Guild Wars 2

Royal.2693:

Downed state is the most fun thing about GW2. Also, you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

I strongly disagree with you, I think tank-healer-dps is way more interesting and diverse than dps-dps-dps. Unreasonable hate on holy trinity is pointless, as it been tested many years to be the best way to design an MMO, lack of holy trinity simplified GW2’s dungeon . Yeah sure tanking and healing might not be fun, but is stacking and mashing buttons any better than holy trinity?

One of the problems is that trinity-less play is a relatively new thing in MMO’s. I believe the original dungeons were experiments that were not tuned before launch. They started the process of tuning with AC. They nerfed AC story mode because it was harder than the explorable paths. Since — other than FotM — ANet has done nothing with dungeons.

ANet is still experimenting to find the sweet spot with mechanics and different ways to play through encounters. It’s just that the experiments are taking place in persistent world play, not in small group instanced play. In persistent world play, the main issue seems not to be that downed state makes the content too easy, it’s that too many people die and don’t WP. Thus, when I see statements about downed state ruining the game because of dungeons, I have to laugh, because ANet abandoned dungeons two plus years ago.

Haven’t read all the whole thread yet, but taking into mind what the OP starts off with —

I can see where you’re coming from but definitely don’t want downed state to go. As for introducing diversity into PvE, the only way you’ll do that is to regulate perks. That is, look at what builds (traits, weapons, utilities, gear/runes/sigils) then tweek each aspect so, to get to do certain things or have access to certain perks, you need to sort of aim for it.

Some examples:

-you mentioned downed state. Separate each aspect of downed state (skills/attacks, hp, heal/rally) then start looking to improve certain builds that aim to improve them. I.e. make it so, while downed, armor is a huge factor in how long you can survive downed; make having higher vitality improves how quickly you get healed by party members; offense already greatly improves the chance to rally. So, zerk types still have a good chance to rally because they can do more damage with their downed skills BUT if they don’t have toughness/armor, they won’t last long while downed if attacked, having more vitality means people can bring you up easier and having more toughness means you can survive getting smacked while downed until someone can bring you up.

-another aspect is conditions. Might be tougher to get better results from your blinds, weakness, cripples, etc unless you take traits or gear that improves them. If there were a stat that aimed to potentize your conditions, perhaps the system can reward you with more powerful and interesting effects from your blinds, weakness, cripples, etc if you aim for it.

So on and so forth. Currently, there is no reward for focusing on anything but critical chance and straight damage (power/ferocity) and there is only a minute reward for condition damage primarily because you can’t. There are no stats that improve those type of things, everybody’s weakness/blind/etc and boons are the same, heals are minor, toughness only makes a difference in niche situations. Yes, this means that everyone can do everything, but it also means the possibilities are throttled. Since everyone can throw out any condition, you won’t ever get truly impressive condition effects. Basically, supreme high burst damage holds specialization hostage.

Akagami.9861:

Downed state is one of the best things in this game, countless of times when i fought veterans/elites/champions i managed to kill while downed at the last second, LAST SECOND before fully dying… you don’t have this in any other games…

Remember how other games are, the boss has less health than the normal damage you do… 1 hp, but you get hit first, BOOM dead, start over.

It would not help with anything at all, taking the downed state out, it would just frustrate and infuriate people more, and you would get kicked out of a party so much more fast for the smallest mistake (maybe you had lag for 2-3 seconds, or maybe you play a squishy class and pressed the wrong button…I’m maining a thief so timing is essential, and a few times i pressed the wrong button by mistake and resulted in my death…well not death death but Downed State)

Downed state is what makes the game unique, and there is build diversity, and yes i agree there are some that ask for zerker only 20k AP (never understood this to be honest, what’s the relation between AP and how well you know a dungeon, maybe i just run dungeons, like it’s the only thing i do in the whole game, day in day out… you can’t make that many achievements inside a dungeon…so i’d be lets say somewere around 5k AP … and i see so many asking for 10k-20k…it’s amazing…weird people

No matter what ANET does, players will always find the most optimal build. Take out zerker? another will become the new META, it’s just how things are. But it doesn’t mean that there is no diversity.

On my warrior i don’t run Full Zerker, on my Thief also…it’s just more fun to experiment with different builds and sets…until you get something that feels like home.

So yeah i’m sorry but stupid idea, to take out downed state it would destroy the game.

Cheers

I strongly disagree with you, take out downed state would not destroy the game but help it instead, just think about it in depth, downed state is completely unnecessary for pve, does it really bring anything eles except a “wow I just killed boss during downed state by spamming 1” moment that quickly fade away after a while? No , it does not, all it does is removing the viability of healing build because what is the point of healing when you can just kill a mob and rez. Also unique=/= good please keep that in mind, downed state is a unique mechanic but not necessary the right one and based on the current state of pve it is definitely not being beneficial to the game and build diversity.

1. Downed state is one of the key elements and selling points of this game.
2. Dungeons is, sadly, in the same category as underwater combat. Something ANET has left to rot in a ditch and moving away from. A single new, underwhelming path in 2½ years, replacing a deleted one and nothing buzzed about dungeons in WoT.
3. Since there’s no surprise elements in the dungeon scripts, once you’ve ran the instances a couple a times you know when to dodge or use damage reducing spells and won’t be downed under normal circumstances even if using no armor at all. Check Youtube for examples.
4. Considering how weak the economy is in this game, it’s a good thing having players who want to perform well to use different stat-sets for PvE and WvW. (PvP is already a freebie gearwise).
6. Quit being lazy and hop on the zerk train like everyone else. If the gold for time invested were less than now, all those zerkers you hate so much would probably stop running dungeons alltogether for something else more lucrative and you wouldn’t be able to piggy-ride them anyway.

IndigoSundown.5419:

One of the problems is that trinity-less play is a relatively new thing in MMO’s. I believe the original dungeons were experiments that were not tuned before launch. They started the process of tuning with AC. They nerfed AC story mode because it was harder than the explorable paths. Since — other than FotM — ANet has done nothing with dungeons.

ANet is still experimenting to find the sweet spot with mechanics and different ways to play through encounters. It’s just that the experiments are taking place in persistent world play, not in small group instanced play. In persistent world play, the main issue seems not to be that downed state makes the content too easy, it’s that too many people die and don’t WP. Thus, when I see statements about downed state ruining the game because of dungeons, I have to laugh, because ANet abandoned dungeons two plus years ago.

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon, and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy, because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build. It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity, this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

warbignime.4610:

I strongly disagree with you, take out downed state would not destroy the game but help it instead, just think about it in depth, downed state is completely unnecessary for pve, does it really bring anything eles except a “wow I just killed boss during downed state by spamming 1” moment that quickly fade away after a while? No , it does not, all it does is removing the viability of healing build because what is the point of healing when you can just kill a mob and rez. Also unique=/= good please keep that in mind, downed state is a unique mechanic but not necessary the right one and based on the current state of pve it is definitely not being beneficial to the game and build diversity.

Not sure about you but I’ve had various different returns on different professions. Soloing multiple bosses on a Ranger but getting downed, I can still control my pet so stopping someone from escaping with my dog and downing them with my attacks then turning my pet to heal me, get up and finish the guy off. Or in PvE, hiding on my thief to screw up the mob AI so they leave me alone while I heal or getting to a safe place for a respite on my Elementalist. Or on a group on my warrior, I get downed and I try to get back up but the situation is bleak as everyone gets downed now, I can force myself back up, use my elite to bring the party back but in turn sacrifice myself.

It changes by situation and profession. You can do a lot with the downed state other than 111111rally.

Gambit.8425:

1. Downed state is one of the key elements and selling points of this game.
2. Dungeons is, sadly, in the same category as underwater combat. Something ANET has left to rot in a ditch and moving away from. A single new, underwhelming path in 2½ years, replacing a deleted one and nothing buzzed about dungeons in WoT.
3. Since there’s no surprise elements in the dungeon scripts, once you’ve ran the instances a couple a times you know when to dodge or use damage reducing spells and won’t be downed under normal circumstances even if using no armor at all. Check Youtube for examples.
4. Considering how weak the economy is in this game, it’s a good thing having players who want to perform well to use different stat-sets for PvE and WvW. (PvP is already a freebie gearwise).
6. Quit being lazy and hop on the zerk train like everyone else. If the gold for time invested were less than now, all those zerkers you hate so much would probably stop running dungeons alltogether for something else more lucrative and you wouldn’t be able to piggy-ride them anyway.

1. downed state is not the main selling point of the game, people don’t buy GW2 because of it has downed state, that is just not the case, it is a key element of the game but not necessary a good one,all it does is limit build diversity.
2. Which is resulted by downed state.
3.Highly experienced and skilled players should not be compared with average and majority of player base.
4. WHAT? are you talking about, how does that has anything relate to economy, completely off topic .
5. Nice counting technique
6.GW2 became a gold farming simulator is just so sad.

warbignime.4610:

is stacking and mashing buttons any better than holy trinity?

Yes it is. Because you’re not forced to do it.
In trinity game you’re forced into tank and spank which is almost the same but without having to get good.

Leo G.4501:

warbignime.4610:

I strongly disagree with you, take out downed state would not destroy the game but help it instead, just think about it in depth, downed state is completely unnecessary for pve, does it really bring anything eles except a “wow I just killed boss during downed state by spamming 1” moment that quickly fade away after a while? No , it does not, all it does is removing the viability of healing build because what is the point of healing when you can just kill a mob and rez. Also unique=/= good please keep that in mind, downed state is a unique mechanic but not necessary the right one and based on the current state of pve it is definitely not being beneficial to the game and build diversity.

Not sure about you but I’ve had various different returns on different professions. Soloing multiple bosses on a Ranger but getting downed, I can still control my pet so stopping someone from escaping with my dog and downing them with my attacks then turning my pet to heal me, get up and finish the guy off. Or in PvE, hiding on my thief to screw up the mob AI so they leave me alone while I heal or getting to a safe place for a respite on my Elementalist. Or on a group on my warrior, I get downed and I try to get back up but the situation is bleak as everyone gets downed now, I can force myself back up, use my elite to bring the party back but in turn sacrifice myself.

It changes by situation and profession. You can do a lot with the downed state other than 111111rally.

That is not the point of my response.

warbignime.4610:

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon, and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy, because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build. It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity, this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

This was news to me Do you have any actual proof of your theory, because to my knowledge ANET just prefer zergier kind of content like Dry Top, The Silverwastes and all of WoT from what we’ve seen. “The whole zone working together for the greater good yada BS”.

warbignime.4610:

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon …

Citation needed. I’ve never seen an ANet post to that effect. In fact, my contention that they’ve abandoned dungeons is based on observation of performance. While we can infer that if they don’t make any changes to dungeons for years, they’ve abandoned them, we cannot infer why without more data.

warbignime.4610:

… and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy,

Might stacking, combined with knowledge of encounters that are pushing three years old, makes the dungeon content easy, not downed state.

warbignime.4610:

… because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build.

Downed state did not discourage Anchor Guardians, nor AH Guards. It did not discourage water eles and blasting water fields. Players found a faster way to do the encounters which did not include those sacrifices. It wasn’t because of downed state.

warbignime.4610:

It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity…

What? All they would have to do is tighten up the timing a bit so that the coordination of defensive procs is required. Why didn’t they? My guess is because they wanted more people using the dungeons, and the number of players who can pull off a well-coordinated run — while increasing due to the lengthy time to practice — is not all that high.

warbignime.4610:

… this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

Again, you’re making assumptions.

warbignime.4610:

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon, and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy, because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build. It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity, this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

Source? If there are none then you are trying to present your opinion as fact.

One could easily argue that the amount of effort to find/remove exploits and ensure that they do not appear in future content was too much for the limited replay value thus dungeons were abandoned.

Gambit.8425:

warbignime.4610:

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon, and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy, because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build. It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity, this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

This was news to me Do you have any actual proof of your theory, because to my knowledge ANET just prefer zergier kind of content like Dry Top, The Silverwastes and all of WoT from what we’ve seen. “The whole zone working together for the greater good yada BS”.

You mean the whole development process of living world is not enough proof?

warbignime.4610:

You mean the whole development process of living world is not enough proof?

Again with presenting opinion as fact. If you can’t even go into detail of why you have the opinion you might as well just finish devolving your argument to either:“Are not” or :Is too".

warbignime.4610:

Gambit.8425:

warbignime.4610:

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon, and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy, because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build. It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity, this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

This was news to me Do you have any actual proof of your theory, because to my knowledge ANET just prefer zergier kind of content like Dry Top, The Silverwastes and all of WoT from what we’ve seen. “The whole zone working together for the greater good yada BS”.

You mean the whole development process of living world is not enough proof?

Proof of downed state in dungeons being one of the reasons ANET abandoned them? Nope, had nothing to do with that.

During the presentation of WoT they talked about how GW2 have the friendliest MMO community because whereever you are downed it’s a strong possibility that a random stranger comes to the rescue. So the rally mechanic is something they take pride in having.

Gambit.8425:

warbignime.4610:

Gambit.8425:

warbignime.4610:

Downed state is one of the reason Anet abandoned dungeon, and the main issue is that downed state made the content easy, because of downed state encourage dps and discourage healing and tanking build. It is very difficult for Anet to design hard content for all dps without forcing people to go holy trinity, this is why Anet prefer design open world content instead of dungeon because the only difficult mechanic they can think of is massive zerg coordination instead of individual player experence and skill level.

This was news to me Do you have any actual proof of your theory, because to my knowledge ANET just prefer zergier kind of content like Dry Top, The Silverwastes and all of WoT from what we’ve seen. “The whole zone working together for the greater good yada BS”.

You mean the whole development process of living world is not enough proof?

Proof of downed state in dungeons being one of the reasons ANET abandoned them? Nope, had nothing to do with that.

During the presentation of WoT they talked about how GW2 have the friendliest MMO community because whereever you are downed it’s a strong possibility that a random stranger comes to the rescue. So the rally mechanic is something they take pride in having.

NO, GW2 have a friendly community because PVE loot is shared, there are no competition. Downed state might be one of the factor but not as important.

The downed state is actually one of the things that makes this game fun.

Many a time I’ve survived by the skin of my teeth thanks to the downed state, I still die sometimes even with the down state.

Get rid of the downed state and that will make this game more boring.

If you’re going to go for the superior builds then you shouldn’t be surprised if you feel over powered. All my characters are not based on the superior builds and the game is fine. Some classes are better than others but that’s the same in any MMO.

@ the op

I’d also add that you appear to be someone that prefers competition, competition is why WoW’s community is so awful in general.

GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.

The looting system in GW2 is far superior as at least you all get some loot. Whereas in WoW you always get players complaining someone has ninjad their loot.

It makes players less selfish. I like it.

uhohhotdog.3598:

It makes players less selfish. I like it.

Downed state has nothing to do with it.

necro downstate DISAGREES

I’m not going to keep arguing around in circles with you, Garth.

I’ve said everything I need to say on this thread (often, more than once!) and I stand by it.

Happy Easter BTW, guys.

read OP but I havent read all responses.

I do like some ideas in this thread.

I don’t think removing downed state will help taking away meta it will only result to a new one, what one I do not know yet. But the reason about downed state negates the down side of Zerker is true IMO.

Combined with some ideas in this post with some of mine I have thought about.
Hard Mode dungeons:
Removing downed state and gives enemies more skills to evade and move around.

Some other “fixes”:
- Can’t ress by killing a target (But regen when OoC).
- Stats effects downstate more like, Healing power gives more healing, Vitality gives more starting HP when downed, Thougness, Precision, Ferocity, condition damage and Power is ofc pretty clear what they do.
- Enemies will avoid stacked players and AoE push/pull skills when there are 3 or more players in a stack to long. (I am no programmer so I dunno if it is possible)
- Make healing power better than protection buff wich require no stats.
- Remove Zerker and maby Assassin stats.

Yes, make passive defensive gameplay even stronger.

warbignime.4610:

Royal.2693:

Downed state is the most fun thing about GW2. Also, you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

I strongly disagree with you, I think tank-healer-dps is way more interesting and diverse than dps-dps-dps. Unreasonable hate on holy trinity is pointless, as it been tested many years to be the best way to design an MMO, lack of holy trinity simplified GW2’s dungeon . Yeah sure tanking and healing might not be fun, but is stacking and mashing buttons any better than holy trinity?

Not really, a tank-healer-dps is way less interesting and less diverse than what we have in Guild Wars 2. Hate on trinity is reasonable. Lack of trinity didn’t simplify GW2 dungeons, it made them better.

There are other threads around that proved that trinity is garbage gameplay and that in this game there is no “dps-dps-dps” but people are actually supporting and controling just fine.

Just because you haven’t played in an organised group in your life (or you lack the skill to do so, missing your dedicated healer maybe?) doesn’t make the game’s gameplay any worse.

Trinity is for lazy people who want to be carried by their gear. As for button mashing? Really? In Trinity games you don’t need to button mash, you make a long and complicated macro and just use it.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

- Remove Zerker and maby Assassin stats.

Don’t forget about sinister gear.

rotten.9753:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

- Remove Zerker and maby Assassin stats.

Don’t forget about sinister gear.

I’d say remove troll stats like Sentinel first

maddoctor.2738:

I’d say remove troll stats like Sentinel first

How is it troll stat set? I mean, tanking takes an enormous skill.

rotten.9753:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

- Remove Zerker and maby Assassin stats.

Don’t forget about sinister gear.

Maby

I am using Zerker on my ranger, Guardian and Mesmer I would not be happy by the removal of Zerker iether but it would rid the Zerker Meta but as I said in the beginning, there will only be a new meta stat.

Looking at the two videos you posted I can’t help to think that Mossman seems pretty weak. Becouse I switch between Cleric gear and Zerker depending on what I fight and what group I play with… Mossman I go with Zerker becouse he is so easy and I can’t remember him hitting hard enough to kill me even as Zerker.

I would like to se a warrior tank for example Legendary Grawl Shaman, Mai Trin, Clockheart, Mordrem Vinewrath Champions and more exactly like he tanks Mossman. Not every boss is a pushover and can be beaten without moving and only outheal the damage.

To be honest I would prefer all the bad stat combos to be removed:
PVT, sinister, nobads, zealots

This way if everyone was forces to run more glassy spec they may actually learn to play properly. Learn boss tells, when to use active defenses, trait correctly.

The OP states people dying in zerker at spider queen – which is due to certain active defenses not being used in zerker and groups being further punished who are learning by removing downed states. This is not helpful for new players learning encounters and just makes is harder. Until people understand what each profession should be doing as an organised team for a dungeon it is easy to make statements like remove dodge / downed state change this/that.

Why doesn’t everyone accept this is how the game is designed?
Don’t try to change it into another type of MMO – don’t moan about the groups who fail badly : try to learn from it. A lot of mechanics the OP mentions such as stacking is being used less and less for all encounters for high end groups who would complete content without having health dip <90% to ensure they get maximum benefit from runes they have equipped.

Squisher classes have a harder time than a face tanky war in full zerker – depending what class you are playing this just punishes the squisher ones further.

TPMN.1483:

To be honest I would prefer all the bad stat combos to be removed:
PVT, sinister, nobads, zealots

This way if everyone was forces to run more glassy spec they may actually learn to play properly. Learn boss tells, when to use active defenses, trait correctly.

The OP states people dying in zerker at spider queen – which is due to certain active defenses not being used in zerker and groups being further punished who are learning by removing downed states. This is not helpful for new players learning encounters and just makes is harder. Until people understand what each profession should be doing as an organised team for a dungeon it is easy to make statements like remove dodge / downed state change this/that.

Why doesn’t everyone accept this is how the game is designed?
Don’t try to change it into another type of MMO – don’t moan about the groups who fail badly : try to learn from it. A lot of mechanics the OP mentions such as stacking is being used less and less for all encounters for high end groups who would complete content without having health dip <90% to ensure they get maximum benefit from runes they have equipped.

Squisher classes have a harder time than a face tanky war in full zerker – depending what class you are playing this just punishes the squisher ones further.

I wouldn’t call Sinister and PVT bad stats. Sinister has uses for hybrid damage (although in pve is suffers from the usual condition caps) while Soldier is the best stat for non-crittable world bosses.

The OP was kind of wanting the effect of dying to be that of GW1, where – if you are dead, you are merely a spectator, unless someone had a res skill to spare, assuming all the Monks weren’t already dead as well.

You couldn’t zip to a nearby waypoint The choices were a res, watching, or leaving the instance for good.

I’m not sure about this, but it would definitely result in more careful gameplay approaches.

Nakatsu Hime.3520:

The OP was kind of wanting the effect of dying to be that of GW1, where – if you are dead, you are merely a spectator, unless someone had a res skill to spare, assuming all the Monks weren’t already dead as well.

You couldn’t zip to a nearby waypoint The choices were a res, watching, or leaving the instance for good.

I’m not sure about this, but it would definitely result in more careful gameplay approaches.

The thing is, those with experience in using Berserker stats will still use it and still be effective because they simply don’t get downed at all.

The downed state is an extra “buffer” or protection for players that are still learning an encounter, testing new builds and of course for those who get the occasional lag spike.

Removing that buffer would only affect newer players, those that are still learning their characters / abilities and have zero effect on those who are already good enough to survive anyway. It will make the process of learning much harder, and much slower, with no actual gain in the end.

The problem is not having a downed estate.

The problem is enemies ignoring it.

All normal-size mobile enemies should have finishing moves that you need to stop to keep your allies from being defeated.

And all normal-size mobile enemies should have chances to get downed instead directly dying. Their chance to get downed instead defeated and their starting defeated health pools would depend on enemy rank:

• Normal enemies: 1%, 40% pool.
• Veterans: 10%, 50% pool.
• Elites: 25%. 60% pool.
• Champions: 50% 70% pool.
• Legendaries: 100%. 80% health pool.

Enemies without downed attack animations would just look stunned and slowly recover health even when hit.

This would include the current toxic alliance toxic courtiers, who would stop going defeated 100% of the time, and instead change to the chance method.

Now, you go berserker against some enemies, stack as usual, someone goes down, the enemies use finishers faster than you can heal your ally because you try to revive your ally without interrupting the enemies, the ally gets finished.

I do see a point in your offer, though I don’t see a point in posting this offer here.
You do realize that this is a core feature of the game and it won’t be changed?
If you do realize that, why would you post this? Just curious, no offence.

TPMN.1483:

To be honest I would prefer all the bad stat combos to be removed:
PVT, sinister, nobads, zealots

This way if everyone was forces to run more glassy spec they may actually learn to play properly. Learn boss tells, when to use active defenses, trait correctly.

The OP states people dying in zerker at spider queen – which is due to certain active defenses not being used in zerker and groups being further punished who are learning by removing downed states. This is not helpful for new players learning encounters and just makes is harder. Until people understand what each profession should be doing as an organised team for a dungeon it is easy to make statements like remove dodge / downed state change this/that.

Why doesn’t everyone accept this is how the game is designed?
Don’t try to change it into another type of MMO – don’t moan about the groups who fail badly : try to learn from it. A lot of mechanics the OP mentions such as stacking is being used less and less for all encounters for high end groups who would complete content without having health dip <90% to ensure they get maximum benefit from runes they have equipped.

Squisher classes have a harder time than a face tanky war in full zerker – depending what class you are playing this just punishes the squisher ones further.

It’s not that people don’t accept how the game was designed (at least for some players). I accept how the game is played, I learn how to survive and aid teammates, I wear zerker gear (or sinister for my hybrids which was a pain to find since I had been taking a break when it was released) and kill super fast. It’s just that once you learn the encounter and how to handle foes in general (or more accurately, how to deal maximum burst damage to said foe) there isn’t much more for your casual player.

I find the super-max dps speed running route is more for the hardcore player. You can experiment with different build approaches but it ultimately comes down to doing damage or unorthodox support approaches that don’t mesh with the burst-dps approach of PvE. Doesn’t have to be as effective but it should be noticeable. The problem being, alternative type builds are designed to be balanced to be used by max-dps builds (because giving potent specialized support on a burst build that can destroy bosses quickly (although with the amount of burst + support we have, it basically creates the results I’d try to steer clear of).

But yeah, I’m not so much trying to change the game but I would try to appeal to players to have a more opened opinion of the game’s approach.

Leo – you post this all the time but have no concept of what support is given – I can assure you it is not all about max DPS. You are asking for a different game design again.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Mossman I go with Zerker becouse he is so easy and I can’t remember him hitting hard enough to kill me even as Zerker.

What fractal level and class are you running?

what traits are you running on that class?

TPMN.1483:

Leo – you post this all the time but have no concept of what support is given – I can assure you it is not all about max DPS. You are asking for a different game design again.

Lol, right. You act like I’m not listening. When someone says “You don’t understand” I can laugh because I do stop and learn. I know what support is given and how it affects the game. That’s why I think it’s too strong for the investment we put in. I don’t think everything is all about max DPS. What I’m asking for isn’t a change at all because the game won’t change, at least not by much (if at all if the players are always at each other’s throats when discussing stuff on the forums).

You (or maybe just people who tend to argue a lot on the forums) tend not to listen or ‘get’ what people post or simply dismiss their posts and label their opinion as lesser than yours.

MithranArkanere.8957:

The problem is not having a downed estate.

The problem is enemies ignoring it.

All normal-size mobile enemies should have finishing moves that you need to stop to keep your allies from being defeated.

And all normal-size mobile enemies should have chances to get downed instead directly dying. Their chance to get downed instead defeated and their starting defeated health pools would depend on enemy rank:

• Normal enemies: 1%, 40% pool.
• Veterans: 10%, 50% pool.
• Elites: 25%. 60% pool.
• Champions: 50% 70% pool.
• Legendaries: 100%. 80% health pool.

Enemies without downed attack animations would just look stunned and slowly recover health even when hit.

This would include the current toxic alliance toxic courtiers, who would stop going defeated 100% of the time, and instead change to the chance method.

Now, you go berserker against some enemies, stack as usual, someone goes down, the enemies use finishers faster than you can heal your ally because you try to revive your ally without interrupting the enemies, the ally gets finished.

enemies don’t need finishing moves.

if they focus a downed player, they kill him 90% of the time (strong enemies, of course)

Leo G.4501:

TPMN.1483:

Leo – you post this all the time but have no concept of what support is given – I can assure you it is not all about max DPS. You are asking for a different game design again.

Lol, right. You act like I’m not listening. When someone says “You don’t understand” I can laugh because I do stop and learn. I know what support is given and how it affects the game. That’s why I think it’s too strong for the investment we put in. I don’t think everything is all about max DPS. What I’m asking for isn’t a change at all because the game won’t change, at least not by much (if at all if the players are always at each other’s throats when discussing stuff on the forums).

You (or maybe just people who tend to argue a lot on the forums) tend not to listen or ‘get’ what people post or simply dismiss their posts and label their opinion as lesser than yours.

The whole point of active defences is to avoid damage.
The game design is such that each player is (for the most part) responsible for their own well being. If you die – usually its your own fault.

The design is such that the best players, with the most knowledge, the best reflexes, the best preparation for the content they tackle – complete it faster.
By completing it faster they can complete more in the same given time span.
Completing more content means more loot.
Thus better players get more loot. <— this should not change.

Demanding that active defences be tied to vitality/toughness would force good players to have to take those stats ( because an active defence that has %chance to work is not reliable, and if its not reliable, one has to dodge anyway – so why bother taking it? may as well take more dps focused utils). I’m sure most of us are aware that trying to run full glass cannon with nothing but dodges would be extremely difficult.

Forcing all players into defensive gear then means there is little or no time advantage to being able to use active defences. I’m sure we’re all aware aggressive gear = higher dps = faster kill times.
So how do you plan on rewarding the better players for being better if they cannot complete something faster?

1 player in downstate hurling this much damage to a target = really really stupid!

Nothing more to add!!

Vieux P.1238:

1 player in downstate hurling this much damage to a target = really really stupid!

Nothing more to add!!

I’m not sure what this means. Are you saying downed players don’t do enough damage or that they do too much. If “too much,” you’ve obviously not played an engineer.

maddoctor.2738:

warbignime.4610:

Royal.2693:

Downed state is the most fun thing about GW2. Also, you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

I strongly disagree with you, I think tank-healer-dps is way more interesting and diverse than dps-dps-dps. Unreasonable hate on holy trinity is pointless, as it been tested many years to be the best way to design an MMO, lack of holy trinity simplified GW2’s dungeon . Yeah sure tanking and healing might not be fun, but is stacking and mashing buttons any better than holy trinity?

Not really, a tank-healer-dps is way less interesting and less diverse than what we have in Guild Wars 2. Hate on trinity is reasonable. Lack of trinity didn’t simplify GW2 dungeons, it made them better.

There are other threads around that proved that trinity is garbage gameplay and that in this game there is no “dps-dps-dps” but people are actually supporting and controling just fine.

Just because you haven’t played in an organised group in your life (or you lack the skill to do so, missing your dedicated healer maybe?) doesn’t make the game’s gameplay any worse.

Trinity is for lazy people who want to be carried by their gear. As for button mashing? Really? In Trinity games you don’t need to button mash, you make a long and complicated macro and just use it.

Did you just said lack of trinity made GW2 dungeon better? I mean just look at current state of GW2 dungeon, they are not difficult and interesting encounter, they are just gate way of farming gold, it’s a fail. Also why are you mentioning macro? it’s so offtopic . Weather you like it or not, trinity would make dungeon better as it had been examined by countless mmo. You only hate trinity because you are playing GW2 and you are used to mindlessly mashing buttons in dungeon , trinity requires way more coordination and tactics than all dps dungeon of GW2, that is just fact. And please don’t you dare tell me dungeon in GW2 requires high skill level and deep tactics, cause that is just not the truth.

warbignime.4610:

maddoctor.2738:

warbignime.4610:

Royal.2693:

Downed state is the most fun thing about GW2. Also, you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

I strongly disagree with you, I think tank-healer-dps is way more interesting and diverse than dps-dps-dps. Unreasonable hate on holy trinity is pointless, as it been tested many years to be the best way to design an MMO, lack of holy trinity simplified GW2’s dungeon . Yeah sure tanking and healing might not be fun, but is stacking and mashing buttons any better than holy trinity?

Not really, a tank-healer-dps is way less interesting and less diverse than what we have in Guild Wars 2. Hate on trinity is reasonable. Lack of trinity didn’t simplify GW2 dungeons, it made them better.

There are other threads around that proved that trinity is garbage gameplay and that in this game there is no “dps-dps-dps” but people are actually supporting and controling just fine.

Just because you haven’t played in an organised group in your life (or you lack the skill to do so, missing your dedicated healer maybe?) doesn’t make the game’s gameplay any worse.

Trinity is for lazy people who want to be carried by their gear. As for button mashing? Really? In Trinity games you don’t need to button mash, you make a long and complicated macro and just use it.

Did you just said lack of trinity made GW2 dungeon better? I mean just look at current state of GW2 dungeon, they are not difficult and interesting encounter, they are just gate way of farming gold, it’s a fail. Also why are you mentioning macro? it’s so offtopic . Weather you like it or not, trinity would make dungeon better as it had been examined by countless mmo. You only hate trinity because you are playing GW2 and you are used to mindlessly mashing buttons in dungeon , trinity requires way more coordination and tactics than all dps dungeon of GW2, that is just fact. And please don’t you dare tell me dungeon in GW2 requires high skill level and deep tactics, cause that is just not the truth.

skill and tactics required:
to complete? no.
To complete fast? yes.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Demanding that active defences be tied to vitality/toughness would force good players to have to take those stats ( because an active defence that has %chance to work is not reliable, and if its not reliable, one has to dodge anyway – so why bother taking it? may as well take more dps focused utils). I’m sure most of us are aware that trying to run full glass cannon with nothing but dodges would be extremely difficult.

Forcing all players into defensive gear then means there is little or no time advantage to being able to use active defences. I’m sure we’re all aware aggressive gear = higher dps = faster kill times.
So how do you plan on rewarding the better players for being better if they cannot complete something faster?

Well for one, I’m not demanding anything. Are people demanding stuff?

For two, I haven’t suggested active defense be tied to certain stats in this thread (the only thing I suggested were conditions being tied to conditions stats and downed state being a higher reflection of your stats).

Thirdly, it wouldn’t force good players to do anything. If you could survive great currently with zerker gear, you’ll likely have to play carefully but still do the same thing. If you do have to swap gear, perhaps you weren’t as good a player as you thought you were.

But the crux I see is, good players complain they want more content. They get it, blow through it super fast then complain they want more. You can’t just make content harder and harder and they still have to make other stuff for the game. The loop is, good players complete content faster and faster yet they want more content. Do they ever stop to think maybe they complete content too quickly and easily? Or that that is why rewards are throttled, because content can be flown through too quickly? Or that, perhaps their abundant tools are too numerous and potent to make the content reliably challenging?

I’m simply pointing to the variables. Something could change to alter a variable favorably, if you just sit and think about it for a second.

warbignime.4610:

And please don’t you dare tell me dungeon in GW2 requires high skill level and deep tactics, cause that is just not the truth.

It depends how you run said dungeons. If you want to add most paths in 4 hours then yes you need skill level and tactics, if you want to take 20 hours to do them slowly then maybe not.

It’s not like in Trinity games you need high skill level or deep tactics either, or are you comparing the end game raids of said games (those that are not being run by the majority of the population) with GW2 dungeons? Why not compare dungeons with dungeons then? Trinity dungeons, once you run them a few times they are equally faceroll and easy mode, or easy mode raids that are for casuals.

Don’t talk like those require any kind of super high skill level or deep tactics to finish.

I read all of that, and agree partially.
Personally, I wouldn’t care if they removed downed state, as long as they gave us some way to use our finishers on a dead opponent or (dying) boss/toxic warrior, and renamed it to “Boast” instead of “Finisher”.

warbignime.4610:

maddoctor.2738:

warbignime.4610:

Royal.2693:

Downed state is the most fun thing about GW2. Also, you can really play anything in the dungeons, it doesn’t have to be a zerker, but you should still provide decent amount of damage.

Of course zerkers are most effective, something always has to be. It’s much better that they make us bring full dps build instead of having to play frustrating tank builds-

I strongly disagree with you, I think tank-healer-dps is way more interesting and diverse than dps-dps-dps. Unreasonable hate on holy trinity is pointless, as it been tested many years to be the best way to design an MMO, lack of holy trinity simplified GW2’s dungeon . Yeah sure tanking and healing might not be fun, but is stacking and mashing buttons any better than holy trinity?

Not really, a tank-healer-dps is way less interesting and less diverse than what we have in Guild Wars 2. Hate on trinity is reasonable. Lack of trinity didn’t simplify GW2 dungeons, it made them better.

There are other threads around that proved that trinity is garbage gameplay and that in this game there is no “dps-dps-dps” but people are actually supporting and controling just fine.

Just because you haven’t played in an organised group in your life (or you lack the skill to do so, missing your dedicated healer maybe?) doesn’t make the game’s gameplay any worse.

Trinity is for lazy people who want to be carried by their gear. As for button mashing? Really? In Trinity games you don’t need to button mash, you make a long and complicated macro and just use it.

Did you just said lack of trinity made GW2 dungeon better? I mean just look at current state of GW2 dungeon, they are not difficult and interesting encounter, they are just gate way of farming gold, it’s a fail. Also why are you mentioning macro? it’s so offtopic . Weather you like it or not, trinity would make dungeon better as it had been examined by countless mmo. You only hate trinity because you are playing GW2 and you are used to mindlessly mashing buttons in dungeon , trinity requires way more coordination and tactics than all dps dungeon of GW2, that is just fact. And please don’t you dare tell me dungeon in GW2 requires high skill level and deep tactics, cause that is just not the truth.

none of what you say here is true. I have recently played a pretty well crafted trinity game, and i can tell you the trinity itself does nothing for making dungeons more interesting, or difficult.
Trinity makes dungeons easier, and more obvious in what is expected. The strength of the trinity, is that everyone knows exactly what they are supposed to do/who is not.

Now that game did in fact have some better designed fights, and interesting encounters, but none of that had to do with the trinity. It had to do with non trinity designs,
like enemy placements
bosses you have to react to
bosses that move and alter player tactics
environmental effects/objects.

the problems with the game design have nothing to do with trinity, and nothing to do with downed state. They have to do with the fact that no new instanced content has existed for years, and most of the encounters/instances are not designed to require even half the depth of the combat system

e