Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 started as a great MMO, kept you playing in a really nice manner, however lately in the patches, I have experienced some unpleasant things. At first doing dungeons was very profitable, and challenging, after the dungeons got nerfed, the loot went right after it. First TA, then CoE, and now you want to nerf CoF p1 farming. I understand the logic behind it and all, but doing level 30+ fractals is NOT worth it. The drops do not improve AT ALL. There is no point in going melee, because you will just get 1 shot regardless of your gear. So what we’re facing right now is level 30+ fractals are being done by full ranged groups, full berserker stats, healing is of no use and melees are being pretty much 1 shot. A guildie of mine runs Authristic healing for a guardian and he’s having insane trouble staying alive at 30+, practically impossible. The problem we’re going to face with the CoF p1 farming nerf, is a really massive gap between the people who just start the game, and the ones who have done all the farming and got their gear. I believe this game is at the point where the next 2 big patches will decide how many people will stay, and how many will leave. I really hope that the game has great success, but at this rate I really don’t see it happening. I really hope you guys do something to make this game drive you to play, because that’s the whole point of MMOs. Right now it feels like a single player game, once you finish your story, you are done.

I don’t really see an issue with CoF P1 “nerfing”. Just do all other paths, and do other dungeons. It’s more fun than repeatedly doing a dungeon lol. I avoid farming those anyways because I get less tokens after a run.

By the way, melee isn’t so bad. I play full zerker thief in up to fractals 16 and I rarely die or get downed. It’s just a matter of learning the dungeon and dodging at the right moments.

16 fractals is doable without AR we are talking about higher level fractals. You won’t be able to melee there mate trust me. And the nerf of CoF is another dagger to the overall loot you get all round. Let’s be honest the loot is kitten compared to some of the prices.

Well, I got 5 AR so far, and it’s not too bad. AR affects all people similarly though since it ticks a percentage of your HP, not a set amount. By fractals 30, I’m sure you’re supposed to have quite a lot of AR already.

What exactly do you people mean by nerf though? CoF loot is pretty normal compared to all other dungeons. It’s just really easy to complete P1 quickly.

My only problem is that you can complete something like the maw or fire elemental in 1 minute and get a better reward than from 1-2 hours of dungeoning, they should really balance this.

Kenshinakh, level 16 fractals is easily done by 3 full berserker players. I’m talking about 30+ when mobs are 2 levels higher than you, agony isn’t such an issue at 30, but at 40+ even with 35 AR you INSTANTLY die at the jade maw, there’s no avoiding it. Does 300% of your health as damage. The CoF p1 is the only dungeon that is even remotely profitable, I don’t mind making dungeons harder, in fact I’d love that, but the reward should be according to the difficulty. Another thing, doing level 30+ fractals is dumb because the reward is same as 10+ in the loot, the only difference is the fractal weapon skins or infused rings. The whole system is just wrong.

kenshinakh.3672:

Well, I got 5 AR so far, and it’s not too bad. AR affects all people similarly though since it ticks a percentage of your HP, not a set amount. By fractals 30, I’m sure you’re supposed to have quite a lot of AR already.

What exactly do you people mean by nerf though? CoF loot is pretty normal compared to all other dungeons. It’s just really easy to complete P1 quickly.

\

CoF path 1 can be cleared in 7 minutes and gives alot of liquid cash using omnomberry bars. it’s about 10G per hour if you do it right.

kenshinakh.3672:

By the way, melee isn’t so bad. I play full zerker thief in up to fractals 16 and I rarely die or get downed. It’s just a matter of learning the dungeon and dodging at the right moments.

So you have no idea what you are talking about, you just wanted to defend anet “just because”.

Wait, there is an upcoming nerf to CoF?

I swear to god…I will have literally nothing to do if they nerf it anymore. Also, can I get a link to where they said this?

For so long I came to these forums to defend the game. Now, I really give my opinion here. The current direction the devs are taking this game is to the pits, and in my humble opinion the game lost its uniqueness on November 15th, and then again when they introduced Laurels. And then again with guild missions. This game is no longer unique, it is like every other mmo out there, so why do I bother to play? I might have logged in for an hour in the past 4 or 5 days.

I’ll wait until they do something about precursors or if they begin to turn around to their original design philosophy. Until then, it is shelved right next to WoW, Tera, and Rift…I might log in when I am really bored, but it will not be for long.

cesmode.4257:

For so long I came to these forums to defend the game. Now, I really give my opinion here. The current direction the devs are taking this game is to the pits, and in my humble opinion the game lost its uniqueness on November 15th, and then again when they introduced Laurels. And then again with guild missions. This game is no longer unique, it is like every other mmo out there, so why do I bother to play? I might have logged in for an hour in the past 4 or 5 days.

I’ll wait until they do something about precursors or if they begin to turn around to their original design philosophy. Until then, it is shelved right next to WoW, Tera, and Rift…I might log in when I am really bored, but it will not be for long.

I feel the same way I have defended the game aswell. It has alot of potential bla bla bla. But the way things are going I don’t like it. I feel like the next 2 patches will be either the game maker or the gamebreaker. They’re gonna lose alot of people..

And with me, we are three :O
I’m also waiting the time when they will reconsider their decisions >.>

Well the state of the forums is making state of the game threads lol.

A lot of ppl wanted the open world to have a use and that what Anet seems to be aiming for. If you look at a trend with these forms and how the game changes there is a 2 month delay from the forums to the game. They are changing things base off these forums to a point but there is a delay on them.

danbuter.2314:

kenshinakh.3672:

By the way, melee isn’t so bad. I play full zerker thief in up to fractals 16 and I rarely die or get downed. It’s just a matter of learning the dungeon and dodging at the right moments.

So you have no idea what you are talking about, you just wanted to defend anet “just because”.

No, I have an idea. But I haven’t gone past fractals 16 yet to see. I know for certain that Agony hits melee and ranged for the same damage since it ticks a percent of your health. Now, is it easier for range to just avoid agony straight out vs melees? Maybe, but playing as thief for so long, I’m quite used to dodging because hits usually take me out regardless. I have a dual ranged/melee build anyways so I switch to whatever I see fit. I completely understand how it can be difficult for melees at close range in fractals for others though.

Personally, I think it’s okay for a nerf because there’s an issue with an easy dungeon for farming. People flock to it and farm and farm and farm. Anet has a few choices they can do to make less people do that. They have to nerf loot there so that people go to other dungeons and that rewards you with things that equals your time and effort, or they revamp CoF P1 to make it take as much effort as any other dungeon paths. Revamp is a much nicer solution than nerfing loot if you ask me.

Clearly, if something is easy, people are going to choose that path for farming aren’t they? It trivializes all other dungeons in a way because people run only that dungeon… Wasn’t the point of dungeons were to have fun and gear up, not to farm repeatedly for money?

It’s not like it will be terrible though. If you guys seen AC after the revamp and bug fixes, it’s a lot more interesting to play through. That’s like new content technically and I ran that place to see how the bosses changed. So if they do revamp CoF, I have no problem with it.

Also, to address the topic, I think the current state of the game is usually improving. We don’t lose content, but we gain content and new things to do with each patch. And the direction? I don’t think it is bad. It’s a response to some rather large issues the game had at the beginning.

Edit: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony
300% agony damage sounds a bit too high according to wiki.

kenshinakh.3672:

danbuter.2314:

kenshinakh.3672:

By the way, melee isn’t so bad. I play full zerker thief in up to fractals 16 and I rarely die or get downed. It’s just a matter of learning the dungeon and dodging at the right moments.

So you have no idea what you are talking about, you just wanted to defend anet “just because”.

No, I have an idea. But I haven’t gone past fractals 16 yet to see. I know for certain that Agony hits melee and ranged for the same damage since it ticks a percent of your health. Now, is it easier for range to just avoid agony straight out vs melees? Maybe, but playing as thief for so long, I’m quite used to dodging because hits usually take me out regardless. I have a dual ranged/melee build anyways so I switch to whatever I see fit. I completely understand how it can be difficult for melees at close range in fractals for others though.

Personally, I think it’s okay for a nerf because there’s an issue with an easy dungeon for farming. People flock to it and farm and farm and farm. Anet has a few choices they can do to make less people do that. They have to nerf loot there so that people go to other dungeons and that rewards you with things that equals your time and effort, or they revamp CoF P1 to make it take as much effort as any other dungeon paths. Revamp is a much nicer solution than nerfing loot if you ask me.

Clearly, if something is easy, people are going to choose that path for farming aren’t they? It trivializes all other dungeons in a way because people run only that dungeon… Wasn’t the point of dungeons were to have fun and gear up, not to farm repeatedly for money?

It’s not like it will be terrible though. If you guys seen AC after the revamp and bug fixes, it’s a lot more interesting to play through. That’s like new content technically and I ran that place to see how the bosses changed. So if they do revamp CoF, I have no problem with it.

Also, to address the topic, I think the current state of the game is usually improving. We don’t lose content, but we gain content and new things to do with each patch. And the direction? I don’t think it is bad. It’s a response to some rather large issues the game had at the beginning.

Edit: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony
300% agony damage sounds a bit too high according to wiki.

Obviously you still have no idea what you’re talking about. We’re not talking abuot AGONY we are talking about normal mobs in level 28+ that will one shot you.
No boss no agony. 1 normal mob will 1-2 shot you. What does this mean? no melee in higher fractals.

And as for your argument on the farm nerf? I think you are right it does deserve a nerf and to be made harder. but Anet must change the reward accordingly. Currently alot of daily dungeons are just not worth it for 60 tokens and a few silver. No thanks Anet.

kenshinakh.3672:

danbuter.2314:

kenshinakh.3672:

By the way, melee isn’t so bad. I play full zerker thief in up to fractals 16 and I rarely die or get downed. It’s just a matter of learning the dungeon and dodging at the right moments.

So you have no idea what you are talking about, you just wanted to defend anet “just because”.

No, I have an idea. But I haven’t gone past fractals 16 yet to see. I know for certain that Agony hits melee and ranged for the same damage since it ticks a percent of your health. Now, is it easier for range to just avoid agony straight out vs melees? Maybe, but playing as thief for so long, I’m quite used to dodging because hits usually take me out regardless. I have a dual ranged/melee build anyways so I switch to whatever I see fit. I completely understand how it can be difficult for melees at close range in fractals for others though.

Personally, I think it’s okay for a nerf because there’s an issue with an easy dungeon for farming. People flock to it and farm and farm and farm. Anet has a few choices they can do to make less people do that. They have to nerf loot there so that people go to other dungeons and that rewards you with things that equals your time and effort, or they revamp CoF P1 to make it take as much effort as any other dungeon paths. Revamp is a much nicer solution than nerfing loot if you ask me.

Clearly, if something is easy, people are going to choose that path for farming aren’t they? It trivializes all other dungeons in a way because people run only that dungeon… Wasn’t the point of dungeons were to have fun and gear up, not to farm repeatedly for money?

It’s not like it will be terrible though. If you guys seen AC after the revamp and bug fixes, it’s a lot more interesting to play through. That’s like new content technically and I ran that place to see how the bosses changed. So if they do revamp CoF, I have no problem with it.

Also, to address the topic, I think the current state of the game is usually improving. We don’t lose content, but we gain content and new things to do with each patch. And the direction? I don’t think it is bad. It’s a response to some rather large issues the game had at the beginning.

Edit: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Agony
300% agony damage sounds a bit too high according to wiki.

As stated before, Agony is not that big of an issue, it is avoidable most of the time, the mobs however will 1 shot you, I’ve told you this before, but you don’t seem to listen. I’ve also said that making dungeons harder isn’t an issue, but upping the reward with making them harder should be there too, but it isn’t. Quite like going higher than 20+ in fractals, no point. The reward doesn’t get better at all… Get your facts straight instead of beating a dead horse.

This whole argument is kind of irrelevent. While not ideal, everyone should have enough karma by the time they get 80 to get a reasonable amount of PVT/Condition gear as well as be coming close to getting their amulet through laurels or the guild system. The dungeon pieces are there to supplement this and the gains aren’t that significant. Fractals is no different. By the time you’re level 10-15 you’ve got the points for the agony resist.

The other issue I have with these posts is these supposed new people we’re talking about aren’t new at all, but rather alts. So they never get a chance to level in higher level zones, don’t loot higher level loot, and don’t have the mats for higher level gear at 80 because they’re left buying all the mats off the AH and it’s quite expensive.

Overall I think it’s being blown out of proportion though. It’s quite easy to get gear. It may not be the most ideal gear, but it’s easy to get and tide you over until you can swap out pieces for berserkers or whathaveyou. People will continue to run CoF after the nerfs because CoE is too hard for a lot of people to dodge properly. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Atherakhia.4086:

This whole argument is kind of irrelevent. While not ideal, everyone should have enough karma by the time they get 80 to get a reasonable amount of PVT/Condition gear as well as be coming close to getting their amulet through laurels or the guild system. The dungeon pieces are there to supplement this and the gains aren’t that significant. Fractals is no different. By the time you’re level 10-15 you’ve got the points for the agony resist.

The other issue I have with these posts is these supposed new people we’re talking about aren’t new at all, but rather alts. So they never get a chance to level in higher level zones, don’t loot higher level loot, and don’t have the mats for higher level gear at 80 because they’re left buying all the mats off the AH and it’s quite expensive.

Overall I think it’s being blown out of proportion though. It’s quite easy to get gear. It may not be the most ideal gear, but it’s easy to get and tide you over until you can swap out pieces for berserkers or whathaveyou. People will continue to run CoF after the nerfs because CoE is too hard for a lot of people to dodge properly. I wouldn’t worry about it.

I’m assuming you are level 1-10 fractals from your point of view of them. AR is pretty irrelevant, you can get it easily, however the MOBS 1 hit you. The main point is that it’s not worth going higher fractals because the reward is awful.

Atherakhia.4086:

This whole argument is kind of irrelevent. While not ideal, everyone should have enough karma by the time they get 80 to get a reasonable amount of PVT/Condition gear as well as be coming close to getting their amulet through laurels or the guild system. The dungeon pieces are there to supplement this and the gains aren’t that significant. Fractals is no different. By the time you’re level 10-15 you’ve got the points for the agony resist.

The other issue I have with these posts is these supposed new people we’re talking about aren’t new at all, but rather alts. So they never get a chance to level in higher level zones, don’t loot higher level loot, and don’t have the mats for higher level gear at 80 because they’re left buying all the mats off the AH and it’s quite expensive.

Overall I think it’s being blown out of proportion though. It’s quite easy to get gear. It may not be the most ideal gear, but it’s easy to get and tide you over until you can swap out pieces for berserkers or whathaveyou. People will continue to run CoF after the nerfs because CoE is too hard for a lot of people to dodge properly. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Dude are we on the same topic? Of course you can get gear. But the if dungeons are getting harder where is the increased loot that comes with it? Atm we have dungeons that offer no reward. Higher level fractals you CAN’T go melee and I will repeat this once more for those who apparently can’t read.

No matter how tanky you are, how much AR you have, how defensive you are specced, In higher level fractals 28+ You will get 1-2 maybe as a guardian 3 shot.
Fractals get harder and harder by the level. There is just no inscreased loot that comes with it.————

So all your jabbering about agony and pvt gear with karma is nonsense and not the point at all in this thread.

My ranger is 38 but thanks. Everyone knows there’s nothing past 30 but daily unlocks. Why bother doing more? this thread was more about fixing COF exploits and runs taking twice as long then it was with doing fractals 30+ for nothing new.

And by harder, you mean killing trash? Or the slight changes to AC that took about half a day for the masses to figure out?

The difficulty is relative. CoF being beaten in 7-15mins regardless of group make-u kitten tupid and done with exploits. those exploits being fixed will make it a 15-30min instance at no real increase in overall difficulty, just time.

l2p.

Atherakhia.4086:

My ranger is 38 but thanks. Everyone knows there’s nothing past 30 but daily unlocks. Why bother doing more? this thread was more about fixing COF exploits and runs taking twice as long then it was with doing fractals 30+ for nothing new.

And by harder, you mean killing trash? Or the slight changes to AC that took about half a day for the masses to figure out?

The difficulty is relative. CoF being beaten in 7-15mins regardless of group make-u kitten tupid and done with exploits. those exploits being fixed will make it a 15-30min instance at no real increase in overall difficulty, just time.

l2p.

Aren’t you seeing the irony in your post here? I’ve said that I want dungeons to be alot harder, but the reward to be equivilent to the difficulty. Please read the thread before you post things that aren’t related to the topic at all. Yes. Fix the bugs. Yes. Make it harder. No. Don’t make the reward kitten as it has become with CoE and TA.

Done fotm32 on a guardian, gs / scepter+focus, but using mainly the gs. Had no big issues with going melee most of the time – just don’t waste your dodges and blocks, and when you go berserker on stats, bring defensive utilities and traits. Use proper food and potions of X slaying, too – the potions help tremendously.
And i can’t agree about high fotm not yielding decent drops – had many exotics from fotm26+, not to mention the cool fractal skins. Many rares, cores and lodestones, too.

Still, it’s really down to the fact that if you’re playing an MMO for rewards, you should rather play one of the Zynga games. MMOs are unique because of their social take, and GW2 is simply great fun to play and explore, without being reward-oriented all the time. The graphics are stunning, the gameplay is awesome, mechanics mostly are really decent and enjoyable, and the social aspect certainly has great potential.

It’s not about the virtual pink circles or virtual gold unless you make it so, and if you do – yeah, i guess you will get bored and frustrated fast.

Regarding Fractals, I’ve always wanted an infinite dungeon with ever-increasing difficulty. (and no gating mechanic, but I’ll survive.)

The point is, since it’s infinite and the difficulty increases, sooner or later it will become impossible. For some earlier than others.

Regarding rewards, I don’t really care about rewards. If I wanted rewards, I could instead do something simple, quick and efficient.

If I’m playing a dungeon that infinitely increases in difficulty, then I’m doing it for the challenge.

The only reward I might accept is one for “reaching” the fractal scale for the first time. Not something you can get over and over again.

drkn.3429:

Done fotm32 on a guardian, gs / scepter+focus, but using mainly the gs. Had no big issues with going melee most of the time – just don’t waste your dodges and blocks, and when you go berserker on stats, bring defensive utilities and traits. Use proper food and potions of X slaying, too – the potions help tremendously.
And i can’t agree about high fotm not yielding decent drops – had many exotics from fotm26+, not to mention the cool fractal skins. Many rares, cores and lodestones, too.

Still, it’s really down to the fact that if you’re playing an MMO for rewards, you should rather play one of the Zynga games. MMOs are unique because of their social take, and GW2 is simply great fun to play and explore, without being reward-oriented all the time. The graphics are stunning, the gameplay is awesome, mechanics mostly are really decent and enjoyable, and the social aspect certainly has great potential.

It’s not about the virtual pink circles or virtual gold unless you make it so, and if you do – yeah, i guess you will get bored and frustrated fast.

The problem is most people want something to work towards, and this game doesn’t really have it, people will start leaving and the game will die. I don’t think it’s in anyone’s intrest.

drkn.3429:

Done fotm32 on a guardian, gs / scepter+focus, but using mainly the gs. Had no big issues with going melee most of the time – just don’t waste your dodges and blocks, and when you go berserker on stats, bring defensive utilities and traits. Use proper food and potions of X slaying, too – the potions help tremendously.
And i can’t agree about high fotm not yielding decent drops – had many exotics from fotm26+, not to mention the cool fractal skins. Many rares, cores and lodestones, too.

Still, it’s really down to the fact that if you’re playing an MMO for rewards, you should rather play one of the Zynga games. MMOs are unique because of their social take, and GW2 is simply great fun to play and explore, without being reward-oriented all the time. The graphics are stunning, the gameplay is awesome, mechanics mostly are really decent and enjoyable, and the social aspect certainly has great potential.

It’s not about the virtual pink circles or virtual gold unless you make it so, and if you do – yeah, i guess you will get bored and frustrated fast.

Yeah you’re a guardian you’ll survive of course. But even the most tankiest builds (altruistic healing) will have problems on that level. But what about the greatsword warriors, the dagger dagger ele’s, the dagger dagger thieves, the greatsword rangers and so on. They WILL die.

And on the reward thing. I think 75% of the community expects to see rewards come from the dungeons you do and in comparison to the difficulty of the dungeons the rewards are kitten. So you do 3 paths of CoE. Most of the time you will get blues and greens, maybe get 1 rare and a charged core. That took you about 1 1/2 hour approx.

Well thank you! 2 gold that’s only 2220 gold to to my legendary!

After CoF p1 is nerfed, there’ll be another quick run like that, trust me, there.will.be.

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

emikochan.8504:

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

It’s the mentality that is permeating the player base of this game:

Instant gratification.

Anything that isn’t “instant” is “a grind” and “against the manifesto.”

/eyeroll

Shootsfoot.9276:

emikochan.8504:

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

It’s the mentality that is permeating the player base of this game:

Instant gratification.

Anything that isn’t “instant” is “a grind” and “against the manifesto.”

/eyeroll

I’ve raided for 12+ hours in wow because of 1 boss. I don’t mind grinding, farming but thats where DR comes in. You aren’t allowed to farm according to anet.

Leths.6751:

Shootsfoot.9276:

emikochan.8504:

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

It’s the mentality that is permeating the player base of this game:

Instant gratification.

Anything that isn’t “instant” is “a grind” and “against the manifesto.”

/eyeroll

I’ve raided for 12+ hours in wow because of 1 boss. I don’t mind grinding, farming but thats where DR comes in. You aren’t allowed to farm according to anet.

Oh you and I are on the same page in regards to DR.

emikochan.8504:

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

Ofcourse and we all agree on that but the thing is there is no rewards worth doing longer runs for. and there is nothing to work towards to.

Leths.6751:

Atherakhia.4086:

My ranger is 38 but thanks. Everyone knows there’s nothing past 30 but daily unlocks. Why bother doing more? this thread was more about fixing COF exploits and runs taking twice as long then it was with doing fractals 30+ for nothing new.

And by harder, you mean killing trash? Or the slight changes to AC that took about half a day for the masses to figure out?

The difficulty is relative. CoF being beaten in 7-15mins regardless of group make-u kitten tupid and done with exploits. those exploits being fixed will make it a 15-30min instance at no real increase in overall difficulty, just time.

l2p.

Aren’t you seeing the irony in your post here? I’ve said that I want dungeons to be alot harder, but the reward to be equivilent to the difficulty. Please read the thread before you post things that aren’t related to the topic at all. Yes. Fix the bugs. Yes. Make it harder. No. Don’t make the reward kitten as it has become with CoE and TA.

the point is that CoF could be 20 times more difficult and you’re probably still getting gear too quickly for the difficulty.

And fractals, the only real difference is the agony which is a gear check and not a skill check also reinforcing that the gear is too good for the level of effort involved.

These things don’t warrant anything. When ascended armor and weapons come out they’ll no doubt be fractals 35+ which is silly. Especially since some classes like Warriors can’t really do anything as a result of poor class design and nothing to do with skill.

PvE and skill don’t relate in this game. It doesn’t relate in many games (and I was in a top tier WoW raiding guild ranked top 10 in US, so yes, I’m familiar with PvE content).

Shootsfoot.9276:

emikochan.8504:

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

It’s the mentality that is permeating the player base of this game:

Instant gratification.

Anything that isn’t “instant” is “a grind” and “against the manifesto.”

/eyeroll

I agree that instant gratification is a problem in this game, but c’mon doing a dungeon over and over and over again to get exotic gear? Doing dailies to get ascended gear?

If and when you choose to do these things, there is developer imposed boring as kitten grind that could have been implemented a hell of lot better than “do this X amount of time to get Y”.

That is why this game is grindy.

But, yea, the fact that you can get the best loot from world boss chests that take 2 minutes to get, and people think that isn’t broken, is clearly a testament to the instant gratification problem that is in this game.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

emikochan.8504:

dungeons should take more than 6 minutes – how anyone could possibly think cof1 is intended is insane :p

It’s the mentality that is permeating the player base of this game:

Instant gratification.

Anything that isn’t “instant” is “a grind” and “against the manifesto.”

/eyeroll

I agree that instant gratification is a problem in this game, but c’mon doing a dungeon over and over and over again to get exotic gear? Doing dailies to get ascended gear?

If and when you choose to do these things, there is developer imposed boring as kitten grind that could have been implemented a hell of lot better than “do this X amount of time to get Y”.

That is why this game is grindy.

But, yea, the fact that you can get the best loot from world boss chests that take 2 minutes to get, and people think that isn’t broken, is clearly a testament to the instant gratification problem that is in this game.

Well, in a perfect world you should never have to do anything twice, but it’s far from a perfect world, both IRL and in gaming.

To expect not to have to repeat anything in an MMO is very unrealistic, if you ask me, as there are limits to resources such as manpower, time, and money to make this a truly endless adventure. The people on these boards who demand never to have to do anything more than a few times are being completely unreasonable and impractical.

As big as this game is, you have to realize it IS finite. There is going to be a “grind” (as subjective a word as that is) and to think otherwise is just silly, especially since you’re not paying a subscription, nor are you being pressured to finish anything in any defined amount of time.

Logging into an MMO — and this IS an MMO — and thinking there isn’t going to be some time-demand based on goals is extremely unrealistic, if you ask me. It’s even more unrealistic to run to the forums, complain that you only have an hour or two a week to play this MMO, and then demand things be handed to you because of your time constraints.

We have people complaining on here that they can’t get ascended gear due to not being able to put the time into the game. Never mind the fact the lack of that gear isn’t stopping them one bit from playing the game, yet they still feel entitled to that gear and it should be made easier to obtain because they don’t have the time to get it.

MMO’s take dedication based on one’s individual goals. People need to scale their goals according to the time they want to dedicate to the game. That’s the beauty of this game. There are things to do all over the place which accommodate people with little time to play, or a lot of time to play.

This game is what you, the player, make of it.

Don’t expect others to make it for you.

When I first started playing this game 6 months ago, I thought great a large MMO RPG with many dungeons (AKA PVE content) to do exploration and run parties in and would be very fun like the http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Temple_Tombs. Little did I know 6 months later I got sucked into the grind (because I am a sucker for nice animation) and there was even less content than an average solo RPG, story missions are just too short and unsatisfying, especially Zhaitan. (And they still have missing dialogue even now). I finally have 6 lvl 80 professions with 95% of all the gear permutations (and fashion) that I want and really like their own individual combat mechanics and I think the combat system has a really solid foundation notwithstanding class balance issues and the constant tweaking.

The problem is that my merry band of kick kitten fully kitted characters dont really have anything to do right now except for more grinding for glowy stuff like backpieces etc. I want that kind of experience the Flame Tombs gave me initially but on a much larger scale and with more dangerous Randomized mobs with better AI who also utilizes teamwork to score combos on their own for example instead of cheezy one shot hits and perma knockdowns. If that is too demanding on the server, then more mini-bosses pls.

As for PVP and WvW, I think PvP is really a diversion more than anything else, it should not be a focus of the game and as for WvW, it requires more strategic elements and a revamp to make it interesting.

The place I am coming from is old school solo RPGs, which may drive me into other MMORPGs, emphasis on RPG. * cough * Neverwinter.

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

clay.7849:

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

Shootsfoot.9276:

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

For certain stat combinations, yes.

Khal Drogo.9631:

When I first started playing this game 6 months ago, I thought great a large MMO RPG with many dungeons (AKA PVE content) to do exploration and run parties in and would be very fun like the http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Temple_Tombs. Little did I know 6 months later I got sucked into the grind (because I am a sucker for nice animation) and there was even less content than an average solo RPG, story missions are just too short and unsatisfying, especially Zhaitan. (And they still have missing dialogue even now). I finally have 6 lvl 80 professions with 95% of all the gear permutations (and fashion) that I want and really like their own individual combat mechanics and I think the combat system has a really solid foundation notwithstanding class balance issues and the constant tweaking.

The problem is that my merry band of kick kitten fully kitted characters dont really have anything to do right now except for more grinding for glowy stuff like backpieces etc. I want that kind of experience the Flame Tombs gave me initially but on a much larger scale and with more dangerous Randomized mobs with better AI who also utilizes teamwork to score combos on their own for example instead of cheezy one shot hits and perma knockdowns. If that is too demanding on the server, then more mini-bosses pls.

As for PVP and WvW, I think PvP is really a diversion more than anything else, it should not be a focus of the game and as for WvW, it requires more strategic elements and a revamp to make it interesting.

The place I am coming from is old school solo RPGs, which may drive me into other MMORPGs, emphasis on RPG. * cough * Neverwinter.

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

No, of course there isn’t. I’m saying that once you choose what gear you want – there is normally a very repetitious developer imposed grind to get that gear, with no choice to get it any other way.

That is a 180 degree difference from GW1 where you just needed crafting mats and platinum to get gear – which you could get any way you kitten pleased.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

No, of course there isn’t. I’m saying that once you choose what gear you want – there is normally a very repetitious developer imposed grind to get that gear, with no choice to get it any other way.

That is a 180 degree difference from GW1 where you just needed crafting mats and platinum to get gear – which you could get any way you kitten pleased.

And that wasn’t a grind?

clay.7849:

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Its not challenging content that I am after per se, it is interesting content that I am after, good if its challenging in a sense if it relies on teamwork rather than utilizing a particular class to faceroll encounters. Like I mentioned – early days of Flame Temple Tombs.

Khal Drogo.9631:

clay.7849:

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Its not challenging content that I am after per se, it is interesting content that I am after, good if its challenging in a sense if it relies on teamwork rather than utilizing a particular class to faceroll encounters.

What you’re seeing there is the other edge of the “let’s get rid of the trilogy” double-edged sword. And I’m in no way saying “bring back the trilogy.”

I’m saying “define the roles better.”

Khal Drogo.9631:

clay.7849:

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Its not challenging content that I am after per se, it is interesting content that I am after, good if its challenging in a sense if it relies on teamwork rather than utilizing a particular class to faceroll encounters.

Yes, but it is still intrinsic satisfaction vs. extrinsic satisfaction. One will keep you playing and one won’t.

For you that is interesting content, for someone else that is challenging content. In both cases, it is intrinsic rewards rather than extrinsic rewards – which is what GW2 is lacking.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

No, of course there isn’t. I’m saying that once you choose what gear you want – there is normally a very repetitious developer imposed grind to get that gear, with no choice to get it any other way.

That is a 180 degree difference from GW1 where you just needed crafting mats and platinum to get gear – which you could get any way you kitten pleased.

And that wasn’t a grind?

It depends on how you define grind. Personally, I don’t find anything to be a grind, in the negative sense of the word, until I get bored or annoyed by doing something repetitive.

In GW2, you just must push through it. In GW1 you could do something completely different and still work towards your goal.

More choice = more fun. How can that be seen as something worth arguing against?

Shootsfoot.9276:

Khal Drogo.9631:

clay.7849:

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Its not challenging content that I am after per se, it is interesting content that I am after, good if its challenging in a sense if it relies on teamwork rather than utilizing a particular class to faceroll encounters.

What you’re seeing there is the other edge of the “let’s get rid of the trilogy” double-edged sword. And I’m in no way saying “bring back the trilogy.”

I’m saying “define the roles better.”

I agree 100% that roles need better defining. Gonna be hard though when they all are basically different ways of doing DPS and you can’t choose your skills.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

No, of course there isn’t. I’m saying that once you choose what gear you want – there is normally a very repetitious developer imposed grind to get that gear, with no choice to get it any other way.

That is a 180 degree difference from GW1 where you just needed crafting mats and platinum to get gear – which you could get any way you kitten pleased.

And that wasn’t a grind?

It depends on how you define grind. Personally, I don’t find anything to be a grind, in the negative sense of the word, until I get bored or annoyed by doing something repetitive.

In GW2, you just must push through it. In GW1 you could do something completely different and still work towards your goal.

More choice = more fun. How can that be seen as something worth arguing against?

Well, I’m not really arguing against it, but what I’m saying is not everybody was a huge fan of the GW1 model like you are/were.

To me, GW1 felt like a console game. It was on rails, especially with missions. The “expansion” packs — and I realize they weren’t true expansion packs — just added more rails.

We’re not going to agree on this, I realize. I’m just saying that there are a whole bunch of ways to get exotics in this game. You just don’t personally care for any of them, and that’s fine.

But those of us who do like the different ways to get exotics in this game aren’t necessarily wrong.

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

Khal Drogo.9631:

clay.7849:

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Its not challenging content that I am after per se, it is interesting content that I am after, good if its challenging in a sense if it relies on teamwork rather than utilizing a particular class to faceroll encounters.

What you’re seeing there is the other edge of the “let’s get rid of the trilogy” double-edged sword. And I’m in no way saying “bring back the trilogy.”

I’m saying “define the roles better.”

I agree 100% that roles need better defining. Gonna be hard though when they all are basically different ways of doing DPS and you can’t choose your skills.

This is my biggest beef in the game. I was expecting more of a “squad-type” of party make-up where everybody had clear roles in the party. Not just “hey, we’re all dps, but you throw some tiny heals occasionally and I’ll root this guy for 1 second” but for crying out loud, don’t stop DPSing!" party make-up.

I mean, they even tossed out the front/middle/back line setup that shined in GW1.

There’s no real tactical play in this game.

Shootsfoot.9276:

Khal Drogo.9631:

clay.7849:

Too much of this game is driven by rewards instead of driven by the actual reward of just being satisfied by beating challenging content.

The whole end game of GW2 is based on extrinsic rewards rather than intrinsic rewards. Unfortunately, that doesn’t leave enough fun in a game to make it worth playing for very long.

Its not challenging content that I am after per se, it is interesting content that I am after, good if its challenging in a sense if it relies on teamwork rather than utilizing a particular class to faceroll encounters.

What you’re seeing there is the other edge of the “let’s get rid of the trilogy” double-edged sword. And I’m in no way saying “bring back the trilogy.”

I’m saying “define the roles better.”

Isn’t that the problem? The situation is any easy content people just going to say defense is useless, let us stack more warrior to make the run faster. If it is harder content people just stack up on the amount of guardian.

The problem is if there is no trilogy, every class should potentially be equal in dps, defense and utility for balance reason. Which sounds very weird because why is a “theif” having equal amount of defense as a guardian.

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Shootsfoot.9276:

clay.7849:

Well, in GW1 I would agree that the game was what we made of it. In GW2 it is way more what the developer’s tell us to do – from skills to what to grind to get what.

The lack of choices make the grind much worse than in GW1 where I could decide what I wanted to farm, when and how many times.

Sure, I still had to do enough things to get what I wanted, but I could do 20 things 1 or two times instead of one thing twenty times.

The bottom line is that I found things that I enjoyed farming in GW1. It was up to me.

In GW2, if you don’t enjoy what you are doing to get your exotic armor – too bad. The devs made it that way and you don’t get a choice.

Personally, I like the one where I get the choice to have fun. How can that be so hard to recreate?

You can’t possibly be saying there’s only one way to get exotic armor.

No, of course there isn’t. I’m saying that once you choose what gear you want – there is normally a very repetitious developer imposed grind to get that gear, with no choice to get it any other way.

That is a 180 degree difference from GW1 where you just needed crafting mats and platinum to get gear – which you could get any way you kitten pleased.

And that wasn’t a grind?

It depends on how you define grind. Personally, I don’t find anything to be a grind, in the negative sense of the word, until I get bored or annoyed by doing something repetitive.

In GW2, you just must push through it. In GW1 you could do something completely different and still work towards your goal.

More choice = more fun. How can that be seen as something worth arguing against?

Well, I’m not really arguing against it, but what I’m saying is not everybody was a huge fan of the GW1 model like you are/were.

To me, GW1 felt like a console game. It was on rails, especially with missions. The “expansion” packs — and I realize they weren’t true expansion packs — just added more rails.

We’re not going to agree on this, I realize. I’m just saying that there are a whole bunch of ways to get exotics in this game. You just don’t personally care for any of them, and that’s fine.

But those of us who do like the different ways to get exotics in this game aren’t necessarily wrong.

Yes, I will probably do them, I just miss the fun of doing things my way.

But, I really appreciate the fact that you are one of the most civil people to talk to on these forums even though we have different opinions. That means a lot.