Guild Wars 2

WoW makes more money, people like WoW, Gw2 was dropping in players and couldnt keep the hardcore grinding crowd of vertical progressionists.
i remember countless post on the forums… people didnt know what to do, doing plinx over and over again…

its time to realize; with a treadmill the players complain, but they keep playing.
same thing as you keep working but you keep complaining about work;
humans are kittened !

Mackdose.6504:

Bluebird.1890:

This is not becoming World of Warcraft. It is becoming a nice niche in between World of Warcraft, and GW1, where vertical progression exists for those who want to experience it, and can be safely ignored by those of us who just want to play around in all portions of the game.

This. A thousand times.

This is the MMO I wanted, the fantasy game I wanted, I co-op game I wanted, the PvP game I wanted, the siege warfare I wanted.

I like knowing that there’s another 1% increase in character power just around the corner for me to achieve if i want it and if i don’t, then the 1% increase won’t keep me from participating in all of the content available.

that’s the problem, why should PvP / WvW players suffer the 1% stats difference just because they dont want to do any dungeons?

rchu.8945:

Mackdose.6504:

Bluebird.1890:

This is not becoming World of Warcraft. It is becoming a nice niche in between World of Warcraft, and GW1, where vertical progression exists for those who want to experience it, and can be safely ignored by those of us who just want to play around in all portions of the game.

This. A thousand times.

This is the MMO I wanted, the fantasy game I wanted, I co-op game I wanted, the PvP game I wanted, the siege warfare I wanted.

I like knowing that there’s another 1% increase in character power just around the corner for me to achieve if i want it and if i don’t, then the 1% increase won’t keep me from participating in all of the content available.

that’s the problem, why should PvP / WvW players suffer the 1% stats difference just because they dont want to do any dungeons?

How is it a problem? WvW has loads of gear imbalance already, I don’t see you vying for stat normalization. What makes this new gear any different?

rchu.8945:

Mackdose.6504:

Bluebird.1890:

This is not becoming World of Warcraft. It is becoming a nice niche in between World of Warcraft, and GW1, where vertical progression exists for those who want to experience it, and can be safely ignored by those of us who just want to play around in all portions of the game.

This. A thousand times.

This is the MMO I wanted, the fantasy game I wanted, I co-op game I wanted, the PvP game I wanted, the siege warfare I wanted.

I like knowing that there’s another 1% increase in character power just around the corner for me to achieve if i want it and if i don’t, then the 1% increase won’t keep me from participating in all of the content available.

that’s the problem, why should PvP / WvW players suffer the 1% stats difference just because they dont want to do any dungeons?

Have you read anything the devs have said?

I’ve been amazed that people think anything in GW2 is grindy, though I guess it is subjective, but I think back to when it took me 6 solid weeks of play to get from level 59 to 60 in hell level days of Everquest one or that it takes billions of exp to get to max level in Lineage 2……. Games that take months or years of play just to get up in levels! .. with no thought of even getting close to having any “top gear” from them… that is grindy. (to me)

When I first started playing GW2 I leveled so fast and gear was showered down on me in such volumn I told my friends it reminded me of a old fasioned “Monty Haul” dungeon (for you old AD&D players out there!).

just play the game.

there is no ranking in Wvwvw…. barely no reward.
dying 1 time more per 10h of play because you have 1% stat less is… marginal.

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

nachtnebel.9168:

“We don’t make grindy games” that’s the part of the manifesto they broke.

Maybe they will change that, Chris’ statements gave me some hope. But on the other hand, getting a piece of ascended gear is currently 8-10 times more expensive/time consuming that it should be, so I seriously doubt that they really will remove the grind, even if they make ascended gear easier to achieve.

Oh for pity sake….everyones definition of “grind” is different. Depends on what a person enjoys or doesn’t enjoy mostly.

“Grind” is every bit as vague as “Fun” since both varies per individual. All these games can do is go with whatever system the company thinks is best and let the customers decide for themselves if the the format fits their definitions.

All of th ANet should have told me…or Anet should have this..or that….Time to grow up and accept responsibility for making your own choices. You bought the game, you played for hours and hours…and decided that you like it or you don’t.

It as simple as that

Akiko.2364:

I’ve been amazed that people think anything in GW2 is grindy, though I guess it is subjective, but I think back to when it took me 6 solid weeks of play to get from level 59 to 60 in hell level days of Everquest one or that it takes billions of exp to get to max level in Lineage 2……. Games that take months or years of play just to get up in levels! .. with no thought of even getting close to having any “top gear” from them… that is grindy. (to me)

When I first started playing GW2 I leveled so fast and gear was showered down on me in such volumn I told my friends it reminded me of a old fasioned “Monty Haul” dungeon (for you old AD&D players out there!).

it goes a bit too fast actually… im level 80 in a 60-70 zone and my story is lvl 68.
ive unlocked 4 dungeons indisnt have time to even reach on the map.
just doing the story mode on these cant take me forever… reaching the place, but most challenging; finding a group.

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

I think the idea that Anet was working towards a gear grind on the caliber of WoW is intellectually dishonest. It’s not like ArenaNet suddenly has a different studio culture or long-term goals since launch. The idea that they were just bait and switching is a popular unfounded opinion that needs to die.

So I guessed you missed the intro as well as many other points thruout the entire presentation.

“GW2 is our opportunity to question everything, to make a game that defy’s existing conventions”

Hate to break it to you there bub but existing conventions is vertical progression thru dungeon instancing or have you never played other games before? EVEN games that add smaller dungeons that can be completed with 2-3 people have rewards you cannot receive in open world. Anet has done this both by reducing the drop rates of both Rares and Globs from open world environments, and by breaking magic find so this does not work on open world chests and adding DR to open world events and mob farming preventing people from getting the mats they need to complete their crafted armor set. They’ve also added a tier of gear solely available via RNG (one of the biggest convention of them all when it comes to loot like this) as the sole means by which to get the armor pieces from this dungeon.

“In most games you go out and you have really fun tasks that you occasionally you get to do and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff”

Let me illustrate for you how this has happened since placing this tier in this title. By making it harder content to complete other players who were doing it before have also jumped on the bandwagon of requiring exotic gear or level 80 to complete. People are already being discriminated against by players who want only the best teams. Why else do you think there’s a ton of people in LA all asking for groups but no one is teaming up. Add to this the second type of gating they added to this dungeon where not everyone is on the same difficulty level yet and you have a serious problem. People can’t team up because those that haven’t gotten that far will not get the credit boosting them up to the level the others are at (difficulty level) further cutting off players from content. People also don’t want inexperienced players with this dungeon they want them to know every fight intimately.

“We just don’t want players to grind in GW2, no one enjoys that, finds that fun”

By making this game all about dungeons (with the glaring loot issues it now has) they have made the mistake (and admitted and apologized for it no less) that their content has now become the grind they were trying to avoid.

“We do NOT want to build the same MMO everyone else is building”

They’ve nerfed to oblivion any condition builds that might have existed before to the point that everyone is going with the builds for pow/pre/%crit damage armorsets and weapons which has allowed the market to be manipulated to beyond belief prices on everything. I checked yesterday and these items have gone up to 4-5 gold per piece of armor whereas before this all started i could get them for 1 gold each and I was able to gear my first character without breaking the bank off of the items i’ve gathered throughout the leveling process.

What they’ve done is cut off the progression that made this game different and great. People could build whole sets of armor for different purposes different roles before (CC, support) instead of all DPS glass canons builds all the time.

The current convention for all mmo’s is grinding instanced dungeons to obtain new gear via RNG solely in dungeons, so that you can run more instanced dungeons to obtain new gear. Nothing in the open world matters, nothing valuable can be obtained in the open world at any given time.

Now they have the chance to correct the mistake of following that same convention by improving drops, fixing drop rates of globs, removing DR from open world, making crafting worth while again by adding recipes for the new tier armorsets, and fixing whatever is causing MF to cause the drops to be lower and lower in quality the higher that MF goes.

Mackdose.6504:

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

I think the idea that Anet was working towards a gear grind on the caliber of WoW is intellectually dishonest. It’s not like ArenaNet suddenly has a different studio culture or long-term goals since launch. The idea that they were just bait and switching is a popular unfounded opinion that needs to die.

Giving players a sense of progression without making that progression the entire purpose behind the game is not a gear grind.

It’s a single facet to a game, in which there is sPVP, tPVP, W3, achievements, aesthetic rewards, holiday events, etc.

So, I agree. The argument is hyperbolic and intellectually dishonest. :[

Mackdose.6504:

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

I think the idea that Anet was working towards a gear grind on the caliber of WoW is intellectually dishonest. It’s not like ArenaNet suddenly has a different studio culture or long-term goals since launch. The idea that they were just bait and switching is a popular unfounded opinion that needs to die.

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

Sky.9347:

Mackdose.6504:

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

I think the idea that Anet was working towards a gear grind on the caliber of WoW is intellectually dishonest. It’s not like ArenaNet suddenly has a different studio culture or long-term goals since launch. The idea that they were just bait and switching is a popular unfounded opinion that needs to die.

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

It different for everyone though. I don’t think of anything in GW2 as grindy. Its just an immersive world that my characters make their way through accomplishing this or that.

I don’t need goals to play a game. Goals = Grind…because you’ve convinced yourself that you just absolutely need some bit of digital fluff and have turned your game into a job.

I got a job…don’t want another. Just want to blow off steam in pretty cool world.

To the OP thank you for posting this. The rage against ANet is not necessary, it puts the GW2 community in a bad light. It’s time to get over it guys if you’re angry take it out in WvWvW.

Sky.9347:

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

This is hilarious, thank you.

Avatar.1923:

WoW makes more money, people like WoW, Gw2 was dropping in players and couldnt keep the hardcore grinding crowd of vertical progressionists.
i remember countless post on the forums… people didnt know what to do, doing plinx over and over again…

its time to realize; with a treadmill the players complain, but they keep playing.
same thing as you keep working but you keep complaining about work;
humans are kittened !

Wow has more players because they added lower tier dungeons to a dungeon only progression game? the people who are holding onto this game are playing solely because they don’t want to leave this friends behind (because many are scared they will end up in a new game all alone and don’t wish to make new friends and start over which btw is one of the joys of mmo’s, part of that feeling the felt when they started to play that everyone is trying to get back).

We have yet to see their numbers for nov or dec just speculative guesses on them. We also have yet to see how many annual passes will be dropped in dec for better titles. When WoW lost 2 million players did they add a new tier or an easier dungeon? No they added transmogrification. That right there should tell you something. 6 years of a game being out the moment players leave and they chose finally to add something that only RPers and casuals care about to increase their populations again.

History shows us that the mmo players that stay for longer periods of time are those that aren’t into the dungeon grind (but will tolerate it if they have a good base of friends to play with). Those that don’t stay for very long and that destroy whole communities (or has everyone forgotten why Gearscore was purposely broken in WoW) are the types of gamers that GW2 is catering to right now, those that will run a dungeon only to gear and leave the game a month later (or has everyone forgotten what happened to SWTOR?)

Seriously, the argument that the raider gear grind crowd is the reason for success for any title is old and wrong. The gaming community changed dramatically with players like me years ago, we aren’t the minority quite the opposite, and we came to this game GW2 because it offered everything we were looking for up until a month before and on Nov 16th. (a month before they started effectively ending farming mats in open world)

Mackdose.6504:

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

Because

A. They said they wanted to make a game with less grinding→ Didn’t happen.
B. Gear progression would be skins→Introduction of ascended gear means they lied
C. Their continued stance that going forward they will have vertical progression that drastically alters how this game will be played.

I followed the game. I read and watched everything I could. I understood that top statted lvl 80 gear was supposed to be easy to get and things from really hard dungeons were purely cosmetic. At release this was fairly true although exotics were still a bit of a grind for most people to obtain. Now suddenly that is all changing. So either I missed an interview somewhere along with probably a million other people, they always planned this but failed to inform people, or they just started tacking on ideas to keep people playing. I bought this game on the premice that it wouldn’t be a gear treadmill like WoW, I’ve done that grind and I’ll never do it again. You wonder why people are angry? They bought something they thought and were told was different, yet suddenly it’s changing so it isn’t any different at all.

Sky.9347:

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

False.

Source: I have an active WoW sub, 4/6 before the new raids came out and I stopped playing again.

Distaste.4801:

Because

A. They said they wanted to make a game with less grinding-> Didn’t happen.
B. Gear progression would be skins->Introduction of ascended gear means they lied
C. Their continued stance that going forward they will have vertical progression that drastically alters how this game will be played.

[…]or they just started tacking on ideas to keep people playing. I bought this game on the premice that it wouldn’t be a gear treadmill like WoW, I’ve done that grind and I’ll never do it again. You wonder why people are angry? They bought something they thought and were told was different, yet suddenly it’s changing so it isn’t any different at all.

But all of that is demonstrably false, there is no mandatory grind, there are both skins and higher levels of gear (1% total stat increase anyone?) and there isn’t a “gear treadmill” because you don’t require the max stat gear to participate in the available content.

Ok, I will have to give the OP this one. The manifesto doesn’t actually specifically mention gear progression. So he is right there…however….

Yes, there is a however…

1) Even though they didn’t break their manifesto over gear progression as I now accept, they have implied as much throughout and the video seemed to support this train of thought. I still think that indirectly they pulled fast one on GW1 players in this respect. Also because they just admitted in the AMA that they knew that they would get a lot of flack for this decision. And they could only expect this if they knew a lot of people were not expecting this for a GW title.

2)The manifesto doesn’t state gear progression, but it does talk about the supposed lack of grind and a personal story that makes you feel powerful, like a hero. So may I submit that on both those points they have in fact broken the manifesto.

The game does have grind. We had Orr grinding, now it’s FotM grinding and leveling after 2 toons also becomes a grind and this in part because of the very thin and very crappy story line. Horrible voice acting adds to that. But anyone who finished Arah must admit that especially the endboss is a total letdown and that after about level 40-50 it’s all about Trahearne and not your character.

So….

Anet, you didn’t actually say there wouldn’t be gear progression but you dodged it like a pro so you would sell copies only to hit people with the bomb after. You knew it and did it anyway.

Grind is in the game and it’s not fun. After one or two months of being level 80 at most it gets grindy and it isn’t fun.

Story line isn’t personal. They call you a hero from level 1 but it’s fake. It doesn’t feel powerful and as you level the story line is thin and the focus changes away from the hero.

Still, when I add everything together the game was getting stale for me before it and I was mostly disappointed then by the lacking story telling that you promised and the lame skill bar with your AAA (AFK Auto Attack) dungeon bosses.

So take the initial emotion out of it when we got the surprise of gear progression and let’s even accept you never actually said there wouldn’t be gear progression, I still feel you cheated there by avoiding the subject and letting people believe there wouldn’t be any gear progression.

Twist it anyway you want. You knew people would be upset about it and you knew why and you stayed silent till you dropped that bomb.

Mackdose.6504:

Logun.2349:

Bluebird.1890:

No. What we can blame people for is not having some patience after the apology is made to give them some time to try and fix the mistakes they obviously want to correct. We can also blame them for blowing the mistakes completely out of proportion to make it seem like the current status of the game is grind FOTM or you will be weak in comparison to someone who has grinded FOTM.

Neither of which is correct.

True perhaps, but if players didn’t ring the alarm bells now “loud and hard” the live team may have stayed on course to turn this into another endgame dungeon grind game, since they seemed to be oblivious to the impact this is having on the rest of the game.

Arena Net made a lot of statements on their game design philosophies over the years. I suggest watching a few of their developer and GDC Panels and you might get why people felt like this patch stepped on some of their core design values and why people were shocked to see this at all never mind 3 months after launch.

I did watch the GDC panels. Religiously. I still don’t feel betrayed, or understand why other people do.

I think the idea that Anet was working towards a gear grind on the caliber of WoW is intellectually dishonest. It’s not like ArenaNet suddenly has a different studio culture or long-term goals since launch. The idea that they were just bait and switching is a popular unfounded opinion that needs to die.

I played WoW for years and grinded out countless tiers in PvE and PvP. The grind in WoW and the grind in GW2 are in no way comparable, you are right, but it is GW2 that utterly dwarfs WoW for the steepness or difficulty or time investment in the grind. I could get a set of gear in WoW in the time it would take to grind out a single piece in GW2—and there was zero cost in gold! Those appealing to steepness or difficulty of the grind in this way have clearly never played WoW or never marched through the tiers. It was tedious as all grinds are, but it was easy compared to GW2.

Bluebird.1890:

Corvindi.5734:

Same thread I linked, page 12:

“Whoa there. I wasn’t trying to start a fight. I’m sorry if it sounded that way.

ANet has already made it clear (in past announcements, interviews, etc.) that max level gear will be available to everyone through normal game play. I’m paraphrasing, but they said that by level 80, everyone should have max gear. By that reasoning, we can extrapolate that the items available in the shop will be cosmetic in nature, and not confer any statistical advantage.

There will almost certainly be armor and weapon skins that are difficult to get in game, but since they won’t provide any advantage, then it really doesn’t matter if you get them. They will be a matter of personal preference only.

There is nearly literally no way for them to make the game P2W based on the game model."

---

Again, how many examples do you want is the question, I could probably find you hundreds. I’d rather not and I’m pretty sure I’ll get infracted if I actually did post hundreds of quotes, but I could do it.

1) Again, max level gear is intended to be attainable by everyone through normal gameplay, thus ascended gear drops being implemented in other places than FOTM in the future.

2) You aren’t quoting an Arenanet employee.

3) You are taking an argument on P2W in the item shop out of context to prove another point, which is completely unrelated.

1. Combined with my sig about dungeons that is a dev quote, indeed we are talking about gear that is now outside normal gameplay by their own definition.

2. I never said I was. The reason I quoted this is because ArenaNet employees knew their fans assumed vertical progression of this type would not be in the game (at least one Anet employee was posting in that thread) and did not correct our assumptions.

3. The cash shop and what it contained was often excused by players who said it didn’t matter what was in the shop because at level 80 it was a simple, quick matter to get the best stats on our gear.

As to what you said in another post about gear not mattering in PvP, of course it does. If it didn’t, ArenaNet would not have equalized gear in sPvP.

Not to say that WvW didn’t already have problems before, because it did.

First, not being a team greatly reduces badge drops as well as loot drops.

Second, even someone gathering badges in a team would take much longer to get a full set of badge gear than dungeon gear.

Third, badge gear was not available for all stat combos, meaning a player who wanted to optimize their gear would probably need to craft do dungeons farm karma or some combination of these.

Archmortal.1027:

Sky.9347:

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

This is hilarious, thank you.

It’s true. I played WoW for many years off and on, and some of my closest RL friends still run a large raiding guild.

It’s a very rare piece of gear in WoW that requires anywhere even close to the time investment one piece of Ascended gear requires in GW2 right now.

Oh… but they said they wouldn’t make the requirements so bad in the future, maybe.

But they have too. They can’t release content as bug-free and quickly as Blizzard can. They have told those of us who were loyal to their vision to go kitten ourselves, and the only players they have left will eat through their content so fast they won’t be able to keep up without using the “grind” mechanic.

If the grind is reduced to a level where normal players will get them reasonably, then it won’t be long enough for these vertical progression players. It must be substantial, or it doesn’t serve any purpose whatsoever.

They have decided to go this vertical route because in their data it appears to be the best way to keep a lot of people playing for a long time.

This is going to fail. There are so many reasons why, but mark my words – this strategy will fail. It might seem like it works at first, for a while… but it won’t.

WoW’s grind has been carefully fine tuned within a game that was designed entirely for that purpose, from day 1 of the first alpha test, over the last 8 years.

GW2 is a latecomer to that market, and now that they have lost that unique competitive edge they had over all other AAA MMOs, what they have left is: a buggy, unbalanced game which is missing a multitude of “basic” features and that is 8 years behind the industry leader with no loyal fan base to rely on, and no real direction other than “MOAR CONCURRENT USARS!!”.

Raine.1394:

I played WoW for years and grinded out countless tiers in PvE and PvP. The grind in WoW and the grind in GW2 are in no way comparable, you are right, but it is GW2 that utterly dwarfs WoW for the steepness or difficulty or time investment in the grind. I could get a set of gear in WoW in the time it would take to grind out a single piece in GW2—and there was zero cost in gold! Those appealing to steepness or difficulty of the grind in this way have clearly never played WoW or never marched through the tiers. It was tedious as all grinds are, but it was easy compared to GW2.

Comparing apples to apples, (max gear in GW2 to max gear in WoW) You’d have to:

In WoW:

1. Heroics for pre-raid
2. 1 raid per week, LFR, Daily grind until geared for heroic raids.
3. 1 Heroic Raid per week

I’d reckon about 2 months before you had full heroic tier, then you’d get a content patch a couple weeks later and you’d repeat the raid/LFR per week/ heroic per week/ new dailies until you’re back at status quo. Oh yeah, and you’d be doing this with 9 other people who may or may not be as dedicated as you.

In GW2:

1. Story mode once, for a given dungeon.
2. Explorables until you have a set of exotics
3. Fractals to realistically 15 before maybe you would be stopped by agony.

This can be accomplished in about a month from level 1.

Yeah, night and day difference, with GW2 being on top.

@Corvindi.

Really? Quoting a random user from a fan forum? I don’t know what bothers me more, the fact that you’re taking a random user’s words as gospel or the fact that you interpret what was said as contradictory.

Also: Lol at the same 4 trolls de-railing every thread they can get their hands on.

@Sky: I agree with your post and on top of that, WoW attracted a fanbase comprised in large part of brand new MMO players.

Guild Wars 2, on the other hand, has to deal with a large number of jaded old MMO players. And a lot of us are simply tired of treadmills.

MechanicalMind.9126:

Yukishiro.8792:

nachtnebel.9168:

“We don’t make grindy games” that’s the part of the manifesto they broke.

Yep. FOTM violates the spirit of the manifesto as a whole and that specific bit of it. I don’t see how anyone can even try to argue otherwise.

Now maybe the manifesto is wrong. Maybe people want a gear treadmill. But that is very clearly not what the game was marketed as and originally supposed to be.

This. +1 sir.

Also, honestly, can anyone here say they repeat a dungeon over and over for any reason other that they need the loots?

Don’t get me wrong a couple times with friends and the “lulz” is cool. But anyone really keep hitting it up just for the “fun”?

And if the answer to that question is yes, if you couldn’t run it with your friends, would you still consider it fun?

My answer is for sure a definite “YES!”

The dungeon design is great fun, unique, and challenging. I’ve ran level 3 around 7 times with guildies and friends alike. I’m up to level 7 now, but I keep going back to the lower ones for others in my guild because progressive gear is …well, it’s not required and doesn’t matter.

If I couldn’t run it with guildies or friends…how did that question even get in there? You honestly think they’d design an aspect of an MMORPG to exclude guildies/friends? That’s what would make people not play the game at all, if they couldn’t socialize.

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

Anyone notice that Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum are mysteriously missing since the whole Lost Shores fiasco started?

GW2 is a great themepark/treadmill game.

its a WoW on steroid. nicer, better balanced, more action etc etc.

but it isnt a revolution, and the jaded players will feel tired.
thats why the game needs to be good at bringing different types of new players to this mmo genre.
did GW2 succeed at that ?
only person that didnt like mmo that tried GW2 that i know of, never got into it, he quit at around lvl 30 saying this game is sterile and souless like all other mmos.

anyway, gw2 is no revolution, but for a lover of the themepark/treadmill genre; its super cool and i rate it highly.

arcaneclarity.5283:

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

Anyone notice that Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum are mysteriously missing since the whole Lost Shores fiasco started?

Did you notice that nothing in that quote from Colin has been contradicted?

Sky.9347:

Archmortal.1027:

Sky.9347:

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

This is hilarious, thank you.

It’s true. I played WoW for many years off and on, and some of my closest RL friends still run a large raiding guild.

You made the sweeping statement that WoW itself has less gear grind than GW2 which is simply ludicrous. Ascended Gear takes a while at the moment because in terms of drops it’s pretty RNG in a bad way. But at least you can keep trying as long as you want/can tolerate. In WoW you get one chance a week to get that raid item and then you have to compete against other players for it. I played WoW for many years as well, all on. WoW as a game is built around grinding in every aspect of its gameplay. GW2 is not unless the player chooses to actively grind whether it’s because they’re used to it or because they really want [item].

The current exception is Ascended gear and only because ANET did an absolutely horrible job of implementing it. They (hopefully) fully intend to make it as widely available as exotic gear currently is which would then mean that there are no exceptions and there is still no grind unless you choose to undertake one yourself.

WoW has more players because it’s been around something like twenty times longer, was easier to play than its competition, looked better than its competition and most importantly, because it wasn’t dealing with an audience that had expectations of what an MMO should be, rather the audience just wanted an MMO to do stuff in and WoW was the most fun for that at the time.

GW2 is not a revolution, no. It isn’t trying to take WoW to the chopping block and slice off the evil hivemind that is Activision in order to free the MMO world from its corruption. But it is different and operates under a new paradigm for the MMO scene. It cannot be truthfully said that the two games are similar beyond both being MMORPGs and all the gameplay implications that come with it (stats, dungeons, exploration, etc).

Mackdose.6504:

arcaneclarity.5283:

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

Anyone notice that Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum are mysteriously missing since the whole Lost Shores fiasco started?

Did you notice that nothing in that quote from Colin has been contradicted?

Last I checked the rarest rings and back pieces in the game are the most powerful rings and back pieces and you need them to be the best. There is now a mandatory gear treadmill, those who don’t chase after the new prestigious gear are less powerful than those that do.

Sky.9347:

WoW is far less of a gear grind than GW2 is, currently.

I would love to know how WoW is far less of a gear grind.

arcaneclarity.5283:

Mackdose.6504:

arcaneclarity.5283:

Colin Johanson

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

http://www.arena.net/blog/is-it-fun-colin-johanson-on-how-arenanet-measures-success

Anyone notice that Colin Johanson and Eric Flannum are mysteriously missing since the whole Lost Shores fiasco started?

Did you notice that nothing in that quote from Colin has been contradicted?

Last I checked the rarest rings and back pieces in the game are the most powerful rings and back pieces and you need them to be the best. There is now a mandatory gear treadmill, those who don’t chase after the new prestigious gear are less powerful than those that do.

You should learn what “mandatory” means. Ascended gear isn’t exactly “the rarest” either, considering it’s a RNG drop.

Less powerful in this case (1% with 2 rings and the back) isn’t really meaningful, because that 1% is within the margin that player skill alone would overcome the stat advantage.

For those posting the 1% stat increase, if it’s really only going to be that small, why increase the stats at all? I did find this picture that WAS on the gw2 wiki that showed more then a 1% stat increase(picture has been taken down recently. Here’s a copy of that picture… http://guildwars2pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ascended-Item-Rarity.jpg ) Power and percision went from 63(exotic) to 68(ascended), magic find went from 7% to 10%. I’m not sure but those numbers seem a little bit higher then 1%.

I really have no problem with getting ascended gear that are basically exotics with infustions(for agony), I just have a problem with new better stats being put in.

What do you say to the person who paid a ton of real money to get enough gold to have the top gear in the game only to find out it’s not the top gear? How does ArenaNet expect people in the future to drop money for gems for gear when the thought that at ANY time a new tier of armor/weapons could be released.

If +1% is not “more powerful”, then what percentage would be? 2%? 10%? 50%? 500%? one more percent than difference between exotics and a top tier?
If someone can argue a literal meaning of “grinding for 1000 hours” (so 999 apparently is ok), then by the same reasoning even one point more is “more powerful”.

NastyPiggy.2046:

For those posting the 1% stat increase, if it’s really only going to be that small, why increase the stats at all? I did find this picture that WAS on the gw2 wiki that showed more then a 1% stat increase(picture has been taken down recently. Here’s a copy of that picture… http://guildwars2pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ascended-Item-Rarity.jpg ) Power and percision went from 63(exotic) to 68(ascended), magic find went from 7% to 10%. I’m not sure but those numbers seem a little bit higher then 1%.

I really have no problem with getting ascended gear that are basically exotics with infustions(for agony), I just have a problem with new better stats being put in.

What do you say to the person who paid a ton of real money to get enough gold to have the top gear in the game only to find out it’s not the top gear? How does ArenaNet expect people in the future to drop money for gems for gear when the thought that at ANY time a new tier of armor/weapons could be released.

1. The 1% comes from the fact that both rings and the back piece only increase your character’s total stats by 1%. Stop looking at pieces in a vacuum.
2. The game isn’t pay 2 win, if someone dropped real money for top of the line gear, oh well.

Astralporing.1957:

If +1% is not “more powerful”, then what percentage would be? 2%? 10%? 50%? 500%? one more percent than difference between exotics and a top tier?

It’s like taxes, sure it may only be 1% this time but over time adding small 1% here and there can add up. Once you have to start creating new better stats to keep people, you have to continue doing it and if they don’t… why did they have to create these new higher stat items?

Astralporing.1957:

If +1% is not “more powerful”, then what percentage would be? 2%? 10%? 50%? 500%? one more percent than difference between exotics and a top tier?
If someone can argue a literal meaning of “grinding for 1000 hours” (so 999 apparently is ok), then by the same reasoning even one point more is “more powerful”.

I’d say around 15-20% is where there’d be a tangible advantage in gameplay, judging by the Orbs of Power removal from WvW.

Bluebird.1890:

FOTM violates this because it forces you to do only FOTM over and over for ascended gear, and not WVWVW, or PVE, or other dungeons.

Which, Chris Whiteside has already stated in the Reddit AMA, will be changing. Soon.

Again, where is the problem?

Uh the problem is that FOTM ever made it into the game the way it did. It’s not as if FOTM came down from the heavens one day and introduced itself to the developers and us and no one realized what it was until later. They made it. If they are really so dumb they didn’t realize what their creation was they shouldn’t be in charge of an MMO. The only reasonable conclusion is they were aware of what they were doing and did it anyway. That they realize now the error of their ways is better than not realizing it but it doesn’t really make me confident about the future of the game that something like FOTM ever made it into the game. Especially the way it did, completely by surprise with virtually no period for public comment or testing.

Mackdose.6504:

NastyPiggy.2046:

For those posting the 1% stat increase, if it’s really only going to be that small, why increase the stats at all? I did find this picture that WAS on the gw2 wiki that showed more then a 1% stat increase(picture has been taken down recently. Here’s a copy of that picture… http://guildwars2pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ascended-Item-Rarity.jpg ) Power and percision went from 63(exotic) to 68(ascended), magic find went from 7% to 10%. I’m not sure but those numbers seem a little bit higher then 1%.

I really have no problem with getting ascended gear that are basically exotics with infustions(for agony), I just have a problem with new better stats being put in.

What do you say to the person who paid a ton of real money to get enough gold to have the top gear in the game only to find out it’s not the top gear? How does ArenaNet expect people in the future to drop money for gems for gear when the thought that at ANY time a new tier of armor/weapons could be released.

1. The 1% comes from the fact that both rings and the back piece only increase your character’s total stats by 1%. Stop looking at pieces in a vacuum.
2. The game isn’t pay 2 win, if someone dropped real money for top of the line gear, oh well.

Sorry I looked at the stats from an official guildwars2 website… but like I said, that picture has been taken down recently but they forgot to remove the link to it in the wiki.

Ah… not pay to win, but there is pay to get more xp, pay to buy gems to turn into gold to buy whatever you want… but it’s not pay to win.

Can’t wait for a few years down the road where if you’re not hitting for 50k a shot in WvW you aren’t good enough.

NastyPiggy.2046:

For those posting the 1% stat increase, if it’s really only going to be that small, why increase the stats at all? I did find this picture that WAS on the gw2 wiki that showed more then a 1% stat increase(picture has been taken down recently. Here’s a copy of that picture… http://guildwars2pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ascended-Item-Rarity.jpg ) Power and percision went from 63(exotic) to 68(ascended), magic find went from 7% to 10%. I’m not sure but those numbers seem a little bit higher then 1%.

It’s basically this way.

When you compare item to item, it might be X% difference when you just take that one specific item.

But when you compare character (all exotic) to character (all exotic with the exceptions of the Ascended pieces) then it is Y%.

Had more Ascended gear been out there, then it would be a much bigger problem, but the small pool of it right now makes it not so bad.

And yes, not having it doesn’t make you the best.

But 1% difference isn’t end of the world.

Yukishiro.8792:

Bluebird.1890:

FOTM violates this because it forces you to do only FOTM over and over for ascended gear, and not WVWVW, or PVE, or other dungeons.

Which, Chris Whiteside has already stated in the Reddit AMA, will be changing. Soon.

Again, where is the problem?

Uh the problem is that FOTM ever made it into the game the way it did. It’s not as if FOTM came down from the heavens one day and introduced itself to the developers and us and no one realized what it was until later. They made it. If they are really so dumb they didn’t realize what their creation was they shouldn’t be in charge of an MMO. The only reasonable conclusion is they were aware of what they were doing and did it anyway. That they realize now the error of their ways is better than not realizing it but it doesn’t really make me confident about the future of the game that something like FOTM ever made it into the game. Especially the way it did, completely by surprise with virtually no period for public comment or testing.

From most of the posts I’ve read, it sounds like a great addition to an MMO, the problem is that GW2 said for the last few years this isn’t the route they’re going and people loved that idea and followed the development of this game for years. 3 months after release and it’s all been changed.

I wouldn’t even mind FoTM if it had ZERO effect to WvW, but it does have some effect and with that either you keep up with the Jones’ or you possibly fall behind. So what if this time it’s only 1%, next time another 1% or more, then again… 1%-2%, till we’re talking 10-15% more stats, then you’re WAY behind if you haven’t been keeping up. This is what the people who are upset are talking about. Once you go past a line you create, it’s much easier to go past the next one, and the next.

xiede.8543:

NastyPiggy.2046:

For those posting the 1% stat increase, if it’s really only going to be that small, why increase the stats at all? I did find this picture that WAS on the gw2 wiki that showed more then a 1% stat increase(picture has been taken down recently. Here’s a copy of that picture… http://guildwars2pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ascended-Item-Rarity.jpg ) Power and percision went from 63(exotic) to 68(ascended), magic find went from 7% to 10%. I’m not sure but those numbers seem a little bit higher then 1%.

It’s basically this way.

When you compare item to item, it might be X% difference when you just take that one specific item.

But when you compare character (all exotic) to character (all exotic with the exceptions of the Ascended pieces) then it is Y%.

Had more Ascended gear been out there, then it would be a much bigger problem, but the small pool of it right now makes it not so bad.

And yes, not having it doesn’t make you the best.

But 1% difference isn’t end of the world.

Not till it’s all added up… then you have LOTS of content to grind to catch up. Once again, if it’s 1% why increase it at all? You created your max baseline with exotics/legendaries, why go past that?

Razarei.2809:

@Corvindi.

Really? Quoting a random user from a fan forum? I don’t know what bothers me more, the fact that you’re taking a random user’s words as gospel or the fact that you interpret what was said as contradictory.

Also: Lol at the same 4 trolls de-railing every thread they can get their hands on.

I quoted the posters to make the point that there are lots of examples of fans assuring each other that there would be no end game gear grind. They were doing so in threads where Arenanet employees posted, no less, yet nothing was said to correct this apparent misunderstanding by the fan base.

This gives weight to the interpretation of the Manifesto to mean that Guild Wars 2 would not have the type of vertical progression grind that Ascended gear has now introduced.

NastyPiggy.2046:

Yukishiro.8792:

Bluebird.1890:

FOTM violates this because it forces you to do only FOTM over and over for ascended gear, and not WVWVW, or PVE, or other dungeons.

Which, Chris Whiteside has already stated in the Reddit AMA, will be changing. Soon.

Again, where is the problem?

Uh the problem is that FOTM ever made it into the game the way it did. It’s not as if FOTM came down from the heavens one day and introduced itself to the developers and us and no one realized what it was until later. They made it. If they are really so dumb they didn’t realize what their creation was they shouldn’t be in charge of an MMO. The only reasonable conclusion is they were aware of what they were doing and did it anyway. That they realize now the error of their ways is better than not realizing it but it doesn’t really make me confident about the future of the game that something like FOTM ever made it into the game. Especially the way it did, completely by surprise with virtually no period for public comment or testing.

From most of the posts I’ve read, it sounds like a great addition to an MMO, the problem is that GW2 said for the last few years this isn’t the route they’re going and people loved that idea and followed the development of this game for years. 3 months after release and it’s all been changed.

I wouldn’t even mind FoTM if it had ZERO effect to WvW, but it does have some effect and with that either you keep up with the Jones’ or you possibly fall behind. So what if this time it’s only 1%, next time another 1% or more, then again… 1%-2%, till we’re talking 10-15% more stats, then you’re WAY behind if you haven’t been keeping up. This is what the people who are upset are talking about. Once you go past a line you create, it’s much easier to go past the next one, and the next.

That’s called the slippery slope fallacy, and since there is a possible middle ground (low power curve, future availability of ascended gear/infusions, ease of acquisition in the future) it is not a strong argument.

Just because WoW does this doesn’t mean GW2 has or will.

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.

-From Is it Fun?

This is a very clear declaration of their intent to stick with the original philosophy they had in GW1.

I’m sure there’s a method of parsing this which doesn’t contradict what they’re currently doing. They may not have ever shut the door on a gear treadmill entirely. There may not be a smoking gun where a developer explicitly said, “We will never release gear which is statistically superior to Exotic gear for any reason, ever.”

None of that matters. The message they sent was loud and clear. It was repeated. It was reinforced by precedent. It was intentional.

They intentionally gave me the impression that there would not be continuous gear inflation. That impression is incorrect.

And now we’re being reassured with this “We never said we wouldn’t do this!” tripe. Any time someone tells you something like, “it’s not technically lying”, you’re being lied to.

Mackdose.6504:

NastyPiggy.2046:

From most of the posts I’ve read, it sounds like a great addition to an MMO, the problem is that GW2 said for the last few years this isn’t the route they’re going and people loved that idea and followed the development of this game for years. 3 months after release and it’s all been changed.

I wouldn’t even mind FoTM if it had ZERO effect to WvW, but it does have some effect and with that either you keep up with the Jones’ or you possibly fall behind. So what if this time it’s only 1%, next time another 1% or more, then again… 1%-2%, till we’re talking 10-15% more stats, then you’re WAY behind if you haven’t been keeping up. This is what the people who are upset are talking about. Once you go past a line you create, it’s much easier to go past the next one, and the next.

That’s called the slippery slope fallacy, and since there is a possible middle ground (low power curve, future availability of ascended gear/infusions, ease of acquisition in the future) it is not a strong argument.

Just because WoW does this doesn’t mean GW2 has or will.

So there’s a stronger arguement that there’s a possible middle ground and they’ll stay there? This wasn’t even an expansion, this was just a throw it into the game thing which really scares me on future updates.

I’ve been in software development for over 2 decades and understand how this stuff works behind the scenes and this move is very telling that things have changed greatly somewhere in the last year for ArenaNet, probably in the last 6 months.

There’s NO reason to up the stats this “one time” because if there was a reason to up them now, there’s a reason to up them 6 months down the road… just like all other MMOs.

The problem is that it’s a slippery slope. Once they introduced even minor vertical stat increases, the fear (and justifiably so) is that they will continue to add stat increases. Even if the increases are minor, there is a huge segment of the population that will feel compelled to grind for it. This divides the player base even further. People who might otherwise be participating in WvW, might feel guilty that they aren’t grinding for ascended gear and won’t WvW as much. Once the ascended gear is available through other game modes, this might be alleviated, but to be honest I don’t think its a wise design choice. Age of Conan went through a similar change with the introduction of the 1.05 patch. Before the patch, item stats had no effect on PvP. Once they revamped the gear, the game went on life support ever since. The same will happen if Anet follows suit. Mark my words.

Reaver.9256:

I can go buy the best gear in the game for about 1.5 gold on the market if I want with no grind whatsoever.

Not even close anymore. The only exotic armor or weapons that are under 3g each are those with +condition damage, or maybe the odd MF piece. If you want Knight’s, Cleric’s or Berserker, be prepared to pay 3.5g and up.