fun I am afraid!

Anet didnt dump plan K, they left Plan K exactly as it was and introduced Plan Z for people who like plan Z ! though Plan Z is designed so as to be entirley optional! and be optional I mean if you ignore ascended gear you can still play anything you desire effectively! some people who like plan K seem to feel obligated to play Plan Z!

The thing is arenanet are in a tricky sitation just like in police movies anything they say can and WILL be used against them! If they make a statement that statement will be twisted to mean what people want it to mean! such as when they said Ascended armor was intended to fill a gap between exotic and legendary! To me it was obvious they wanted to imply a time gap yet people called them liars and trying to manipulate them and what not because they said there was no gap before arenanet created it themselves (these people decided that gap meant a power gap not a time gap)! that puts a lot of pressure on people if an employee not authroized to speak did such a mistake (though not really a mistake) they could get fired over something like that! Essentially players are causing the silence by making it unsafe for anet employees to clarify things in my opinion! That being said I am not sure how you can say they’re being silent either ! I mean they organized an AMA on reddit on the subject and kept it going for 10 whole hours! thats quite communicative right?

As for posters who have an answer to everything, well cant speak for everyone! and I dont have an answer to everything for sure! But I am being honest and just simply explaining my views! thats never hard to do ! I arenanet did something I dont Like I’d simply say I dont like it ! (like I did when they first announced ascended armor after all!) but if I disagree with something all I have to do is explain why! thats never hard to do!

@ Tobias Trueflight…

Yes. I asked Galen Grey a couple of oblique, loaded questions. I chose not to use the words “conspiracy”, “manipulation” or “undercover employee”. You can nitpick all you want. I did not use them. No further discussion on the matter is warranted.

You “implied/suggested” yourself as possessing some insight when you responded to my question to Galen Grey in the following manner?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Crap! Galen, they’re onto us. Quick, remember Plan B and hope they don’t sniff out the names this time!

. . . Now onto seriousness.

Oh! My bad. Was that also sarcasm I detected in your reply? In which case the bonus points you refer to belong wholly with you. I’m not playing for points!

And as for plan Z!

Are you seriously telling me that only you and Galen Grey are allowed to play the “Men in Black” game! Doh!

Tobias if you wish to continue this conversation in this manner, please feel free to PM me.

@ Galen Grey…

If you don’t see any of the less positive changes since the beta weekends then as I wrote to Mirta earlier…. You don’t see them. That’s fine. I’m not going to argue for or against them with you. Any regular forum reader will be well acquainted with the discussions.

If you’re still experiencing (plan K) fun. All well and good. I’m happy for you. Many on the forums (myself included) appear to be experiencing (plan Z) a diminishing sense of fun!

Both experiences are entirely subjective. Both are equally valid.

I’m pleased that you understand the whole pattern thing and hence the reason for my initial questions to you. I prefer not to draw conclusions until I have sufficient information on which to base them. That’s why I ask questions.

@ Tobias Trueflight & Galen Grey…

Do you often find yourselves unconsciously dividing your responses to posts in such a seemingly coordinated manner?

Just kidding! Or am I? :-P

@ Gehenna…

Yep. Exactly what I thought and also part of what prompted my initial question to Galen Grey.

Hmmm, didn’t really start this thread as a robust discussion on P2W games. It was mainly based on what I believe to be the slippery slope that the company has started down. The observations of increased grind, vertical progression and what seems ro be an out of control economy. I was hoping to get peoples opinion on the direction the company has taken since release and wether we’ll see more of it in the future.
I will weigh in on the P2W argument though. I believe it depends entirely on your definition of ‘win’ in an MMO. What exactly do you consider to be ‘Win’ in GW2?
If you believe that having a fully geared 80 with all the best gear, bells and trimmings then yes, GW2 is definitely P2W. If you believe it tb be having a distinct advantage over a non paying customer then I’d have to say no, as any one has access to the ability to get similar geared.
What does wrry me though is that if the company continues along the path it has been travelling since release, they are going to make the cash shop more and more attractive for your avg player. Enticement can be a terribly powerful tool to manipulate the OCD types who make up the major population of most MMOs.

with no subscription fee, they gotta make money elsewhere. Unless you want advertisement bill boards all over the map… Or Jormag’s Claw holding a coke bottle and drinking it, life replenish. Oh wait that might make people hate coke.
Because of that, anet has no choice but resort to rogue tactics to get more people to use jems. They are a business after all.

Agreed, and they are fully entitled to monetize their product as they see fit. Though at which point does it become exploitative behaviour ? and how far will they go to increase their profits? There’s already alot of unhappy customers out there now

they might even give you jems with a proof of purchase of products from their sponsors.

Snores.7806:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Thanks for the explanation.

I can see how this works for Call of Duty for example. But for an MMO, that is supposed to be long-term enjoyment, this would be shooting themselves in the foot. No one would ever buy something from them again. Ever.

I honestly think Anet isnt stupid enough to choose a course like that. Which brings me to my second question: why do you think anet would choose a course like this?

Which AAA MMO have you participated in for the last 5 tears has given you “long term enjoyment” ? Swtor ? DCUO ? LotRO ? AoC? WAR ?

I can’t name a single one apart from WoW and EVE, and they’ve been going for 10 yrs. MMO companies have discovered that the easy bucks are based around hype and a quick turnaround

First, WoW came out in November of 2004. By the most recent discoveries in the field of mathematics, it turns out that WoW, then, has only been out for eight years, not ten. Likewise, Eve was released in May of 2003, which means it has been out only a bit over nine years, not ten. By contrast, SWG came out only month after Eve and over a year before WoW. Even despite the NGE, the game lasted until December of last year, which means it was out as long as WoW has been thus far. More to the point, EQ2 came out a month before WoW, and it is still going. LotRO released in April 2007. It is still around.

As to the “long term enjoyment” argument, I have never and will never play Eve, and I played WoW for a total of seven months. By contrast, I played SWG on and off until just before LotRO came out, probably about two years total play time. I played EQ2 for a total of at least two years. I played LotRO from Open Beta until the day they announced it was going free-to-play. It released in April 2007, and the announcement was in June of 2010, that means I played LotRO for just over three years. I left because of the announcement they were going free to play, not because of the game play itself.

Similarly, I played SW:TOR from early access. I left around August this year, not because I did not like the game, but because I got fed up with the negativity of people who wanted the game to be SWG2, WoW in space, or KOTOR: Online and were finding fault with every aspect of the game because it was not. In short, I left the game because of the community, not the game itself, but, still, I played it at least as long as I played WoW. Additionally, I played Rift longer than I played WoW. I played STO longer than I played WoW (I am still playing it on and off).

The idea that the only games that are in it for the long-term are WoW and Eve or that only they offer long-term enjoyment is non-sense. MMOs are experimenting with non-traditional subscription models (with a hybrid subscription/free-to-play combination being the most likely next standard model), but they are not throwing away millions of dollars of development money in the hopes of running a game for only a couple of years. Some MMOs have, indeed, failed out of the gate. But these failed from either bad design or the growing unrealistic expectations of the MMO community as a whole, not because of some tin-hat conspiracy that they are looking only for short term profits.

nic.5720:

@ Tobias Trueflight…

Yes. I asked Galen Grey a couple of oblique, loaded questions. I chose not to use the words “conspiracy”, “manipulation” or “undercover employee”. You can nitpick all you want. I did not use them. No further discussion on the matter is warranted.

You “implied/suggested” yourself as possessing some insight when you responded to my question to Galen Grey in the following manner?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Crap! Galen, they’re onto us. Quick, remember Plan B and hope they don’t sniff out the names this time!

. . . Now onto seriousness.

Oh! My bad. Was that also sarcasm I detected in your reply? In which case the bonus points you refer to belong wholly with you. I’m not playing for points!

And as for plan Z!

Are you seriously telling me that only you and Galen Grey are allowed to play the “Men in Black” game! Doh!

Tobias if you wish to continue this conversation in this manner, please feel free to PM me.

@ Tobias Trueflight & Galen Grey…

Do you often find yourselves unconsciously dividing your responses to posts in such a seemingly coordinated manner?

Just kidding! Or am I? :-P

Well, you see, I take the entertaining road with answers, he takes the serious one mostly because I’m done taking the arguments around this game 100% serious anymore. I play the game when I find myself wanting to, and if I’m not having fun then I don’t play it.

And if I don’t play it, then it will be there tomorrow. Or the day after.

The day will definitely come when I will find myself entirely unwilling to log in because it just isn’t fun. I reached that point with Guild Wars 1, after all, and I loved playing that game for six years. The seventh, well, it’d done lost its luster and I had other things which were more intriguing and interesting.

But you know what, I’d just really love it if people could express what they find wrong with the game . . . and not stoop to the following:

- Conspiracy theories. “They’re tanking their game on purpose!” “They’re messing it up just to coax more money out of us!”
- Namecalling. “Fanboy! Hater! Apologist! Whiner! Grind-lover!”
- Analogies to real life politics. (Insert your own here.)
- Underhanded tactics to hurt the game or those still playing it. “Review bomb the game so it doesn’t sell! That’ll teach them.”

I’d prefer . . . much much prefer . . . constructive approaches to the mess.

Snores.7806:

What does wrry me though is that if the company continues along the path it has been travelling since release, they are going to make the cash shop more and more attractive for your avg player. Enticement can be a terribly powerful tool to manipulate the OCD types who make up the major population of most MMOs.

Alas, that’s the job of some people who work there . . . to make those Gem purchases enticing. Without, mind you, making them unbalancing to the game. Dye packs, Mini pets, costumes, rare skins . . . boosters which are only good in PvE . . .

They do have to make their money somewhere. It is missing the point entirely to say they should not be. (It’s not subscription, they have to pay for the expenses and the purchase price only goes so far.) What should be done is pretty much what is happening currently – nothing which Gems can get you is severely unbalancing to the game.

Given the shop which existed in GW1 since early days (skill unlocks, pet packs) . . . I don’t think the track record suggests it will be as kittenome other games I’ve seen. It will definitely not be as enticing as Riot Games’ League of Legends.

(Purchasing Riot Points to buy a champion is far far easier than getting enough Influence Points through playing to do so. It’s so tempting to just plunk down ONLY $20 so you can get those two characters you got to love so much over the last couple weeks . . . rather than wait for them to cycle back into the free pool.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

nothing which Gems can get you is severely unbalancing to the game.

Gold.

Sotaudi.1265:

Snores.7806:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Thanks for the explanation.

I can see how this works for Call of Duty for example. But for an MMO, that is supposed to be long-term enjoyment, this would be shooting themselves in the foot. No one would ever buy something from them again. Ever.

I honestly think Anet isnt stupid enough to choose a course like that. Which brings me to my second question: why do you think anet would choose a course like this?

Which AAA MMO have you participated in for the last 5 tears has given you “long term enjoyment” ? Swtor ? DCUO ? LotRO ? AoC? WAR ?

I can’t name a single one apart from WoW and EVE, and they’ve been going for 10 yrs. MMO companies have discovered that the easy bucks are based around hype and a quick turnaround

First, WoW came out in November of 2004. By the most recent discoveries in the field of mathematics, it turns out that WoW, then, has only been out for eight years, not ten. Likewise, Eve was released in May of 2003, which means it has been out only a bit over nine years, not ten. By contrast, SWG came out only month after Eve and over a year before WoW. Even despite the NGE, the game lasted until December of last year, which means it was out as long as WoW has been thus far. More to the point, EQ2 came out a month before WoW, and it is still going. LotRO released in April 2007. It is still around.

As to the “long term enjoyment” argument, I have never and will never play Eve, and I played WoW for a total of seven months. By contrast, I played SWG on and off until just before LotRO came out, probably about two years total play time. I played EQ2 for a total of at least two years. I played LotRO from Open Beta until the day they announced it was going free-to-play. It released in April 2007, and the announcement was in June of 2010, that means I played LotRO for just over three years. I left because of the announcement they were going free to play, not because of the game play itself.

Similarly, I played SW:TOR from early access. I left around August this year, not because I did not like the game, but because I got fed up with the negativity of people who wanted the game to be SWG2, WoW in space, or KOTOR: Online and were finding fault with every aspect of the game because it was not. In short, I left the game because of the community, not the game itself, but, still, I played it at least as long as I played WoW. Additionally, I played Rift longer than I played WoW. I played STO longer than I played WoW (I am still playing it on and off).

The idea that the only games that are in it for the long-term are WoW and Eve or that only they offer long-term enjoyment is non-sense. MMOs are experimenting with non-traditional subscription models (with a hybrid subscription/free-to-play combination being the most likely next standard model), but they are not throwing away millions of dollars of development money in the hopes of running a game for only a couple of years. Some MMOs have, indeed, failed out of the gate. But these failed from either bad design or the growing unrealistic expectations of the MMO community as a whole, not because of some tin-hat conspiracy that they are looking only for short term profits.

I like my tin foil hat. It’s snug, warm and stops the CIA from scanning my thoughts with their ebil, ebil satellites

But I digress. As I’ve said in a previous post, this is just my opinion, and I’m running a holding pattern with GW2 atm and waiting to see how it develops. I only statted playing MMOs about 7 yrs ago and certainly havn’t seen everything on the market. My opinions are based alot on study and conjecture but they are my opinions. This is the first mMo Ilve played that haa a cash shop really, others developed them aftervIld given up and have never come back.

All in all I’m happy to be re-educated by the more knowledgable gamers out there. Just pls keep the flaming and personal attacks to a minimum

Fuz.5621:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

nothing which Gems can get you is severely unbalancing to the game.

Gold.

. . . that’s the economy. Slight difference.

Also, take some time to explain the way you having more Gold than me translates into you being better than me.

Galen Grey.4709:

I disagree, I actually think its quite the opposite, they’re trying to make a game with something for everyone!

We actually agree, they are trying to make the game for everyone. Hospital food is also made for everyone and that stuff is delicious. You know what else everyone likes? Pandas!!! Who doesn’t like pandas. In the next update they should add pandas. They can call is Pandas in the Mist. Now that would get me playing again.

GregT.4702:

Snores.7806:

I’m am worried about the direction of GW2.

…patches and updates that do little to nothing for the long term development of the game and it’s community….
… constant content push […] for new content instead of a focus on game stability and playability. The steady nerfs to the economy, drop rates and general wealth generation. The lack of genuine communication and any real QA from the development team.

Dude, I don’t know what you’re seeing or what your experience is, but I can tell you in 30 years of gaming:

• I’ve rarely seen a game release solid new content this reliably or this often;
• I’ve never seen a game team of this size answer questions so frankly and fully in so many different places; and
• with the notable exception of EVE Online, I’ve never seen a game take such a serious and professional approach to managing its economy.

I’m ignoring, obviously, Lost Shores, which had just a ton of problems which the dev team have never fully addressed. And the game’s not perfect, obviously, because otherwise everyone everywhere would play it and I’d never need any other game ever again. But beyond that – man, if you find a game that does all these things BETTER, be sure to tell me what it is, and what I need to smoke in order to play it.

Please tell me you’re joking, GregT. I left Rift by Trion for GW2, and I often wonder if I’ve made a good decision. The content releases here are largely untested, hence the massive amount of bugs and glitches we see regularly. This was nearly a non-issue for Rift, which used a Test Shard, and weeks of player feedback to weed out bugs and implement fixes that worked. This equals near bug-free content when everything goes live. This also gave players time to review upcoming changes and give feedback to the Devs.

The development team is on the forums daily, answering questions about mechanics, upcoming changes, and general fixes in the pipeline. There’s no “PR speak” like we get here; there’s just Devs being open about what’s up.

And how can you “ignore” Lost Shores when it’s a shining example of just how badly the ball has been dropped here?

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not raging, I’m not leaving GW2, and I want this game to succeed… but the amount of errors we’re seeing from ANet since release is, in my opinion, staggering. I’m really hoping they can recover before the playerbase gives up on them.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . that’s the economy.

No.

Fuz.5621:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . that’s the economy.

No.

Explain?

i think the problem with purchasable gold is: i have money to buy on tp whatever crafting mats (precursor, named etc. etc) i need for the new stat increasing shiny before non paying people would do with the normal grind wars2.

or i think this is the issue most people have in mind about gems/gold trading

i play since the 1st of october and as far as i checked (not to often i must say) i saw only the cost of 1 gem in gold increase and never the other way around… which means if we want to address an issue here: i’d rather not to spend my hard earned gold for let’s say a new bank slot even if i really need it, but i can always buy gems and become rich and also with a larger bank (note with a new contents come a lots of things that stacks just in the bank… even if there is a different way for the same kind of items to stack… ie. candy corn, shattering skulls, passiflora, karka shells etc, they are crafting mats, but if you want to keep it you have to use bank slots, which means if i want to keep it i have to buy bank slots or destroy/selling other items… there are a lot of dungeon currencies that cannot be walleted anywhere so you have to use bank slots… and each dungeon has its currencies… a lot of space used, then there is the pvp tickets, the badge of honor, the rare mats like lodestones and we could use some free space either, for cosmetics, boosts etc etc…. are we or are we not pushed in that direction someway? at least with bank which is the only problem i have until now?)

so as far as i am concerned i don’t care about gold, about grind, about farm, but sometimes it pops in my mind:

i don’t play gw1 since 2 years now… but i know if i want to play it, my gears are still max stats, and my characters are still competitive with players playing all the time (except they are good at play and i’m not anyway)… would this be happening in gw2?

if the answer is yes, i’ll take a deep breath, go on with my slow farmville gameplay (which i keep slow because i don’t want to reduce fun with a full time online farmer job), i’ll keep fighting jormag, run events, occasionally dungeons, wvwvw and maybe even a spvp (i already have one slot in that infamous bank for tickets i’ll never use) and no one will ask me to be fully ascended to play…
if the answer is no…. that keeps me far away from new content, or party play and there are only 3 solution to the problem:
1 i grind the fun out of the game
2 i buy gold from gems
3 i invoke the release of elder scroll on line hoping i won’t have the same problem (which is unlikely because no one seems to be able to think out of the grindbox)

nic.5720:

@ Galen Grey…

If you don’t see any of the less positive changes since the beta weekends then as I wrote to Mirta earlier…. You don’t see them. That’s fine. I’m not going to argue for or against them with you. Any regular forum reader will be well acquainted with the discussions.

If you’re still experiencing (plan K) fun. All well and good. I’m happy for you. Many on the forums (myself included) appear to be experiencing (plan Z) a diminishing sense of fun!

Both experiences are entirely subjective. Both are equally valid.

I’m pleased that you understand the whole pattern thing and hence the reason for my initial questions to you. I prefer not to draw conclusions until I have sufficient information on which to base them. That’s why I ask questions.

@ Tobias Trueflight & Galen Grey…

Do you often find yourselves unconsciously dividing your responses to posts in such a seemingly coordinated manner?

Just kidding! Or am I? :-P

@ Gehenna…

Yep. Exactly what I thought and also part of what prompted my initial question to Galen Grey.

Ohh no dont get me wrong I see gear progression a bad just as much as the next guy! Like I told you I was one who expressed his disapproval of whole thing in the big thread thingy! But that being said as it is right now, the whole progression thing is still limited to that one dungeon! as it is right now You dont need the top tier to handle any content in the game! you dont even need the tier before that! As is right now all the negatives that make me strongly dislike vertical progression are simply not present in this game! In every MMO I played getting the absolute best gear involves repetition and in most cases grind.. I hate that I play games for fun so I never bother with the best gear! That has some implications biggest of which is its probably something that has really made me dislike PvP cause since I never bother with the best gear I have a track record of dieing a lot in PvP! not so in Gw2! Even in WvW even if I have sub standard gear (mostly Rare with a few Exotics) I am still very much competitive in WvW and there is 0 issue coming from gear in sPvP! In PvE not only I dont have to have anything better then Rare but I have even geared that with MF from top to bottom and am still able to play any content ! It even still feels too easy to be honest! What I am trying to say is yes I agree with you vertical progression is bad! yes I agree with you FoTM is all about vertical progression (well its fun too if taken in small doses but I wouldnt want to repeat the amounts required to get the gear) But what I disagree with you over that FoTM and the Ascended gear turned something that was lots of fun into something thats boring or any less fun! Even if you feel you have to have Ascended gear at all costs there is no really hurry to get it because it will make a very very small difference in WvW and nothing else anywhere! with that in mind they already said that like all other tiers it will be available through all the different content Gw2 has to offer so why not continue playing what you find fun and simple hoard whatever will ultimately get you that ascended set you want? be it karma, gold, crafting materials? If you love exploration, dynamic events, WvW, Crafting, Dungeons, whatever the lost shores update didnt remove any of it ! You and you alone decided to ignore all the aspects that are fun and concintrate on the one thing you dislike! that to me isnt exactly a good idea especially considering you can play just as happily with out !

as for me and Tobias Trueflight, rest easy, we dont know each other IRL or even on the forum, we’re just two posters who seem to think alike on this particular subject!

Snores.7806:

Hmmm, didn’t really start this thread as a robust discussion on P2W games. It was mainly based on what I believe to be the slippery slope that the company has started down. The observations of increased grind, vertical progression and what seems ro be an out of control economy. I was hoping to get peoples opinion on the direction the company has taken since release and wether we’ll see more of it in the future.
I will weigh in on the P2W argument though. I believe it depends entirely on your definition of ‘win’ in an MMO. What exactly do you consider to be ‘Win’ in GW2?
If you believe that having a fully geared 80 with all the best gear, bells and trimmings then yes, GW2 is definitely P2W. If you believe it tb be having a distinct advantage over a non paying customer then I’d have to say no, as any one has access to the ability to get similar geared.
What does wrry me though is that if the company continues along the path it has been travelling since release, they are going to make the cash shop more and more attractive for your avg player. Enticement can be a terribly powerful tool to manipulate the OCD types who make up the major population of most MMOs.

What slippery slop has the company started down? grind? is it really the game thats creating grind or player’s impatience? I mean having stuff thats hard to aquire is important for any MMO, last thing you want is people feeling they have aquired all they want to aquire in a week! But then how you aquire stuff makes all the difference. in most MMOs acquiring the best gear means raiding which in turns means running a dungeon repeatedly ! if thats something you enjoy then perfect no problem, if you dont then thats grind you cant avoid if you’re trying to aquire that gear. Gw2 tries to solve this problem by not tying gear aquistion to a specific activity you can just play anything you want that will in turn get you to the gear tier you desire! You like dynamic events? karma and gold will get you any gear tier (well they will once they finish introducing ascended gear everywhere) you like WvW you can use badges, you like crafting? check! The game gives the tools to the players so they can simply play what they enjoy to aquire what they want thus making sure no one feels like they’re grinding but player impactience created a situation in which fun comes secondary to reward so they focus on repeating the content that pays most thus creating grind themselves!

vertical progression, sure there is vertical progression in FoTM with infusions, completely true! you dont like vertical progression dont engage in it pretty simple! infusions will not make a difference in the open world or in WvW ! just eat the highest tier food it will give you x34 times the stats current infusions will give you!

how is the economy out of control? the economy is player driven, any chances are the result of players and it will stabilize in the long run! if players get greedy and overprice things buyers will simply stop to buy deciding getting materials themselves is a better option then stuff will start to drop!

A fully geared player with all the bells and whistles can only gain an advantage in WvW and thats just when it comes to killing other players which isnt really a win! an objective in WvW isnt kill count, its aquiring and holding Objectives! Further more you’re over estimating how important armor is! my set is only have 33% exotic and the rest all rare yet my kill to death ratio is really high! I definitely disagree that spending money to get the best gear makes the game definitely pay to win! For starters you can gear in the same stuff that person who bought his gear which means if you pay you dont really get an advantage per-se you just get there faster! And Gw2 is primarily a skill based game so having the best armor doesnt necessarily even give you a real advantage! I even had a positive kill to death ration when for science I tried to play a bit of WvW without any armor or accessories on! People overrate how much armor factors in this skill based combat imho!

If anything I wouldnt argue that having the best armor makes it pay to win, a better argument would be using gold to buy seige weapons might make the game more pay to win! in fact I would consider it so personally were it not for the game addressing that through the use of supply to ensure someone with money cant just endlessly spawn seige weapons!

Enzomiles.6197:

Galen Grey.4709:

I disagree, I actually think its quite the opposite, they’re trying to make a game with something for everyone!

We actually agree, they are trying to make the game for everyone. Hospital food is also made for everyone and that stuff is delicious. You know what else everyone likes? Pandas!!! Who doesn’t like pandas. In the next update they should add pandas. They can call is Pandas in the Mist. Now that would get me playing again.

I honestly dont get why it is a problem to focus on the things you like and ignore the things you dislike in a game!

Every game does it to some degree! Having both PvP and PvE in a game is doing things for everyone for example! why is that ok and this isnt?

Having crafting and questing is doing multiple things that multiple people like, why is that okey and this isnt?

Seriously? do you think a game is subpar just cause it has PvP and PvE mixed together?

Hawkmoon.5849:

Please tell me you’re joking, GregT. I left Rift by Trion for GW2, and I often wonder if I’ve made a good decision. The content releases here are largely untested, hence the massive amount of bugs and glitches we see regularly. This was nearly a non-issue for Rift, which used a Test Shard, and weeks of player feedback to weed out bugs and implement fixes that worked. This equals near bug-free content when everything goes live. This also gave players time to review upcoming changes and give feedback to the Devs.

The development team is on the forums daily, answering questions about mechanics, upcoming changes, and general fixes in the pipeline. There’s no “PR speak” like we get here; there’s just Devs being open about what’s up.

And how can you “ignore” Lost Shores when it’s a shining example of just how badly the ball has been dropped here?

Don’t get me wrong: I’m not raging, I’m not leaving GW2, and I want this game to succeed… but the amount of errors we’re seeing from ANet since release is, in my opinion, staggering. I’m really hoping they can recover before the playerbase gives up on them.

I honestly dont think its a question of testing, I think its a question of load The problem with Lost shores, or specifically the one time events is they focus everyone on one physical server that creates massive loads that can in turn create issues that testing will not find but for them the issues would not replicate! let me expand on what I mean.

take the missing NPCs. These were designed to turn hostile, players attack them and when they get them near death they’d revert to friendly! Its quite possible that when a huge number of people attack them at the same time one of two things happens: in a single instant so much damage is dealth that more damage then the treshold is dealt and the NPC actually dies. Or its possible that because of the overwhelming amount of combat going on, the server slows down and the script monitoring damage aquired before turning friendly again gets delayed due to load just enough for the NPC to die before it kicks in! In testing due to smaller numbers that issue wouldnt occure! Of course this is not to say there is nothing to be done about it, the NPC if my theory is correct could have had a script that respawns him should that happen ! I am sure if this is the case it would be something they think of next time they design such an event, learning from experiance! etc…

Rift is an excellent game, one I liked playing as well ! but their world events where never as much popular as what you see in gw2, I started late and never got deep into end game so appologies if that something that would have eventually happen but I never been in combat with 100s of players at the same time, It was always less then 50! that makes a huge difference! beyond that rift is not action combat, thats something that I have no doubt causes a lot more load! Dont get me wrong, not trying to take away any of the credit rift deserves, its an awesome game with virtually no technical issues! Just saying Gw2 faces different challenges and a comparison with the two isnt necessarily fair!

My fear is there will be no realistic way how to address the load issue in these one time events which might force arenanet to simply abandon the idea due to that! I hope not cause I really love the idea behind them though

Amadan.9451:

i think the problem with purchasable gold is: i have money to buy on tp whatever crafting mats (precursor, named etc. etc) i need for the new stat increasing shiny before non paying people would do with the normal grind wars2.

or i think this is the issue most people have in mind about gems/gold trading

i play since the 1st of october and as far as i checked (not to often i must say) i saw only the cost of 1 gem in gold increase and never the other way around… which means if we want to address an issue here: i’d rather not to spend my hard earned gold for let’s say a new bank slot even if i really need it, but i can always buy gems and become rich and also with a larger bank (note with a new contents come a lots of things that stacks just in the bank… even if there is a different way for the same kind of items to stack… ie. candy corn, shattering skulls, passiflora, karka shells etc, they are crafting mats, but if you want to keep it you have to use bank slots, which means if i want to keep it i have to buy bank slots or destroy/selling other items… there are a lot of dungeon currencies that cannot be walleted anywhere so you have to use bank slots… and each dungeon has its currencies… a lot of space used, then there is the pvp tickets, the badge of honor, the rare mats like lodestones and we could use some free space either, for cosmetics, boosts etc etc…. are we or are we not pushed in that direction someway? at least with bank which is the only problem i have until now?)

so as far as i am concerned i don’t care about gold, about grind, about farm, but sometimes it pops in my mind:

i don’t play gw1 since 2 years now… but i know if i want to play it, my gears are still max stats, and my characters are still competitive with players playing all the time (except they are good at play and i’m not anyway)… would this be happening in gw2?

if the answer is yes, i’ll take a deep breath, go on with my slow farmville gameplay (which i keep slow because i don’t want to reduce fun with a full time online farmer job), i’ll keep fighting jormag, run events, occasionally dungeons, wvwvw and maybe even a spvp (i already have one slot in that infamous bank for tickets i’ll never use) and no one will ask me to be fully ascended to play…
if the answer is no…. that keeps me far away from new content, or party play and there are only 3 solution to the problem:
1 i grind the fun out of the game
2 i buy gold from gems
3 i invoke the release of elder scroll on line hoping i won’t have the same problem (which is unlikely because no one seems to be able to think out of the grindbox)

Now this I totally agree with ! the storage problem is probably better addressed by buying a new character slot though. that gives you up to 100 new slots! should be plenty to store all that you mention!

but yes I agree with you! a lot of how good / bad this is will hinge on how effective not having the best gear will be down the line! kinda hard to tell right now!

@ Galen Grey… Thanks for the response. I’m a little stumped by your assumption that the Lost Shores/FoTM/vertical progression/Ascended Gear etc. are the source of my growing disillusionment with GW2. Could I suggest you check out my previous posts via my forum profile for the real reasons. Some of which actually go back to Oct. 7th. A date familiar to many Ranger players.

I agree with OP’s post.

Snores.7806:

Which AAA MMO have you participated in for the last 5 tears has given you “long term enjoyment” ? Swtor ? DCUO ? LotRO ? AoC? WAR ?

I can’t name a single one apart from WoW and EVE, and they’ve been going for 10 yrs. MMO companies have discovered that the easy bucks are based around hype and a quick turnaround

WoW just hit 8 years old a couple weeks ago. Not that I imagine you care since this was from days ago, but oh well.

Personally City of Heroes provided me with about 8+ years of enjoyment and would likely have continued to do so if not for the unfortunate closure. The original Guild Wars was always a fun game to go putter about in now and again too.

Amadan.9451:

i think the problem with purchasable gold is: i have money to buy on tp whatever crafting mats (precursor, named etc. etc) i need for the new stat increasing shiny before non paying people would do with the normal grind wars2.

or i think this is the issue most people have in mind about gems/gold trading

i play since the 1st of october and as far as i checked (not to often i must say) i saw only the cost of 1 gem in gold increase and never the other way around… which means if we want to address an issue here: i’d rather not to spend my hard earned gold for let’s say a new bank slot even if i really need it, but i can always buy gems and become rich and also with a larger bank (note with a new contents come a lots of things that stacks just in the bank… even if there is a different way for the same kind of items to stack… ie. candy corn, shattering skulls, passiflora, karka shells etc, they are crafting mats, but if you want to keep it you have to use bank slots, which means if i want to keep it i have to buy bank slots or destroy/selling other items… there are a lot of dungeon currencies that cannot be walleted anywhere so you have to use bank slots… and each dungeon has its currencies… a lot of space used, then there is the pvp tickets, the badge of honor, the rare mats like lodestones and we could use some free space either, for cosmetics, boosts etc etc…. are we or are we not pushed in that direction someway? at least with bank which is the only problem i have until now?)

so as far as i am concerned i don’t care about gold, about grind, about farm, but sometimes it pops in my mind:

i don’t play gw1 since 2 years now… but i know if i want to play it, my gears are still max stats, and my characters are still competitive with players playing all the time (except they are good at play and i’m not anyway)… would this be happening in gw2?

if the answer is yes, i’ll take a deep breath, go on with my slow farmville gameplay (which i keep slow because i don’t want to reduce fun with a full time online farmer job), i’ll keep fighting jormag, run events, occasionally dungeons, wvwvw and maybe even a spvp (i already have one slot in that infamous bank for tickets i’ll never use) and no one will ask me to be fully ascended to play…
if the answer is no…. that keeps me far away from new content, or party play and there are only 3 solution to the problem:
1 i grind the fun out of the game
2 i buy gold from gems
3 i invoke the release of elder scroll on line hoping i won’t have the same problem (which is unlikely because no one seems to be able to think out of the grindbox)

Very well said, I agree on everything. Bank space is a problem. Vertical progression is a problem.

I’m sorry, but the answer to your question is “no”.
Also, sadly, ESO will have vertical progression too. I’ll try it anyway ’cause its RvR seems pretty interesting.