This is something that has been bothering me for a while… the comments that seem most often common on these forums when complaining about things.
“Dailies suck because they FORCE you to do these things!”
“Ascended items suck because you NEED to do this and this to get them!”
“Why are you adding the gear grind? Now I NEED to get the best armor!”
“More Ascended? I have eight characters, now I HAVE TO spend WEEKS equipping all of them again! Thanks for the laurels!”
NO YOU DO NOT.
You do NOT need. You WANT. These things are optional, and in a majority of cases, you can get them through other methods. Ascended items forced? Nope, they’re only a small percentage better than exotics. Not enough to really be THAT noticable. Dailies? Look over the things you can get for laurels, and you’ll see that a majority of them can be gotten in other ways, the few exceptions being the minipets and cat tonic. (And before you point out the tools and boosters, really, they’re practically equivalent to similar types.).
You people need to learn the difference between “Need/Forced” and “Want/given the option”
I agree to an extend. Though I have to point out that “It’s optional, you don’t HAVE to do it” is the worst excuse for a problem and I’m sick of hearing it.
Keep in mind that the entire game is optional.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
Lots of people claim that it goes against the manifesto where there was going to be no grind, but I do remember reading several times that there was going to be a grind for long term goals for people that wanted that, but was not <strong>required</strong>
I like to compare it with that MMO everyone loves to hate (you know which one). Back when I was playing it heavily few years ago there were dungeons, heroic dungeons and raids which comprised most of the endgame. Basically you weren’t expected to start doing heroic dungeons until you had grinded the level cap dungeons and fully geared there. Then you couldn’t really go to the harder heroic dungeons (the heroic version of level cap dungeons) until you had geared up on the easier heroics, then you wouldn’t dream of going to the starter raid until you had grinded and geared on heroic dungeons gear, and then to do each raid first you had to grin and gear up on the previous tier of raids, repeat. Basically, content was blocked from you until you grinded enough on the previous tier of content.
That’s the difference I’ve seen so far. Once you get to 80 you could get a full rare set for very little money (or karma), and basically that’s enough for almost all of the content in the game right now, excepting higher level fractals, but the content is available (higher level fractals are basically the same than lower levels but harder), but once you get there there’s really no content you can’t experience before a huge grind like in other games.
It’s a pile of Elonian protection magic, mixed with a little monk training,
wrapped up in some crazy ritualist hoo-ha from Cantha.
A real grab bag of ‘you can’t hurt me. They’re called Guardians.
I would love to have a Vision of the Mists and an Anomaly for my mesmer, but since there’s no ilvl requirement to do any of the content I don’t feel that pressure of “need”.
I can get it at my own pace which feels really good
I agree to an extend. Though I have to point out that “It’s optional, you have HAVE to do it” is the worst excuse for a problem and I’m sick of hearing it.
Keep in mind that the entire game is optional.
Your grievance with the use of the word “optional” as an excuse to the problem comes from your misunderstanding of the exact use and context of the word “optional” when we apply it to things in guild wars 2.
When we say that it’s “optional”, we mean, “you do not need to do this first in order to do or see any of the content in the game.” You do not need ascended gear in order to complete explorable dungeons. You may need ascended gear to do some later levels of fractals, but later levels are not considered new content, they are the same fights with lower tolerances on mistakes; ascended gear is not necessary for Fractals lvl 1.
Notice, this sort of system where the best gear is unnecessary to complete certain content is not present in all games. In vanilla world of warcraft, epic gear was not optional. There were simply some fights in the later dungeons that your group simply had no hope of beating without farming up epics from previous dungeons.
But in Guild Wars 2, the best gear (and the best skins) are not necessary in order stand a reasonable chance of defeating all the content in the game. Thus, they are optional.
This usage of “optional” is not the same at all as the “optional” you use when you say “the entire game is optional”.
The problem with Ascended is that they’re still about 10% better than Exotic. Right now that may not be a big problem, as it’s only bound to jewelry. This is going to be a big problem when the full set comes out. A 10% increase on both offence and defence is pretty significant.
One difference with the dailies is that if you decide in the future to use some laurels, you can’t get them immediately. If you want an option to spend laurels in the future you need to do dailies now. Thus the daily grind begins.
I think the problem is, is that ascended armor is always better than exotic and the rest of the max level armor. Not always necessary, but always better. Anet talked and talked and talked about how they didn’t want this and then added it once people got bored. It seemed like a last resort.
They said the game wasn’t about the grind to have the best armor. It’s supposed to be easily obtainable. So, in order to be as good as those that grind for armor, you need the best armor. Although maybe not a significant difference, it’s a difference and it adds to the sense that time>skill.
I agree to an extend. Though I have to point out that “It’s optional, you have HAVE to do it” is the worst excuse for a problem and I’m sick of hearing it.
Keep in mind that the entire game is optional.
Your grievance with the use of the word “optional” as an excuse to the problem comes from your misunderstanding of the exact use and context of the word “optional” when we apply it to things in guild wars 2.
When we say that it’s “optional”, we mean, “you do not need to do this first in order to do or see any of the content in the game.” You do not need ascended gear in order to complete explorable dungeons. You may need ascended gear to do some later levels of fractals, but later levels are not considered new content, they are the same fights with lower tolerances on mistakes; ascended gear is not necessary for Fractals lvl 1.
Notice, this sort of system where the best gear is unnecessary to complete certain content is not present in all games. In vanilla world of warcraft, epic gear was not optional. There were simply some fights in the later dungeons that your group simply had no hope of beating without farming up epics from previous dungeons.
But in Guild Wars 2, the best gear (and the best skins) are not necessary in order stand a reasonable chance of defeating all the content in the game. Thus, they are optional.
This usage of “optional” is not the same at all as the “optional” you use when you say “the entire game is optional”.
You NEED ascended gear to progress your character to max stats. All the stuff you listed are usually things people do in order to accomplish the ultimate gamer goal, maxed out stats. If you can recognize that playing any game is a want, then you should be able to realize that inside of a want there are needs. If those needs aren’t met then the person no longer wants. With games one of the needs is character progression.
GW2 does horribly at cosmetic progression(worst armor design) so they added ascended. Instead of just making ascended gear have an agony slot and no increase in stats, which would make it truly optional to anyone not interested in fractals, they went for stat progression. Now people are forced to grind content(dailies, missions, fractals) in order to fulfill that ultimate gamer need of max stats.
When that need cannot be fulfilled in a fun/timely manner people will quit the game because they no longer want to play it. Blockading that progression behind grinds and time gates is absolutely poor game design trying to exploit the need for progression. Not only that it hurts character variety because people don’t want to try new specs/stats combos because of the time sink that is ascended. Laurels, commendations, and Pristine fractal tokens(least of the bunch) are terrible progression systems for a set of gear that should have never been in the game.
I agree to an extend. Though I have to point out that “It’s optional, you have HAVE to do it” is the worst excuse for a problem and I’m sick of hearing it.
Keep in mind that the entire game is optional.
Your grievance with the use of the word “optional” as an excuse to the problem comes from your misunderstanding of the exact use and context of the word “optional” when we apply it to things in guild wars 2.
When we say that it’s “optional”, we mean, “you do not need to do this first in order to do or see any of the content in the game.” You do not need ascended gear in order to complete explorable dungeons. You may need ascended gear to do some later levels of fractals, but later levels are not considered new content, they are the same fights with lower tolerances on mistakes; ascended gear is not necessary for Fractals lvl 1.
Notice, this sort of system where the best gear is unnecessary to complete certain content is not present in all games. In vanilla world of warcraft, epic gear was not optional. There were simply some fights in the later dungeons that your group simply had no hope of beating without farming up epics from previous dungeons.
But in Guild Wars 2, the best gear (and the best skins) are not necessary in order stand a reasonable chance of defeating all the content in the game. Thus, they are optional.
This usage of “optional” is not the same at all as the “optional” you use when you say “the entire game is optional”.
You NEED ascended gear to progress your character to max stats. All the stuff you listed are usually things people do in order to accomplish the ultimate gamer goal, maxed out stats. If you can recognize that playing any game is a want, then you should be able to realize that inside of a want there are needs. If those needs aren’t met then the person no longer wants. With games one of the needs is character progression.
GW2 does horribly at cosmetic progression(worst armor design) so they added ascended. Instead of just making ascended gear have an agony slot and no increase in stats, which would make it truly optional to anyone not interested in fractals, they went for stat progression. Now people are forced to grind content(dailies, missions, fractals) in order to fulfill that ultimate gamer need of max stats.
When that need cannot be fulfilled in a fun/timely manner people will quit the game because they no longer want to play it. Blockading that progression behind grinds and time gates is absolutely poor game design trying to exploit the need for progression. Not only that it hurts character variety because people don’t want to try new specs/stats combos because of the time sink that is ascended. Laurels, commendations, and Pristine fractal tokens(least of the bunch) are terrible progression systems for a set of gear that should have never been in the game.
‘Max stats’ is only a goal that you put on yourself, just like Legendary. What happens? Everyone goes to the forum and whine how hard it is, or how much they have to grind. Really, if you care about 20 more precision, or 25 more power, then you need to man up and really stop whining. You really WON’T feel the difference (except in Fractals with Agony resistance). If you have no time to play GW2 and can’t complete the dailies, stop whining as well, do you expect to receive items while you are offline? NO. Know yourself and know what’s possible, you might will have ‘only’ Exotic items, but really, the extra stats Ascended items have over Exotic, is so minor, that I laugh with everyone who complains about it.
I’m not a fan of Ascended items either, but for other reasons (a lack of stat combo’s). I am happy with Laurels and laugh at everyone who says that the Daily is a grind. For some reason, no one realises Ascended is the tier between Exotic & Legendary, and it shouldn’t be possible to obtain it in 5 minutes.
Riselight [WvW] – Elementalist
Smough The Cruel [WvW] – Warrior
You people need to learn the difference between “Need/Forced” and “Want/given the option”
This is the responsibility of one’s parents, but over the last few generations they have forgotten the differences until we end up with a generation of people who demand everything and provide nothing.
Yeah it’s a goal you put on yourself. But you’ll never be on par with those who grind. I thought the whole point was to keep this from happening. To allow the same access to things as everyone else. To have the only progression horizontal, and armors to be valuable for cosmetics. Playing more should make you more knowledgable and skilled at the game, not have better stats.
Now, you can’t play casually to be on par with others. It will make some casual players turn to hardcore gamers, because they do want to have the same stats. I can see that some people don’t care about it, but some people do. You can say it’s because they want top stats, but they don’t really want to spend the time.
This game was supposed to allow people to have top stats without having to spend all the time getting there. Having top stats gives you that sense that your character is maxed and that your skill will determine the outcome. Not anymore. Now time determines the outcome when you want to do the dungeons instead of the fun and skill factor.
Yeah it’s a goal you put on yourself. But you’ll never be on par with those who grind.
Note “par” is an average. So, if we’re talking about averages you will need to be more careful in the future.
Anyway, I’m okay with not being "on par’ with someone who spends more time in the game. People who do things much more often are generally going to be better at it than I am.
About the only thing I’d say isn’t strictly dependent on actual experience is getting a book published.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Yeah it’s a goal you put on yourself. But you’ll never be on par with those who grind. I thought the whole point was to keep this from happening. To allow the same access to things as everyone else. To have the only progression horizontal, and armors to be valuable for cosmetics. Playing more should make you more knowledgable and skilled at the game, not have better stats.
Now, you can’t play casually to be on par with others. It will make some casual players turn to hardcore gamers, because they do want to have the same stats. I can see that some people don’t care about it, but some people do. You can say it’s because they want top stats, but they don’t really want to spend the time.
This game was supposed to allow people to have top stats without having to spend all the time getting there. Having top stats gives you that sense that your character is maxed and that your skill will determine the outcome. Not anymore. Now time determines the outcome when you want to do the dungeons instead of the fun and skill factor.
I don’t like to speak in terms of absolutes, but what you are talking about is simply and absolutely impossible.
Actively playing the game provides “stuff.” Coin, equipment, XP, achievements, etc. If it is possible to get a maximum of X gold per hour, then someone who plays 10 hours per day, every day, has a potential weekly income of 70X gold. Someone who plays 2 hours per day has a potential weekly income of 14X gold. It is practically impossible for the second person to make more money than the first.
Someone who plays more will have more. The problem lies in making a comparison between the casual player who doesn’t throw himself wholly into the game and the hardcore player who does. There is no comparison possible because they play the game in different ways.
It’s like comparing a pro basketball player and that really tall guy you know from work.
I agree to an extend. Though I have to point out that “It’s optional, you have HAVE to do it” is the worst excuse for a problem and I’m sick of hearing it.
Keep in mind that the entire game is optional.
Your grievance with the use of the word “optional” as an excuse to the problem comes from your misunderstanding of the exact use and context of the word “optional” when we apply it to things in guild wars 2.
When we say that it’s “optional”, we mean, “you do not need to do this first in order to do or see any of the content in the game.” You do not need ascended gear in order to complete explorable dungeons. You may need ascended gear to do some later levels of fractals, but later levels are not considered new content, they are the same fights with lower tolerances on mistakes; ascended gear is not necessary for Fractals lvl 1.
Notice, this sort of system where the best gear is unnecessary to complete certain content is not present in all games. In vanilla world of warcraft, epic gear was not optional. There were simply some fights in the later dungeons that your group simply had no hope of beating without farming up epics from previous dungeons.
But in Guild Wars 2, the best gear (and the best skins) are not necessary in order stand a reasonable chance of defeating all the content in the game. Thus, they are optional.
This usage of “optional” is not the same at all as the “optional” you use when you say “the entire game is optional”.
You NEED ascended gear to progress your character to max stats. All the stuff you listed are usually things people do in order to accomplish the ultimate gamer goal, maxed out stats. If you can recognize that playing any game is a want, then you should be able to realize that inside of a want there are needs. If those needs aren’t met then the person no longer wants. With games one of the needs is character progression.
GW2 does horribly at cosmetic progression(worst armor design) so they added ascended. Instead of just making ascended gear have an agony slot and no increase in stats, which would make it truly optional to anyone not interested in fractals, they went for stat progression. Now people are forced to grind content(dailies, missions, fractals) in order to fulfill that ultimate gamer need of max stats.
When that need cannot be fulfilled in a fun/timely manner people will quit the game because they no longer want to play it. Blockading that progression behind grinds and time gates is absolutely poor game design trying to exploit the need for progression. Not only that it hurts character variety because people don’t want to try new specs/stats combos because of the time sink that is ascended. Laurels, commendations, and Pristine fractal tokens(least of the bunch) are terrible progression systems for a set of gear that should have never been in the game.
But do you NEED max states?
Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
When reading posts about “need,” just substitute “want” for need, just as a discerning reader inserts “in my opinion” into 99% of forum posts, whether the poster put those words in or not. There’s no reason to get exercised about people using inexact terminology on the internet. Doing so is only going to increase your blood pressure, and it isn’t going to change how people post, anyway.
To get these items currently, you NEED to hold fast to a certain narrow path to obtain these items. What players WANT is another path to the same end.
As long as people aren’t complaining to hear themselves talk, or to stir up an argument, alternate opinions are a good thing. I, for one, don’t like the token grind path this game has recently decided to go down. I’d like to see a more natural progression of gathering these pieces.
We delete the trading post and all currencies. We then make everything in the game obtainable from a vendor for free. We then remove leveling in all forms.
There. No more grind. But tell me this: how long before you get bored of the game? How long before people start complaining that achievements are a grind?
This is something that has been bothering me for a while… the comments that seem most often common on these forums when complaining about things.
“Dailies suck because they FORCE you to do these things!”
“Ascended items suck because you NEED to do this and this to get them!”
“Why are you adding the gear grind? Now I NEED to get the best armor!”
“More Ascended? I have eight characters, now I HAVE TO spend WEEKS equipping all of them again! Thanks for the laurels!”
NO YOU DO NOT.
You do NOT need. You WANT. These things are optional, and in a majority of cases, you can get them through other methods. Ascended items forced? Nope, they’re only a small percentage better than exotics. Not enough to really be THAT noticable. Dailies? Look over the things you can get for laurels, and you’ll see that a majority of them can be gotten in other ways, the few exceptions being the minipets and cat tonic. (And before you point out the tools and boosters, really, they’re practically equivalent to similar types.).
You people need to learn the difference between “Need/Forced” and “Want/given the option”
Thread/post of the year.
So many people think they need Ascended gear. But little do they know, the extra stats they give are just a fraction higher than max Exotics. I would say that 99% of the complaint threads we see are because everyone WANTS something they cannot have.
Yeah it’s a goal you put on yourself. But you’ll never be on par with those who grind. I thought the whole point was to keep this from happening. To allow the same access to things as everyone else. To have the only progression horizontal, and armors to be valuable for cosmetics. Playing more should make you more knowledgable and skilled at the game, not have better stats.
Now, you can’t play casually to be on par with others. It will make some casual players turn to hardcore gamers, because they do want to have the same stats. I can see that some people don’t care about it, but some people do. You can say it’s because they want top stats, but they don’t really want to spend the time.
This game was supposed to allow people to have top stats without having to spend all the time getting there. Having top stats gives you that sense that your character is maxed and that your skill will determine the outcome. Not anymore. Now time determines the outcome when you want to do the dungeons instead of the fun and skill factor.
You’re playing a game with 80 levels… this game has had vertical progression from DAY ONE. Yet you ignore that fact don’t you.
Well one could say you do not “NEED” to be bothered by what other people complain about, but here you are…should we assume you “WANT” to be bothered by it?
We delete the trading post and all currencies. We then make everything in the game obtainable from a vendor for free. We then remove leveling in all forms.
There. No more grind. But tell me this: how long before you get bored of the game? How long before people start complaining that achievements are a grind?
This is essentially sPvP, or street fighter, or Madden Football, or any of a number of different games that supposedly rely on skill rather than grind.
Anything I post is just the opinion of a very vocal minority of 1.
We delete the trading post and all currencies. We then make everything in the game obtainable from a vendor for free. We then remove leveling in all forms.
There. No more grind. But tell me this: how long before you get bored of the game? How long before people start complaining that achievements are a grind?
This is essentially sPvP, or street fighter, or Madden Football, or any of a number of different games that supposedly rely on skill rather than grind.
I was being sarcastic but it seems like that’s what the people complaining want. They want this game to be an electronic version of Barbie and Ken. Again, I’m being sarcastic.
Skill > Stats. That extra stat boost a max Ascended gear gives won’t save you if you don’t know how to kite/dodge.
Skill > Stats, up to a point. That extra boost my partial Ascended gear gives already saved my life a couple times, each time I got away with just 50 HP. It exists, it matters and it bothers me that I don’t have it. It bothers me to think others I fight have much worse gear than me too. I don’t want either.
The game is grindy because people choose to make it that way.
No, the game is grindy because they’ve designed that way. You’re just better at ignoring that fact than some of us.
Nonsense. WoW is a grind. This is as far away from grind as any MMO I’ve played.
And I couldn’t play that game for more than a month or two. Anet’s manifesto was saying things like there’d only be grind for different looking weapons without better stats. You know. Like different dungeon sets or legendaries. Sounded good. Then they noticed that a lot of people used to other MMOs were complaining about a lack of progression and wham. Here we are. It’s not the same game as was released and the manifesto is out the window. That’s cool. I got my money’s worth out of it, but I wish it was still a game I could enjoy.
Did Moses deliver this Manifesto after fasting in the desert for a fortnight or something? Is it carved into mile-high stone tablets by His pinkie nail?
I get so tired of seeing this that I tune out the rest of the post whenever someone writes “but the manifesto says…”
Reality check: What the devs wanted to do years ago and what they come up with are not going to be the same. A significant number of their customers want something, and a significant number of their customers want something else. They are doing their best to please both groups, which of course means they just p off everyone.
The manifesto has less effect on the game than the “what I want to be when I grow up” essay I wrote when I was five has had on my life. It means nothing.
This is essentially sPvP, or street fighter, or Madden Football, or any of a number of different games that supposedly rely on skill rather than grind.
I thought Madden games depended on picking whichever football team was considered “the best” at that year’s release and stomping on everyone else? And Street Fighter 2 was “Chun Li, mash kick button while standing in corner, repeat until win”.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Reality check: What the devs wanted to do years ago and what they come up with are not going to be the same. A significant number of their customers want something, and a significant number of their customers want something else. They are doing their best to please both groups, which of course means they just p off everyone.
In the case of a lot of those things, I heard from some people I know who are at least tangentially involved in game design go: “They won’t pull it off to the extent they’re talking about, but it sounds like it’ll be a fun game anyway”.
The manifesto has less effect on the game than the “what I want to be when I grow up” essay I wrote when I was five has had on my life. It means nothing.
Yeah, I wanted to be an astronaut. I think certain medical conditions prevent that from happening, so I really am sure it has no meaning anymore
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
The game is grindy because people choose to make it that way.
No, the game is grindy because they’ve designed that way. You’re just better at ignoring that fact than some of us.
Nonsense. WoW is a grind. This is as far away from grind as any MMO I’ve played.
And I couldn’t play that game for more than a month or two. Anet’s manifesto was saying things like there’d only be grind for different looking weapons without better stats. You know. Like different dungeon sets or legendaries. Sounded good. Then they noticed that a lot of people used to other MMOs were complaining about a lack of progression and wham. Here we are. It’s not the same game as was released and the manifesto is out the window. That’s cool. I got my money’s worth out of it, but I wish it was still a game I could enjoy.
I think the only thing that goes against that manifesto is the ascended stuff. I’m not sure what else there is? Or are you talking about something else?
I doubt there are many games or at least successful games that are the same game 6 months after release. Like I said, I’ve played lots of MMOs, since vanilla Everquest, in fact, and this is by far the least grindy. And I’m not sure what there is in this game that requires you to grind. We’re back to the need/want thing again. Frankly, I don’t see enough difference between exotics vs ascended to think that somehow I need them. I have them, but I never felt like I had to grind to get them.
Don’t put stats behind a grind. Only put skins and titles and achievements. And put them behind some CHALLENGING grind, not mindless.
Skill > Stats. That extra stat boost a max Ascended gear gives won’t save you if you don’t know how to kite/dodge.
And the player with Ascended gear who can kite and dodge is in a better position than one who is equally skilled in exotics. They added a power creep and the resulting typical level cap stat grind, there’s no dancing around that.
———
It’s not simply that they went back on the manifesto, they went back on a good deal of what was used to market the game, period. Likening how a company goes about selling a product to childhood wishes that didn’t pan out is just bizarre.
———
Back to the original topic:
“Force” is probably too strong of a word but players are given great incentive to do the dailies for laurels. There could be other items added later down the line. People have a tendency of chasing whatever is perceived as the best and that is Ascended. I can especially understand the competitive player who lives in WvWvW, I’m going to go out on a limb and say most people would want to know if they lost a fight, its because they were out played or overwhelmed and not because of stat disadvantage and if you’re not getting anything above exotics, you’re just going to have to make peace with that.
Actually, what I see is quite the opposite. The design decisions we´ve seen with Ascended and World ranks cater to people with this exactly mentality of “I deserve better rewards for my time! How come I am not stronger than a person that has half game played hours than me? I want better stats”.
I´ve never seen people who criticizes Ascended gear asking for everything in the game to be given to them on a silver platter. They just expected the game to be true to its ideal of not being on an eternal grind for better stats, and after reaching the stat plateau the progress would be horizontal (cosmetic, titles, achievements, etc). But now, 7 months from release we already have a new gear tier and vertical progression on WvW.
People who WANTs more and more things (and probably shall never be satisfied with not having a vertical progression to work towards to) are the ones who like the Ascended grind, and not the other way around.
Anyone who claims they “need” ascended gear needs to go back to GW1 and try facing a group of Mursaat without infused armor. That will show you what “needing” certain gear really means.
(Even then you technically don’t NEED it, but your poor monk is going to get carpel tunnel syndrome if you don’t.)
