Guild Wars 2

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

Vayne.8563:

@munkiman.3068

The second part of what you’d said really has nothing to do with this topic though. The trait system has nothing to do with this topic. People’s dissatisfaction with other things…nothing to do with this topic.

The topic is the new rewards, and why some people dislike them. When my wife is yelling about something, very often she’s mad about something else completely. But she’s not yelling about what she’s mad about. She’s just mad and anything that I do at that point will end up earning her ire. This is how the game is. People are mad at all sorts of things, so they take it out on everything, even things that aren’t really that bad. There’s this sort of mob ready to pounce mentality.

The only real issue I take here though is your “moral” judgement. You think Anet added log in dailies to show higher numbers to management. I’m relatively certain that’s not how it works. It’s far more basic than that.

Stores put stuff in ads to get people into the store. If people don’t come in, people don’t buy. If people don’t buy the store goes out of business. So we run sales, promotions, limited time stuff…we advertise.

Anet is trying to get people to log in, because once they log in, something might catch their interest. Sure a bunch of people will log in and log out and those people aren’t helping the game. There’s no mystical number here that Anet is trying to meet. NcSoft surely doesn’t care about how many people log in. They care about profit. If the profit isn’t enough, it won’t matter if a zillion people log in. They still have a business to run which takes income.

And you can’t have income if people don’t come in. And some of those people will come in and find something cool, or interesting and start playing. And maybe they’ll meet someone they enjoy hanging out with and they’ll come back. Maybe they’ll run into a cool guild, which can make the game fun again.

Because if people aren’t logging in, then they can’t be enticed to stay awhile and perhaps spend money. In fact, even if they never spend money, but they continue to log in, they’re a boon to the game. Some of those people will buy gems with gold, which encourages others to buy gems to sell.

But it’s not just about making the numbers look good. All this really is is an attempt to get people through the door. What they do after that is as individual as the person. But you can’t make sales if you don’t have customers. It’s something all businesses do.

You went off on the tangent first, i was replying. Regardless, this is actually very on topic as to why i have an issue with these changes. Does lipstick on a pig help?

That’s what this and many other changes in the past represent, it’s trying to solve for something (player retention, getting people to login and/or metrics). You may take issue with the possibility that this move was to improve login numbers, but i don’t, i’ve seen it before. A game is losing sales, the publisher/investors want to know what you are going to do about it, they implement a system that at least reflects better numbers and buys more time. In your shop scenario, your promotion ideas are things we see regularly anyway, but this is very different, it’s also been proven time and again that giving away goods doesn’t improve sales, it’s marketing 101. I apparently hit a nerve, i apologize. But that’s what bugs me about login rewards, like it or not. It shady, it only makes sense, at least to me, as a last ditch effort to get people to notice how cool my shop is, so buy stuff!

All of that aside even moreso, they simply are not addressing some of the core problems, i’ve said this in the CDI too, the latest guild one. They ARE in fact funneling players to one of the biggest, most frustrating flaws of the game engine. Making world boss events part of the daily is proof enough of that. I cannot even count how many have simply given up doing them post megaserver, because either their machine can’t handle it or because it’s completely unplayable, yet Arena keeps doing it, over and over. Makes you wonder if they play their own game at all sometimes. Players have literally given up on the game and simply don’t bother with feedback, in their mind this is an issue Arena needs to solve, not them, they play a game for entertainment or for escape or for… When players are frustrated at the changes they do make (this one daily change is basically ok with me, mostly), it touches on your “wife is upset” scenario. You personally try and quell that by trying to be rational, yet your not the one upset, and actually making things worse. I’m simply pointing out what you did 2 years ago that kittened her off so bad, but it’s too late she’s already left you.

Manasa Devi.7958:

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

First of all, “we” didn’t have that before. Maybe you did because you just wandered around open world, but what was that thing you said about generalizing you’re experiences? There are many people who enjoy wvw, pvp, fractals, etc. Those things do have inherent appeal, even if it’s not to you.

And I still don’t understand how harvesting plants, visiting Laurel vendors, dodging in front of an enemy over and over again, killing ambients, or any of the other trivially easy and not particularly interesting dailies before are any different from the ones you consider pet tricks now.

munkiman.3068:

Making world boss events part of the daily is proof enough of that. I cannot even count how many have simply given up doing them post megaserver, because either their machine can’t handle it or because it’s completely unplayable

Count me as one of them. Ever since the megaserver update, I’ve stopped doing world bosses, except when coming acrokittenandomly or being asked to join for one by a guildie, which is a rare occurrence. Oh, and I’ve done Tequatl a few times recently to get me a spoon. Dailies aren’t bringing me back, they only remind me of how much I don’t like the whole world boss schedule revamp.

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

So, post about your own experiences. Don’t falsely attribute them to other posters who have clearly stated their own experiences repeatedly. Arguing in bad faith isn’t helping anyone.

Have you noticed that pvp players haven’t complained? Neither have wvw players? Ap hunters? This isn’t just my experience, it’s the experience for most of the play styles. Easy, accessible dailies with greater rewards is a benefit to everyone.

It’s pretty obvious that a.net’s goal with the new dailies is to move players around to under utilized content, and they’ve done it in a way such that the incentive to move around is there, but if you don’t want to, you’re not forced to as all but the ap reward has been moved to the login reward.

My question to you is this: what is intrinsically wrong with being expected to go out of your way for a reward?

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

Not disagreeing with the “why” at all, i actually have no idea what the brainstorm meeting looked like that led us here. But i can tell you the outcome isn’t really all that great. I don’t mind change, not at all, but this change, the fine tuning of earning AP for doing very specific content, literally makes me not want to bother.

Then again i have greater issues with the game that keep me from playing all that much.

Subdue.5479:

I prefer to spend my limited okay time dungeoning. Most of the dailies indeed require me to go out of my way…

I wasn’t saying the old dailies were great for all play styles — they were pretty scant for other than casual PVE. I’d totally support new options.

I just never understand why ANet has to rip out the old options when making changes. What dailies use to do for me — they don’t do anymore. I realize they work better now for others, but I bet that could have been accomplished without trashing my option.

Same with traits, same with greatest fear. Why does ANet feel compelled to slash and burn?

Mr Snotty Pants.3980:

Subdue.5479:

I prefer to spend my limited okay time dungeoning. Most of the dailies indeed require me to go out of my way…

I wasn’t saying the old dailies were great for all play styles — they were pretty scant for other than casual PVE. I’d totally support new options.

I just never understand why ANet has to rip out the old options when making changes. What dailies use to do for me — they don’t do anymore. I realize they work better now for others, but I bet that could have been accomplished without trashing my option.

Same with traits, same with greatest fear. Why does ANet feel compelled to slash and burn?

The generic options were likely removed because a.net wanted to use the dailies to move people around to under utilized content.

Realistically though, it’s the login reward that replaced the old dailies, not the current dailies themselves. A.net could likely have avoided much of this backlash if they had renamed the systems appropriately.

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

First of all, “we” didn’t have that before. Maybe you did because you just wandered around open world, but what was that thing you said about generalizing you’re experiences? There are many people who enjoy wvw, pvp, fractals, etc. Those things do have inherent appeal, even if it’s not to you.

And I still don’t understand how harvesting plants, visiting Laurel vendors, dodging in front of an enemy over and over again, killing ambients, or any of the other trivially easy and not particularly interesting dailies before are any different from the ones you consider pet tricks now.

Consider this… It was a natural thing. I can’t speak for everyone, but just playing gave you the AP. I could do 1 or all 12, now it’s a 3 or nothing deal. Today i don’t want to play WvW and i can’t be around for X world boss, or fit time into doing Ascalon events for 20 minutes (yes i know, sometimes it only takes 5). I’m now stuck, i can’t even earn 1 AP for doing one daily. Or maybe i can do 3 things on the old list (general), least i’d get 3 AP. Now i get none, period, meaning it was a general thing not how it is now.

Personally, even as an AP hunter, with “some” time to spare, i really am not interested in viewing vista A for the 15th time. I get they had to throw cheese in for the cracker, but come on, you can’t possibly not think this isn’t jumping through hoops, can you? What does it solve? I’d love to know what you actually think viewing a vista actually does for the good of the game?

Most of this is “cheese”, it’s trying to solve a much bigger problem, it’s tossing a bone to people that actually login and play, without trying to make it blatantly obvious. I mean don’t people feel cheap to get rewarded for just logging in? Seriously, any game in the past that did that, was “desperate” and failed within months. I’ve been here before, it actually makes me sick to think of the level this game has dropped too.

I literally hate to point at this and say anything, but I LOVE ARENA and THIS GAME, but kitten they keep making it harder and harder to WANT to PLAY IT.

Mr Snotty Pants.3980:

Subdue.5479:

You previously had to do 5 dailies.
The old dailies were easy.
You received 5 ap for doing 5 dailies.
You now only need to do 3 dailies.
The new dailies are easy.
You now get 10 ap for doing 3 dailies.

The old dailies were mostly general. You did them as you played. They might divert you down a slightly different path, like you might actually do that jumping puzzle you’d otherwise skip, but they were easy to incorporate into your play.

The new dailies are specific. They are quick, easy tasks you clear before you start playing. They feel like stupid old NPC delivery quests to get your daily hamster pellet.

Big difference.

I had to (if I wanted the associated rewards) go out of my way to complete the dailies in the old system to a greater degree than is the case in the new system.

Now I need spend no time on dailies at all in order to get some of the old daily rewards and less to get the rest.

Don’t like pushing event zergs into starter zones though.

munkiman.3068:

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

First of all, “we” didn’t have that before. Maybe you did because you just wandered around open world, but what was that thing you said about generalizing you’re experiences? There are many people who enjoy wvw, pvp, fractals, etc. Those things do have inherent appeal, even if it’s not to you.

And I still don’t understand how harvesting plants, visiting Laurel vendors, dodging in front of an enemy over and over again, killing ambients, or any of the other trivially easy and not particularly interesting dailies before are any different from the ones you consider pet tricks now.

Consider this… It was a natural thing. I can’t speak for everyone, but just playing gave you the AP. I could do 1 or all 12, now it’s a 3 or nothing deal. Today i don’t want to play WvW and i can’t be around for X world boss, or fit time into doing Ascalon events for 20 minutes (yes i know, sometimes it only takes 5). I’m now stuck, i can’t even earn 1 AP for doing one daily. Or maybe i can do 3 things on the old list (general), least i’d get 3 AP. Now i get none, period, meaning it was a general thing not how it is now.

Personally, even as an AP hunter, with “some” time to spare, i really am not interested in viewing vista A for the 15th time. I get they had to throw cheese in for the cracker, but come on, you can’t possibly not think this isn’t jumping through hoops, can you? What does it solve? I’d love to know what you actually think viewing a vista actually does for the good of the game?

Most of this is “cheese”, it’s trying to solve a much bigger problem, it’s tossing a bone to people that actually login and play, without trying to make it blatantly obvious. I mean don’t people feel cheap to get rewarded for just logging in? Seriously, any game in the past that did that, was “desperate” and failed within months. I’ve been here before, it actually makes me sick to think of the level this game has dropped too.

I literally hate to point at this and say anything, but I LOVE ARENA and THIS GAME, but kitten they keep making it harder and harder to WANT to PLAY IT.

How in the same post do you argue in favor of dailies that just happen to you and then argue against login rewards? How is receiving the reward at login and then going off to do your own thing worse for you than logging on, doing your own thing, and eventually having the reward happen to you?

The pve dailies are way too easy(pve open world has no challenge). Achievements used to be about challenging yourself. not a checklist to do. Spvp dailies now are great because they present a challenge if you do not know how to play a certain profession. WvW achievements are so-so because WvW is very limiting in what can be made into an achievement.

The old system was so easy too, (kill 50 mobs,,,,, or kill 50 moas if you wanted lol) VERY BORING!

This new system for the PvE side is better , but not harder or much different.

I like the change because it can be completed in 2 seconds. Daily achievements for video games should mean guiding the player to something they wouldn’t normally do every day. I like the new harvest achievements because it gives me wood, ore, or food that I wouldn’t normally get.

There should not be an achievement for using a vista however. It should be changed to killing veteran mobs or something.

You should not be getting any AP for just doing anything like killing 50 mobs, or dodging 20 times. That takes no skill and is not specific. The older system where you had to kill a specific race was better IMO. It made you go somewhere.

I guess babies want to stay in their champ train all day and get AP for no reason.

Subdue.5479:

munkiman.3068:

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

First of all, “we” didn’t have that before. Maybe you did because you just wandered around open world, but what was that thing you said about generalizing you’re experiences? There are many people who enjoy wvw, pvp, fractals, etc. Those things do have inherent appeal, even if it’s not to you.

And I still don’t understand how harvesting plants, visiting Laurel vendors, dodging in front of an enemy over and over again, killing ambients, or any of the other trivially easy and not particularly interesting dailies before are any different from the ones you consider pet tricks now.

Consider this… It was a natural thing. I can’t speak for everyone, but just playing gave you the AP. I could do 1 or all 12, now it’s a 3 or nothing deal. Today i don’t want to play WvW and i can’t be around for X world boss, or fit time into doing Ascalon events for 20 minutes (yes i know, sometimes it only takes 5). I’m now stuck, i can’t even earn 1 AP for doing one daily. Or maybe i can do 3 things on the old list (general), least i’d get 3 AP. Now i get none, period, meaning it was a general thing not how it is now.

Personally, even as an AP hunter, with “some” time to spare, i really am not interested in viewing vista A for the 15th time. I get they had to throw cheese in for the cracker, but come on, you can’t possibly not think this isn’t jumping through hoops, can you? What does it solve? I’d love to know what you actually think viewing a vista actually does for the good of the game?

Most of this is “cheese”, it’s trying to solve a much bigger problem, it’s tossing a bone to people that actually login and play, without trying to make it blatantly obvious. I mean don’t people feel cheap to get rewarded for just logging in? Seriously, any game in the past that did that, was “desperate” and failed within months. I’ve been here before, it actually makes me sick to think of the level this game has dropped too.

I literally hate to point at this and say anything, but I LOVE ARENA and THIS GAME, but kitten they keep making it harder and harder to WANT to PLAY IT.

How in the same post do you argue in favor of dailies that just happen to you and then argue against login rewards? How is receiving the reward at login and then going off to do your own thing worse for you than logging on, doing your own thing, and eventually having the reward happen to you?

I’m actually not arguing in favor of dailies, i personally don’t have issue with them other than limiting how you earn them, I’ve said it numerous times. I’m not a fan of the limits placed on them, in favor of this system.

I’ve also said login rewards feel cheap.

I was quite happy with the old (last version) system, it’s been revamped numerous times to a place i though seemed acceptable. It fit both the earned and the casual play rewards rather well. I could just play and earn my AP, either 1-12 depending on how far or how much time i had to dedicate. How is that odd to you? How is earning nothing in AP versus earning 2 or 3 or 5 AP a foreign concept?

They fixed nothing, least for me, they made it worse. Actually i’ve yet to see a valid complaint about the old system. It worked, sure people would come here and say how it was worse than the previous version, but this is again, a change that really didn’t need to be made, not from a player perspective. It did exactly what you’d expect, it rewarded all the goods for just playing the kitten game.

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

First of all, “we” didn’t have that before. Maybe you did because you just wandered around open world, but what was that thing you said about generalizing you’re experiences?

You’re right, my mistake.

Subdue.5479:

There are many people who enjoy wvw, pvp, fractals, etc. Those things do have inherent appeal, even if it’s not to you.

Those are old dailies. I’m talking about the new ones.

Subdue.5479:

And I still don’t understand how harvesting plants, visiting Laurel vendors, dodging in front of an enemy over and over again, killing ambients, or any of the other trivially easy and not particularly interesting dailies before are any different from the ones you consider pet tricks now.

I never called any of those dailies interesting, just painless. I always used to harvest interesting resources I came across. The laurel vendor was painless because there’s one not 2 seconds removed from a place I visit anyway. I never dodge in front of an enemy again and again. Are you kidding? Dodging just happens over the course of play, painlessly. Killing ambients? Yeah, got me there. Stupid. I didn’t always complete it because I didn’t go out of my way to find them. Sometimes I stumbled across enough to add up to complete the achievement and then I got it painlessly.

None of the new ones are painless. They require time and effort and actually impede regular gameplay for me. The fact that literally all the painless ones have been removed and replaced with stupid pet tricks actually feels like an act of malice. Couldn’t just let us play, could they? They had to make it worse.

munkiman.3068:

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. Now I can’t help wondering if that’s because it would lay bare a hypocrisy people don’t want to own up to.

The reverse scenario would certainly relieve me of the issues I have with this update.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

The effort required for the reward should be interesting, not a list of stupid pet tricks. They should make me want to play, not make me do things that have no inherent appeal, like standing on a roof in the Black Citadel. They shouldn’t make me feel like a dog doing stupid tricks for a few treats. If they can’t make dailies like that, I’ll settle for dailies that get completed without special effort at all, like we had before.

Edit: And by the way, WvWers and PvPers have complained.

First of all, “we” didn’t have that before. Maybe you did because you just wandered around open world, but what was that thing you said about generalizing you’re experiences?

You’re right, my mistake.

Subdue.5479:

There are many people who enjoy wvw, pvp, fractals, etc. Those things do have inherent appeal, even if it’s not to you.

Those are old dailies. I’m talking about the new ones.

Subdue.5479:

And I still don’t understand how harvesting plants, visiting Laurel vendors, dodging in front of an enemy over and over again, killing ambients, or any of the other trivially easy and not particularly interesting dailies before are any different from the ones you consider pet tricks now.

I never called any of those dailies interesting, just painless. I always used to harvest interesting resources I came across. The laurel vendor was painless because there’s one not 2 seconds removed from a place I visit anyway. I never dodge in front of an enemy again and again. Are you kidding? Dodging just happens over the course of play, painlessly. Killing ambients? Yeah, got me there. Stupid. I didn’t always complete it because I didn’t go out of my way to find them. Sometimes I stumbled across enough to add up to complete the achievement and then I got it painlessly.

None of the new ones are painless. They require time and effort and actually impede regular gameplay for me. The fact that literally all the painless ones have been removed and replaced with stupid pet tricks actually feels like an act of malice. Couldn’t just let us play, could they? They had to make it worse.

Do you honestly believe this is a thing? Daily dodger? I mean come on are you not dodging? Maybe this is why things have gotten more specific? Wow, i got this within 2 to maybe 3 minutes of playing the game. Over and over, really, is this not part of your regular play? Cause quite seriously Arena has failed as a company to delivery to you the dodge mechanic.

Manasa Devi.7958:

munkiman.3068:

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. Now I can’t help wondering if that’s because it would lay bare a hypocrisy people don’t want to own up to.

The reverse scenario would certainly relieve me of the issues I have with this update.

It wouldn’t for me, i actually “think” i know the underlying issues. But, so much for me, whee! The basic problems are the same since release. But, you know, people love to see login number (not going to post videos) but we all know how Arena loves to be the fastest selling MMO of all time. It’s a fact they cling on too.

Manasa Devi.7958:

munkiman.3068:

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. Now I can’t help wondering if that’s because it would lay bare a hypocrisy people don’t want to own up to.

The reverse scenario would certainly relieve me of the issues I have with this update.

That was a good point, and i hope people that are totally ok with the change take into account. Granted this isn’t what we have, but it says a lot about change in general. Many people just pass it off as “change is dumb” or “i don’t like change”. While they are poor arguments, i think most of us think change is good, if it benefits the game. While some of us think this is actually detrimental changes that make the game, blah.

Log in numbers are the holy grail for all online content.

Any way while I have no problem with any of the massive game changes since April (excluding traits, which I abhor) my concern is that trying to force people to do things that they don’t wish to do, will be a disaster.

I don’t like the new dailies and I really don’t like the narrowing/gating/grinding philosophy that seems to have slowly taken over implementation of everything in this game.

It IS harder to achieve the dailies now in pve unless you are prepared to have your characters all sitting in the different zones waiting for the specific zone type daily that now comes up every day, ive spent 15 minutes scouring an area for the right resources, of course you could just cave in as I have and start doing pvp, im sure people like me are making their pvp metrics for this month look fab – but I don’t like pvp, im no good at it and to avoid upsetting the regular players I do a farm instance that isn’t even pvp – its full of muppets like me trying to complete the dailies.

Manasa Devi.7958:

munkiman.3068:

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. Now I can’t help wondering if that’s because it would lay bare a hypocrisy people don’t want to own up to.

The reverse scenario would certainly relieve me of the issues I have with this update.

I’m still thinking about it, but first thoughts on it?

I wouldn’t care any more about it than I do now. “Oh, they did what? Meh.”

. . . remember, I already stated I’m pretty good on the stuff which would be locked or was locked behind Daily Achievements. And I’m also not a big chaser of AP. Achievements, sort of (freaking Dive Master… one dive other than Not So Secret and I don’t know which one it is.) . . . but the AP doesn’t really MATTER to me.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Manasa Devi.7958:

munkiman.3068:

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. Now I can’t help wondering if that’s because it would lay bare a hypocrisy people don’t want to own up to.

The reverse scenario would certainly relieve me of the issues I have with this update.

I’m still thinking about it, but first thoughts on it?

I wouldn’t care any more about it than I do now. “Oh, they did what? Meh.”

. . . remember, I already stated I’m pretty good on the stuff which would be locked or was locked behind Daily Achievements. And I’m also not a big chaser of AP. Achievements, sort of (freaking Dive Master… one dive other than Not So Secret and I don’t know which one it is.) . . . but the AP doesn’t really MATTER to me.

Well, unless I’ve misread you terribly, you’ve been very middle-of-the-road about the entire subject anyway, so I wouldn’t expect a different reaction.

Here’s the reason it would work for me, which I didn’t really have time to get into earlier. I don’t need or particularly want any of what’s on offer for the daily log in rewards. There aren’t any permanent AP opportunities left for me that I see myself ever going after, and I do like to see my AP grow over time for the AP rewards some of which I like.

With the rewards reversed, I’d get some AP for loging in, which would be nice, and if I ever felt I’d want some more laurels or some of that other stuff now awarded on log in, I’d have the option to do some dailies. Totally self-serving, sure. Unashamedly so.

Manasa Devi.7958:

…
I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. …

I’d hate it even more than these new dailies.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Manasa Devi.7958:

munkiman.3068:

I’m an AP hunter (not extreme, but i don’t need more laurels, till they do more with em). Someone earlier posted something about them being switched, getting AP for logins and only getting the goods when you complete your dailies. I thought that was interesting.

I asked how people would feel about that reversal. No one answered. Now I can’t help wondering if that’s because it would lay bare a hypocrisy people don’t want to own up to.

The reverse scenario would certainly relieve me of the issues I have with this update.

I’m still thinking about it, but first thoughts on it?

I wouldn’t care any more about it than I do now. “Oh, they did what? Meh.”

. . . remember, I already stated I’m pretty good on the stuff which would be locked or was locked behind Daily Achievements. And I’m also not a big chaser of AP. Achievements, sort of (freaking Dive Master… one dive other than Not So Secret and I don’t know which one it is.) . . . but the AP doesn’t really MATTER to me.

I think that’s a totally fair assessment Tobias. I think most of your post are, fair. That’s really all i have to say. Just thought i’d throw that our there into the ether.

Laurels are a time gated currency. Ap is not. It makes no sense to exchange the system. You will never be able to “make up” a laurel that you missed, weigh is not the case for ap. You also don’t spend ap, like you so laurels.

Subdue.5479:

Laurels are a time gated currency. Ap is not. It makes no sense to exchange the system. You will never be able to “make up” a laurel that you missed, weigh is not the case for ap. You also don’t spend ap, like you so laurels.

AP is also time-gated. I don’t know how you could ever think it isn’t. Also, you can “make up” on a laurel that you missed exactly like you make up when you miss out on daily AP: log in another day. It doesn’t matter whether or not one is a currency and the other isn’t, both add up to give you access to other things.

Besides, if you consider AP to not be time-gated, you will have to conclude that laurels also aren’t time gated, because gaining AP will give you laurels.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

Laurels are a time gated currency. Ap is not. It makes no sense to exchange the system. You will never be able to “make up” a laurel that you missed, weigh is not the case for ap. You also don’t spend ap, like you so laurels.

AP is also time-gated. I don’t know how you could ever think it isn’t. Also, you can “make up” on a laurel that you missed exactly like you miss out on daily AP. It doesn’t matter whether or not one is a currency and the other isn’t, both add up to give you access to other things.

Besides, if you consider AP to not be time-gated, you will have to conclude that laurels also aren’t time gated, because gaining AP will give you laurels.

Bob and Gerry each log in every day and do their dailies. One day, Bob gets sick and doesn’t show up, so Gerry goes on without him. The next day, and every day after, they go on to do the dailies together again. Bob will always have one laurel less than Gerry, but eventually Gerry will hit the Ap cap on dailies and Bob will catch up to him.

Perhaps time gated was the wrong word there, but then again ap is not even a currency, so it’s odd that you would get focused on the time gated issue.

That doesn’t mean it’s not time-gated. If you can only progess ‘x’ per unit of time toward a given goal, you’re looking at a time gate, even if the goal is a finite number instead of an infinite. It might take Bob up to over 4.5 years to catch up depending on at what point they went out of synch. That has to be the worst kitten time gate ever.

Being capped is a whole other thing that doesn’t have anything to do with time-gating at all.

Manasa Devi.7958:

That doesn’t mean it’s not time-gated. If you can only progess ‘x’ per unit of time toward a given goal, you’re looking at a time gate, even if the goal is a finite number instead of an infinite. It might take Bob up to over 4.5 years to catch up depending on at what point they went out of synch. That has to be the worst kitten time gate ever.

Being capped is a whole other thing that doesn’t have anything to do with time-gating at all.

Like I said, probably the wrong term. Still, you are focusing on semantics rather than the actual explanation for why it would not make sense to switch the two.

Subdue.5479:

Perhaps time gated was the wrong word there, but then again ap is not even a currency, so it’s odd that you would get focused on the time gated issue.

I didn’t focus on that. I also addressed the “not a currency” point. It was you who focused on the time-gating by mentioning it in the first place and getting all defensive about it with a scenario that proved nothing.

It’s odd that you fault me for the things you write. Really odd.

Like I said, probably the wrong term. Still, you are focusing on semantics rather than the actual explanation for why it would not make sense to switch the two.

That explanation you gave makes no sense.

We could get AP and laurels before the recent update, and we could still get both in the actual situation we’re in now as well as in my hypothetical situation. People who logged in and did their dailies all week would have the exact same rewards in my hypothetical situation as they actually got in the real situation. The only difference in the hypothetical scenario is that people can prioritize things differently.

I can only conclude that you’re not being rational about it.

You can’t catch up in laurels because laurels are uncapped. A Laurel you earn today will never make up for a laurel you missed yesterday. This is in complete contrast to daily ap which is capped.

Subdue.5479:

You can’t catch up in laurels because laurels are uncapped. A Laurel you earn today will never make up for a laurel you missed yesterday. This is in complete contrast to daily ap which is capped.

And why is that bad?

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

You can’t catch up in laurels because laurels are uncapped. A Laurel you earn today will never make up for a laurel you missed yesterday. This is in complete contrast to daily ap which is capped.

And why is that bad?

It’s not bad. What would be bad is the two were switched. Right now, if you decide to skip a day of dailies, it just means it will take you a day longer to each the cap. If it were laurels that you had to earn, and you skipped a day, you will have permanently lost that laurel.

You wouldn’t lose the laurel, that’s nonsense, because you never had it. You didn’t earn it.

And also, you’ve just shown exactly the kind of hypocrisy that I tried to lay bare with my hypothetical alternate reward question. You value laurels more than AP, so you’re fine with the current system and think the reverse would be bad.

In the current situation you still need to log in for your free laurels, which you would also need to do in the hypothetical situation, obviously, because you can’t do the dailies that would award the laurels without logging in, right?

If you’re logging in for laurels in the current situation anyway, nothing would be stopping you from also logging in in the hypothetical scenario. And if you’re logging in anyway, what’s stopping you from doing the dailies? They only take 5-10 minutes, right? “If you want your laurels, earn them, you want everything for free?” That’s what the forum would be like.

Are you just playing dumb or do you really not see the difference between a fixed goal and an open ended currency?

Of course there’s a difference, duh… I’m just not assuming like you seem to do that everyone cares about the “open ended currency” as much as you do. I for one don’t.

If things were reversed, and people cared, they’d still get both at the same rate as they do now. You can see that, right?

The only practical difference would be that the ‘laurel lovers’ would be the ones who had to do the legwork. If that would be a problem for laurels, why is it not a problem right now for someone who for reasons of his own has decided he needs to max his AP as quickly as he can? People set their own priorities, you don’t get to set them for everyone else.

Edit: And you’re really overselling the “open ended currency” thing. Anything you could do today if you got your laurel, you can do tomorrow if you missed today. That is not a big deal at all.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Of course there’s a difference, duh… I’m just not assuming like you seem to do that everyone cares about the “open ended currency” as much as you do. I for one don’t.

If things were reversed, and people cared, they’d still get both at the same rate as they do now. You can see that, right?

The only practical difference would be that the ‘laurel lovers’ would be the ones who had to do the legwork. If that would be a problem for laurels, why isn’kitten problem now for someone who for reasons of his own has decided he needs to max his AP as quickly as he can? People set their own priorities, you don’t get to set them for everyone else.

Whether or not everyone understands or cares about the difference does not change that the difference is there, and is a logical reason why switching the two would not be a good idea.

While the rate would be the same, assuming they were doing both every day, the choice is not. You can choose to skip a day of ap and just take a day longer to finish.

It’s easier to think of this in terms of a fixed period of time. Let’s say you can earn 100 apples year, at a rate of at most one apple a day. You can choose to skip earning your apple 265 times without being any worse off.

On the other hand, if there is no cap, you can earn 365 apples in one year, but each day you choose to skip leaves you with one less apple for that year.

Because of the cap on how many apples you can earn in one year, the first option does not leave you worse off by choosing to skip a few days.

Edit: Also, just a clarification: I’m doing the dailies every day, and even have a post here tracking how long it takes me each day. Switching ap and laurel would not directly affect me. I’m just pointing out why logically it would not work.

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

You can’t catch up in laurels because laurels are uncapped. A Laurel you earn today will never make up for a laurel you missed yesterday. This is in complete contrast to daily ap which is capped.

And why is that bad?

It’s not bad. What would be bad is the two were switched. Right now, if you decide to skip a day of dailies, it just means it will take you a day longer to each the cap. If it were laurels that you had to earn, and you skipped a day, you will have permanently lost that laurel.

256 laurels is cap. i Could be wrong on this, but i had 256 and couldn’t get anymore so i spent them on rings/mats. But, maybe they fixed it? I dunno, but it was capped or at least i thought is was at 256. Doesn’t matter though, not the point. Maybe you seem to keep missing?

It’s a choice limiter, period, that’s really all it is. End of story?

munkiman.3068:

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

You can’t catch up in laurels because laurels are uncapped. A Laurel you earn today will never make up for a laurel you missed yesterday. This is in complete contrast to daily ap which is capped.

And why is that bad?

It’s not bad. What would be bad is the two were switched. Right now, if you decide to skip a day of dailies, it just means it will take you a day longer to each the cap. If it were laurels that you had to earn, and you skipped a day, you will have permanently lost that laurel.

256 laurels is cap. i Could be wrong on this, but i had 256 and couldn’t get anymore so i spent them on rings/mats. But, maybe they fixed it? I dunno, but it was capped or at least i thought is was at 256. Doesn’t matter though, not the point. Maybe you seem to keep missing?

It’s a choice limiter, period, that’s really all it is. End of story?

I’ve never heard of such a cap and it’s nowhere on the wiki. If they happened to you. You should report it as a bug.

Subdue.5479:

Whether or not everyone understands or cares about the difference does not change that the difference is there, and is a logical reason why switching the two would not be a good idea.

While the rate would be the same, assuming they were doing both every day, the choice is not. You can choose to skip a day of ap and just take a day longer to finish.

But you’re looking at it in a totally irrelevant way. The reality of it is that we can only make use of laurels at moments when we reach a milestone number that we need for a purchase we’re after. If you miss a daily laurel, you just hit your milestone a day later, exactly because of the open-endedness of the currency. There’s always another day tomorrow. You’re hung up over arbitrary totals you can’t make anymore, but those totals are irrelevant. Missing a day only means that your purchasing power curve is a day behind, just like someone’s AP gain curve is a day behind.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

Whether or not everyone understands or cares about the difference does not change that the difference is there, and is a logical reason why switching the two would not be a good idea.

While the rate would be the same, assuming they were doing both every day, the choice is not. You can choose to skip a day of ap and just take a day longer to finish.

But you’re looking at it in a totally irrelevant way. The reality of it is that we can only make use of laurels at moments when we reach a milestone number that we need for a purchase we’re after. If you miss a daily laurel, you just hit your milestone a day later, exactly because of the open-endedness of the currency. There’s always another day tomorrow. You’re hung up over arbitrary totals you can’t make anymore, but those totals are irrelevant. Missing a day only means that your purchasing power curve is a day behind, just like someone’s AP gain curve is a day behind.

Except someone’s ap curve has a limit, one which by the way, at least prior to the change, a good number of ap hunters had already reached if I recall correctly. If ap matters to you, you know that you are not permanently behind this’d people because of the cap. When it comes to laurels, you are materially behind when you miss a day, forever.

This isn’t to say that your suggestion couldn’t work. We know it could, as laurels were already locked behind far more time consuming activities in the previous system. I’m just saying, it wouldn’t make sense to lock the uncapped currency behind the activities and leave the capped achievements in the login reward.

And like I said to me personally it wouldn’t make a difference as I do the dailies anyway. And if your switching suggestion were to be implemented it would still be better than the system we had before.

@munkiman

The problem is you’re assuming everyone has the problems you have or you’ve noticed, when I don’t think most people do. I don’t think most players know or see those bugs. In fact, I’m sure of it.

To you fixing those bugs is more important because you know they’re there. Most people don’t. Most people have no clue. A biggest percentage of players in this game barely notice the bugs you do and write them off when they do as no big deal.

You’re talking about putting lipstick on a pig, but not everyone sees this game as a pig in the first place.

You say you study gaming design as a hobby. Most people don’t even know what the word meta means.

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

Whether or not everyone understands or cares about the difference does not change that the difference is there, and is a logical reason why switching the two would not be a good idea.

While the rate would be the same, assuming they were doing both every day, the choice is not. You can choose to skip a day of ap and just take a day longer to finish.

But you’re looking at it in a totally irrelevant way. The reality of it is that we can only make use of laurels at moments when we reach a milestone number that we need for a purchase we’re after. If you miss a daily laurel, you just hit your milestone a day later, exactly because of the open-endedness of the currency. There’s always another day tomorrow. You’re hung up over arbitrary totals you can’t make anymore, but those totals are irrelevant. Missing a day only means that your purchasing power curve is a day behind, just like someone’s AP gain curve is a day behind.

Except someone’s ap curve has a limit, one which by the way, at least prior to the change, a good number of ap hunters had already reached if I recall correctly. If ap matters to you, you know that you are not permanently behind this’d people because of the cap. When it comes to laurels, you are materially behind when you miss a day, forever.

This isn’t to say that your suggestion couldn’t work. We know it could, as laurels were already locked behind far more time consuming activities in the previous system. I’m just saying, it wouldn’t make sense to lock the uncapped currency behind the activities and leave the capped achievements in the login reward.

And like I said to me personally it wouldn’t make a difference as I do the dailies anyway. And if your switching suggestion were to be implemented it would still be better than the system we had before.

You can go on and on and on and keep saying the same thing over and over and over, but you’re only confirming again and again (and again) that the difference between AP gain and laurel gain only matters to people who care about maxing their laurel gain. You’re proving my point without realizing it, it seems.

Also, if it worked with the previous system, as you admit, and my hypothetical reversal just brings us back to a slight variation of the previous system, how the kitten can it be “illogical” as you claim it to be?

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

Manasa Devi.7958:

Subdue.5479:

Whether or not everyone understands or cares about the difference does not change that the difference is there, and is a logical reason why switching the two would not be a good idea.

While the rate would be the same, assuming they were doing both every day, the choice is not. You can choose to skip a day of ap and just take a day longer to finish.

But you’re looking at it in a totally irrelevant way. The reality of it is that we can only make use of laurels at moments when we reach a milestone number that we need for a purchase we’re after. If you miss a daily laurel, you just hit your milestone a day later, exactly because of the open-endedness of the currency. There’s always another day tomorrow. You’re hung up over arbitrary totals you can’t make anymore, but those totals are irrelevant. Missing a day only means that your purchasing power curve is a day behind, just like someone’s AP gain curve is a day behind.

Except someone’s ap curve has a limit, one which by the way, at least prior to the change, a good number of ap hunters had already reached if I recall correctly. If ap matters to you, you know that you are not permanently behind this’d people because of the cap. When it comes to laurels, you are materially behind when you miss a day, forever.

This isn’t to say that your suggestion couldn’t work. We know it could, as laurels were already locked behind far more time consuming activities in the previous system. I’m just saying, it wouldn’t make sense to lock the uncapped currency behind the activities and leave the capped achievements in the login reward.

And like I said to me personally it wouldn’t make a difference as I do the dailies anyway. And if your switching suggestion were to be implemented it would still be better than the system we had before.

You can go on and on and on and keep saying the same thing over and over and over, but you’re only confirming again and again (and again) that the difference between AP gain and laurel gain only matters to people who care about maxing their laurel gain. You’re proving my point without realizing it, it seems.

Also, if it worked with the previous system, as you admit, and my hypothetical reversal just brings us back to a slight variation of the previous system, how the kitten can it be “illogical” as you claim it to be?

You can drive with one foot on each pedal. It’s stupid, dangerous, and uncomfortable, but you could do it, your car would stop and go still. That doesn’t mean it’s a logical way of doing things.

More to the point, I’ve told you my reasoning for why such a switch would be illogical, and your argument has basically been “oh it wouldn’t be that bad.” What justification do you have other than that your like ap more for wanting such a change?

All I can gather from what you’re posting it that you find it “okay” to do something that would be beneficial to one group of people, but you find it “less okay” to do something that would be beneficial to another group of people. And you’ve come to these judgement calls based on an idea that you perceive to be some kind universal truth, which it really isn’t because in truth it’s nothing other than personal preference.

Really, you shouldn’t be using the word “logic” or any derivation of it, because nothing you say is based on logic and you don’t even realise it.

Manasa Devi.7958:

All I can gather from what you’re posting it that you find it “okay” to do something that would be beneficial to one group of people, but you find it “less okay” to do something that would be beneficial to another group of people. And you’ve come to these judgement calls based on an idea that you perceive to be some kind universal truth, which it really isn’t because in truth it’s nothing other than personal preference.

Really, you shouldn’t be using the word “logic” or any derivation of it, because nothing you say is based on logic and you don’t even realise it.

Laurels are universally beneficial. Even if there isn’t any laurel locked content you are interested in, they can be converted easily into gold. Ap on the other hand, has very little if any impact on gameplay for most users.

They’re not a universal anything. What you’re talking about is a preference, not an axioma. Some people may not care if they never gain another laurel again and not care at all about the gold they can turn them into, but instead care to get their hellfire skin unlocks as quickly as they can.

And even if what you’re saying were true, how does that make it “logical” that one is a log in reward and the other a daily reward?

Have you been completing the dailies?

Subdue.5479:

Laurels are universally beneficial. Even if there isn’t any laurel locked content you are interested in, they can be converted easily into gold. Ap on the other hand, has very little if any impact on gameplay for most users.

AP generate gold directly through gold rewards in AP track chests.

AP generate gold indirectly by increasing magic find and gold find.

I like the new system but if you are going to argue that Laurels are universally beneficial because they can be used to get gold you might want to remember that AP can as well.

Manasa Devi.7958:

Well, unless I’ve misread you terribly, you’ve been very middle-of-the-road about the entire subject anyway, so I wouldn’t expect a different reaction.

It’s okay, that’s my personal reaction. My full consideration is more complicated, which is why I’ve been discussing the matter here and in other topics rather than just dismissing it as “not my problem”. It could be my problem if it happens to something I care about, after all. Though . . . honestly, my play style has slipped quite a bit with my lack of play time into “whatever I can do in the time I have”.

(And that’s often a lot more than others might expect.)

Here’s the reason it would work for me, which I didn’t really have time to get into earlier. I don’t need or particularly want any of what’s on offer for the daily log in rewards. There aren’t any permanent AP opportunities left for me that I see myself ever going after, and I do like to see my AP grow over time for the AP rewards some of which I like.

I want to point out, there is a cap on the AP from Dailies, and I’m not sure what it is but I know people have hit that cap. Which is why I sort of approach it more leisurely – eventually I’ll hit the cap and be done with it.

With the rewards reversed, I’d get some AP for loging in, which would be nice, and if I ever felt I’d want some more laurels or some of that other stuff now awarded on log in, I’d have the option to do some dailies. Totally self-serving, sure. Unashamedly so.

It’s okay to propose a theoretical situation which is. Why do you think there are so many threads about mounts, or the discussion of raiding? People want those things themselves, and think it would be a good idea to include them.

Regardless of all this, my only major problem with dissecting this new daily system and discussing it . . . is how the same problem/request keeps coming up with regard to Dailies and I don’t think it is either a good idea or really smacks of believing one game mode more important over the other two (namely, PvE vs WvWvW and PvP) despite the desperate need to give those other two some love before people just start abandoning them. (Or keep abandoning them.)

Trying to invoke the concept of PvE meaning more, and thus having more choices for them and not the others, is a proposition which should be courted lightly. Increasing the choices all around (say, to 5 or 6) is one of the better hopes I have of actually being done.

One of the better changes is one Lichtenbird . . . I’m sure I didn’t get it right . . . posited in their thread about this system. Specifically, limiting each zone’s appearance in the task menu to specific level ranges, so Level 80s won’t see “Queensdale”/“Plains of Ashford” showing up.

Ashen.2907:

Subdue.5479:

Laurels are universally beneficial. Even if there isn’t any laurel locked content you are interested in, they can be converted easily into gold. Ap on the other hand, has very little if any impact on gameplay for most users.

AP generate gold directly through gold rewards in AP track chests.

AP generate gold indirectly by increasing magic find and gold find.

I like the new system but if you are going to argue that Laurels are universally beneficial because they can be used to get gold you might want to remember that AP can as well.

Those chests are a one-shot deal, remember? Laurels can be used over and over for materials, if I’m not mistaken. So AP can generate gold by the chests, but it’s a one-shot deal. (They also generate Gems directly too, which is perhaps more vaulable.)

As for the Magic Find +% . . . I . . . am pretty sure that’s a non-issue due to how terrible the RNG can be sometimes. Gold Find +% doesn’t come into play enough to give a significant boost, from what I know.