Guild Wars 2

It’s about that time in GW2 when people start to understand the build system and now we are seeing the description ‘selfish’ player creep into the meta game.

What that means is very little support in the build and focuses on self. A Guardian who spec for DPS is one example. As a Guardian you can spec into GS and trait for support OR you can trait into pure DPS. The same applies for every other profession.

What are your views, can a GW2 player be ‘selfish’ and should players always consider support?

I always spec for Vitality, Power, Healing, Crits, Toughness in that order.

Partly because I am a noob and I don’t play the numbers game insomuch as speccing for condition stacking or other speciality traits, but mostly because I solo all the time and I need to have a high survivability with that in mind.

I consider that destroying the enemy is paramount, then I can work on healing others otherwise you have 2 bodies instead of one. Real world army theory is that it is better to injure than kill an opponent since it takes more resources to take care of an injured enemy than a dead one.

So if you consider that the only means of ‘support’ you can give to others is healing (since in my mind that is the only support one can give) then yes. Solo players HAVE to be selfish since we are almost always without our own support. If you widen the meaning to be ‘getting enemies away from an injured/dead player so you can heal him’, then there is nothing really selfish about that.

You need the objective done, other players are worth many times a fallen NPC, so it only makes sense to heal them first.

A player playing the game and setting up their character in the way that makes the game fun for them is not selfish in the negative sense. They paid for the game and they can spec into anything they want.

A smart player will adapt as needed while playing though as the game requires being adaptable to survive many encounters.

I disagree with coming down on DPS guardians though, I am firmly on the side that all classes in GW2 can be either DPS or Support if they want to.

Players should consider doing what they are the best at. If someone can pull of high dps by timing their skills right then he or she should go for that. Also, support isnt exactly something you have to spec into. Plenty of skills have side effects like blind or snares, so even the most dps orrianted player throws in some conditions that help the team, even if its by triggering a combo field.

With that being said, you dont exactly “need” support win in this game either(may it be pvp or pve).
Being able to play skillfully (know when to dodge, who to target, how to counter enemies abilites etc.) + ressing downed team mates is so much more important.

So really, the only way a player can be selfish is when they know they suck and refuse to learn but still expect people to carry them without wanting to better themselves.

I character equipped mostly/totally for positive conditions/healing… how hard would that be to play solo? I can’t imagine how you’d make it through.

Thats why I have no intention of starting a light armour class character.

I don’t think everyone should be required to run a support, or even part support build.

Especially since, as other people have said DPS can act as support. If I’m getting swamped by a mob and someone else comes along and wipes them out (or even kills off a few to even out the numbers) I’d consider that a form of support. Definately it’s being helpful and not selfish.

If you’re doing something as a group then I think you should take some time to talk about what you’ll need and what each person is going to be doing, but even then it doesn’t mean everyone has to be support, it’s up to the group to decide what builds would be helpful.

If everyone specs support, who will be dealing actual, meaningful damage?

Clearly damage dealers are needed, not everyone should be supporting.

Personally I stack DPS stats and use combo fields as my primary form of support (ranger traps)

GuzziHero.2467:

I character equipped mostly/totally for positive conditions/healing… how hard would that be to play solo? I can’t imagine how you’d make it through.

Thats why I have no intention of starting a light armour class character.

Why not?

My elementalist rocks, there are many ways to protect yourself even with low armor rating.

What gets me is why a heavy armor wearing warrior isn’t drowning when he steps into the water ;-)

As I do with Thieves Guild and Ambush, to try and direct fire elsewhere while I get the job done and/or heal folks. Offence can be the best part of defence.

Shaquira Lowlands.7839:

Why not?

My elementalist rocks, there are many ways to protect yourself even with low armor rating.

I just don’t know enough about the character traits, I guess. I’ll go take a look later.

My problem is, I can’t TS/Skype and play at the same time. Anti-social disorders prevent that. So I guess doing dungeon raids is out for me :’(

It’s a tricky question. Calling someone a selfish player because they don’t specc support is a dumb idea, especially since it’s not vital to finish a dungeon. Besides, just because you’re not directly buffing your allies does NOT mean that you’re useless to the team.

As an ele I make sure to have survivability so that I’m not a constant liability to the team. I also make it a point to take full advantage of my cc skills which tends to help everyone in my group.

To me the idea of a selfish player is someone who doesn’t rezz from downed state, who doesn’t make an effort to avoid danger, who uses 3 skills instead of 10, who doesn’t pay attention to his surroundings… If someone wants you to run the build that THEY think you should have, then I would say they are the selfish ones.

Gluttony.2017:

With that being said, you dont exactly “need” support win in this game either(may it be pvp or pve).

I am a new 80, so I don’t know really. But is this true?

Can you do -say- Arah story mode with 5 people that are all DPSers and don’t support others at all?

Tallis.5607:

Gluttony.2017:

With that being said, you dont exactly “need” support win in this game either(may it be pvp or pve).

I am a new 80, so I don’t know really. But is this true?

Can you do -say- Arah story mode with 5 people that are all DPSers and don’t support others at all?

Arenanet says they designed the game so you can do just that

Like going in with 5 warriors

It may be easier if you have characters upplementing each other, but is is not required.

There is only one type of Selfish Player in my eyes.

The one that keeps plucking away with the auto-attack against enemies, while they have downed allies around them. Not that they are trying to stay alive, but rather they keep attacking instead of reviving downed (not dead) allies. Scenarios where they have no creatures attacking them, or even being a threat, yet they don’t even pay attention to the downed ally at their feet.

Most of my support tends to be an afterthought, if any thought is given to it at all. My Restorative Mantras gives out AoE healing when I charge a Mantra, sure, but I grabbed it to work with Mender’s Purity on Mantra of Recovery for a decent heal that cures 2 conditions AND still compares to a 3x Illusions Ether Feast in total amount healed. Ranged Projectiles in dungeons? I’ll swap a few traits and utilities and load up on all the Reflects I have. This protects me, while helping kill the enemy faster as well. The fact it also prevents damage from allies is a side-benefit … usually. Staff’s Winds of Chaos along with Clones giving Might and Fury to melee allies next to the target? Side-benefit, as I’m aiming towards stacking Conditions to help take down the target.

In fact, the only purely Supportive decision I ever make is where to drop a Chaos Storm as a Mesmer.
In general PvE, its not support but rather dropped on Enemies for tagging in DEs.
In group settings? Its purely support/defensive, being dropped on Downed Allies so I can start reviving them, even if they are being attacked, and relying on Aegis procs for the both of us for defense.

That said, if you enter a fight knowingly you didn’t equip certain traits/utilities you have that can make the fight easier, all for a small DPS increase, … well thats leaning more towards idiocy then selfishness.

Now if you expect one specific class to always Support you, without any communication or prior planning, all because they are say … a Guardian? Thats being Selfish.

Shaquira Lowlands.7839:

Tallis.5607:

Gluttony.2017:

With that being said, you dont exactly “need” support win in this game either(may it be pvp or pve).

I am a new 80, so I don’t know really. But is this true?

Can you do -say- Arah story mode with 5 people that are all DPSers and don’t support others at all?

Arenanet says they designed the game so you can do just that

Like going in with 5 warriors

It may be easier if you have characters upplementing each other, but is is not required.

It is possible, I did it myself a few times and I wouldnt even call myself an expert. As I said, knowing the fight is a lot more important then having a support. Support just makes it a bit easier by giving out some life regen/might while throwing out some combo fields while adding medicore dps, but in the end you cant heal/support stupidity :P

MLieBennett.9031:

There is only one type of Selfish Player in my eyes.

The one that keeps plucking away with the auto-attack against enemies, while they have downed allies around them. Not that they are trying to stay alive, but rather they keep attacking instead of reviving downed (not dead) allies. Scenarios where they have no creatures attacking them, or even being a threat, yet they don’t even pay attention to the downed ally at their feet.

Most of my support tends to be an afterthought, if any thought is given to it at all. My Restorative Mantras gives out AoE healing when I charge a Mantra, sure, but I grabbed it to work with Mender’s Purity on Mantra of Recovery for a decent heal that cures 2 conditions AND still compares to a 3x Illusions Ether Feast in total amount healed. Ranged Projectiles in dungeons? I’ll swap a few traits and utilities and load up on all the Reflects I have. This protects me, while helping kill the enemy faster as well. The fact it also prevents damage from allies is a side-benefit … usually. Staff’s Winds of Chaos along with Clones giving Might and Fury to melee allies next to the target? Side-benefit, as I’m aiming towards stacking Conditions to help take down the target.

In fact, the only purely Supportive decision I ever make is where to drop a Chaos Storm as a Mesmer.
In general PvE, its not support but rather dropped on Enemies for tagging in DEs.
In group settings? Its purely support/defensive, being dropped on Downed Allies so I can start reviving them, even if they are being attacked, and relying on Aegis procs for the both of us for defense.

That said, if you enter a fight knowingly you didn’t equip certain traits/utilities you have that can make the fight easier, all for a small DPS increase, … well thats leaning more towards idiocy then selfishness.

Now if you expect one specific class to always Support you, without any communication or prior planning, all because they are say … a Guardian? Thats being Selfish.

Rethink the situation.

My friends are on the floor, I am the only one alive, the enemy is facing me with it’s evil eyes and a small amount of health left, I am in the same situation. If I help my friends, I will die, for sure. I take a deep breath in and fight with all my might. The enemy is slain and all my friends instantly rally.

So, now what do you think? My friend dies an awful lot and instead of reviving them, I kill the mob so they rally.

Just depends on the timing. If you can score a kill, do it..obviously. But if a kill isn’t coming any time soon, and an ally is down, best to rally them manually imo.

Selfish builds are perfectly fine. If everyone were support things would be safer, but really slow. A variety is often the best solution.

need to get away from the conception that raw dps is a selfish build. high dps groups can perform exceptionally well, in much less time.

selfish players is whats already been stated, not taking the chance to revive a downed ally, pulling extra mobs, being rude, skipping ahead with no explanation etc…

What people need to realize that increasing damage of ~three guys is usually better than increasing damage of just one guy.

I think it’s selfish to try and dictate what other players can do.

Yeah, those horrible people who try to make the team work better so that the group actually can beat the dungeon.

Support isnt hard to bring, as a full dps type character bring some….

Immobilize, the mob cant turn around and usually it interrupts its attack animation, although that may be a bug, but it slows down incomming damage

Blind, next hit misses

Weakness, take less damage

Fear, its really nice to fear enemies into a corner or against a wall and keep them all together

Knockback, same reason as fear

Any amount of CC, generally if you can spam your CC on cooldown it helps a little, even if only 1 in 6 actually work. It is fairly easy to CC lock a mob between 3 people using thier CCs on cooldown, and I run a hammer build in dungeons for this reason

So, looking above your DPS build doesnt have to spec into healing, or giving boons to allies,or being fully tanky to be supportive at all, those things really do help a dungeon group

Just a little example of how support can be more useful than a ‘selfish’ build:
Imagine you having 2 different skills/traits:
One gives your character +50 power.
The other gives all nearby allies +20 power.
And apply this situation in a dungeon party. The ‘selfish’ player will have higher DPS output than it would have using support. However, the supportive player gives everyone in the party extra DPS and speeds up the killing process.

Or another situation:
Imagine two players killing a monster with plenty of HP left. One player goes down, the other is still alive.
A selfish player would continue hacking at a monster, and miss out on the DPS a second player would add.
A supportive player would revive the downed player, and have two people DPS on the boss again, bringing it down much faster.

Another situation:
In a dungeon, a party is fighting a powerful monster. The monster is about to down several party members.
The selfish player would continue hacking at the monster, while having several of his teammates going down, losing out on a ton of extra DPS and support.
The supportive player would drop down a reflective shield, a healing field, an interrupt or whatever to save its teammates from going down. The party will continue to live, and kill the monster much faster that way.

How about instead of calling out the “selfish” player, we call out the “ignorant” player? By which I mean players that think there’s such a thing as a “DPS Guardian” and a “Support Guardian” and the difference between them is clearly delineated. Let me make something clear:

There is no pure support Guardian that doesn’t deal damage.

There is no pure damage Guardian that doesn’t provide support.

If you’re the type of Guardian who hangs in the back and waits for the right time to use Sanctuary or Staff Empower and never does anything else, you are wasting your resources. You aren’t a “Support Guardian;” you’re just wasting your abilities. Damage and defense and support all work together, and just about every single Guardian spec in the game emphasizes this synergy.

Similarly, even if you play a pure Spirit Weapons build in dungeons (and I did, with great success), you are never without party support. I provided party support through Empowering Might; I provide it through hard knockdowns, through Purging Flames or Stand Your Ground, and through timely use of my Virtues—which every Guardian has.

We really need to fight back against this pernicious and fallacious argument that there’s such a thing as a “DPS spec” and a “Support spec” and these two things are somehow mutually exclusive, and that professions traited for heavy damage offer no aid to the rest of the party and are somehow selfish.

I cannot begin to overemphasize just how immensely damaging this kind of thinking is to the metagame, the community, and especially to newbies, who just don’t know any better and will take your word for it.

As a Guardian you can spec into GS and trait for support OR you can trait into pure DPS. The same applies for every other profession.

I’m sorry. I don’t usually say things like this, but this quote is SO wrong. It’s so categorically and completely wrong that it’s actually damaging. Don’t spread this kind of misinformation.

I find it really hard to be “selfish” in this game, but that’s just me. Damage or not, everyone can do something (and rez!).

DPS is part of support.
Killing stuff before it can wipe the team is support.
It’s not being selfish, one just decided a role for self.
I want to be the guy gibbing stuff before they can cause problems. Am I not free to do so?

I’m tired of seeing Wammo-style Warriors with no damage “but hey I’m healing you for 1 mob hit every 20s”.
I’m tired of seeing full tanks or full supports trying (and failing) to apply the trinity to GW2.

Everyone needs to do everything: DPS, support and tank.

I play a Staff Ele speced for Dammage (Power, Precision and Crit) Yet I still do plenty of Support. I switch Elements to through in Healing, Chilling, Vunerability, Blindness, Crippling, even though my primary damage is via Fire wich is basicly all damage.

Just because my Support abilities arn’t maxed doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

That said, I wish they would give us the option to have a second Spec (Traits) because when I do dungeons I would rather increase my ability to use bennificial abilities instead of just dammage which has a tendency to get the bosses angry at me more.

You specced your toon wrong your out of the group attidude is selfish imo.
For me I spec that works for me and if I find the spec be faulty or not doing that good I respec simple as that.

Evening, There actually are specs that have little/no support, especially with how they get played. And while that isn’t the case in the majority of cases, as most people probably have some basic understanding of group synergy… they are out there.

Players should play however they want to. If they succeed, they probably do it right, if they fail, they need to adjust. Apart from me not considering “selfish” being a bad thing, why do you think support players have to be less “selfish” in any way? They want to win just as everyone else, just use a different approach than dps. The tagging mechanic is really a roadblock in this regard, but you do not enter dungeons to tag a lot (at least I hope so, mob farming in dungeon difficulty seems silly to me) and map PVE is just so simple build doesn´t matter anyway in groups.

Your build cannot define you as selfish. Now if you pass by some poor downed guy with out a second though, that’s another story.

I’m pretty much a pure support build. It also happens to be the most survivable build I’ve played (engineer) I do pretty good damage, and can handle pretty much everything the game throws at me with the exception of soloing a few of the harder champs.

I have no problem playing in a group environment, and if the melee classes stay close, I can pretty much keep them up and and alive if they use their own heal on occasion. (rare occasion)

Being the build I am, I don’t see power builds as selfish at all, simply because it takes a lot less time to kill things as a group with a few in them.

I do wish people would try more variety. In all honesty however, my first build was Berserker, I ran pure power and crit. My damage now is still comparable, though not as good to be honest, but my survivability is so much higher…that I would consider it selfish if everyone had my build! I can manage solo in WvW and PvE and I still have major contributions in a group. I can keep an unlimited amount decently specced melee players up and going when they would wipe. So I know I can contribute in a group setting, even though I chose my build for selfish reasons…

or if you dont want a dps spec’d guardian, when your shouting for somebody in /map, be sure to shout for a support role.