Guild Wars 2

As nearly everyone knows, the current PvE meta heavily favors Berserker/Assassin’s damage-heavy builds. The issue is that it comes at the expanse of everything else. While it is incredibly difficult to completely balance each class, it isn’t incredibly hard to counter a meta. League of Legends does this all of the time; something is found to be overpowered or underpowered, and Riot generally changes it to be competitive. So why is Zerk/Assassin the defacto build after all this time? Because nothing else works as well.

Why? Because each profession is capable of being more or less self-sufficient.

You can’t operate as a “tank” or “healer” without being chastised, especially in high level fractals, because you’re not really helping the group. A warrior can heal themselves about as well as any other class, although some classes may have more healing skills than others. A Necromancer can take a hit about as well as a guardian or warrior in a high-level fractal (30+). There’s no need for healers or tanks in this game, yet Cleric or Knight or Sentinel or Rabid armor still exists as if people use them all the time. Between self-heals and active defense like dodging, you don’t (or shouldn’t) really need help staying alive.

My point is that those stats (everything except power, precision, and ferocity) should either be invisible to players and the focus should be on players maximizing their damage output OR the game should be changed to allow those sorts of builds and attributes to be useful. The former is incredibly restricting and becomes a game of “I deal damage with a sword instead of a mace,” while the latter becomes “my character’s role in a group is vastly different than yours and I need you in my group just as much as you need me!”

How can the latter option come to fruition? First, Arenanet has to decide whether or not the classes can be highly mobile and reply on active defense or if some should be more mobile than others, i.e. why a guardian is as mobile as a thief. A thief should have more endurance to dodge with while a guardian should be able to heal better and endure far more damage.

I think in trying to upset the current state of MMORPGs, ANet went too far in the “it’s different!” direction and didn’t stop to think quite how things would end up. That is, we have a bunch of “different” classes/professions that all wind up fulfilling the same role in every group. At the most basic leve, how is a thief different from a warrior or ranger? Because it can stealth? Because it can use daggers? In the end, it’s purpose in a group setting is the exact same as the ranger or warriors or elementalists – deal damage. I personally think that should change.

Incoming bunch of people hate on you cause you mentioned the word Trinity.

I stopped reading fairly quickly when you assume other stats are irrelevant. GW2 is a game that does not have the “holy” trinity. It never will, the vast majority of players dont want it, and there’s plenty of other games out there to if YOU want the “holy” trinity.
(and before I go any further, dont make the mistake of comparing a MOBA to an MMORPG, different genre, different needs, VASTLY different needs
)
GW2 is a game where those that want to be healers can be healers, while actually being able to do damage. It’s also a game where other classes DONT NEED A HEALER to survive. It also has almost no need for a “tank and spank” build because active defenses (and boons) means each player is able to actively defend themselves. There is no mentality of “great, we’re 4/5 for this dungeon, now we can sit here for 2 kittening hours waiting for a healer.” That kitten got old real fast in GW1. It’s why I MADE a monk in GW1. I got tired of waiting forever for a monk to come along. I dont want that again, and the vast majority of players dont want that again.

Second, your example is a moot point because that’s pretty kitten true now. Thieves are by far more mobile than a guardian ever will be. Thieves have traits (at the moment) available to them that allow them to regain endurance incredibly fast. Additionally, their weapon skills are awash in mobility. Use em. FURTHER, guardians can endure quite a lot of damage if you build properly and know what you’re looking for. My guardian can have 24-30k health and a near 50% critical rate with the two builds I’m tinkering with her. Guardians cant endure more damage you say? I can sit there and pick someone up and ignore mai trin on high level fractals.

Finally, if you think no class is able to bring things that other classes cant, I honestly dont think you do anything other than sit in LA chatting in /m. There is no need for a paradigm shift in classes in the way you desire, because in the end, you’re asking for another wowclone.

This topic again lol. It hasn’t even been a week since the last one.

You’re right in that all classes share the role of damage dealer. What you missed is that all classes share the role of support. With the latter, each class offers group support differently making it worth having a more diverse group rather than taking five of the highest dps class. I’d say playing guardian effectively vs playing thief effectively is more interesting than playing healer vs playing tank.

Other stats are relevant, true, but are fairly less active/useful when you reach a certain skill treshold. Toughness becomes less relevant when one has enough stat-unaligned active defenses (blocks, blinds, reflects,) that dealing damage becomes more important to finish an encounter before those run out. Vitality similarly.

My point is that those stats (everything except power, precision, and ferocity) should either be invisible to players and the focus should be on players maximizing their damage output OR the game should be changed to allow those sorts of builds and attributes to be useful. The former is incredibly restricting and becomes a game of “I deal damage with a sword instead of a mace,” while the latter becomes “my character’s role in a group is vastly different than yours and I need you in my group just as much as you need me!

The OP’s assumption that “everything else” is sacrificed assumes that the game is built on dedicated roles. it isn’t. It’s built on professions acting as play styles. Gear serves to distinguish whether one’s approach to damage is via conditions, a hybrid or via direct damage. Gear’s other purpose is to promote either a damage heavy or survival heavy setup, based on individual skill with active defense and what mode(s) one is playing. It’s also possible to create a hybrid setup with respect to glass/bulk gear using either mixed prefix gear pieces or hybrid prefixes like Clerics and Knights.

The OP is guilty of an illogical assumption, that all gear prefixes ought to be equally relevant in all portions of the game and for all players. This is not so. His thread is nothing but another demand for dedicated roles, something the game is not designed for, and which was advertised well before launch.

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 is a game where those that want to be healers can be healers, while actually being able to do damage.

There is one things tho, everyone can be a healer but there are no good healers, everyone can be a tank but there are no good tanks, every class is just average with some minor advantage on its specialization.

If you had a broken pc who would you prefer to fix it, someone who has done some pc fixing while also being a gardener and baker or someone who is professional with pc problems?

What is your profession?

Some people don’t play to be average, I like being specialized and shine in one thing in games and leave other aspects to people who are specialized there.

Aidan Savage.2078:

I stopped reading fairly quickly when you assume other stats are irrelevant. GW2 is a game that does not have the “holy” trinity. It never will, the vast majority of players dont want it, and there’s plenty of other games out there to if YOU want the “holy” trinity.

That is a terrible argument, so let me wipe it off the board in one fell swoop. What the players want is irrelevant when the game’s class and combat system is clearly broken. What this game needs is a fix, regardless if what the player “think” they want. The OP is addressing the game’s problems, and comparing with MMO’s that did manage to make their combat and class system work. I think that is entirely valid. So stop getting all upset when someone mentions the word Trinity. You might as well use the word “roles”. It is the same thing really. The game needs different roles from just doing damage. The OP is correct that the current meta is incredibly boring, and the game encourages it.

Aidan Savage.2078:

GW2 is a game where those that want to be healers can be healers, while actually being able to do damage. It’s also a game where other classes DONT NEED A HEALER to survive.

Correction, it is a game where healers have no role at all. So no one plays a healer. Everyone plays a damage dealer, and that’s it.

Aidan Savage.2078:

It also has almost no need for a “tank and spank” build because active defenses (and boons) means each player is able to actively defend themselves.

Not just that. The game lacks proper aggro mechanics, and fails to challenge the players to a point where tanking and aggro management is required. That is why tank and spank doesn’t work in this game. The majority of defenses completely negate what ever offense the monsters might bring. So either the players have too much defense, or the monsters have little offense. Either way, there’s no tanking because the combat is a mess, and way too easy. The game does not challenge the players enough. There’s very little in the game that cannot be overcome by simply spamming attacks and dodging occasionally. The game fails to challenge the players to build around obstacles. In GW1 you adjusted the skills of your party according to the mission you were about to do. People would ask for specific skills on specific classes, in order to beat the odds. GW2 does not do that, which is why the combat is so boring.

Aidan Savage.2078:

There is no mentality of “great, we’re 4/5 for this dungeon, now we can sit here for 2 kittening hours waiting for a healer.” That kitten got old real fast in GW1. It’s why I MADE a monk in GW1. I got tired of waiting forever for a monk to come along. I dont want that again, and the vast majority of players dont want that again.

None of us enjoy that, but that is not what the OP is talking about. The OP wants more to the combat than just damage. Giving more roles to players, does not necessarily equal having to wait for a healer in an outpost. In fact, GW2 is already set up in such a way that anyone could easily switch to that role. The real problem, is that there is no role for healers in the current broken combat system.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Finally, if you think no class is able to bring things that other classes cant, I honestly dont think you do anything other than sit in LA chatting in /m. There is no need for a paradigm shift in classes in the way you desire, because in the end, you’re asking for another wowclone.

You assume he wants a wowclone, because you are unable to wrap your head around the idea that there is something fundamentally wrong with GW2’s basic combat system, that could be fixed.

Well i don’’t want to sound mean but what do you expect from company that has managed to break such epic game like Lineage 2 to the point that there are way way more players playing on private servers old chronicles of it than actual players on ncsofts server even bots included. Tell me that’’s not a good argument?

smfc.4570:

There is one things tho, everyone can be a healer but there are no good healers, everyone can be a tank but there are no good tanks, every class is just average with some minor advantage on its specialization.

There’s more to it than that. You can be a healer, but there is nothing in the game that requires a dedicated healer. All damage can be overcome by self sustained healing. No one is dependent on their party members. Arguably it’s mostly the boon spamming from guardians and warriors that makes a big difference, plus perhaps reflection for some encounters. But other than that, it’s pretty much a free for all, with very little to challenge the players.

Tanking can be done by most classes, but tanking in the game is nearly impossible. First of all, you don’t need to tank, because defensive boons are spammed instantly across the whole party with very little cost. So it’s not just one player that is tanking. But even if one player wanted to be the tank, how would you keep aggro? The game’s dungeons have very few choke points, and aggro control is none existent. It’s a mess. So even if you wanted to tank, you couldn’t.

Aggro priorities are also a big mess. If I have a bunch of zerker gear melee party members in my party, that are obliterating a bunch of monsters. Guess who the monsters are most likely to attack? Me of course! The necromancer who maxed out her toughness. So even if you build defensively, the game punishes you for it. You’d think that it would make more sense for monsters to focus on squishy characters, or characters that are the biggest threat to them. But that doesn’t seem to be the case. Frankly, the system is so nontransparent that players have no clue what is going on, and just focus on dealing damage. At least in GW1 you could kite, and pull, because the aggro system made sense, and you could reliably body block monsters.

smfc.4570:

Well i don’’t want to sound mean but what do you expect from company that has managed to break such epic game like Lineage 2 to the point that there are way way more players playing on private servers old chronicles of it than actual players on ncsofts server even bots included. Tell me that’’s not a good argument?

Lineage II is developed and published by NCSoft. Guild Wars 2 is developed by Arenanet and published by NCSoft. If the game is broken, it’s Arenanet’s fault, and not NCSoft’s fault.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

smfc.4570:

There is one things tho, everyone can be a healer but there are no good healers, everyone can be a tank but there are no good tanks, every class is just average with some minor advantage on its specialization.

There’s more to it than that. You can be a healer, but there is nothing in the game that requires a dedicated healer. All damage can be overcome by self sustained healing. No one is dependent on their party members. Arguably it’s mostly the boon spamming from guardians and warriors that makes a big difference, plus perhaps reflection for some encounters. But other than that, it’s pretty much a free for all, with very little to challenge the players.

Tanking can be done by most classes, but tanking in the game is nearly impossible. First of all, you don’t need to tank, because defensive boons are spammed instantly across the whole party with very little cost. So it’s not just one player that is tanking. But even if one player wanted to be the tank, how would you keep aggro? The game’s dungeons have very few choke points, and aggro control is none existent. It’s a mess. So even if you wanted to tank, you couldn’t.

In a game that was never supposed to have traditional tanking and dedicated healing, is this really a surprise?

It’s sort of shocking how many people complain that they can’t reasonably play dedicated tanks and healers in a game that was never built around having a dedicated tank or healer.

Now, one thing I somewhat agree on – from your other post – is the need to differentiate how players approach encounters (something that the Trinity wouldn’t actually achieve since you’d still have to approach the encounter with a set group composition).

I don’t think having required, dedicated roles is the way to approach it though.

smfc.4570:

Well i don’’t want to sound mean but what do you expect from company that has managed to break such epic game like Lineage 2 to the point that there are way way more players playing on private servers old chronicles of it than actual players on ncsofts server even bots included. Tell me that’’s not a good argument?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:Lineage II is developed and published by NCSoft. Guild Wars 2 is developed by Arenanet and published by NCSoft. If the game is broken, it’s Arenanet’s fault, and not NCSoft’s fault.

Well i can argue that, 4game in Russia made classic L2 official server with draw back to hardcore, as i see it they overdone it with grind but theta not the point, point is that that it is possible to listen to what players want to see in game and make servers for that, if you ofc are interested to put effort in it. Only reason im not playing there is cos you will be most of the time ignored in any chat if you don’t write in Russian.
If 4game can why can’t Ncsoft?
https://ru.4game.com/lineage2classic/install/

IndigoSundown.5419:

The OP is guilty of an illogical assumption, that all gear prefixes ought to be equally relevant in all portions of the game and for all players.

I don’t think that is what the OP is saying at all. I think what he’s saying, is that all gear prefixes should have a purpose in the game. Not all portions. But at least ONE portion. If you have gear prefixes that are irrelevant, then why are they in the game at all? You might as well only have zerker gear, if the game only revolves around dealing damage…. which seems to be the case.

IndigoSundown.5419:

His thread is nothing but another demand for dedicated roles, something the game is not designed for, and which was advertised well before launch.

That’s an assumption that immediately seems flawed to me. I think what the OP is pointing out, is that without roles the game’s combat feels shallow and lacking. Many other MMO’s managed to make their combat engaging and tactical, either by giving the players roles, or in other ways. But GW2 only has damage, and that’s it. I think he’s right to demand more. Lets stop pretending that GW2’s combat is good. It’s not.

I love that I can dodge roll, and cast while moving. I love that there is a strong focus on action. But the combat as a whole lacks depth and strategy. It’s a game of whack-a-mole with fancy graphics right now, but it could be so much more.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Now, one thing I somewhat agree on – from your other post – is the need to differentiate how players approach encounters (something that the Trinity wouldn’t actually achieve since you’d still have to approach the encounter with a set group composition).

I don’t think having required, dedicated roles is the way to approach it though.

Well that is an interesting point, and I agree. I think there are multiple ways to tackle this issue, and dedicated roles is merely the most common way to do it (but definitely not the only way). I personally prefer new things, and I suspect that is one of the reasons why many of us wanted to play this game: To try something new.

So if we want to solve this issue, I think we need to look not only at other games that were successful (by implementing a trinity), but also at other ways in which more strategy could be added to the current combat system. The basic mechanics of GW2 seem alright, but a lot of the additional mechanics seem all over the place. I also notice that many of the game’s mechanics don’t have much of an effect on the game’s combat. There are a few that have a big impact (such as invulnerability, stability and reflection) and others that have a very minor effect. I also get the impression that the game allows the players to spam these abilities far too often, and thus the need for proper timing seems to go wasted.

For example, as a necromancer I have traited my wells so they grant protection to a limited number of allies. Now this is already a problem, because even on paper this sounds inferior to any skill that gives protection to ALL ALLIES. But never the less, there never seems to be any need in the game for the players to stand inside my well. Players don’t even seem to notice that they have protection on them. That is how little of a dent this ability seems to make on overall PVE combat (its effects are probably better felt in WvW in large scale battles). So yeah, its nice that my wells give protection, but no one cares. So how can we make people care?

Compare this to a game like Dungeons & Dragons online, where the entire party casts Protection from Acid on each other, right before fighting the giant acid breathing Black Dragon, and you can see a clear difference in the usefulness of certain mechanics. GW2 does not use its mechanics enough. They often feel like fluff, rather than that they have a purpose or a role.

But there’s even more to it than that. The entire topic of combat in an MMO is a very complicated beast, from a game design point of view. I can’t cover everything that is wrong about GW2’s combat in merely one post. Nor do I know how to fix it. I don’t think there are miracle cures. But I think I know where they could start.

Positioning

Positioning seems to have little purpose in GW2. I don’t get the impression that flanking an enemy does a whole lot most of the time. It could be made more important.

Everyone also stacks on top of each other, both in dungeons and in WvW. This is because of the way boons work. What Anet could do, is add more abilities that encourage players to spread out more. This means giving monsters more aoe attacks, and maybe they should bring back the classic Spiteful Spirit (this would instantly give necromancers a purpose in dungeons, and encourage the idea of moving enemies into a position). Also, some aoe knockback attacks would also help.

Height differences could be given a purpose, by removing the godawful invulnerability mechanic, that makes monsters invincible when they can’t get to you.

Shorter more powerful abilities

I think enemies should hit harder, and defensive abilities should last shorter, but reduce more damage. There are too many boons right now that stay for too long. Players should be encouraged more to time their boons against specific attacks from monsters.

Control skills should be given a role in PVE combat

It seems like very little thought was put into control skills. Why would I want to fear an enemy away, when my goal is to kill that enemy? Wouldn’t that just annoy the heck out of my party? (short answer: YES) So about time they thought this through, and came up with a plan to make control skills a part of the combat. It’s not enough to merely include a mechanic in the game. You have to give it a purpose as well.

If control skills are interrupts, what do I need to interrupt? If bosses are the only monsters that have attacks that are truly devastating, then why make bosses immune to them? See, these things contradict each other. Whoever designed this did not think this through very well.

Any class can fulfill any role

This sounds great on paper, but we know this isn’t true. By removing roles, the game became focused on damage numbers, and specific skills. For example, you can deal a truckload of damage by reflecting the attacks of a boss, while also protecting your party against such attacks. This has made reflection a pretty powerful ability that lots of people want to bring into high end dungeons… yet not all classes have reflection….

That seems odd. Isn’t that odd? If you really want all classes to be able to fulfill any role, and you make the game so focused on damage and specific skills, then certainly the most powerful skills should be accessible to all classes?

McNinja.5417:

You can’t operate as a “tank” or “healer” without being chastised, especially in high level fractals, because you’re not really helping the group. A warrior can heal themselves about as well as any other class, although some classes may have more healing skills than others. A Necromancer can take a hit about as well as a guardian or warrior in a high-level fractal (30+). There’s no need for healers or tanks in this game, yet Cleric or Knight or Sentinel or Rabid armor still exists as if people use them all the time. Between self-heals and active defense like dodging, you don’t (or shouldn’t) really need help staying alive.

Yeah, I noticed this problem as well. While I’m generally not the sort of player that wants to dictate to other players how to play their character, I can tell when a player isn’t pulling his/her weight. I hate having a player along who is focused on healing (while I’m perfectly capable of healing myself), and then during an AC run notice that we do not have enough damage output to destroy the burrows.

McNinja.5417:

My point is that those stats (everything except power, precision, and ferocity) should either be invisible to players and the focus should be on players maximizing their damage output OR the game should be changed to allow those sorts of builds and attributes to be useful. The former is incredibly restricting and becomes a game of “I deal damage with a sword instead of a mace,” while the latter becomes “my character’s role in a group is vastly different than yours and I need you in my group just as much as you need me!”

This goes along with what I pointed out as well, if the stats serve no purpose, you might as well not have them at all. If it is only about dealing damage (which is the case right now) the combat is incredibly boring. The stats must all have a purpose.

McNinja.5417:

How can the latter option come to fruition? First, Arenanet has to decide whether or not the classes can be highly mobile and reply on active defense or if some should be more mobile than others, i.e. why a guardian is as mobile as a thief. A thief should have more endurance to dodge with while a guardian should be able to heal better and endure far more damage.

I’ve never understood why a heavy armor class that already has access to invulnerability, also has access to extra endurance, so they can also dodge more.

McNinja.5417:

I think in trying to upset the current state of MMORPGs, ANet went too far in the “it’s different!” direction and didn’t stop to think quite how things would end up. That is, we have a bunch of “different” classes/professions that all wind up fulfilling the same role in every group. At the most basic level, how is a thief different from a warrior or ranger? Because it can stealth? Because it can use daggers? In the end, it’s purpose in a group setting is the exact same as the ranger or warriors or elementalists – deal damage. I personally think that should change.

They basically stripped the traditional MMO of roles, and then ended up with nothing, because they didn’t add enough of their own. Removing roles is easy. But you need to replace it with something else, or else it’s just a game where you whack enemies till they stop moving. An MMO needs more strategy and depth in its combat system, but that requires a lot of thought. I get the impression that they just threw a lot of stuff at the wall, hoping that some of it would stick.

I have to wonder if maybe they just want to live a less grindy dev life themselves so they’ve made the game absurdly basic. That’s probably a bit of what happened. GW1 probably had too many boring meetings due to all the depth, so they decided to make GW2 a simplistic game that adds more hamster wheels like dailies and world completion and ascended gear, but no robust team play content, builds, or the like.

understadn with the incoming changes, you will now lose DPS based on armor choice not on trait choice. the time Support builds were potentially dangeours due to the amount of aggro they pulled is over. Better be fglad support is now easily available.

Also the weapons sets previously hidden in unusefull trait lines will scale the same ways as power/precision line based weapons…

mace on warrior or guard could be more then viable al of a sudden… or hammer.

If there became a dependency on other roles or builds, I’d get up and leave. The game marketing itself as a game without dependency on roles is specifically why I took any interest in the title whatsoever to begin with.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYBoQCTK8YadNMZglIDAdOA

I like being able to play any role I want…. even though I just about always choose DPS

DeceiverX.8361:

If there became a dependency on other roles or builds, I’d get up and leave. The game marketing itself as a game without dependency on roles is specifically why I took any interest in the title whatsoever to begin with.

When you get down to it, every group is dependent on 1 role: damage. If you’re not dealing enough damage you’re not pulling your weight.

It’s a problem that is intrinsic to the game’s design. There’s no aggro control, no dedicated healing, etc. It’s one reason why I want dual-spec options in the game, similar to what WoW had – you could switch between healing traits and damage traits or damage and tanking or whatever, and the group wouldn’t be forced to wait on that one last healer or tank they need and waste and hour of game time.

Some people only ever have that 1 hour to play, and they want to do the dungeon or fractal ASAP so they can get their Pristine fractal relic or that 1 thing they need for the (incredibly stupid) time-gated material.

So being able to switch builds, even between direct damage and damage over time, would be a huge boon to the game. I think ANet said they were adding a Taunt mechanic into the game in the new expansion. If so, that solves part of one problem, but leaves the others open.

Mainly that you could bring 5 thieves into a fractal and they could progress as quickly as five Guardians…..

I had originally thought that wasn’t good, but now that I think about it, that’s not a bad thing. the difference is, as I said in the OP, is that there’s very little, other than spells/skills, to differentiate the class. Why do you need a thief in the part? Why do you need a guardian? Do the fractals or dungeons make good use of their specialized skills or is every single dungeon a game of “hit it until it stops moving them move further along the hallway?”

That’s the problem that needs solving. A point for each profession in dungeons and fractals other than different ways to deal damage.

I take it you missed the ready up stream in which they showed some very interesting non damage related designs

There’s non-damage related designs? Not interested.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The OP is guilty of an illogical assumption, that all gear prefixes ought to be equally relevant in all portions of the game and for all players.

I don’t think that is what the OP is saying at all. I think what he’s saying, is that all gear prefixes should have a purpose in the game. Not all portions. But at least ONE portion. If you have gear prefixes that are irrelevant, then why are they in the game at all? You might as well only have zerker gear, if the game only revolves around dealing damage…. which seems to be the case.

Name one gear prefix that is irrelevant to all players in every game mode. The OP is asking for more gear prefixes to be “relevant” in the dungeon meta, the only game mode where gear prefix is an issue. If various prefixes are relevant elsewhere, then the place where they are perceived not to be is the obvious target. There’s also the fact that parties complete dungeons all the time with the participants wearing what they want. This reduces the scope of the point from dungeons to dungeon Pug Meta parties.

IndigoSundown.5419:

His thread is nothing but another demand for dedicated roles, something the game is not designed for, and which was advertised well before launch.

That’s an assumption that immediately seems flawed to me. I think what the OP is pointing out, is that without roles the game’s combat feels shallow and lacking. Many other MMO’s managed to make their combat engaging and tactical, either by giving the players roles, or in other ways. But GW2 only has damage, and that’s it. I think he’s right to demand more. Lets stop pretending that GW2’s combat is good. It’s not.

I love that I can dodge roll, and cast while moving. I love that there is a strong focus on action. But the combat as a whole lacks depth and strategy. It’s a game of whack-a-mole with fancy graphics right now, but it could be so much more.

If you review the portion of the OP that I quoted, you see him saying, "…while the latter (what he’s asking for) becomes “my character’s role in a group is vastly different than yours and I need you in my group just as much as you need me!” That’s asking for dedicated roles. How do I know? Because you can already do vastly different things in parties now, and because he (and apparently you) are ignoring these differences and focusing on which gear prefix you’re wearing. Finally, because one can do those different things in GW2 while dealing damage, the desired option would seem to be doing those things while not doing damage. Gamers who adhere to a meta will never accept that in a game where the goal is to kill mobs unless those tasks are required. That’s a human nature thing.

You may find GW2 combat to be shallow and lacking. I don’t. I know what’s going on when I switch traits, utilities and weapons. I can see the effect of these differences on effectiveness and success, and on the way the character plays.

What’s lacking in dungeons is that some of the encounters are very simple, bags of health with 2-3 moves that only require dodging. These are the functional equivalent of a “tank n’ spank” encounter in trinity games — which are the most boring thing I’ve ever done in gaming — well, except for Fedex quests.

There are some dungeon encounters that aren’t, but even those are so old that dungeon runners know them by heart. Meanwhile, ANet is trying to inject more interesting mechanics into new content, but they’re doing so without trying to break the game’s basic design — which is what you are the OP are asking for.

No thanks.

Get rid of Zerckers/Assassins gear and this should dry up these kinds of posts. But until then, I’ll have the popcorn ready.

I for one would hate to see the traditional tank/healer/dps enter GW2, but I’m beginning to wonder if that is what the game is heading for, at least in HoT based on Jon Peters’ interview of 4/23 with MMORPG

MMORPG: Specializations seem like a way for roles to be further defined in party situations. Will we be seeing support, crowd control, healing, and all those traditional roles with each different specialization?
Jon Peters: Yes, specializations tend to fill a specific role. However, part of us realigning the skill and trait system is that we’re trying to make sure the normal professions—not just with specs—have more specific roles for players to play, and more distinct playstyles to fulfill those roles. Part of our combat system is all about having the ability to change roles during combat if you need to by weapon swapping. That way, everybody can make parties and you don’t have to wait for a specific profession. Anyone can pick a specific role and try to play that way. Specializations are a way for characters to still do this, but to go a bit deeper into the control and support roles in particular to reinforce more of that kind of gameplay with this system, and with the types of new creatures and content that we’re building into the game. How these work and play out will become even more apparent when we introduce more challenging group content coming to the expansion.

dkspins.4670:

I for one would hate to see the traditional tank/healer/dps enter GW2, but I’m beginning to wonder if that is what the game is heading for, at least in HoT based on Jon Peters’ interview of 4/23 with MMORPG

MMORPG: Specializations seem like a way for roles to be further defined in party situations. Will we be seeing support, crowd control, healing, and all those traditional roles with each different specialization?
Jon Peters: Yes, specializations tend to fill a specific role. However, part of us realigning the skill and trait system is that we’re trying to make sure the normal professions—not just with specs—have more specific roles for players to play, and more distinct playstyles to fulfill those roles. Part of our combat system is all about having the ability to change roles during combat if you need to by weapon swapping. That way, everybody can make parties and you don’t have to wait for a specific profession. Anyone can pick a specific role and try to play that way. Specializations are a way for characters to still do this, but to go a bit deeper into the control and support roles in particular to reinforce more of that kind of gameplay with this system, and with the types of new creatures and content that we’re building into the game. How these work and play out will become even more apparent when we introduce more challenging group content coming to the expansion.

It won’t change anything relevant here. Tanks/healers will always be 100% viable, just relegated to the difficulty slider as it is now. Your roles are based on the trinity of this game, damage, support, and control, and that’s all that going to be affected. Though those roles will be, presumably, better defined, stuff like tanking and healing are completely irrelevant in that manner.

There’s a simple explanation for the current Meta…IT’s THE PLAYERS THAT CREATED THE CURRENT META. The players created it, the players can change it…within the existing systems ALL styles would be relevant, but people are to lazy and want to rush through everything in 5 minutes.

Anet’s design is what decides what the best builds are, the players just discover them. Viable is a meaningless term in the context of pve though because the content is solvable, meaning there’s never anything stopping you from doing the provably best strategy, so the only terms that can be applied to pve builds are optimal or not optimal.

Zaklex.6308:

There’s a simple explanation for the current Meta…IT’s THE PLAYERS THAT CREATED THE CURRENT META. The players created it, the players can change it…within the existing systems ALL styles would be relevant, but people are to lazy and want to rush through everything in 5 minutes.

Ppl rush things because they dont play for the fun, but for the gold prize in the end.

The other fact is that ppl are being fooled by this no role thing, they dont want to be forced to run like a healer or tank build, because that would be wowclone, but they seem pretty fine being forced to run a DPS build, it’s not like they want to be able to run whatever build they want, its more about not being a wowclone.

Khalisto.5780:

Zaklex.6308:

There’s a simple explanation for the current Meta…IT’s THE PLAYERS THAT CREATED THE CURRENT META. The players created it, the players can change it…within the existing systems ALL styles would be relevant, but people are to lazy and want to rush through everything in 5 minutes.

Ppl rush things because they dont play for the fun, but for the gold prize in the end.

The other fact is that ppl are being fooled by this no role thing, they dont want to be forced to run like a healer or tank build, because that would be wowclone, but they seem pretty fine being forced to run a DPS build, it’s not like they want to be able to run whatever build they want, its more about not being a wowclone.

Exactly. Even if this game renamed all of the classes to their exact match in WoW, it still wouldn’t be WoW.

And yet, everyone is seemingly fine being forced into a Berserker build because they want to do the most damage just like every other player in the game.

Not everyone. We still have some special snowflakes that refuse to believe that weapons chosen, traits chosen, and utility/elite skills chosen are also a part of builds. But they too will eventually melt under the burning heat of the meta’s fire fields.

I personally think the only thing stopping the trinity from being around is the fact we don’t have a full-on “Healer only class”. We already have DPS, Ranged classes, Tanks etc. Of course, I kinda like the ability to be self reliant on any class, and I don’t really want the trinity.

For me, I’d prefer it to not be trinity based, but there is already the possibility of players somehow using a trinity formation if they had a team of characters based on those builds (Defensive tank/Zerk Warr/Thief/Healing Engie or Ele).

As the game says, every class should be able to fill any role, I’d like to see things like, for this part of the dungeon we need a little more tanky build or supportive build, so 1 or 2 guys switch the build up for that part in special then go back to DPS or whatever build they were using.

The Trinity and gear dependency serve only to undermine the very nature of the active action based combat of gw2 that is lauded by many.

The shortcomings and problems that are touted against the current meta are almost always things that can be solved without the advent of the Trinity or remain and are exacerbated with the inclusion of Trinity.

Often enough they also fail to see the subtleties of builds. I don’t think any class is built purely for dps all or even most of the time. All of them sacrifice dps to enhance their utility and their active defense. A block, extra endurance, stun breaks, vigor are much more important to them than any healer or tank.

McNinja.5417:

DeceiverX.8361:

If there became a dependency on other roles or builds, I’d get up and leave. The game marketing itself as a game without dependency on roles is specifically why I took any interest in the title whatsoever to begin with.

When you get down to it, every group is dependent on 1 role: damage. If you’re not dealing enough damage you’re not pulling your weight.

It’s a problem that is intrinsic to the game’s design. There’s no aggro control, no dedicated healing, etc. It’s one reason why I want dual-spec options in the game, similar to what WoW had – you could switch between healing traits and damage traits or damage and tanking or whatever, and the group wouldn’t be forced to wait on that one last healer or tank they need and waste and hour of game time.

Some people only ever have that 1 hour to play, and they want to do the dungeon or fractal ASAP so they can get their Pristine fractal relic or that 1 thing they need for the (incredibly stupid) time-gated material.

So being able to switch builds, even between direct damage and damage over time, would be a huge boon to the game. I think ANet said they were adding a Taunt mechanic into the game in the new expansion. If so, that solves part of one problem, but leaves the others open.

Mainly that you could bring 5 thieves into a fractal and they could progress as quickly as five Guardians…..

I had originally thought that wasn’t good, but now that I think about it, that’s not a bad thing. the difference is, as I said in the OP, is that there’s very little, other than spells/skills, to differentiate the class. Why do you need a thief in the part? Why do you need a guardian? Do the fractals or dungeons make good use of their specialized skills or is every single dungeon a game of “hit it until it stops moving them move further along the hallway?”

That’s the problem that needs solving. A point for each profession in dungeons and fractals other than different ways to deal damage.

The content in this game is deigned to be completed regardless of party comp. It is one of the core features of this game so please understand that’s not going to change.

Also aggro control exists – I’m surprised you don’t know this yet. It exists, people use it in game and it works well if people know what they’re doing.

The game is fine. It might be surprising but the game isn’t broken and doesn’t need the “fixes” you propose.

McNinja.5417:

Khalisto.5780:

Zaklex.6308:

There’s a simple explanation for the current Meta…IT’s THE PLAYERS THAT CREATED THE CURRENT META. The players created it, the players can change it…within the existing systems ALL styles would be relevant, but people are to lazy and want to rush through everything in 5 minutes.

Ppl rush things because they dont play for the fun, but for the gold prize in the end.

The other fact is that ppl are being fooled by this no role thing, they dont want to be forced to run like a healer or tank build, because that would be wowclone, but they seem pretty fine being forced to run a DPS build, it’s not like they want to be able to run whatever build they want, its more about not being a wowclone.

Exactly. Even if this game renamed all of the classes to their exact match in WoW, it still wouldn’t be WoW.

And yet, everyone is seemingly fine being forced into a Berserker build because they want to do the most damage just like every other player in the game.

People in this game are doing dps, tank and healer all in one. And just like in every MMO out there you bring as little tanks and healers as you possibly need and stack up on as many DPS people you can possibly get in order to get things done fast.
In other MMOs this is done in a party comp. In GW2 players do this individually using their gear since they’re responsible for all 3 of these functions when it comes to their character.

There’s no difference really. The “obligatory” healer in other games translates to GW2’s obligatory healing skill.

The tank aspect translates to those moments during the fight when the boss is on you and you have to do something about it or die.

It’s not about people “just liking dps” – it’s about people liking to play effectively and not waste time.

If you only need 1 tank and 1 healer +3 dps for a certain run – why bring any more than 1 tank and 1 healer?

The same question translates in GW2’s gear choice philosophy. If I can stay alive given my skill, positioning, active defense and healing skill – why bring more tanky/healy gear?

I used to hate the idea of trinity in this game, but after playing it for a long time and then returning a trinity game, I realized just how amazing the trinity would feel in this game, and how much more engaged in the dungeons I would be.

I’m not actually asking for the change, but just pointing out that if the change ever happened, I wouldn’t be against it at all anymore.

Tolmos.8395:

I used to hate the idea of trinity in this game, but after playing it for a long time and then returning a trinity game, I realized just how amazing the trinity would feel in this game, and how much more engaged in the dungeons I would be.

I’m not actually asking for the change, but just pointing out that if the change ever happened, I wouldn’t be against it at all anymore.

I think that this is just a mechanics and difficulty issue really unless people think that it is impossible to have engaging content without Trinity.

We have had a lot of time to not only study and come up with best strategies for all dungeon content but also the time to develop any skills required to execute those strategies while taking minimum damage. It has become routine.

Aidan Savage.2078:

I stopped reading fairly quickly when you assume other stats are irrelevant. GW2 is a game that does not have the “holy” trinity. It never will, the vast majority of players dont want it.

Gear stats other than Berserker and Assassin are indeed irrelevant in GW2’s PvE whether you like it or not.

GW2 most certainly does have a trinity, it’s just not the same as other MMOs have. GW2’s trinity is: damage, control, support. The problem is though that with the right traits and the right skills selected we already have all the control and support we need, we don’t need gear for that, our capability to do support and control doesn’t rely on gear stats.
Aegis will always block an enemy’s attack regardless of your gear.
Blindness will always make the enemy miss his attack regardless of your gear.
Protection will always lower your damage income with 33% regardless of your gear.
Etc. etc. etc. you get the gist.
Meaning we are expected to focus our gear on DPS to maximize your potential and efficiency. Getting gear with any other stats than power, precision and ferocity is a waste of time (in PvE that is, obviously for WvW and PvP it’s a different story).

And please speak for yourself. You don’t speak for “the vast majority of players”. I think just as many players are unhappy with the zerker meta and would like to see a change or a return to a more traditional trinity. Personally I’m on the fence about it. I don’t mind the zerker meta but sometimes I would like to change it up and play a tank or healer for a change, but this game doesn’t allow me to do that sadly enough.

smfc.4570:

Well i don’’t want to sound mean but what do you expect from company that has managed to break such epic game like Lineage 2 to the point that there are way way more players playing on private servers old chronicles of it than actual players on ncsofts server even bots included. Tell me that’’s not a good argument?

Your so terribly wrong. Lineage 2 is their top grossing game, more then Guild Wars 2. Google it sometime, their earnings are public.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

And please speak for yourself. You don’t speak for “the vast majority of players”. I think just as many players are unhappy with the zerker meta and would like to see a change or a return to a more traditional trinity.

^this, I actually think if they got stuff a lil bit more like a traditional MMO, the game would lose like 15% to 25% of its players base, the wowclone haters. In the other hand the news that the game had been fixed would spread out so fast that the game would double the current number of customers even with some hipsters quitting.

It’s like, i dont want a gear grind, the new specialization stuff is way more interesting, but its still a grind, since you wont be able to beat the content without those skills, yeah, its still better than grind stats number.

Like a guy said, they tried too hard making things different and it ended up not working so well.

This is kinda of being addressed in HoT already.

The core want of Anet is that they want to stay true to a flexible system that allows you to basically do whatever you want as long as you suffice the core requirements of the encounter.

Colin himself has stated that they don’t want people to sit there for an hour waiting for a healer to login to the game to even stand a chance at even passing the first set of trash mobs in a dungeon however with that said by right of staying true to a flexible system that allows you to do whatever you want, you should still be able to build a dedicated healer and bring something admirable to the table even if it isn’t a requirement and anything in between that choice spectrum as well as being able to build an entire team of glass specs and still succeed.

Again, being addressed currently and with future installments.

Even now “tanks” and “healers” and stats that augment those setups are seeing use in FotM50 and does wonders for regular play. I’ve pushed 30 minutes with longer fractals in a non serious run that rolled a battle presence guardian and 4 optimized DPS builds.

The statement that you actually can’t build a full tank or a full healer akin to vanilla party setups is completely false, as a matter of fact you can actually do both in 1 build, there are people in this thread including myself that have done this and have augmented the speed and efficiency with many groups across different tiers of skill. The elitist attitude towards it is breaking down as I get more friends requests as I play it in FotM 50.

As I am typing this I am working with several people on their HPS rotation and best methods of active defense rotations to keep bosses like archidiviner and mossman planted.

I have convinced quite a few guardians just by showcasing its method to make an alt high healing power set to give it a shot themselves, these guardians have also been rolling in full zerker for a long time and have came back with positive testimonies.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidan Savage.2078:

I stopped reading fairly quickly when you assume other stats are irrelevant. GW2 is a game that does not have the “holy” trinity. It never will, the vast majority of players dont want it.

Gear stats other than Berserker and Assassin are indeed irrelevant in GW2’s PvE whether you like it or not.

GW2 most certainly does have a trinity, it’s just not the same as other MMOs have. GW2’s trinity is: damage, control, support. The problem is though that with the right traits and the right skills selected we already have all the control and support we need, we don’t need gear for that, our capability to do support and control doesn’t rely on gear stats.
Aegis will always block an enemy’s attack regardless of your gear.
Blindness will always make the enemy miss his attack regardless of your gear.
Protection will always lower your damage income with 33% regardless of your gear.
Etc. etc. etc. you get the gist.
Meaning we are expected to focus our gear on DPS to maximize your potential and efficiency. Getting gear with any other stats than power, precision and ferocity is a waste of time (in PvE that is, obviously for WvW and PvP it’s a different story).

And please speak for yourself. You don’t speak for “the vast majority of players”. I think just as many players are unhappy with the zerker meta and would like to see a change or a return to a more traditional trinity. Personally I’m on the fence about it. I don’t mind the zerker meta but sometimes I would like to change it up and play a tank or healer for a change, but this game doesn’t allow me to do that sadly enough.

Well then I’ll help you get off the fence.
1. Do you enjoy spamming LF Tank/Heal for 10/20/30 min sometime even hour?
2. Do you enjoy forcing yourself to roll a Tank/Heal just so you can get in to group?
3. Do you enjoy fighting in your own guild for a place, be it a 5 man or raid. Because there is already to many DPS and not enough Tank/Heal?

Dikeido.8436:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Aidan Savage.2078:

I stopped reading fairly quickly when you assume other stats are irrelevant. GW2 is a game that does not have the “holy” trinity. It never will, the vast majority of players dont want it.

Gear stats other than Berserker and Assassin are indeed irrelevant in GW2’s PvE whether you like it or not.

GW2 most certainly does have a trinity, it’s just not the same as other MMOs have. GW2’s trinity is: damage, control, support. The problem is though that with the right traits and the right skills selected we already have all the control and support we need, we don’t need gear for that, our capability to do support and control doesn’t rely on gear stats.
Aegis will always block an enemy’s attack regardless of your gear.
Blindness will always make the enemy miss his attack regardless of your gear.
Protection will always lower your damage income with 33% regardless of your gear.
Etc. etc. etc. you get the gist.
Meaning we are expected to focus our gear on DPS to maximize your potential and efficiency. Getting gear with any other stats than power, precision and ferocity is a waste of time (in PvE that is, obviously for WvW and PvP it’s a different story).

And please speak for yourself. You don’t speak for “the vast majority of players”. I think just as many players are unhappy with the zerker meta and would like to see a change or a return to a more traditional trinity. Personally I’m on the fence about it. I don’t mind the zerker meta but sometimes I would like to change it up and play a tank or healer for a change, but this game doesn’t allow me to do that sadly enough.

Well then I’ll help you get off the fence.
1. Do you enjoy spamming LF Tank/Heal for 10/20/30 min sometime even hour?
2. Do you enjoy forcing yourself to roll a Tank/Heal just so you can get in to group?
3. Do you enjoy fighting in your own guild for a place, be it a 5 man or raid. Because there is already to many DPS and not enough Tank/Heal?

1. A non-issue for me, as I have a guild and friends to play with.
2. A non-issue for me, as I don’t mind playing a tank or healer. I just said that I like to change it up and play a tank/healer from time to time.
3. A non-issue for me as my guild members are also my friends and unlike you I’m not hellbent on playing DPS, I like playing tank or healer too.

Sorry, you didn’t help me get off the fence at all.

the trinity sucks, it’s the main reason i play gw2 and quit WoW, i cant stand the whole tank and healer aspect, if you got a kitten healer, the group is done for, if the tank sucks, the group is done for, i hate having to rely on one person, if they bring in the trinity, im quitting gw2

Leonhardt.8164:

the trinity sucks, it’s the main reason i play gw2 and quit WoW, i cant stand the whole tank and healer aspect, if you got a kitten healer, the group is done for, if the tank sucks, the group is done for, i hate having to rely on one person, if they bring in the trinity, im quitting gw2

How is GW2 any different though? We might not have a dedicated trinity but essentially we do the same stuff: damage, control and support.

If the guardian sucks and doesn’t properly apply aegis and blinds, the group is done for. If the ele sucks and doesn’t properly stack might, there is not enough DPS and the group is done for. If the mesmer doesn’t throw down his reflect in time the group is done for, etc. etc. etc.

Unless you’re good at solo-ing dungeons and use a build for that, you’re still gonna need and have to rely on your party members to complete a dungeon in GW2, adding a more traditional trinity would not change that.

Dikeido.8436:

3. Do you enjoy fighting in your own guild for a place, be it a 5 man or raid. Because there is already to many DPS and not enough Tank/Heal?

There’s actually quite an odd situation where there’s not enough of everything in raiding, due to the general cutting down on unnecessary healing/tanking as you advance. If I recall correctly, in dungeons and early raids, DPS need to compete for a spot, then tanks tend to start having to fight for positions, then healers start getting cut, then you get a weird case where because you’re cutting the tanks and healers, there isn’t enough properly geared DPS to fill in the gaps.