Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m not commanding. Ever . . .

I made that decision when I had 100 Gold and wondered about it. Frankly, it wasn’t respected then in PvE and in WvW people preferred other commanders.

I’m somewhat agreeing that players who stay dead with the intent to leech should feel ashamed. But they won’t ever feel ashamed. Punishing other players for them feels like trying to drive in a ten-penny nail with a sledgehammer.

How you choose to act is on you. How you choose to feel about how you act is on, again, you. Those of us who have chosen to put on the pip and lead can only provide advice based on our experience of leading an event successfully. The game “punishes” you because it has code to target players who are down or those who are ressing as they are vulnerable.

“Dead” players who are left there will eventually learn that their decision to lie there awaiting help results in one thing. Their missing out on the fun

eithinan.9841:

Wetpaw.3487:

eithinan.9841:

I would like to see forced wp after 1 min of not being rezzed at cost with an addendum. If you are forced to wp you are shunted to another shard and lose credit for participating in the event. This would solve the tag and afk mentality of a lot of these event farmers who leech off the population actually trying to complete it.

I like this idea. I usually run the South Hills or South boat, and I always announce to party first priority is to train mobs onto the afk players right away, no tequatl burn for them unless they WP and run back.

My bow has plenty of pk’s in this PvE environment.

I think I did south hills with you during some PUG run because I remember this happening exactly as you describe. I would also be lying if that didnt help plant the seed of what I suggested.

Ya, kinda have to. Tequatl easy if the defense groups can kill/keep krait off the guns. AFK’s by south hill WP to t1/t2 can easily spawn multiple champs, and usually it’s still not a big deal…but you get a champ Krait Hyp+champ grub it can get very sketchy.

Only answer is to train mobs into afk’s for the PK, and miraculously they’re no longer afk and wp out.

Azrael.4960:

How you choose to act is on you. How you choose to feel about how you act is on, again, you. Those of us who have chosen to put on the pip and lead can only provide advice based on our experience of leading an event successfully. The game “punishes” you because it has code to target players who are down or those who are ressing as they are vulnerable.

It’s one reason a secondary character of mine (Guardian), I’m seriously considering Sup. Runes of Mercy . . .

“Dead” players who are left there will eventually learn that their decision to lie there awaiting help results in one thing. Their missing out on the fun

Honestly, this is the biggest punishment of all, in my opinion. It’s a shame many seem to miss the fun for the rewards.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Azrael.4960:

How you choose to act is on you. How you choose to feel about how you act is on, again, you. Those of us who have chosen to put on the pip and lead can only provide advice based on our experience of leading an event successfully. The game “punishes” you because it has code to target players who are down or those who are ressing as they are vulnerable.

It’s one reason a secondary character of mine (Guardian), I’m seriously considering Sup. Runes of Mercy . . .

“Dead” players who are left there will eventually learn that their decision to lie there awaiting help results in one thing. Their missing out on the fun

Honestly, this is the biggest punishment of all, in my opinion. It’s a shame many seem to miss the fun for the rewards.

Would be interesting to have a change that resulted in “if you are dead for >50% of an event, you get nothing” bwahaha

Azrael.4960:

Would be interesting to have a change that resulted in “if you are dead for >50% of an event, you get nothing” bwahaha

Given that sometimes 50% of an event is the time it takes to be picked up from downed, in some cases? (Especially prime time Cursed Shore events like the giant.) I don’t think it’s reasonable to a time frame

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But according to this topic, and suggestions of auto/forced WP returns, there’s no distinction between players who were unlucky dodging or players who just sit there to wait it out. Fully dead is fully dead, and anyone laying on the ground needs to be moved . . . sometimes denied a reward . . . because they died.

It irks me, slightly, because I often enough die due to bad luck (Silverwastes KD/KB/AoE spam during fort defenses) or because I try to get someone sitting in one of Teq’s poison puddles up before they die, and I wind up down instead. Punishing me for that feels . . . wrong.

Even a 1 minute wp timer would not punish you for that unless you decided to go make a sandwich after dying, or if you were totally alone anyway. For normal exploration I wouldn’t want this kind of timer because sometimes a sandwich break is nice, or it takes a while for someone else to come along. But during vinewrath, tequatl or another boss event which requires coordination and not a bunch of people standing around afk the timer might help penalize/discourage people from showing up, tagging, and then abandoning the game until they get their reward via everyone else’s efforts. If they risk returning to a completely different instance with no reward it would be a pretty strong motivator to keep actively playing during the event.

ps- it sounds to me that your problem with this suggestion Tobias is that you’re imagining it in place for all pve events when I read it as being only for major boss fights.

eyestrain.3056:

ps- it sounds to me that your problem with this suggestion Tobias is that you’re imagining it in place for all pve events when I read it as being only for major boss fights.

I think it’d be great for major boss fights, but at the same time I have two issues.

The first is more on a philosophical note – We already know the dead don’t impact the scaling, so the problem is stated to be other . . . productive . . . people stopping to pick up fully dead people instead of ignoring them. I do not approve of the desire to train people to ignore others. That goes against the deeper spirit of Guild Wars 2: wanting players to help other players because there’s only benefit in doing so. Trying to change the mentality of players to “just leave them alone” is a small change, but small changes are the foundation on which more exclusive behavior is tolerated and advocated.
We desperately do not need to foster that, and we should not allow ourselves to backslide back into the mindset of other players generally being an obstacle to our fun.

The second is on a more technical note – Adding a timer is adding complexity to a system which doesn’t necessarily need it. Every time you need to sort through a pile of event data to work on less than 5% of all events, and impact only those events, you run the risk of it impacting outside the targeted events. And if it does, that’s a bug issue which means now you need to go back into it and do it again.
This is a pile of work for something which isn’t exactly needed in the first place, and won’t do all that much to stop things like this. Instead of dead bodies leeching you’ll get live players leeching and they scale up the event.

The problem is a social one, and trying to use the system to fix a social problem rarely actually has the effect desired without having a ton of extra effects which are unwanted and disliked.

Regarding people being trained to ignore full dead- I would think a change like this would help fight that, as people would no longer want to lay around full dead unless a res was coming immediately, would wp faster, and there would be fewer full dead laying around. And at a VW event for instance if you saw someone full dead you’d know it only happened recently and they haven’t been afk there for 5min already.

It’s not flawless but it is an idea worth considering since I think “tap and afk” is an issue caused by the current system. There are already plenty of people saying “full dead wp and run back” at every event but this isn’t solving the bad behavior.

At the greatest I would approve transplanting the timer they added to WvW semi-recently which has something like 5 minutes on it before it auto-waypoints you. The trick then is how to handle the waypoint cost . . .

. . . only I’d say “don’t worry about that, make it auto pay too”.

I don’t think there’s a “social” issue with ignoring full dead. The main social issue I see is the full dead expecting (even feeling entitled to) others to take the counterproductive measure of trying to res in the face of whatever killed them in the first place, rather than porting and rushing back to help contribute again as soon as possible.

I think people should have an incentive to waypoint sooner rather than later. As I said in my last post, I would fully support waiving the cost for the nearest WP for up to 30 seconds from death when an event is nearby.

People who sit on their lazy entitled corpses for longer than that can then be seen as the leeching dead weights they truly are.

I didn’t say the social issue was ignoring full dead, I said there was a social issue in play here. And trying to solve it with rules just drives people to find other ways around the rules. As I said, I expect if they do this whole “shunt the fully dead after X minutes” people will find some place to stand and not die, and therefore scale the event . . . leading to “needing” to solve that problem next.

. . . it’s giving asuras, er, mice, cookies.

hazenvirus.8154:

eithinan.9841:

I would like to see forced wp after 1 min of not being rezzed at cost with an addendum. If you are forced to wp you are shunted to another shard and lose credit for participating in the event. This would solve the tag and afk mentality of a lot of these event farmers who leech off the population actually trying to complete it.

This would also greatly discourage new players learning an event like Tequatl where they might die, or punish a player who has a perfect round and dies unfortunately. People would shy away from doing parts of the world boss where they might die. Like doing melee in the first phase of Tequatl, usually someone inexperienced or who becomes distracted for a moment or has some lag dies to a combination of knockdown and poison. Stripping rewards because of a small mistake when they might be doing well otherwise would punish real players who are not leeching. I don’t think it is a good solution if it may punish players who are participating legitimately or learning the fight.

This also discouraged players from saving other players. I’m one of those people that, after I get my hits in and I start seeing an excessive amount of downed players, I start weighing things: are there enough people up? Can I get some up with a clutch utility or a swift kill? How much attention I’ve gained? How likely will a hard rez fail or be forfeit? If I fall due to failure, what’s the likelihood of someone rezzing me?

Now if players basically get booted if they fall and no one gets them up, the danger of that happening to you is now a valid and high concern. Me being someone that would rather struggle getting everyone through an encounter vs just soloing it myself, if I end up downed for trying to help others, get killed AND lose out on my loot? Why bother trying if few others would take the same risk?

Players lying dead on the map, whither the scale the event up or not, are a distraction and unnecessary distraction. The fix is an easy one after say 30 seconds their death mark looks like any other NPCs easy easy

Where is this “risk” everyone is talking about? If people simply waypointed on death like 90% of normal contributing people already do, then there isn’t anything to miss out on.

The only people we want to “push” to be more useful are the dead weights who are not contributing at all. I’m not sure how the incentive of free waypointing for (only) the first 30 seconds after death at an event would encourage more passive, defensive, and selfish play than we have right now.

This isn’t something that can be fixed in the game. This is something that only the players themselves can fix.

I disagree with a forced WP (unless the suggestion made earlier in this thread as to putting in a close temporary wp is implemented), and I vehemently disagree with a one minute timer. A minute can go by quite quickly, and in some fights it’s way longer than a minute to get back.

Today I decided to do a Vinewrath for fun. Worked on the map from 1/3 prepped through Breach (which succeeded at the last moment, hurray!) then ran to North since that’s always under-staffed. Mid failed, so North got to deal with the thrasher, and sadly failed as well. I died in the last two seconds before the fail and got dumped out with everyone else. Two others lay dead near me as well. A living person jumped up and down on our corpses for longer than a rez would take, and when asked “why jump when you can rez?” said “Because you didn’t WP.” Then she ran off. Someone else came to kindly get us on our feet so we could help keep the carrier up, but it was too late, the last two carriers were lost (not sure in which lanes) and it was one of the rare Vinewrath fails.

Had I wp’d the moment I died (again, two seconds before everyone got evicted anyway), I’d never have made it back to North in time to do thing one. Had I and my two fellow dead been rezzed, we’d have been back in the fight inside a minute without costing anyone else anything because there is a brief grace period after the eviction to allow for rezzing.

Waypointing would have been a worse drain on resources than getting rezzed. And people doing useful rezzes (ie outside, not during the boss fight) wouldn’t necessarily have been able to get to it inside a minute, but definitely could have long before waypointers could charge back in.

Dave.2536:

Where is this “risk” everyone is talking about? If people simply waypointed on death like 90% of normal contributing people already do, then there isn’t anything to miss out on.

The only people we want to “push” to be more useful are the dead weights who are not contributing at all. I’m not sure how the incentive of free waypointing for (only) the first 30 seconds after death at an event would encourage more passive, defensive, and selfish play than we have right now.

That’s what I’m trying to tell you. No matter what you do to try to force or wave incentives in front of them, they’re not going to do more than the bare minimum to get credit, and fixes may provide them ways to actually screw things up for other players greater than “being a corpse”.

See, you have a problem. You’re not thinking like a griefer or AFK farmer. They want to do the least amount of work they can get away with to get their rewards, or they just want to screw up an event for the lulz. Incentives to waypoint are going to likely cause them not to bother with that, or if it’s an automatic use? They’ll find places to not die and thus not need to waypoint . . . and since they’re alive . . . they scale up the event.

Leaving them on the ground because you notice they’re not doing anything other than dying is the best policy. But it’s a personal choice I’d like to not have made for me. I’d also not like to risk getting tagged by this system due to things outside my control, such as having to make a mad dash to the restroom and figuring I’ll be back soon enough to return to the battle. (And yes, thanks to some spectacularly greasy food, had that happen.)

Ps: I find it hilarious that player pk is tolerated, even if it means the difference between failure and success. That is an offense that should be punished, but thankfully death in this game is as minor as levels.

If you can’t handle adds to an event because of an issue with a wp proximity and is affects on scaling, suggest it be changed. Imo, crying about the dead and needing auto wp just tells me you’re not skilled enough to worry about someone other than yourself and don’t have the stores to provide support or the mindset to organize such. I mean, jeez, the open world isn’t that hard. Not saying those that are dps focused shouldn’t do what they do best, but there are other types of builds, utilities, traits and equipment in the game for people who want to do other things besides dps. Why deprive them off that just for your convenience when is not directly harming you?

I’m going to preface this by putting it in the context of the Golem Mk II event.

If someone hasn’t done it before, they should have the balls to ask and not feel ashamed about not knowing the fight. I’m more than happy to explain how it goes down, but only to those who will ask first.

Within the first 30 seconds of the event, all I see on the minimap is a platform full of skulls and cross-bones. The platform is essentially a graveyard. I find a lot of these people will not resurrect themselves at the nearby waypoint. Instead they’ll expect others (I see it happen daily) to resurrect them and put their own lives at risk. It’s dangerous and selfish.

If you want to get event credit then participate in the event like all the others. You won’t get it by lying dead on a platform. You’ll get noticed more by staying where you are and making a mockery of yourself asking to be resurrected, than by quietly finding the nearest waypoint and rejoining the fight. People are more fixated on the boss than someone who just died coming back into the fight.

Regarding the possible solutions to this problem, auto-waypointing may be a way to separate the trolls and auto-attackers/afk’ers from the real participants. You’ll see a heap of them stacked at the waypoint if they’re deliberately afk. ‘Kicking’ them off the platform (ie. at the base of the stairs perhaps, outside the event area) upon death may also be a way to look at this. That way others aren’t putting their lives at risk to resurrect them. The dead might find more impetus to actually use the waypoint than blissfully ignoring the dangers others face to get them back into the fight.

Other events have different mechanics but the bottom line here essentially the same. If you’re downed and able to be brought back into the fight in time (ie. a few seconds) that’s all well and good. If you’re dead it’s always better to waypoint than put others at risk. You’re more than likely not going to miss out on getting event credit as long as you do your share of damage and don’t afk the event.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

As far as we know, according to past Dev statements, the dead do not scale up events. This seems to be misinformation that is commonly accepted. I’m not sure why.

So WHY does it matter if they lay there dead?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

We already know the dead don’t impact the scaling,

I would really like to see the source of this information please and not Inculpatus cedo, but a dev post.

eithinan.9841:

I would really like to see the source of this information please and not Inculpatus cedo, but a dev post.

I’ll have to ask the next tagged person I see hanging around in Lion’s Arch.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Azrael.4960:

I just make it a point to declare that during Tequatl, Silverwastes, etc. People should not be ressing the fulling dead and that the dead should WP and get back.

And that makes infinite sense to me.

Did you seriously just bless this?

You guys at ANet designed this game to be a team effort and took away dedicated Healers/Revivers and gave us ALL the ability to res each other to encourage Team Work.

Now you just threw everyone under the bus since now the “WP if you’re Dead/Don’t res the Dead” group can now say “ANet says so.”

I can not believe you did that.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Azrael.4960:

I just make it a point to declare that during Tequatl, Silverwastes, etc. People should not be ressing the fulling dead and that the dead should WP and get back.

And that makes infinite sense to me.

Did you seriously just bless this?

You guys at ANet designed this game to be a team effort and took away dedicated Healers/Revivers and gave us ALL the ability to res each other to encourage Team Work.

Now you just threw everyone under the bus since now the “WP if you’re Dead/Don’t res the Dead” group can now say “ANet says so.”

I can not believe you did that.

I can. I’ve seen her at big events with ANet tag on and not telling people “WP if you’re dead” to cut it out.

Besides “making sense” doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be doing it. I mean, let’s be honest . . . buying Keys and using them never made sense. Ever. Still gets done daily

Ravion Hawk.4736:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Azrael.4960:

I just make it a point to declare that during Tequatl, Silverwastes, etc. People should not be ressing the fulling dead and that the dead should WP and get back.

And that makes infinite sense to me.

Did you seriously just bless this?

You guys at ANet designed this game to be a team effort and took away dedicated Healers/Revivers and gave us ALL the ability to res each other to encourage Team Work.

Now you just threw everyone under the bus since now the “WP if you’re Dead/Don’t res the Dead” group can now say “ANet says so.”

I can not believe you did that.

“Team Work” = lying dead on the ground providing negative contribution as others stop DPSing to try to res under the same fire that killed you

lol

lolol

LOLOLOL

Sorry, but Gaile and ANet do not need to endorse every possible magnitude of role play fantasy that players may have.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

You guys at ANet designed this game to be a team effort and took away dedicated Healers/Revivers and gave us ALL the ability to res each other to encourage Team Work.

Team Play is to maximize your play together, as a team.

This includes the following decision, in each situation:

• Is it beneficial to wait an be rezzed on the spot? If yes, don’t release, stay there.
• Is it beneficial to release and scale down the event while you run back? If yes, do release.

There are situations where being on the ground is beneficial, even when dead instead of downed. Already-win (mopping up stage) WvW fights come to mind, as people running back expose themselves to highwaymen. Tequatl right before he flies off isn’t one, as releasing and running to the north spot is actually faster than running from the tequatl spot. Etc, etc, etc.

Teamwork does not mean to lie there making it worse for your team.

Let me try to explain the problem I see with dead people lying around:

Let’s take a look at the vinewrath fight:

What people should do:
- during lane fight: Build up defense weapons (catapults, arrow carts, etc.), kill enemies, protect sieges.
- during boss fight: Kill Boss, destroy objects (pustules, “flowers” (boss 3))

Now, the boss fight lasts for example 2 more minutes and someone dies.
That player decides to lie around for the rest of the time waiting to be rezzed.

By lying around dead the player does:
- Pull people from damaging boss to pick him up
- By this prevents people from doing damage to boss and by that risking to fail the event.
- Also rezzing people do not destroy pustules etc. and by that risking to be in a big aoe field when pustule explodes and by that are lying in down state there too.
- Dead people might get rezzed before the players in down state, making them get killed too and start the whole problem again.
- Boss 2 might stun rezzing people who might miss the window to step in front of the boss.

What the dead players could have done instead of:
- WP and run back to the lane.
- Start building defense weapons while others are finishing the boss
- Give their lanes a good start when people return from fight.
- Rezz the people dying within the last 15-30 seconds (no need for them to run any more)
- Have their skills and health ready when lane starts again instead of being in regeneration and reorientation phase after rezz.

So what you see is that the big problem is not scaling the event up, the bigger problem is distracting others from fighting. They might have to use a dodge to get out of reviving others and by that not being able to dodge when they need one to survive.
People lying around dead are simply NO HELP AT ALL, while people WPing and running back, can prepare the next defense and be of some use at least.

That should be the main reason for WPing. You saving one silver by not WPing might cost you 2s as event reward plus the chance for a 800g item and might be ruining the event for everyone. So stop being selfish and only think about your own money and own loot and start thinking as a big team. We can only win as a team. Not as a bunch of selfish lone warriors.
Everyone being too lazy to port and run or too cheap to pay 1 or 2 silver should consider playing a single player game instead of a multiplayer game.
And compared to other MMOs GW2 is way nicer in giving players loot since you don’t have to roll a dice for maybe getting loot. So stop the selfish thoughts you learned from other games and do something useful for everyone fighting to make events a success.

’Nuff said. Good luck, good loot and have fun playing!

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

I’m going to preface this by putting it in the context of the Golem Mk II event.

(…)

Within the first 30 seconds of the event, all I see on the minimap is a platform full of skulls and cross-bones. The platform is essentially a graveyard. I find a lot of these people will not resurrect themselves at the nearby waypoint. Instead they’ll expect others (I see it happen daily) to resurrect them and put their own lives at risk. It’s dangerous and selfish.

For a fight like Golem Mk II, I’ve stuck around on the ground not because I expect to be revived, but because I’m trying to pick up the mechanics of the fight without someone teaching me. I enjoy that process of discovery and trial and error, and hanging around for a minute to see what’s happening to other people helps me piece together how the fight works.

Plus, it’s not like you can make Golem Mk II fail, or like there’s much of a time investment leading up to it.

Edit: Maybe I should just start typing “Do Not Resuscitate” in /say or something so that people don’t feel bad about ignoring me.

I’ll just leave this here :

“Events can detect that players have not performed any actions relating to the event within a period of time and will scale down the event accordingly.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_event

I understand that it takes time for “downscaling”, but that would be no different to dead players not scaling the event.

Softspoken.2410:

Valandil Dragonhart.2371:

I’m going to preface this by putting it in the context of the Golem Mk II event.

(…)

Within the first 30 seconds of the event, all I see on the minimap is a platform full of skulls and cross-bones. The platform is essentially a graveyard. I find a lot of these people will not resurrect themselves at the nearby waypoint. Instead they’ll expect others (I see it happen daily) to resurrect them and put their own lives at risk. It’s dangerous and selfish.

For a fight like Golem Mk II, I’ve stuck around on the ground not because I expect to be revived, but because I’m trying to pick up the mechanics of the fight without someone teaching me. I enjoy that process of discovery and trial and error, and hanging around for a minute to see what’s happening to other people helps me piece together how the fight works.

Plus, it’s not like you can make Golem Mk II fail, or like there’s much of a time investment leading up to it.

Edit: Maybe I should just start typing “Do Not Resuscitate” in /say or something so that people don’t feel bad about ignoring me.

Ok but why aren’t you staying like 5 steps outside of the danger zone while alive and watch the mechanics? You can do that too while alive. Or watch a youtube video for mechanics? Most world bosses are easy to understand and you will know the mechanics within 1 minute.
By lying around dead, you trap other people into helping you which might get electrocuted.

But yes, MKII will always go down in time, so I guess it’s not that big of a deal. But you know… people watching MKII mechanics might also be watching Teq mechanics and Vinewrath mechanics, 3 headed worm mechanics and so on. And with some bosses it really makes a difference. And it sends a wrong signal to others. It should be common sense to run. But if too many players lie around, new players won’t port either.
I don’t care if you lie dead at MKII, I will ask all dead to port and I won’t rezz you, so we’re both good but please do not do this at harder bosses! Thanks

Novuake.2691:

I’ll just leave this here :

“Events can detect that players have not performed any actions relating to the event within a period of time and will scale down the event accordingly.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dynamic_event

I understand that it takes time for “downscaling”, but that would be no different to dead players not scaling the event.

Yep and because of that, scaling is not the problem. But lots of other things are! See above!

Schumi.4285:

Softspoken.2410:

For a fight like Golem Mk II, I’ve stuck around on the ground not because I expect to be revived, but because I’m trying to pick up the mechanics of the fight without someone teaching me. I enjoy that process of discovery and trial and error, and hanging around for a minute to see what’s happening to other people helps me piece together how the fight works.

Plus, it’s not like you can make Golem Mk II fail, or like there’s much of a time investment leading up to it.

Edit: Maybe I should just start typing “Do Not Resuscitate” in /say or something so that people don’t feel bad about ignoring me.

Ok but why aren’t you staying like 5 steps outside of the danger zone while alive and watch the mechanics? You can do that too while alive. Or watch a youtube video for mechanics? Most world bosses are easy to understand and you will know the mechanics within 1 minute.
By lying around dead, you trap other people into helping you which might get electrocuted.

But yes, MKII will always go down in time, so I guess it’s not that big of a deal. But you know… people watching MKII mechanics might also be watching Teq mechanics and Vinewrath mechanics, 3 headed worm mechanics and so on. And with some bosses it really makes a difference. And it sends a wrong signal to others. It should be common sense to run. But if too many players lie around, new players won’t port either.
I don’t care if you lie dead at MKII, I will ask all dead to port and I won’t rezz you, so we’re both good but please do not do this at harder bosses!

Typically I don’t stand 5 steps out of the danger zone because when I am new to a fight, I don’t know where the danger zones are. So the only way to stay perfectly safe is to be at 1200+ range (and that doesn’t even always work). And at 1200+ range, I can’t really tell the finer points of what’s going on. As to why I don’t watch a Youtube video about it:

I’m trying to pick up the mechanics of the fight without someone teaching me. I enjoy that process of discovery and trial and error

I didn’t note it explicitly, but I don’t do this at harder bosses, because for a lot of those you can either 1) actually fail the event, which is just a downer in general or 2) make someone’s prior time investment become meaningless, such as the front half of dungeons or the “Foothold” event period in the Silverwastes. Or, more succinctly:

it’s not like you can make (the event) fail, or like there’s much of a time investment leading up to it.

Golem Mk II is not what I would call a Serious Business world boss. So while there’s a lot of times where I get people’s gripes about others performing suboptimally, that one really isn’t worth bothering yourself over.

Healix.5819:

They don’t want to avoid “the walk of shame” they just don’t want to bother. Being dead is like placing a big “bad player” sign on top of you – the dunce cap of failure – which is worse.

.

Being bad? That is pretty dumb to call people bad when they die. Ever heard of suicide attacks in wvw, or taking one for the team/server?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

As far as we know, according to past Dev statements, the dead do not scale up events. This seems to be misinformation that is commonly accepted. I’m not sure why.

I would like to know if there has been any serious player testing of this. Anet also told us broken fractal rewards where just “unlucky rng” until provided with unignorable statistics by players. Frankly, I don’t believe (or disbelieve) anything they say until verified in game.

Schumi.4285:

Yep and because of that, scaling is not the problem. But lots of other things are! See above!

People will be people. Larger events, Vinewrath included, hardly ever fail.
So no problem.

I never see dead players as bad players.

As ranged I think of them as suicide tanks. I’m proud of their sacrifice. I feel ashamed when they die because I’m nice and safe from that stomping boss far far far out there trying to get close enough not the see the “object in way” and “out of range” floaties as I fire. I feel like shyte they took my blows for me while I was getting into position and worse for not being able to get close to raise them. A boss stomping around their dead corpses emphasizes my non-tanky self would just die next to them if I tried.

rhapsody.3615:

When I’m feeling sassy, I mail the wp cost to dead players :P

Sir,

I like your style.

Novuake.2691:

Schumi.4285:

Yep and because of that, scaling is not the problem. But lots of other things are! See above!

People will be people. Larger events, Vinewrath included, hardly ever fail.
So no problem.

Have you been lately in silver wastes at around 5-6pm on Sundays? When all the casual gamers are on. On a non-organized server? You can see a lot of failures there.
I have seen like 10-20 ppl lying around not WPing during boss 2 fight in one single try (most of them dead within the first 120 seconds of the fight).
And like 3 vw event fails in a row. Maybe you were lucky with your servers…

Arguing that events hardly fail is btw not solving the issue of the discussion here, it’s more not wanting to accept other arguments.

>>People in my neighborhood almost never die of hunger so there is no hunger/poverty problem on this earth and no need to change anything.
People will be people.<<
Do you see the flaw in this argumentation?

Issue is:
someone WILL rezz those dead people, that someone WILL NOT do dmg during that time and worst case, will get downed in the process due to not being able to stop rezzing or just bad judgement call.

In most cases its more than one.

Also, for most players its difficult to tell the difference between downed and dead on the ground, so banners getting wasted, wrong players getting rezzed, resulting in a downed dieing etc.

Your laziness in not waypointing during big events – and lets face it, in 90% of the cases its just that – is resulting in numerous problems, making the event just unnecessarily difficult for those not lazying around.

How about you dont get contribution for an event if you lie continuously dead on the ground for most of the time? Wouldnt that be rather fair? I mean… its called contribution for a reason… lieing dead on the ground is not contributing in my book.

Hrm. The players who stop fighting Tequatl to rez somebody who is fully downed probably aren’t doing much damage in the first place. So yeah, go ahead, 4-signet Bearbow in Clerics gear, pop your Signet of Stone and pick people up… ;-)

As far as scaling, have we even confirmed that Tequatl scales? If he does, it’s only above 80 or 100 players, or something. If there’s 20 or 30 lying there dead, they may not be scaling the event, but they certainly aren’t helping.

I guess because I’ve played so long I’ve learned a very hard and fast rule from the early days: If yur dead, wp and run back. Especially in Cursed Shore events because:

o I can wp and run faster. I even send out a msg in mapchat so the rezzer knows what happened and perhaps encourage others.

o Rezzing takes two players out of action.

o You get more lootz that way. Since you’re still playing rather than laying there.

o Your lootz are still there even if the event ends.

o I’d even vote to add a “Just Kill Me” button to downed options.

o Players who yell “help” annoy me to no end.

I got so whack on the topic I even looked it up on the forums a loooooong time ago. “Rez the downed. Dead wp and run.” was considered proper etiquette at the time. Times change I guess. It has been interesting to watch etiquette, slang, etc. shift over the life of the game. I wonder why that happens?

It does remind me “Humans are not a rational animal, they are a rationalizing animal.”

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But according to this topic, and suggestions of auto/forced WP returns, there’s no distinction between players who were unlucky dodging or players who just sit there to wait it out. Fully dead is fully dead, and anyone laying on the ground needs to be moved . . . sometimes denied a reward . . . because they died.

It irks me, slightly, because I often enough die due to bad luck (Silverwastes KD/KB/AoE spam during fort defenses) or because I try to get someone sitting in one of Teq’s poison puddles up before they die, and I wind up down instead. Punishing me for that feels . . . wrong.

Typically, there ISNT a distinction. If you die, take the god forsaken waypoint if we’re in the middle of an event. Take teq for example. If you’re dead, you take 5-10 times longer to pick up than a downed person. That means you’re making the event take longer. Furthermore, the TWO closest open waypoints are so close, if you took your bloated corpse off the ground, you’d be able to run back to the fight before you’d have been revived. Not only are you back in the action quickly, you’re also not being detrimental to damage output. It’s also important because players, downed or dead, are prioritized over conjured weapons and banners, which means your corpse is getting in the way of someone picking up that banner for a blast finisher, or that ice bow for large aoe damage.

Now look at THW in bloodtide coast. Phase 1, rezzing dead people doesnt affect much. Phase 2, however, if you’re dead, you’re staying dead until the fight succeeds, fails, or you waypoint. It isnt just because we dont have time or dps to waste on you (yes, it’s a waste), but because the mechanics of the fight also make it an extreme risk to rez dead people if they died out in the middle of the field. Anyone who’s been at the early learning runs for TTS has learned this the hard way if Cobalt charges off at some fool rezzing the npc or some dead person on the beach and Cobalt ends up charging so far into the water it goes invuln, heals to full, and sits out there for about 30 seconds before coming back out of the water. That person not waypointing immediately directly impacted that event by causing it to fail.

Second, actually read the suggestions tobias. They’re suggestions to punish those who die, and then sit there for minutes or longer until someone picks them up. It’s those people who are being targeted. If you die and promptly waypoint, you’re not the intended target. If you die and sit there for 5 minutes because you’re too lazy to run back, you’re the intended target. Frankly it’s sad. Events like Teq and THW pay out in GOLD kitten . You would have to be utter crap in combat and die 60+ times in 10-15 minutes before you’re “losing” money waypointing on death at these events.

Frankly the WvW system would be best. If you arent revived within 20 seconds, you get shunted to the closest waypoint, and STAY dead, regardless of how close you were to being revived. You arent getting a free revive and waypoint travel out of the bargain. Once you get shunted, you can either sit at the waypoint for hours waiting to be picked up, or you can still pay the waypoint cost and then run back. Solves the problem pretty brilliantly. You get to keep your event credit (questionable), your body gets punted out of the way of everyone else (great), no one is tempted to pick you up and cost the event dps (even better), and you are forced to take the waypoint still and run back to the event, wasting even more of your time than if you had waypointed to start with (the best part).

eithinan.9841:

I would like to see forced wp after 1 min of not being rezzed at cost with an addendum. If you are forced to wp you are shunted to another shard and lose credit for participating in the event. This would solve the tag and afk mentality of a lot of these event farmers who leech off the population actually trying to complete it.

i think your kind of player is the exact problem here, if someone has to wait more then 1 minute for someone to res then guess who is really the problem here.
death happens, just because someone died and waits for someone to res doesn’t make them a leech, don’t think so negative about ppl and start ressing if it bothers you so much.

Gaile Gray.6029:

[…]I mean, death happens.[…]

Well, let’s not forget that “defeated” ain’t “dead” in lore. Just mostly dead at most.

I guess Grenth is on vacation or something, and resurrection skills no longer work, so people is limited to ‘resuscitation’ at most.

But there’s still remnants of mentions of the old “death” from GW1 in the game like the F-revive still being called “Resurrect” in the combat log and the “/deaths” emote not being renamed to “/defeat”. Defeated models should still even breath and people should waypoint automatically after 5 minutes like in WvW (a security system kicking in before brain death) to denote this change in lore even more!

Aidan Savage.2078:

Second, actually read the suggestions tobias. They’re suggestions to punish those who die, and then sit there for minutes or longer until someone picks them up. It’s those people who are being targeted. If you die and promptly waypoint, you’re not the intended target. If you die and sit there for 5 minutes because you’re too lazy to run back, you’re the intended target. Frankly it’s sad. Events like Teq and THW pay out in GOLD kitten . You would have to be utter crap in combat and die 60+ times in 10-15 minutes before you’re “losing” money waypointing on death at these events.

I did read it. However, I don’t have faith in the system to properly determine the difference, thanks. Bugs happen, and unintended code effects sometimes goes a while before it’s fixed because it takes some time to track down then replicate. I know this, so why would I chance adding something like “WP soon or lose everything”?

Frankly the WvW system would be best. If you arent revived within 20 seconds, you get shunted to the closest waypoint, and STAY dead, regardless of how close you were to being revived.

Do you stay dead in WvW if the timer runs out? I never actually let it run down. But yes, this particular method was the only one which seems fair to transplant. If you must do so at all.

I still think, however, doing these things are going to prompt more people to find a safe place to stand and AFK instead.

Conaywea.5062:

lol like world bosses were hard or something

There are certainly things you should and should not do for each BOSS and those often have NOTHING to do with player skill (just knowledge). I do believe that is the first issue the OP is discussing (learning “the fight”).

My theory on this has always been if you go down, don’t EXPECT someone to Rez you immediately (or at all), but be grateful is someone does. If you feel that you have racked up enough damage to get kill credit, just lay there and someone will likely rez you after the fight. If you seriously think you need to participate further, you should WP. It’s not rocket science.

I feel the idea that if you go down you MUST WP is just kind of silly (but certainly depends on where you went down and the stage of the particular boss fight).

yolo swaggins.2570:

It has come to my attention that some players participating in large scale events are having issues learning the fight while others don’t understand the importance of WPing when they die. While the first can be remedied by asking for advice or teaching players prior to the main event, the other is more difficult to remedy because players want to avoid “the walk of shame” from a nearby waypoint.

Let’s return to the OP’s assumptions:

• People seem to be learning event mechanics by asking questions, reading /map or /say chat.
• People don’t seem to be learning the importance of waypointing if dead (not downed).

And the OP’s suggestion:

• People will learn to waypoint, if the game forces them to do so.
• At the very least, the ‘dead’ will be forced to walk back to the event and therefore will no longer be in the way of rezzing or interacting (e.g. with siege, banners, environmental weapons).

While I support the spirit of the post, I think this isn’t a technical problem that the game can solve for us easily. It’s more of an educational/sociological issue: until one has a good sense of how the game works and which mechanics matter, it’s hard to understand why waypointing matters to the success of the event and how it won’t hurt (and likely will help) your rewards.

I agree with an earlier poster who suggested more mechanics like those used in Tequatl, where remaining dead for too long prevents you from getting the top rewards.

In the meantime, I recommend that veterans accept that there are always inexperienced players in events and the best way to help them is to politely offer advice about how to help out. Getting angry, YELLING, or putting folks down just encourages people to turn off /map or even /say chat and won’t have the desired behavior change.

tl;dr I’m sympathetic to the OP, but I don’t think the issue is easily solved by a simple mechanic. For now, veterans just need to be patient with those who don’t understand the game as well.

sorudo.9054:

i think your kind of player is the exact problem here, if someone has to wait more then 1 minute for someone to res then guess who is really the problem here.

During an event like Teq or THW burn phase, its the person lying around completely down on the ground, the reasons have been explained ad nauseam above.

sorudo.9054:

death happens, just because someone died and waits for someone to res doesn’t make them a leech, don’t think so negative about ppl and start ressing if it bothers you so much.

Yes and I do rez people in the open world if I happen to come across them, but that is not what I am talking about. The discussion was about people lying dead during events waiting for rez and those people who rez them are now not doing DPS. People should help the downed every time unless it will cause them to die during big bosses but not dead.

The FULLY DOWNED should have the consideration for the other players to WP and run back. This is something that really hasnt been brought up much this thread, is how inconsiderate those who sit around waiting for rez are being to everyone else who are contributing to the success of the event.

yes forcing waypoint sounds like a good idea, but free wp? i am still opposed to free armor repairs i mean maybe up until lv 20 or something but for 80 and forever? its wrong, lets not remove any more gold sinks from the game mmmmkay? we need those

Duke Nukem.6783:

yes forcing waypoint sounds like a good idea, but free wp? i am still opposed to free armor repairs i mean maybe up until lv 20 or something but for 80 and forever? its wrong, lets not remove any more gold sinks from the game mmmmkay? we need those

As the dungeon community in this game shrinks due to negligence, one of the major gold faucets will shrink as well. This means they can gradually erode some of the existing gold sinks.

- Auto WP after 20-30 seconds of zero assistance.
- More XP and a small karma reward for rallying an ally that was in the downed state.