Guild Wars 2

Hello forum,

This is my first post on here, and it is regarding something that is core to the game, but is, in my opinion, hurting the game. The downed state. I understand that the downed state can provide a lot of “Holy crap that was epic!” moments, especially in sPvP, but on the whole, I believe it is damaging the build versatility in this game. Most of this post will be PvE related, but please feel free to comment in regards to sPvP and WvW also.

Please read everything I have to say before posting your replies. Thank you.

Guild Wars 2 has many great combat mechanics that aid in the versatility of build design, some of these could do with some changes of their own (e.g. in my opinion there are too many boons and condis that can be flung around by players who aren’t even specced into boons and condis at all), but on the whole, the combat mechanics provide a fairly solid foundation for versatility in build creation.

Unfortunately, as we all know, in PvE build versatility flies out the door. “AC P3. Exp 80s only. ZERKER.” “Link gear please.” “No necros.” etc. In PvE, if you aren’t running zerker, you aren’t as viable for the team. I understand that there will always be the want to kill enemies as fast as possible to clear a dungeon asap, and also the less time an enemy is alive, the less time they have to hurt you. But I feel that there is not enough consequence for players running a full zerker build. This is due to many factors, including the ever prevalent stacking tactics in a lot of PvE content.

But I propose this to you: How many times have you been stacked in a corner, bursting down an enemy with all of your zerker friends, when all of a sudden, one or two or even three of your party get put into the downed state (after all, you are all standing on that big boss and taking all of his damage), only to be immediately rallied off a nearby low level enemy, or speed ressed by the rest of the party? The party finishes off the boss, collects rewards and moves on. There was no real consequence for those players ‘dying’.

What if, those players had actually DIED? Defeated. Deaderoony. No downed state, just dead. Now all of a sudden, the team is one or two or three players down, and have potentially lost 20, 40, or 60% of their DPS. The boss is quite likely too hard to kill now, as the DPS has been lowered, AND the boss focusses targets more often, and the team most likely wipes. Now we have some real consequence for the team running a full zerker setup.

Of course, they could instead not stack, and fight the boss ‘properly’. This would decrease their overall damage done, but if they are actually good players, they could still kill the boss while surviving themselves, all still while being full zerker. But in this scenario, the only reason they were able to run glassier builds is because they are good players (which makes sense).

So now, we’ve removed the downed state, and all of a sudden people are finding that dungeon runs are too hard to do with a full zerker setup (aside from the good players potentially), so people start trying out tankier builds. Builds that give them more health, more armour, more healing power, so that they don’t die so easily. Now our lfg post says “AC P3. Exp 80s only. Looking for dps” or “… Looking for healer” or even “AC P3. Exp 80s only.”

I know ArenaNet stated very early on that they didn’t want people to have to depend on a certain role and potentially have to wait around for that role to be filled, but I think they overestimated how long it would take for that role to be filled with an active player base, and also, as can be seen with my 3rd lfg example above, I personally don’t believe a team would ‘have’ to depend on any role, they might find that it’s easier when they have a healer in their group, but that doesn’t mean that they could not finish the content without one, they would just have to play smarter.

I do not believe that the downed state will be removed from the game, it has been there for too long. I only wish they had never come up with it in the first place. I would love if it was removed, but I just can’t see it happening. At least a minor tweak they could make would be to remove the rally from kill mechanic, as this comes under ‘exploit’ in my books in most scenarios (especially PvE). At least with the rallying gone teams would actually have to revive downed players rather than just burst down a weak enemy, but it wouldn’t be as grand a fix as removing the downed state completely.

Of course, as I stated earlier, there are other mechanical issues that need fixing, and removing the downed state would not be the be all and end all solution to the (in my opinion) toxic zerker meta, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Let me know what your thoughts are on this issue, and please provide constructive feedback about my proposed change. Please try to keep replies on the topic of the downed state as much as possible, rather than having it spew over into too many other topics.

Kind regards,
Josh.

P.S. My apologies for the long post.

I have an easier solution that can be done now without any changes made. If people don’t like the restrictions that other people request in their LFG, create your own LFG. There’s absolutely no reason to essentially nerf a playstyle because you do not like it for feel that it’s not the proper way to play.

My problem isn’t with the restrictions people put on their lfg posts, my problem is that zerker is the only restriction, and rightly so, as it is by far the most (and in some peoples opinions, the only) viable build.

Playing as a zerker is fun, I do like it. But the risk for playing as a zerker is not high enough to merit the reward it currently gives.

mando.2730:

My problem isn’t with the restrictions people put on their lfg posts, my problem is that zerker is the only restriction, and rightly so, as it is by far the most (and in some peoples opinions, the only) viable build.

Playing as a zerker is fun, I do like it. But the risk for playing as a zerker is not high enough to merit the reward it currently gives.

It’s the most optimal build (technically stat combo), not the only viable one.

I agree, it isn’t the only viable build in my opinion (as can be gleaned by the fact that I want more build diversity in the game), but it is the best choice far and away, as it provides very high rewards, for very little risk. Even bad players can play a zerker build and get away with it for almost all PvE content, all I want to do is increase the risk so that playing a zerker becomes less viable on the whole (assuming that everyone isn’t amazing at the game).

mando.2730:

All I want to do is increase the risk so that playing a zerker becomes less viable on the whole (assuming that everyone isn’t amazing at the game).

I agree with this. I’d love to have more diversity accepted by the playerbase. But I do not want to lose downed state.

• In GW2, build is largely a function of traits, weapon choices and utility/elite choices.
• Gear serves a different purpose, determining whether you do largely condition or direct damage, and the continuum trade-off between glass cannon and bulky.
• You propose a means to make dungeon instances harder. This could move more players to the bulk side of the glass/bulk scale. All this would do is create a greater dichotomy in the LFG. Those who could still do the content as glass would, and would shun those who cannot, same as now. So, you’d have more players being shunned. They would then likely adopt a different gear set that had some bulk while still doing high damage. Perhaps we’d see a Knight’s meta. Then we’d see people kittening about it. Meanwhile, the real issue, dungeons that have been done ad infinitum and as a result are obsolete, would still be in place.
• You believe your suggestion would promote diversity. It would not. Diversity is already in the game, in the form of the contributions the various professions bring to the table, and in the versatility to switch out weapons and skills between combats to meet the different needs of the next encounter. There is more build diversity in GW2 than you find in trinity games, where all party members use the same builds the entire instance.
• Even if you insist on gear diversity, exchanging one “best” gear set for a different “best” gear set is not going to create diversity. At best, you’d have two camps, using different sets. At worst, you’d still have “zerker only” and you’d have more people kittening about it.
• GW2 dungeons can be done now in any gear set one desires. The only thing you cannot do is get into those LFG parties that require a given set. However, if you make the dungeons substantially harder, you are going to limit the options of every “anything goes” party out there. That would kill gear diversity, rather than promote it.
• You seem to believe that “not stacking” is fighting properly. ANet designed dungeons, originally, to challenge “coordinated groups of skilled players.” Whether they succeeded or not, what is there to coordinate in GW2 other than the application of offensive or defensive buffs? And where do you have to be to benefit from those buffs? Game design suggest that fighting in proximity to each other is intended, and is thus fighting properly.

IndigoSundown.5419:

• In GW2, build is largely a function of traits, weapon choices and utility/elite choices.
• Gear serves a different purpose, determining whether you do largely condition or direct damage, and the continuum trade-off between glass cannon and bulky.

Gear is of course heavily tied into what a ‘build’ is. E.g. As you said, if I build in my traits and weapon choices for conditions, then whether or not I choose condi damage gear makes a huge difference on my builds effectiveness. I would personally not split ‘build’ and gear up, gear is part of the build.

• You propose a means to make dungeon instances harder. This could move more players to the bulk side of the glass/bulk scale. All this would do is create a greater dichotomy in the LFG. Those who could still do the content as glass would, and would shun those who cannot, same as now. So, you’d have more players being shunned. They would then likely adopt a different gear set that had some bulk while still doing high damage. Perhaps we’d see a Knight’s meta. Then we’d see people kittening about it. Meanwhile, the real issue, dungeons that have been done ad infinitum and as a result are obsolete, would still be in place.

I promote a means to provide some real consequences for running a glassy spec, where there currently is none. This would lead to lfg posts being more divided, but that also means that they would be more varied! Not just ‘zerker only’. This is a good thing. There will always be players who shun others, that cannot be prevented, and I don’t believe that “more” players would be shunned. Yes we would see the meta shift, and knights may become the ‘optimal’ choice for direct damage, but that makes some sense at least, as it is a balance of damage and defense, a middle ground, rather than the current meta which makes very little sense.

• You believe your suggestion would promote diversity. It would not. Diversity is already in the game, in the form of the contributions the various professions bring to the table, and in the versatility to switch out weapons and skills between combats to meet the different needs of the next encounter. There is more build diversity in GW2 than you find in trinity games, where all party members use the same builds the entire instance.

Diversity inside each profession is what, in terms of build diversity. It does exist already of course, but it is not promoted due to the zerker meta having no real consequence. Of course gw2 has more diversity than trinity mmos, but it isn’t promoted in PvE, which means in most scenarios it may as well have not been there in the first place.

• Even if you insist on gear diversity, exchanging one “best” gear set for a different “best” gear set is not going to create diversity. At best, you’d have two camps, using different sets. At worst, you’d still have “zerker only” and you’d have more people kittening about it.

The idea is that every gear set should have its ups and downs, perhaps as stated earlier, knights would become far more prevalent, but as I said, that makes sense, as it is the middle ground for direct damage. The problem is that zerker has huge ups, and small downs, therefore rendering it far superior to anything else.

• GW2 dungeons can be done now in any gear set one desires. The only thing you cannot do is get into those LFG parties that require a given set. However, if you make the dungeons substantially harder, you are going to limit the options of every “anything goes” party out there. That would kill gear diversity, rather than promote it.

Of course it is correct that any gear set can complete content, although as stated earlier, zerker is so superior compared to other sets, that it doesn’t make sense to run anything else most of the time. Also, it seems that you think I want dungeons to be substantially harder, when in fact, all I want is there to be a real consequence for running a glassy spec (you die). Therefore, the options of “anything goes” parties will not be affected at all.

• You seem to believe that “not stacking” is fighting properly. ANet designed dungeons, originally, to challenge “coordinated groups of skilled players.” Whether they succeeded or not, what is there to coordinate in GW2 other than the application of offensive or defensive buffs? And where do you have to be to benefit from those buffs? Game design suggest that fighting in proximity to each other is intended, and is thus fighting properly.

Stacking does not take coordination, and does not take skill. So where does that leave the stacking method of fighting? The majority of people I know who play the game all believe (at least partially) that stacking is more of an exploit than anything else.

Thanks for your feedback,
Josh.

Note: I forgot to mention that when it comes to the meta shifting, while knights may become more prevalent, that doesn’t mean it would be ‘the new zerker’, where everyone runs it. As I stated, the only reason everyone runs zerker is that there are no real ‘downs’. Comparing zerker and everything else, zerker wins every time, whereas comparing knights and everything else, knights doesn’t always win, as it is more balanced compared to all other gear sets.

The down mechanic is a fun and interesting one. It adds an extra layer of complexity. As for the “zerker meta” , i think it’s more of a pve design problem . I would look at WvW for ways to make PvE combat more engaging. There zerker is possible but not the dominant build.

Yeah it certainly provides for some fun and interesting moments (“Holy crap that was epic!” moments as I said in the post). Of course there are lots of issues that need sorting out for PvE, but I just feel as though the downed state is something that doesn’t need to be there, and I do believe that removing would add a need to have players not being so glassy. Or as stated, at least get rid of the silly rally from kill mechanic.

WvW has real people rather than AI, so I suppose we should also be pointing the finger at bad AI design in PvE? Something which they have said is getting fixed in HoT apparently.

Thanks for your input.

Personally, I would just remove zerker gear from the game entirely.

In other words, I would just stick Vitality onto all gear, as a non-optional stat.

Pretty much in the same way as you have Stamina, as a non-optional stat, in WoW.

People feeling forced to run zerker does not make them (or some of them, at least) happy and it is bad for the game, as it helps facilitate this abysmally dull, effectively compulsory, skip>stack>melee playstyle.

You’re right, the downed state, also, probably doesn’t help, either, as doesn’t the fact that buffs are gained from stacking only.

As both of these things make the most boring part of the gameplay (IMO), in this game (i.e. stacking), the most optimal.

…and yes, yes, we all know you could, in theory, make your own group, where everyone has to where pink only and stand on their heads eating spaghetti, while playing, if you wanted to.

But, that is not the point here, as you shouldn’t have to always make your own groups in order to play in a more inventive, less restrictive, less mind-numbingly boring way.

…and the more interesting way should never be the less efficient way.

Making the game interesting, for all and preventing cheesing should be the primary job of the game’s devs; not its players.

Especially as we all know that most hardcore players will always go the quickest and easiest route, even if it ruins the game for others and makes them just give up and leave.

Tigaseye.2047:

Personally, I would just remove zerker gear from the game entirely. In other words, I would just stick Vitality onto all gear, as a non-optional stat. Pretty much in the same way as you have Stamina, as a non-optional stat, in WoW.

Interesting idea. I’d love to run some numbers on this and see how it could potentially affect things. I had never thought about removing the set altogether.

People feeling forced to run zerker does not make them (or some of them, at least) happy and it is bad for the game, as it helps facilitate this abysmally dull, effectively compulsory, skip>stack>melee playstyle. You’re right, the downed state, also, probably doesn’t help, either, as doesn’t the fact that buffs are gained from stacking only. As both of these things make the most boring part of the gameplay (IMO), in this game (i.e. stacking), the most optimal.

Yes there are multiple things that seem to be contributors. As an aside, I made this post specifically about the downed state as it was something that I had never seen anyone mention before.

…and yes, yes, we all know you could, in theory, make your own group, where everyone has to where pink only and stand on their heads eating spaghetti, while playing, if you wanted to. But, that is not the point here, as you shouldn’t have to always make your own groups in order to play in a more inventive, less restrictive, less mind-numbingly boring way. …and the more interesting way should never be the less efficient way.

Thank you! I’m glad that you understand the point, I have heard many people say before “just play however you want, it doesn’t matter”, when in fact, the simple fact that zerker and stacking etc is so much more viable means that it really does matter. When you know that your build is far less effective than full zerker, it almost forces you to run a zerker, because you obviously want to be as effective as possible.

Making the game interesting, for all and preventing cheesing should be the primary job of the game’s devs; not its players. Especially as we all know that most hardcore players will always go the quickest and easiest route, even if it ruins the game for others and makes them just give up and leave.

Yeah, and I suppose it is a difficult job. I have nothing against the ArenaNet devs, and I’m sure that they’re trying their best to rebalance their game (while still having to pump out new content to keep the boss happy).

Thanks for the input.

Pve balance doesn’t matter.

Coldtart.4785:

Pve balance doesn’t matter.

It does for people who enjoy playing PvE. Please try to be less ignorant in the future.

mando.2730:

Thank you! I’m glad that you understand the point, I have heard many people say before “just play however you want, it doesn’t matter”, when in fact, the simple fact that zerker and stacking etc is so much more viable means that it really does matter. When you know that your build is far less effective than full zerker, it almost forces you to run a zerker, because you obviously want to be as effective as possible.

Exactly.

My pleasure, BTW – thanks for the thoughtful and interesting posts.

Downed state is one of the best things in this game, countless of times when i fought veterans/elites/champions i managed to kill while downed at the last second, LAST SECOND before fully dying… you don’t have this in any other games…

Remember how other games are, the boss has less health than the normal damage you do… 1 hp, but you get hit first, BOOM dead, start over.

It would not help with anything at all, taking the downed state out, it would just frustrate and infuriate people more, and you would get kicked out of a party so much more fast for the smallest mistake (maybe you had lag for 2-3 seconds, or maybe you play a squishy class and pressed the wrong button…I’m maining a thief so timing is essential, and a few times i pressed the wrong button by mistake and resulted in my death…well not death death but Downed State)

Downed state is what makes the game unique, and there is build diversity, and yes i agree there are some that ask for zerker only 20k AP (never understood this to be honest, what’s the relation between AP and how well you know a dungeon, maybe i just run dungeons, like it’s the only thing i do in the whole game, day in day out… you can’t make that many achievements inside a dungeon…so i’d be lets say somewere around 5k AP … and i see so many asking for 10k-20k…it’s amazing…weird people

No matter what ANET does, players will always find the most optimal build. Take out zerker? another will become the new META, it’s just how things are. But it doesn’t mean that there is no diversity.

On my warrior i don’t run Full Zerker, on my Thief also…it’s just more fun to experiment with different builds and sets…until you get something that feels like home.

So yeah i’m sorry but stupid idea, to take out downed state it would destroy the game.

Cheers

Downed state is the most fun thing about GW2. Also, you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

mando.2730:

• You propose a means to make dungeon instances harder. This could move more players to the bulk side of the glass/bulk scale. All this would do is create a greater dichotomy in the LFG. Those who could still do the content as glass would, and would shun those who cannot, same as now. So, you’d have more players being shunned. They would then likely adopt a different gear set that had some bulk while still doing high damage. Perhaps we’d see a Knight’s meta. Then we’d see people kittening about it. Meanwhile, the real issue, dungeons that have been done ad infinitum and as a result are obsolete, would still be in place.

I promote a means to provide some real consequences for running a glassy spec, where there currently is none. This would lead to lfg posts being more divided, but that also means that they would be more varied! Not just ‘zerker only’. This is a good thing. There will always be players who shun others, that cannot be prevented, and I don’t believe that “more” players would be shunned. Yes we would see the meta shift, and knights may become the ‘optimal’ choice for direct damage, but that makes some sense at least, as it is a balance of damage and defense, a middle ground, rather than the current meta which makes very little sense.

No, it would not just magically make there be more diversity. People would continue to run Berserker and, in a stubborn fury, would become even more angry when people messed up than when it happens now. Berserker is not the most optimal for people that can’t survive consistently, and thus “ping zerker” would become not just a simple entry requirement, but would instead be a “are you actually any good at this game?” call. If you don’t have it, you’re not good enough. And are you seriously going to tell me that people are actually going to admit to not being good at that game as a general whole? That’s just as likely as never seeing a single person, ever, who gets angry in this game.

• Even if you insist on gear diversity, exchanging one “best” gear set for a different “best” gear set is not going to create diversity. At best, you’d have two camps, using different sets. At worst, you’d still have “zerker only” and you’d have more people kittening about it.

The idea is that every gear set should have its ups and downs, perhaps as stated earlier, knights would become far more prevalent, but as I said, that makes sense, as it is the middle ground for direct damage. The problem is that zerker has huge ups, and small downs, therefore rendering it far superior to anything else.

It already has its own ups and downs. Vitality and Toughness, if put on in significant amounts, directly make you live longer. That’s an upside that is 100% there and entirely relevant for times you get hit. Its downsides are the entire rest of the sets of stats that aren’t being pumped up. However, when time is literally the only desired thing, the obvious answer is the one that has the fastest possible potential as a general rule. Even if it’s not always the right choice some of the times (there are plenty of people that die enough that tankier stats would be a good idea).

• You seem to believe that “not stacking” is fighting properly. ANet designed dungeons, originally, to challenge “coordinated groups of skilled players.” Whether they succeeded or not, what is there to coordinate in GW2 other than the application of offensive or defensive buffs? And where do you have to be to benefit from those buffs? Game design suggest that fighting in proximity to each other is intended, and is thus fighting properly.

Stacking does not take coordination, and does not take skill. So where does that leave the stacking method of fighting? The majority of people I know who play the game all believe (at least partially) that stacking is more of an exploit than anything else.

Thanks for your feedback,
Josh.

Requiring that everyone get onto specific spots (in this case: the same one) and use their skills in a specific time and order is literally the most coordination that’s possible in this game, or really any MMO out there. Stacking requires that for most dungeons to go smoothly when using Berserker stats, and requires it in 100% of them for optimal times. Similarly, standing right next to everything that can one-shot you and using your dodges/defensive skills at the opportune time is a very obvious application of skill.

Let’s just insert “Hard Mode” like in GW1.

Problem sorted, case closed

After reading the OP, I have to ask were you here from bwe or the launch of the game?
You probably dont remember but way back before they changed it dead people could wp while the rest of the party were still engaged in battle. It was changed so people couldn’t just zerg their way through dungeons keeping the boss in combat so he didnt regen or reset.
Removing the down state from pve at this point would only do one thing:
Create an even more specific rift in the LFG tool or make it useless altogether. People would only want to party with people they know that can carry their own weight without becoming a useless corpse. It would make those who tolerate the odd carry in their party change and be less forgiving, leading to new less experienced players being kicked. New players would get frustrated quicker and possibly give up playing altogether.
I do not see the downed state being removed or re-worked anytime in the future.

Regarding the glassy spec thing:
Go into a dungeon with people using glass builds that basically copy and pasted them from metabattle. See how long they last.
The people who use glass builds that have taken the time to learn their profession and use effective team configurations will generally melt any mobs before there is any real danger to the group.
What your lengthy posts have been about is not so much a game mechanic as it is about a learn to play issue. Basically you are saying that 3 years into the game you don’t have any challenging content available to you.
I might suggest that you try amuse yourself with 2-3 manning the usual dungeons you 5 man. When that becomes too easy there is always soloing content.

If downed state is giving you so much trouble, you’re in a crummy team. It punishes you for failing to coordinate without instantly making you lose all progress.

It balances the game vs. spike damage that can take a player to zero health fast but then is left in a weakened state. If there was no downed state, glass cannon builds could shoot teams down fast like ele-spike in guild wars 1 PvP.

Would removing zerker gear from the game work though,

If ANET changed it that rabid gear was the most powerful all you would see in the LFG is,

FULL RABID GEAR only ping gear or go home

Aslong as 1 type stat type offers any advantage over another be it 1% to 100% people will use it,

I don’t run dungeons anymore due to the complete boredom of it, but I did find when I did people ran zerker so they could get threw it as fast as possible because its boring.

AH MO MO! thanks for making me think of obs spike teams again. (good times)

You keep insisting that zerker gear has no “downs”. It has, you die more easily. People running it succesfully just know to avoid this. Don´t get me wrong, I really dislike GW2 combat with the dungeon stacking and all. But if you change the game there will be a new best gear people will flock to, nothing changed. I wonder what that whole zerker complaining is really about. I suspect it is 10% trinity fans finally wanting to get their beloved, dusty system in here and 90% bad players who cannot manage damage mitigation in zerker, feel left out and demand better players having their toys removed.

Akagami.9861:

Downed state is one of the best things in this game, countless of times when i fought veterans/elites/champions i managed to kill while downed at the last second, LAST SECOND before fully dying… you don’t have this in any other games…

Yes, as previously mentioned it does have its fun little moments. It makes for good viewing I suppose, which may have been something on their minds when they created it.

It would not help with anything at all, taking the downed state out, it would just frustrate and infuriate people more, and you would get kicked out of a party so much more fast for the smallest mistake (maybe you had lag for 2-3 seconds, or maybe you play a squishy class and pressed the wrong button…I’m maining a thief so timing is essential, and a few times i pressed the wrong button by mistake and resulted in my death…well not death death but Downed State)

Right, so the people who make mistakes too much wouldn’t play glassy builds, because the risk would be too high for them, that’s the point, that’s the way it should be.

No matter what ANET does, players will always find the most optimal build. Take out zerker? another will become the new META, it’s just how things are.

See my previous response to this, regarding ups and downs of different gear sets.

On my warrior i don’t run Full Zerker, on my Thief also…it’s just more fun to experiment with different builds and sets…until you get something that feels like home.

As previously mentioned, of course you can run different builds, but when zerker has such low risk vs such high reward, it makes no sense to run different builds. This is the main point that needs changing, there are multiple ways to do this, and this was just a suggestion of one of the ways it could be balanced more.

So yeah i’m sorry but stupid idea, to take out downed state it would destroy the game. Cheers

Thanks for your feedback, however you didn’t really specify how/why it would “destroy the game”.

Royal.2693:

you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

“can really play” – This has been responded to a couple times now. Check above for response.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

Unfortunately zerker is too superior to other builds, and the reason is related to the risk vs reward stuff mentioned earlier.

1st: Zerk isn’t OP, it’s having perma invulnerability through dodges, blinds, aegis, more blinds, stunds/dazes, interupts and so on, wich is OP. The fact the only logical choice for gear being zerk when not taking dmg at all should be clear. I’d think this would be a better perspective…

You shouldn’t go down.

The moment you go down, you either failed yourself OR the team failed to provide active defence.

This is also a reason why experienced teams sometimes do take well necro’s. they can provide quite a lot of mitigations, have a AOE well blind, being a nice addition to the elementalists sandstorm and a ~10 second uptime of protection if the necro is patient enough.

Understand 2 elemetalists can completely nullify any and all dps from enemies for ~12-14 seconds, for a tiny loss in DPS. 1`ele startes fire and the other starts earth, together they will stack 15 might and fury when staff build, and 1 does egular MS, lava foint, fire skill #3, icebow, while other starts earth, #2 for the might, waits until mobs are there and casts sandstorm (glyph of storms, earth attunement) then continues fire/icebow. AT that poiint the 2nd ele can pick up the fact sandstorm has nbeen cast and switch to earth and take over, casting sandstorm himself. if you have any necro, the 2 ele’s can run fir e until the necro’s well gives in about 6-8 seconds in the fighteand then use earth after eachother. Giving more freedom to stack might and casting initial bomb while in protection and aoe healing field (well of blood)
Stability stays something for the guard,
Banner buffs would be optimal for DPS. making dungeons also a bit GWEN.

Of courese there are a lot of different options reducing dmg. making the downed state missable for etruly experienced runners, but it would destory the wannabee zerker rings…

And IMHO you coud so this kind of things as well on a full nomads group to nullify any incoming dmg, but you would competely waste all 3 stats on armor. Making the choice for active defence and nomads quite a awkward one.

Hrm, while I agree that it would add meaningful risk to squishy character setups, I don’t think removing the downed state would be sensible. Overall, we die fast in GW2. Removing the ability to come back from that would be overly punishing for players.

Garth Thurgen.1380:

No, it would not just magically make there be more diversity. People would continue to run Berserker and, in a stubborn fury, would become even more angry when people messed up than when it happens now. Berserker is not the most optimal for people that can’t survive consistently, and thus “ping zerker” would become not just a simple entry requirement, but would instead be a “are you actually any good at this game?” call. If you don’t have it, you’re not good enough. And are you seriously going to tell me that people are actually going to admit to not being good at that game as a general whole?

People who mess up too much won’t play a zerker, as the risk is too high. People who only want zerkers and good players can have that too. The other players who can’t play zerker or don’t want to play zerker, can play too, except now, they aren’t being punished for not running zerker. Now they have made a balanced/meaningful choice between squishiness and damage. Previously, they still had this choice, but it was not really meaningful, due to the risk vs reward factor being so unbalanced for zerkers.
There’s nothing wrong with being bad at a game, I would hope that people understand this.

It already has its own ups and downs. Vitality and Toughness, if put on in significant amounts, directly make you live longer. That’s an upside that is 100% there and entirely relevant for times you get hit. Its downsides are the entire rest of the sets of stats that aren’t being pumped up. However, when time is literally the only desired thing, the obvious answer is the one that has the fastest possible potential as a general rule. Even if it’s not always the right choice some of the times (there are plenty of people that die enough that tankier stats would be a good idea).

See ‘risk vs reward’ in terms of zerker gear mentioned above. High ups + low downs = unbalanced.

Requiring that everyone get onto specific spots (in this case: the same one) and use their skills in a specific time and order is literally the most coordination that’s possible in this game, or really any MMO out there. Stacking requires that for most dungeons to go smoothly when using Berserker stats, and requires it in 100% of them for optimal times. Similarly, standing right next to everything that can one-shot you and using your dodges/defensive skills at the opportune time is a very obvious application of skill.

Your idea of stacking seems to be a glorified one, stacking involves all 5 players standing in one spot, blasting for might etc and using their damage skills to burst down an enemy. If that is skill then I must be a pro player.

Carighan.6758:

Hrm, while I agree that it would add meaningful risk to squishy character setups, I don’t think removing the downed state would be sensible. Overall, we die fast in GW2. Removing the ability to come back from that would be overly punishing for players.

We die fast because we run zerker. If we don’t run zerker, we don’t die as fast, thus the “punishment” is actually just the risk of playing zerker.

Muffin Nook.5923:

After reading the OP, I have to ask were you here from bwe or the launch of the game?

I watched beta content but I didn’t play the beta.

Removing the down state from pve at this point would only do one thing:
Create an even more specific rift in the LFG tool or make it useless altogether. People would only want to party with people they know that can carry their own weight without becoming a useless corpse. It would make those who tolerate the odd carry in their party change and be less forgiving, leading to new less experienced players being kicked. New players would get frustrated quicker and possibly give up playing altogether.

Alternatively, new players would just not run zerker until they get better at the game? There should be some big risk for running a build as strong as zerker, currently there is not due to the fact that you have so many second chances when dying.

The people who use glass builds that have taken the time to learn their profession and use effective team configurations will generally melt any mobs before there is any real danger to the group.

Exactly, so if they’re good at the game, they should be able to play zerker, though currently, even people who aren’t good at the game can usually get away with it. (“downed, oh no nvm back up now” etc)

What your lengthy posts have been about is not so much a game mechanic as it is about a learn to play issue. Basically you are saying that 3 years into the game you don’t have any challenging content available to you. I might suggest that you try amuse yourself with 2-3 manning the usual dungeons you 5 man. When that becomes too easy there is always soloing content.

My issue is more to do with the fact that zerker is too easy (due to those second chance deaths I mentioned), not that the content itself is too easy.

Mo Mo.1947:

It balances the game vs. spike damage that can take a player to zero health fast but then is left in a weakened state. If there was no downed state, glass cannon builds could shoot teams down fast like ele-spike in guild wars 1 PvP.

Right, so if you can’t dodge the damage or negate it with boons like aegis or protection, then don’t run a zerker, and you won’t insta die.

Algreg.3629:

You keep insisting that zerker gear has no “downs”. It has, you die more easily.

But the point is that you don’t actually die. You get downed.

I wonder what that whole zerker complaining is really about. I suspect it is 10% trinity fans finally wanting to get their beloved, dusty system in here and 90% bad players who cannot manage damage mitigation in zerker, feel left out and demand better players having their toys removed.

Well for me, it’s that zerker is too superior over every other build. Which causes the game to be unbalanced, and almost forces people to play zerker just so they can feel effective.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

1st: Zerk isn’t OP, it’s having perma invulnerability through dodges, blinds, aegis, more blinds, stunds/dazes, interupts and so on, wich is OP. The fact the only logical choice for gear being zerk when not taking dmg at all should be clear. I’d think this would be a better perspective…

Yes there are certainly some other mechanics that need a look over for balance issues.

The moment you go down, you either failed yourself OR the team failed to provide active defence.

Exactly, and if you’ve failed or your team has failed, there should be some consequence aside from the small loss in dps uptime while you’re being revived.

Of courese there are a lot of different options reducing dmg. making the downed state missable for etruly experienced runners, but it would destory the wannabee zerker rings…

Destroying the wannabee zerkers would of course be a good thing. It should be a build that takes serious skill to run.

You cannot single out Downed State which clearly plays a much greater role in different aspects of the game than just in the scenario mentioned by you. The problem of there being only one viable build in this game can be attributed to various reasons:

1. Extra efforts put in by Anet to avoid the MMO Trinity
2. The way Toughness and Vitality work in this game
3. Monsters don’t hit hard enough (Anet goes to the extent of weakening strong mobs in response to casual players finding them “hard to kill”)
4. Dodge – which enables glass cannons to kill Lupi – lol by your argument we should remove dodge from the game first.

And probably more factors which I can’t remember as of now……

This is a design flaw……..should have been fixed in the last 3 years…..

Well I guess the wannabee zerkers comprise a large part of the LFG at the momenty, when pugging (I pug 95% of all my runs I get 33-50% good runs, with truly experience ppl, I get 33% decent runs, mostlky with 1 or 2 ppl who are still trying to figure out things and I have 15% of nooblets, who stand there pull and get instawiped due to no food, no stacking (might), breaking stack, no protection, blinds, aegis and so on. I also have about 5-10% troll runs with ppl wanting to be carried on x build or lower level chars….

Just saying downed stats removed will make well 60% of my present runs unviable due to idiots. You do not know how often I just stood somewhere with a full zerk ele, blasting away at a boss due to all my guards, warriors and other ppl in party dying due to stupidity. I sometimes manage to pull things off, but not always… killing 66% spider in AC solo isn’t too difficult, but kiting kohler does pose some problems when not having anything to mitigate or stabilize…. somtimes an elemental powder comes ion very handy though..

When I really think about it, indeed “Dodging” is the main culprit here…….With the Dodge feature you can avoid damage completely. Wear full zerk gear and zerk trait…..when a boss like Lupi cannot hit you due to dodge, there is absolutely no need to use any other build!

Cosmin.8306:

The down mechanic is a fun and interesting one. It adds an extra layer of complexity. As for the “zerker meta” , i think it’s more of a pve design problem . I would look at WvW for ways to make PvE combat more engaging. There zerker is possible but not the dominant build.

Is it also fun when there is no down state skill to attack stealth classes? I can agree with you with the other classes in but will never agree with stealth classes who can go stealth and kill you in downstate.

If downstate should be fun and challenge: why make it exception to only stealth classes?

Ankushp.7245:

You cannot single out Downed State which clearly plays a much greater role in different aspects of the game than just in the scenario mentioned by you.

You’re right, I was only thinking about it in terms of PvE, but whether or not it has a real need to be in the other game modes, I don’t know.

4. Dodge – which enables glass cannons to kill Lupi – lol by your argument we should remove dodge from the game first.

Perhaps dodge should be removed from the game. Dodging however, has some level of skill associated with it where the downed state does not.

Good input thanks.

Part 1:

One of the problems I personally have with Downed State is, that it is too weak to actuallly have a realistic chance to comeback from it and the obnoxious drive of the downed state to kill you, instead of giving you at least a chance to come back by its own way too strong health degeneration.

Getting downed is already a punishment in itsrlf enough, as you lose your normal skill bar and receive instead 5 craptastic BS skills and being immobilized like food on the silver platter, unable to move, unless you have such a skill like the elementalists that allows them to flee invulnerable a long distance into safety behind a gate entrance that foes can’t follow you into to be able to heal you up.

I think downed state hurts this game and basically exisst only to artificially draw a combat into the length to give the superior side the chance to finish their foes off with some stylish move… so Finishers…
Thats the only reason why downed state exists, so that theres a sense behind finishers with that Anet makes money with.

But I personally think, ANet can have both…giving players finishers to end battles quickly, but that without the need of havign the downed state mode in the way how it works currently, but rather with a Downed State, that can happen, if you skillfully fight against an enemy hitting “weak spots” and having then at the right tiem good reflexes to finish foes off with finishers if their health threasholds are at a fitting place for that, like having lesser than 20% health.

Characters have basically 3 Weak Spots – The Back and the Sides, to hitting these spots with critical hits should give a player also the chance to “break” the foe.
Basically, every player should also receive like boss monsters a “Break Bar” and if you brign this break bar to zero and the foe has at that moment lesser than 20% health, players can activate their Fiinishing Moves if they press while attacking the F-Button at the right moment.

This change would mean that the Finishing Moves owuld have to be redesigned in their animations yes, they should feel more like special attacks (think of FF7 Limit Breaks), lesser like eye candy, that roots you for felt an half eternity to the spot to pin down your fow into the ground making you vulnerable to get spiked to death self in that time …

Part 2;

If your health reaches Zero, then you are defeated, this should make defense skills and dodging/positioning more important. There shold be no second chance to come back simply from killing something – what is the second most annoying thing about the whole craptastic system around the downed state, that it allows very cheap comebacks in the midsts of an epic battle, you were just about to finish your foe that you have battle hard agaisnt for quite some time ancd then your foe comes back, only because your ally killed off some stupid minotaurs or moas in WvW in the near, that your foe has hit before them good enough to make it count for him as a “kill” too…ergh WTF!!! /facepalm

This is something, that needs to get removed instantly, otherwise the downed system will always be nothing but a big farce of a joke that can’t be taken any serious as a system to work properly.

Anet should bring back besides of making these changes to the downed system back as as System the Morale System of GW1.

If you keep on getting defeated permanently, your Morale will decrease, what should result in a decrease of Maximum Health of 5% per Demorale Stack, max 5 Stacks.

If you keep on defeating foes, without getting defeated, your Demorale will become lesser, until you start to build up Morale, which iwll be max 25 Stacks of 2% more Max Health.

Another change from removing the Downed State from everyone should be, that Anet redesigns all of the Downed State Skills into some new Utility Skills for the CLasses and increases for all Classes due to the remove of the Downed State the maximum Basic Health of all Classes, so that it becomes in general a bit harder to defeat players to quickly, what would also benefit the more heavy healthy character builds and would weaken a bit the Berserker Meta, because they wouldn’t then be able to kill so super quickly and easy anymore and would need to hit their targets abit more often, while profitating compared to Vitality Builds just only a bit from the max basic health boost from the Downed State System removaö.

Means, so more Vitality a Character has, so bigger should be the Max Basic Health Boost from the Removal of the downed State System.
Increasing that way the max Health of Characters due to removing the Downed State, which worked basically as secondary health bar in the background would have also the positive side effect for more defensive high health builds naturally ,that it would make these builds together with the break bar system alot harder to finish off, than for example a low max health berserker build, that is alot easier to bring to under 20% health after having broken their defense through hitting their weak spots.

Plus, my suggestion would brign back some nice GW1 nostalgia with the nice morale system, that worked imo alot better, than the current downed state system does, while being also more punishing and rewarding at the same time, than the downed state system and making it not possible to get cheap comebacks from killing something, that isn’t your enemy., but just a stupid creature, that is at the wrong time at the wrong place.

Cosmin.8306:

The down mechanic is a fun and interesting one. It adds an extra layer of complexity. As for the “zerker meta” , i think it’s more of a pve design problem . I would look at WvW for ways to make PvE combat more engaging. There zerker is possible but not the dominant build.

Where is the fun and interesting when stealth players have advantage in stealth?
If it is fun and interesting: why is there no down skill stealth skill to attack stealth players?

Let me ask you last question: ask a stealth class how fun and interesting down state is and they will tell you always because Arena net made down state exception only for them.

(I am not angry with you, but want to only give disagree response to you)

" If a company design their games by making Exceptions; It Is Game Over!! they have already lost their players "

Removing zerker from the game would be nice. Zerker, killing pve build diversity since 2012.

DarkSyze.8627:

Cosmin.8306:

The down mechanic is a fun and interesting one. It adds an extra layer of complexity. As for the “zerker meta” , i think it’s more of a pve design problem . I would look at WvW for ways to make PvE combat more engaging. There zerker is possible but not the dominant build.

Where is the fun and interesting when stealth players have advantage in stealth?
If it is fun and interesting: why is there no down skill stealth skill to attack stealth players?

Let me ask you last question: ask a stealth class how fun and interesting down state is and they will tell you always because Arena net made down state exception only for them.

(I am not angry with you, but want to only give disagree response to you)

" If a company design their games by making Exceptions; It Is Game Over!! they have already lost their players "

Rangers are nearly impossible to kill if they’re alive long enough to call their pet to heal them, also they can interrupt their foe.
Guards can push away groups, so interrupt.
Engineers can also push away groups (but also the people rezzing them) they can also interrupt the stomp like
Warriors who can interrupt a stomp and also get up and use their normal skills (which saved us quite some few times in fractals and also pvp/wvw)
Necros do quite a lot of damage when downed, not only by sucking out the life of the person trying to stomp them but also putting a field under themselves and fear their opponents, thus interrupting a stomp.
Mesmers have clones and can make themselves invisible.
Eles can just run away to safety.
And we have thieves who can port out of AoE and interrupt a stomp by making themselves invisible.
So basically every class can interrupt at least one stomp on their own though the methods are different – you don’t really have a point, sorry.

Dark, thats nonsense, Downed State is no exception for Stealth Classes, you can also easily get stomped without having any chance to deal damage by someone, who uses at the moment of stomping you skills which make them invulnarable, like that ranger signet, that lets their pet eat the damage for them, or that warrior skill that blocks all kinds of damage and enables them to finish you also easily without that you can damage them.
If your foe uses now such a skill, or stealths first to have an easier time finishing you withotu gettign disturbed by yours or someones elses attacks, makes no difference…just with the real difference, a Stealth Player CAN STILL RECEIVE DAMAGE, while being in Stealth and thus can be killed or downed self, before they can finish you.
This can’t happen with any class, that eats no damage due to cheap invulnerability “god mode” skills, where you basically can stop thenm from finishing you off only, if you can CC them away from you while they have no Stability.

But I guess, the thief hate of bias was very strong with you in your posting, that you simply oversaw, that there are also other classes, that can finish you easier, than certain other classes :P
You also don’t have to forget, that certai nclasses are by their design more or less designed for that “Role” of being the Finisher.
Thieves are like vultures, they hunt the weak and old out of the rows of enemies and finish them quickly and silent off so that no one under the enemy hopefully recognizes how their numbers become lesser and lesser.
Its their role to finish off enemies efficiently as its part of their main role to be effective against single targets if played well and to remove squishy targets quickly from the battle field, so that they can’t support their allies from the back line and to build up also that way pressure as offensive support by quickly reducing the numbers of the enemy one by one unseen in the turmoil of the battles, especially in WvW where it can be often very hectic, if some large zergs clash into each other, often full of lots of scaled up players that are an easy prey for thieves to defead and finish off from stealth

PS: and in case i misunderstood you Dark and you meant it the otherway around with interrupts, Jana before me = 100% agree.

Orpheal.8263:

PS: and in case i misunderstood you Dark and you meant it the otherway around with interrupts, Jana before me = 100% agree.

I’m not so sure if I got his post right, but he now has two answers – and I like yours as well. Well timed stomps are an art itself, no matter the class/es – I’m still not that good at it.

Algreg.3629:

You keep insisting that zerker gear has no “downs”. It has, you die more easily. People running it succesfully just know to avoid this. Don´t get me wrong, I really dislike GW2 combat with the dungeon stacking and all. But if you change the game there will be a new best gear people will flock to, nothing changed. I wonder what that whole zerker complaining is really about. I suspect it is 10% trinity fans finally wanting to get their beloved, dusty system in here and 90% bad players who cannot manage damage mitigation in zerker, feel left out and demand better players having their toys removed.

No, it’s a realisation that all these things, combined (not just zerker gear), are encouraging players to play in a boring, formulaic way, which ruins what could be a really good game.

I’ve said this before, but my guild chat is full of “we’re so good at cheesing” comments.

A well designed game, in this way, simply doesn’t allow cheesing (or as little as is humanly possible).

…and it sure as heck doesn’t actively encourage it.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well I guess the wannabee zerkers comprise a large part of the LFG at the momenty, when pugging (I pug 95% of all my runs I get 33-50% good runs, with truly experience ppl, I get 33% decent runs, mostlky with 1 or 2 ppl who are still trying to figure out things and I have 15% of nooblets, who stand there pull and get instawiped due to no food, no stacking (might), breaking stack, no protection, blinds, aegis and so on. I also have about 5-10% troll runs with ppl wanting to be carried on x build or lower level chars….

Just saying downed stats removed will make well 60% of my present runs unviable due to idiots. You do not know how often I just stood somewhere with a full zerk ele, blasting away at a boss due to all my guards, warriors and other ppl in party dying due to stupidity. I sometimes manage to pull things off, but not always… killing 66% spider in AC solo isn’t too difficult, but kiting kohler does pose some problems when not having anything to mitigate or stabilize…. somtimes an elemental powder comes ion very handy though..

You’re missing the entire point of this thread…