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Guild Leader of Alpha Sgc [ASGC]
The downed state - Hurting the game?
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.
You should have to be skilled to play a zerker, players should be punished for running a glassy spec. If you aren’t a good player, then you shouldn’t be able to run a super glassy spec, it’s only logical.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.
You should have to be skilled to play a zerker, players should be punished for running a glassy spec. If you aren’t a good player, then you shouldn’t be able to run a super glassy spec, it’s only logical.
yeah, and they already get punished now. If you want the game to be more challenging/difficult/have better designed fights, thats fine, but it has nothing to do with the downed state.
taking away mechanics doesnt really increase depth, just makes you have less possible ways to solve a problem.
To be clear, the game would not be much harder without a downstate, it would just make the game less exciting. Trying to get to a dying person before they get killed, dodging an attack aimed at you while reviving, distracting or CCing a boss so a team mate has the opportunity to revive, or focusing an enemy to rally. This is interesting play, and choices to be made while fighting. Not having it adds nothing at all really.
Id rather have better designed, harder fights, or even have a mode where everyone wiping = a loss if the goal was more difficult content.
Also like i said, rally has very little to do with beserker, berserkers dont usually go down to trash monsters anyway, and even when they do, its rarely uncertain that enough people will survive and ressurect people.
Where downed state really matters is usually the more difficult fights, and in those fights people have to make real choices on how to recover and fight on, where the wrong choices can lead to a wipe.
skilled zerkers can also avoid going down anyhow, so really you wouldnt be changing anything, but crippling the average players greatly.
You should have to be skilled to play a zerker, players should be punished for running a glassy spec. If you aren’t a good player, then you shouldn’t be able to run a super glassy spec, it’s only logical.
You seem to think that players wearing survival gear get a free pass. However, a lot of them get downed and defeated, too. So where does that leave Joe Below Average, who already dies a lot with survival gear? And what if, instead of being Below Average, he’s Joe Average?
But i didnt have to go that far: i’ve run cof p1 and 2 countless times and i still die with my ele if the wind blows in the wrong direction. yesterday, without going too far, in the end boss of p2, i was feared and ran through 2 areas, getting downed in the second. Nothing i could do. Why? because i was running with a berserker build.
Right, but you should’ve been defeated, not downed. Perhaps in this circumstance it didn’t matter either way, but in another scenario, perhaps once again you went down, because you were running a glassy spec and didn’t time your dodge etc correctly, but this time you are close to your team, and they just come over and res you and you’re back in the game, no harm done. <— This is a big issue, in my eyes at least.
GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.
You’re right, perhaps the majority PvE content is just too casual for me. I don’t wish it to be though.
read OP but I havent read all responses.
I do like some ideas in this thread.
I don’t think removing downed state will help taking away meta it will only result to a new one, what one I do not know yet. But the reason about downed state negates the down side of Zerker is true IMO.
Combined with some ideas in this post with some of mine I have thought about.
Hard Mode dungeons:
Removing downed state and gives enemies more skills to evade and move around.Some other “fixes”:
- Can’t ress by killing a target (But regen when OoC).
- Stats effects downstate more like, Healing power gives more healing, Vitality gives more starting HP when downed, Thougness, Precision, Ferocity, condition damage and Power is ofc pretty clear what they do.
- Enemies will avoid stacked players and AoE push/pull skills when there are 3 or more players in a stack to long. (I am no programmer so I dunno if it is possible)
- Make healing power better than protection buff wich require no stats.
- Remove Zerker and maby Assassin stats.
Some good ideas. Great post. (And as a programmer, yes that is possible – I don’t know how messy their code is nearly 3 years on though, so maybe it could be difficult for them to implement).
I do see a point in your offer, though I don’t see a point in posting this offer here.
You do realize that this is a core feature of the game and it won’t be changed?
If you do realize that, why would you post this? Just curious, no offence.
Where would you have me post this suggestion? This thread is merely a means to promote a discussion, I’m not holding a knife to Colin’s throat demanding it be implemented or anything :P
I’ve seen a lot of great responses here, thanks everyone for your input. There have been some slightly… hostile responses, but on the whole it has been mostly constructive.
From what I’ve read, there are a few people who don’t seem to understand the risk vs reward imbalance with running glassy specs due to never actually dying, however I have been shown by the responses here that this may only apply to good players, and that the risk is already high enough for bad players (assuming they aren’t being carried by good players of course). This has lead me to agree with a few people here, in that a ‘hard mode’ for dungeons could go a very long way.
A hard mode could remove the downed state (as well as add/remove many other mechanics – as well as increased rewards of course), which could provide more skilled players with a higher risk for running glassy builds, while not affecting those newer/worse players, as they could just do the normal mode.
The responses here have pointed out countless other issues that exist in PvE content, some of which I already knew of, but others I had not heard of before.
Once again, great responses on the whole.
Regards,
Josh.
GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.
You’re right, perhaps the majority PvE content is just too casual for me. I don’t wish it to be though.
You don’t wish it to be?
You didn’t come back from WoW did you and now you’re trying to change the game to suit yourself ?
A lot of us like the downed state, why should the game change so that you get your way ?
Without the downed state this game would become boring for a lot of us.
The game has been designed this way, so stop trying to get it designed the way you want it.
Casual is good as it tends to keep the elitists at bay.
(edited by Azala Yar.7693)
GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.
You’re right, perhaps the majority PvE content is just too casual for me. I don’t wish it to be though.
You don’t wish it to be?
You didn’t come back from WoW did you and now you’re trying to change the game to suit yourself ?
A lot of us like the downed state, why should the game change so that you get your way ?
Without the downed state this game would become boring for a lot of us.
The game has been designed this way, so stop trying to get it designed the way you want it.
Casual is good as it tends to keep the elitists at bay.
Let’s face it, downed state doesn’t matter that much, people don’t buy or stay in the game because of " omg GW2 got this downed state system which when you think about it in depth does pretty much nothing but making content more forgiving and easier" they stay because of GW2’s other aspect, i’m sure 99% of people would not give a kitten if downed state is removed from the game.
No, balanced casual and hardcore is the key of making a successful game, there is nothing wrong with elitist, there is nothing wrong with playing the game at the most optimal and efficient way .
Some must fight so that all may be free.
Let’s face it, downed state doesn’t matter that much, people don’t buy or stay in the game because of " omg GW2 got this downed state system which when you think about it in depth does pretty much nothing but making content more forgiving and easier" they stay because of GW2’s other aspect, i’m sure 99% of people would not give a kitten if downed state is removed from the game.
No, balanced casual and hardcore is the key of making a successful game, there is nothing wrong with elitist, there is nothing wrong with playing the game at the most optimal and efficient way .
Downed state is one of the good things about this game, it also helps keep it away from being just another WoW clone. Too many of those already.
I played quite a few MMOs over the years including WoW and I used to level characters in an efficient way. That doesn’t help the community much though, because as I was being efficient I never had much time to actually get too involved in the community. That was a different story in some other MMOs though.
Elitists don’t do anything for a community either except to divide it.
If you want a game more like WoW, you will end up with a community not much different to WoW’s and that would be a shame for this game.
Let’s face it, downed state doesn’t matter that much, people don’t buy or stay in the game because of " omg GW2 got this downed state system which when you think about it in depth does pretty much nothing but making content more forgiving and easier" they stay because of GW2’s other aspect, i’m sure 99% of people would not give a kitten if downed state is removed from the game.
No, balanced casual and hardcore is the key of making a successful game, there is nothing wrong with elitist, there is nothing wrong with playing the game at the most optimal and efficient way .Downed state is one of the good things about this game, it also helps keep it away from being just another WoW clone. Too many of those already.
I played quite a few MMOs over the years including WoW and I used to level characters in an efficient way. That doesn’t help the community much though, because as I was being efficient I never had much time to actually get too involved in the community. That was a different story in some other MMOs though.
Elitists don’t do anything for a community either except to divide it.
If you want a game more like WoW, you will end up with a community not much different to WoW’s and that would be a shame for this game.
Downed state is not what set GW2 apart from WOW, if you are saying it is then you clearly didn’t play enough of both games to the point of understanding. There are a lot of mechanics and feature set GW2 apart from WoW, downed state is a very minor one.
Some must fight so that all may be free.
GW2 has a lot of the same types of people, but with GW2 the game has been designed less on being individually competitive and focusing more on players working together in a more casual way. This is something that makes GW2 a lot better.
You’re right, perhaps the majority PvE content is just too casual for me. I don’t wish it to be though.
You don’t wish it to be?
You didn’t come back from WoW did you and now you’re trying to change the game to suit yourself ?
A lot of us like the downed state, why should the game change so that you get your way ?
Without the downed state this game would become boring for a lot of us.
The game has been designed this way, so stop trying to get it designed the way you want it.
Casual is good as it tends to keep the elitists at bay.
This is the kind of hostility I had hoped not to see. Let the record show that I am not a WoW player, nor have I ever been. I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a casual game to keep the general population happy/ make it easier for newcomers, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t/couldn’t be a hardcore option.
Downed state is not what set GW2 apart from WOW, if you are saying it is then you clearly didn’t play enough of both games to the point of understanding. There are a lot of mechanics and feature set GW2 apart from WoW, downed state is a very minor one.
I didn’t say it’s the only thing.
No, didn’t play WoW much, only had over 300 characters, most deleted now although I’ve still got 9x 100’s and a 92 plus a few others.
Not had so many here though, only got 7x 80’s a 64 a 53 and a 32. So yeah I’m kind of new to GW2.
Doesn’t bode well for a community when part of it starts to want better rewards if they do a dungeon on hard mode. Like I said elitists will divide a community, but they will only do it if you give them the means to do so (game mechanics). WoW did give them the means and the community is probably one of the worst in an MMO.
Downed state is not what set GW2 apart from WOW, if you are saying it is then you clearly didn’t play enough of both games to the point of understanding. There are a lot of mechanics and feature set GW2 apart from WoW, downed state is a very minor one.
I didn’t say it’s the only thing.
No, didn’t play WoW much, only had over 300 characters, most deleted now although I’ve still got 9x 100’s and a 92 plus a few others.
Not had so many here though, only got 7x 80’s a 64 a 53 and a 32. So yeah I’m kind of new to GW2.
Doesn’t bode well for a community when part of it starts to want better rewards if they do a dungeon on hard mode. Like I said elitists will divide a community, but they will only do it if you give them the means to do so (game mechanics). WoW did give them the means and the community is probably one of the worst in an MMO.
There is nothing wrong with wanting better reward from more difficult encounters, it’s a core element of RPG and GW2 did not do well on it, but that is another topic which I can rant a few thousand words on. Like I said there is nothing wrong with elitist, GW2 should appeal to both casual and hardcore as they promised before the game even launch. Anet want to appeal to hardcore players , that’s why they promise us difficult and challenging content in HoT which I wish are going to be organized small- medium size group content instead of massive zerg fights. What you mean it would divide community? What’s wrong with dividing the community, because pvp divide the community too, then should Anet remove pvp from the game since it divide community, your point is invalid.
Some must fight so that all may be free.
There is nothing wrong with wanting better reward from more difficult encounters, it’s a core element of RPG and GW2 did not do well on it, but that is another topic which I can rant a few thousand words on. Like I said there is nothing wrong with elitist, GW2 should appeal to both casual and hardcore as they promised before the game even launch. Anet want to appeal to hardcore players , that’s why they promise us difficult and challenging content in HoT which I wish are going to be organized small- medium size group content instead of massive zerg fights. What you mean it would divide community? What’s wrong with dividing the community, because pvp divide the community too, then should Anet remove pvp from the game since it divide community, your point is invalid.
That’s where the division starts casual and hardcore, you’ve already divided them into 2 groups. Rather than one community which it should be, you get kind of a class system which breeds the elitism.
The problem is elitists tend to just think of what will they get out of it, rather than being concerned with the community as a whole.
Like I said if this game goes down the same road as WoW the community will end up just as bad given enough time.
But what ever happens the decision is ultimately ANet’s let hope they think it through first.
There is nothing wrong with wanting better reward from more difficult encounters, it’s a core element of RPG and GW2 did not do well on it, but that is another topic which I can rant a few thousand words on. Like I said there is nothing wrong with elitist, GW2 should appeal to both casual and hardcore as they promised before the game even launch. Anet want to appeal to hardcore players , that’s why they promise us difficult and challenging content in HoT which I wish are going to be organized small- medium size group content instead of massive zerg fights. What you mean it would divide community? What’s wrong with dividing the community, because pvp divide the community too, then should Anet remove pvp from the game since it divide community, your point is invalid.
That’s where the division starts casual and hardcore, you’ve already divided them into 2 groups. Rather than one community which it should be, you get kind of a class system which breeds the elitism.
The problem is elitists tend to just think of what will they get out of it, rather than being concerned with the community as a whole.
Like I said if this game goes down the same road as WoW the community will end up just as bad given enough time.
But what ever happens the decision is ultimately ANet’s let hope they think it through first.
What’s wrong with elitist think what they get out of it? People play video games for their enjoyment , there is nothing wrong with wanting better reward because we are playing an RPG. Also WoW’s community is terrible not because of the reward or encounters, it’s because WoW has a terrible looting system and the biggest player base. Like I said, you don’t understand WoW enough.
Some must fight so that all may be free.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with having a casual game to keep the general population happy/ make it easier for newcomers, but that doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t/couldn’t be a hardcore option.
It may be then, that you will have to adjust your expectations. ANet has repeatedly stated they do not want to split the player base. I can only presume that the “hardcore/casual” split is one of the splits they do not want to encourage. More importantly, ANet has backed up their statements with game design.
That said, much of the content that has been introduced since they turned away from dungeons has been objectively harder than the launch offerings. This started with revised Risen and Krait, moved on to the LS S1 armies (Molten Alliance, Aetherblades and Toxic), and S2’s contribution, the Mordrem. I expect that Anet will deliver on their promise that HoT content will be the most challenging yet. I also fully expect a spate of complaints once HoT releases from players saying that it’s “too hard.” Meanwhile, other players will master the new content, and say, “It’s too easy.”
Unfortunately, in a game where defense often consists of, “Use counter and take no damage”, there will always be a risk that content will not be perceived as challenging enough. Meanwhile, in games where counters are all passive (like the RNG blocks and evades in some games), and/or are based on passive defenses from armor, there is the illusion that the content is challenging, because players are taking damage (in some cases, a lot of damage). However, whether content is really challenging hangs on whether one can lose, and in many RPG/MMO games, the numbers are pretty forgiving.
Also like i said, rally has very little to do with beserker, berserkers dont usually go down to trash monsters anyway, and even when they do, its rarely uncertain that enough people will survive and ressurect people.
Where downed state really matters is usually the more difficult fights, and in those fights people have to make real choices on how to recover and fight on, where the wrong choices can lead to a wipe.
Most bosses don’t have anything around to allow rallying anyway.
The only ones I can think of where rallying is possible are the Subject Alpha fights in CoE.
What’s wrong with elitist think what they get out of it? People play video games for their enjoyment , there is nothing wrong with wanting better reward because we are playing an RPG. Also WoW’s community is terrible not because of the reward or encounters, it’s because WoW has a terrible looting system and the biggest player base. Like I said, you don’t understand WoW enough.
Started playing WoW at the beginning of 2005 had a few minor breaks from it.
If you put all my game time together that was spent on playing WoW, the game time (actual time playing) would be at about 4 years (when you add all the time spent playing together without breaks).
So I’m sure as you claim I know nothing about WoW’s community or even the development of the game and community.
It’s WoW’s game design mixed with elitists (encouraged by game design) that leads to a lot of the WoW community’s anti-social behaviour.
GW2’s game design is actually not that bad as the only anti-social behaviour I see on a regular basis is aggro dragging.
(edited by Azala Yar.7693)
What’s wrong with elitist think what they get out of it? People play video games for their enjoyment , there is nothing wrong with wanting better reward because we are playing an RPG. Also WoW’s community is terrible not because of the reward or encounters, it’s because WoW has a terrible looting system and the biggest player base. Like I said, you don’t understand WoW enough.
Started playing WoW at the beginning of 2005 had a few minor breaks from it.
If you put all my game time together that was spent on playing WoW, the game time (actual time playing) would be at about 4 years (when you add all the time spent playing together without breaks).So I’m sure as you claim I know nothing about WoW’s community or even its development of the game or its community.
It’s WoW’s game design mixed with elitists (encouraged by game design) that leads to a lot of the WoW community’s anti-social behaviour.
GW2’s game design is actually not that bad as the only anti-social behaviour I see on a regular basis is aggro dragging.
based on your statement , I can tell you do not understand WoW. Also play a game a lot=/= you understand it. Elitist is a very minor factor of WoW’s anti social community, you are foolish to think it is, Blizzard done a lot of things that screw up the community such as flying mounts open world player killing, it is not because of elitist.
Some must fight so that all may be free.
What’s wrong with elitist think what they get out of it? People play video games for their enjoyment , there is nothing wrong with wanting better reward because we are playing an RPG. Also WoW’s community is terrible not because of the reward or encounters, it’s because WoW has a terrible looting system and the biggest player base. Like I said, you don’t understand WoW enough.
Started playing WoW at the beginning of 2005 had a few minor breaks from it.
If you put all my game time together that was spent on playing WoW, the game time (actual time playing) would be at about 4 years (when you add all the time spent playing together without breaks).So I’m sure as you claim I know nothing about WoW’s community or even its development of the game or its community.
It’s WoW’s game design mixed with elitists (encouraged by game design) that leads to a lot of the WoW community’s anti-social behaviour.
GW2’s game design is actually not that bad as the only anti-social behaviour I see on a regular basis is aggro dragging.
based on your statement , I can tell you do not understand WoW. Also play a game a lot=/= you understand it. Elitist is a very minor factor of WoW’s anti social community, you are foolish to think it is, Blizzard done a lot of things that screw up the community such as flying mounts open world player killing, it is not because of elitist.
I can tell it’s pointless talking to you as you just don’t grasp what I’m saying.
Flying mounts has nothing to do with it neither does world PvP.
As people have said already, damage and rez mechanics. All other mmos you cannot get killed in 1 second by an enemy player of the same level and stats. It would require all damage to be reworked.
What’s wrong with elitist think what they get out of it? People play video games for their enjoyment , there is nothing wrong with wanting better reward because we are playing an RPG. Also WoW’s community is terrible not because of the reward or encounters, it’s because WoW has a terrible looting system and the biggest player base. Like I said, you don’t understand WoW enough.
Started playing WoW at the beginning of 2005 had a few minor breaks from it.
If you put all my game time together that was spent on playing WoW, the game time (actual time playing) would be at about 4 years (when you add all the time spent playing together without breaks).So I’m sure as you claim I know nothing about WoW’s community or even its development of the game or its community.
It’s WoW’s game design mixed with elitists (encouraged by game design) that leads to a lot of the WoW community’s anti-social behaviour.
GW2’s game design is actually not that bad as the only anti-social behaviour I see on a regular basis is aggro dragging.
based on your statement , I can tell you do not understand WoW. Also play a game a lot=/= you understand it. Elitist is a very minor factor of WoW’s anti social community, you are foolish to think it is, Blizzard done a lot of things that screw up the community such as flying mounts open world player killing, it is not because of elitist.
I can tell it’s pointless talking to you as you just don’t grasp what I’m saying.
Flying mounts has nothing to do with it neither does world PvP.
LOL, flying mounts and open world PvP does not affect community? I am laughing so hard , man you know nothing about how MMO community works. Flying mounts cause players to fly on different attitude which reduce the amount of player you see and cause communication much more difficult. Open world PvP caused nothing but hatred between Alliance and Horde , I remember the first time I play WoW, a zerg of high level Alliance just killed all the low level quest NPCs over and over. Mechanic like this caused terrible community of WoW , say it’s caused by elitist is pretty Mich pure BS.
Some must fight so that all may be free.
As people have said already, damage and rez mechanics. All other mmos you cannot get killed in 1 second by an enemy player of the same level and stats. It would require all damage to be reworked.
Yes, after reading some of the replies here, it seems that there are some deep-rooted problems with the damage mechanics etc in this game, which lead to a very unbalanced stat system in PvE. For example, I have never come across a situation where there is a need for healing, or speccing into healing even making sense at all <— just kill it quicker with zerker = less damage taken anyway. (Note that I still run a cleric ele sometimes as I enjoy healing, even though people rage at me for it).
For example, I have never come across a situation where there is a need for healing, or speccing into healing even making sense at all <— just kill it quicker with zerker = less damage taken anyway. (Note that I still run a cleric ele sometimes as I enjoy healing, even though people rage at me for it).
That’s exactly why I often have to solo bosses, because people wanted to kill them as fast as possible but couldn’t pull it off.
Healing power makes sense in pvp where your objective can be about defending a point. In pve you are an attacker.
Healing power makes sense in pvp where your objective can be about defending a point. In pve you are an attacker.
Yeah the diversity in sPvP and even WvW is far better than in PvE. I love playing a healer, or a tank, or a DPS in PvE, but unfortunately there isn’t any point in playing anything other than DPS in gw2. There are some ‘support’ roles that you can fill of course (boon sharing on a guard etc), but it never feels like a solid role, just a secondary thing to DPS (as a side note it has been mentioned that a good idea would be to have to spec into boons/condis more with gear than you currently can, to achieve better boonscondis – e.g. without spec protection is only -10% inc damage etc, and blind is only effective 20% of the time etc).
I suppose not having solid roles is what they were going for in the beginning anyway, but if that is truly what they wanted (dps, support, control I believe it was), then they’ve made a huge mess of the stats system in that there is almost no point in running most stat sets for PvE.
Healing power makes sense in pvp where your objective can be about defending a point. In pve you are an attacker.
Yeah the diversity in sPvP and even WvW is far better than in PvE. I love playing a healer, or a tank, or a DPS in PvE, but unfortunately there isn’t any point in playing anything other than DPS in gw2. There are some ‘support’ roles that you can fill of course (boon sharing on a guard etc), but it never feels like a solid role, just a secondary thing to DPS (as a side note it has been mentioned that a good idea would be to have to spec into boons/condis more with gear than you currently can, to achieve better boonscondis – e.g. without spec protection is only -10% inc damage etc, and blind is only effective 20% of the time etc).
I suppose not having solid roles is what they were going for in the beginning anyway, but if that is truly what they wanted (dps, support, control I believe it was), then they’ve made a huge mess of the stats system in that there is almost no point in running most stat sets for PvE.
There is no tank and healer in GW2 by design and will never be. Damage Support and Control are the roles in this game and most professions fill them all well. You can’t survive without good Support, all “meta” groups are created to apply as much Support as possible.
Control is important in some fights too, while the coming Breakbar change will make Control even better.
Don’t try to make the game what it is not, and will never be. Tanks and Healers have no place here by design
Don’t try to make the game what it is not, and will never be. Tanks and Healers have no place here by design
It seems like bad design that healing power and toughness/vitality are stats, yet there is no place for tanks or healers. What is the point in having these stats (especially healing power), if healing has no place?
Yeah the diversity in sPvP and even WvW is far better than in PvE. I love playing a healer, or a tank, or a DPS in PvE, but unfortunately there isn’t any point in playing anything other than DPS in gw2. There are some ‘support’ roles that you can fill of course (boon sharing on a guard etc), but it never feels like a solid role, just a secondary thing to DPS (as a side note it has been mentioned that a good idea would be to have to spec into boons/condis more with gear than you currently can, to achieve better boonscondis – e.g. without spec protection is only -10% inc damage etc, and blind is only effective 20% of the time etc).
It’s quite amusing that you say that because in pvp people constantly whine about celestial meta and in wvw they whine about gwen meta. It’s typical grass greener on the other side situation.
It seems like bad design that healing power and toughness/vitality are stats, yet there is no place for tanks or healers. What is the point in having these stats (especially healing power), if healing has no place?
It seems to you like that because you still attached to typical rpg system. It’s an rpg with action combat system.
Don’t try to make the game what it is not, and will never be. Tanks and Healers have no place here by design
It seems like bad design that healing power and toughness/vitality are stats, yet there is no place for tanks or healers. What is the point in having these stats (especially healing power), if healing has no place?
Healing Power is a complimentary stat for Support builds, you heal for more when you have more Healing Power but it doesn’t make you a “Healer” at all. If you take the time to do a bit of research you can find videos of people using good amounts of toughness/vitality/healing power to face tank some of the hardest bosses in the game while soloing. (like solo Lupicus without dodging)
There is no problem with the stats, they work as expected. What doesn’t allow a traditional Tank is the absence of threat management, and what doesn’t allow a traditional Healer is the lack of ally targeting, If that Warrior build that can solo facetank Lupicus was able to transfer that healing to his allies by targeting them, he would be an actual Healer.
But the game was created without ally targeting in mind, making buffs / heals personal or area of effect skills, I doubt they can / will change that, it’s a fundamental design aspect of the game.
(edited by maddoctor.2738)
It seems like bad design that healing power and toughness/vitality are stats, yet there is no place for tanks or healers. What is the point in having these stats (especially healing power), if healing has no place?
It seems to you like that because you still attached to typical rpg system. It’s an rpg with action combat system.
Actually most RPGs don’t have dedicated tanks and healers, that’s a pure MMORPG thing, used to “force” people to play together. Although in more recent years RPG developers are “trying” to add more trinity systems to RPGs, which is something I hate.
Get your trinity away of my RPGs you lazy devs!
And please don’t you dare tell me dungeon in GW2 requires high skill level and deep tactics, cause that is just not the truth.
It’s not like in Trinity games you need high skill level or deep tactics either, or are you comparing the end game raids of said games (those that are not being run by the majority of the population) with GW2 dungeons? Why not compare dungeons with dungeons then? Trinity dungeons, once you run them a few times they are equally faceroll and easy mode, or easy mode raids that are for casuals.
Don’t talk like those require any kind of super high skill level or deep tactics to finish.
I think the problem is more that the entertainment value is entirely missing in GW2’s dungeons.
No, dungeons in other games aren’t, necessarily, hard; especially once they’re outgeared (but that, of course, is a separate issue).
However, I have literally never experienced dungeons, in other games, which are anywhere near so boring to complete as the ones in this game.
Occasionally, you will get a maverick group which allows you to do them in a freeform (i.e. non skipping, stacking and meleeing) way and then they can be really good.
Possibly better than other games’ dungeons…
However, the way most groups want you to do them, due to the design of the game, is almost unbelievably dull and monotonous.
Boring and monotonous in a way a trinity style dungeon, where you can generally stand where you like and have quite a lot of flexibility in your approach, just never is.
…and I don’t even mean that they’re boring, once you have done them a lot, which would be understandable – I mean they’re even boring the first time!
The trinity/non trinity thing isn’t necessarily the deciding factor, though.
I still think it would be possible to have a non trinity style approach and rid the game of the mechanics which encourage boring gameplay.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Actually most RPGs don’t have dedicated tanks and healers, that’s a pure MMORPG thing, used to “force” people to play together. Although in more recent years RPG developers are “trying” to add more trinity systems to RPGs, which is something I hate.
Get your trinity away of my RPGs you lazy devs!
They might not have things like threat management (like in gw1) but the idea of frontline and backline still exists (infinity engine games for instance).
What are you expecting if they remove dodge, down state and add faster attacks??
I tell you what will happen. The new meta (I hate this word) will be warriors and guards.
Playing for example with an ele or thief is getting impossible. Classes with a low health pool and less defense (skills) are getting thrown out of the game, because you will need to use soldier gear to not die on every sneeze.
But if you look at other classes like Warrior or Guardian with great defense, big health pool or no need to give a f** about conditions, it won’t be a big problem to still run around with an offensive build using berserker or at least knight armor.
Today it’s possible to play with every class. Most groups want members to wear berserker gear. But there are other groups as well. (You can also make your own LFG – Don’t QQ because others are faster if you want to play in a defense way)
If they change the game like most of you want, it will be like: “XX p1. Only warri/guard with knight or zerk – NO LIGHT or LOW HP CLASS!!!”…
It would be a such great improvement. We would gain so much more diversity….
The current class distribution: (not sure if it’s up to date)
http://guildwars2viz.com/
(edited by dajohi.1970)
Imo Healing Power is an obsolete Stat, whose effect should get merged together with Vitality, so that so more Vitality you have, it does’t increase only your max health, but lets you heal more efficiently others, as you know better how to heal quickly the vital parts of a wounded body.
That would make defensive/supportive builds more on par with the synergy, that the Zerker Meta has between Power, Ferocity and Precision.
Also Toughness needs a boost in its effectivenss to reduce the damge that you receive, you can have like 3000 toughness, and you nearly see no difference in the damage that you receive compared to someone with say 2800 Toughness or 2500 toughness
If you could see better the significant difference of damage reduction from toughness by toughness also affecting the chance of you receivign critical hits as a counter to Ferocity/Precision, then would bethe defensive builds finally up on par with the Zerker Meta
But as long as super defensive builds can be same as easily be killed by zerkers in like 2-3 critical hit bursts from their own damage plus added damage from sigils like the air sigil or fire sigil, if they both happen at the same time with your critical hits, Zerker will always stay meta.
The Stat System of GW2 is simply unbalanced, because it favors too much DPS.
Its somethign that needs a redesign together with some specific Stat Effect Changes and Stat Formula Changes to reduce the effectiveness of the Power/Ferocity/Precision synergy and to raise and give the defensive stats also a synergy, because currently there exists absolutely no synergy between Vitality, Toughness and Healing Power, like between Power, Ferocity and Precision, where one lets critical damage more oftenly happen, the other raises the cirtical damage and the other raises on top of that the overall damage, where its clear, that somethign like that becomes meta, when 3 stats for max dps work like a perfect synergy triangle to each other, while the defense doesn#t do that too
GW2 needs for Game Balance different Stats and a bit more focus on defense.
GW2 needs Dual Effect Stats.
Power = Increases Maximum Damage (includes Damage from Critical Hits) and improves the Efficiency of your Class Special Mechanic.
Vitality = Increases your maximum Health and how efficiently you can heal yourself and others.Stat Formular change,d so that Vitality will give now more Vitality per Point, than before. Currently 10 HP per Point, raised to 25 HP per Point.
Precision = Increases the Chance to land Critical Hits and reduces your Endurance Costs for performing Dodges.
Toughness = Decreases received Maximum Damage and reduces the Max Duration of Conditions you suffer on. Stat Formular changed, so that it reduces more significantly than before the maximum Damage you can receive.
Cunning = Increases Max Condition Damage and Max Condition Duration
Courage = Increases Max Boon Duration and reduces the Chance to receive Critical Hits.
This are in my opinion the 6 Dual Effect Stats, that GW2 needs to become more balanced. Ferocity needs to get removed. it was out of place already from begin on.
Anet needs to bringback a properly designed Ferocity/Dignity/Charm- Personality System instead of planting illogically one of the personalities into the Stat System …
Plus, Cunning would be a much nicer sounding Stat Name, than Condition Damage.
PS: on topic, Healing Power per se has nothing to do with the Downed State.
Like said earlier, Downed State would be best, if changed from silly pin down finishers into more active special attacks, that you can perform, if you break your foe by hitting them enough at their weak spots.
Anet would have to modifiy only the animations of the Finishers to let them work as moveable special attacks.
This together withthe return of GW1’s Morale System and a change of everyones Basic Health due to the remove of the Downed State second Health Bar together with said aboe Stat Redesign and everythign would be fine.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
(edited by Orpheal.8263)
It seems to you like that because you still attached to typical rpg system. It’s an rpg with action combat system.
“still attached” – How can one become attached to something one hasn’t experienced? Perhaps I am attached to the idea? I can tell you that I am not. You can choose to believe or disbelieve me if you want.
(edited by mando.2730)
Down stage brings many interesting boss mechanics otherwise would not be available to the game. Boss can do 100k dmg, but you still could get up.
Remove it is silly. Let along with trinity. If anyone want instant death and trinity, there is a game called wow. We DO NOT need another wow clone. No, thank you. Just go to wow. So you could always die there and no one will res you .
What are you expecting if they remove dodge
They shouldn’t remove dodge.
That would be a silly idea, frankly, as dodge helps you as much (if not more) in a non-stacking situation, as it does in a stack.
They should just get rid of the stuff that makes stacking and meleeing virtually compulsory (if you want to maximise efficiency).
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
They should just get rid of the stuff that makes stacking and meleeing virtually compulsory (if you want to maximise efficiency).
Melee has higher dps (with some exceptions) because it has higher risk and it makes buffing other party members easier.
Down stage brings many interesting boss mechanics otherwise would not be available to the game. Boss can do 100k dmg, but you still could get up.
Remove it is silly. Let along with trinity. If anyone want instant death and trinity, there is a game called wow. We DO NOT need another wow clone. No, thank you. Just go to wow. So you could always die there and no one will res you .
Removing the downed state would not make gw2 a wow clone, and I don’t want the trinity, I just want more solidified roles or significant stat changes etc that will promote build diversity in PvE content.
They should just get rid of the stuff that makes stacking and meleeing virtually compulsory (if you want to maximise efficiency).
Melee has higher dps (with some exceptions) because it has higher risk and it makes buffing other party members easier.
Yes, I’m aware of that and it’s poor design.
Other games do it differently.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
I’ve seen remove all stat combo’s now. (= useless)
I’ve seen the removal of downed state (well it would create a bit more difficulty for zerks, like giving speedrun groups a 5 piece puzzle instead a 4 one, for starters it’s like changing thier 250 piece puzzle for a 2000 piece one. completely bypassing the reason why this is being said)
I’ve seen the wish for complete rework of the games basics. 0.0 (really?, if it’s so bad why stay? change all attributes, removal of this and that…: well you could get 1 attack and 1 stat: life and cursor keys, if you like it: go play pacman. problem solved.)
It really doesn’t matter. You are all advocating to removal of systems to nerf zerker and or remove zerker. But if zerker is gone it will be replaced by the next highest DPS combo. maybe with some toughness. or maybe conditions will be viable. Who knows, conditions will outdamage full DPS without ferocity? Especially without stack caps..
It would also remove the need for toughnes ( as conditions fully negate toughness) then also for the better part precision (well without ferocity would you invest so much for incidental crits? or would you take something else?) …
then we only have a few options left… would it be better?
This isn’t about downstate anymore. Downstate isn’t that OP…. You lose considerable DPS in downstate. Ppl going downstate lose 80% dps, and mobility. They are on a timer. Yes you can rally. which is a method of getting up. If they’d remove it powerressing would come back, and more hate would ensue due to noobs not being able to stay on their feet, while it is the failure of the group to keep ’m on their feet,
I do not think the removal of downstate would be good. I doubt it should be considered at all. especially with new ppl coming into the game all time.
Oh and healing stats is very viable, jut not meta, as it cannot be combined with (the present) meta, ppl frown upon it, but dedicated healers will contribute a lot, though not in DPS.
we do not have a real trinity in this game, but we can make dual purpose characters while maintaining good dps (read not optimal, but more then viable) we could powertank or powerheal, 3rd choice would be heal tank… which is more niche.
condition characters need less stats to function, their options of functioning like hybrids would be bigger, so let’s see and wait until we have a 100 stack cap, and viable conditions in dungeons.
it is a bit out of the box.
And when considering this I’d still say when completely ignoring all damage due to dodges, active defenses and in emergencies( when the group fails) a downed state would suffice to keep starters from wiping too fast BUT it will keep the meta locked, for now, in pure DPS. But it is not the fault of DPS but of the lack of conditions.
Just wanting to say this as last thing: removal of stats will remove options. making the options which arew limited at this moment smaller again. would you invest in an empty trait line, not giving you stats? Would you want the traits removed then?
Where would it end, GW2, the SAB version, you can now play on, with your infinite continue coin?
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
@ Compers:
I don’t want it simply removed, I want it changed and adjusted into a better working active part of the Combat System, that will add more importancy to positioning and PLAYER AWARENESS of their surroundings, because many players don’t care for that if they are in a zerg for example, because they think, they get revived anyway within seconds out of their Downed State.
I want with my proposal to change the Downed Stat into a different System of a hurdle that Players have to overcome first to be able to finish off players together with the return of the way better functionizing Morale System of GW1, which worked alot better as a Penalty System to stop players from dieing through content and playing completely recklessly, because of it reducing everytime you die a large chunk of your Maximum Health, what it makes each time easier for enemies to kill you, if you don’t make a break, overthink first the way how you play and go first for some safer battles to regain back first your Maximum Health by removing your Demoralization Malus and maybe come back to the tougher battles first against, once you have gained some Morale Boost Stacks as Bonus to have the next time more Maximum Health.
With the change of that senseless Downed State which is equal to a second health bar in case that you get downed, anet could raise for everyone in regard of how much Vitality you have for example the maximum Base Health, what would be a good Game balance action against the Zerker-Meta, so that Zerkers can’t kill as easily anymore high defensive builds same as easily nearly, as like squishy targets, because of Toughness and Vitality being totally unbalanced compared to the Zerker-Meta of Power/Ferocity/Precision, where it plays basically no role if you play for example PVT in WvW. A good playd Zerker will kill your defensive build same as quickly, as when you would play Zerker too due to Vitality and especially Toughness doing such an extreme bad job of actually making it alot harder to kill you, if when you would not play such a defensive build
Thats the whole point. Downed State is a cheap excuse for why Anet hasn’t yet changed and rebalanced the whole Stat System in hope, if they keep the Downed System, that it would promote something silly like “that players would cooperate more with each other to help eachother out quickly”
Thats all fine and good, but it doesn’t help you at all to have such an unbalanced Stat System with a silly rooting Downed State out of which you can’t come back in 99% of all cases, if there isn’t luckily a stupid npc creature in your near that you can kill, before you get finished, if otherwise nobody is there, that could help you out.
Brief said, its an obsolete mechanic for the game.
It just helps only for PvE to give players a kind of sense to learn in a situation, when they overestimated themself and to see directly, if they should better change accordign to the situation the builds, try behaps other weapon combinations, other traits out ect. to see if they are on the next try successfzl and don’t get downed, while hopefully beign the next time also more aware of their positioning, using dodges ect. to get not downed so easily, watching better the enemy to avoid beign hit by certain attacks.
Therefore is the current downed state good for only, but thats not something, that my proposed change to the Downed State into a more active combat system integrated mechanic couldn’t do also too, where players would have to be aware of their Break Bars to give not enemies the chance to finish you off with their Special Attacks, while promoting more positioning and situation awareness at the same time
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
(edited by Orpheal.8263)
They should just get rid of the stuff that makes stacking and meleeing virtually compulsory (if you want to maximise efficiency).
Melee has higher dps (with some exceptions) because it has higher risk and it makes buffing other party members easier.
Yes, I’m aware of that and it’s poor design.
Other games do it differently.
other games are designed so that dps rarely takes risk whether melee, or ranged. Since GW2 doesnt work that way, it wouldnt really make sense to have ranged do as much damage as melee, since its easier.
perhaps if you had to aim ranged attacks, and enemies often made you have to move, then ranged attacks could do more damage.
@Pax:
lol 100 Stack Condition Cap..
About what do you dream at nights??, if this seriously was meant as a serious wish..
Besides of that, ANet has already mentioned mutiple times over the past years, that the current Stack Number of 25 is a TECHNICAL LIMIT for the game.
The game simply can’t handle more stacks higher than 25. Point.
Thats why I suggested some long time ago to change the Condition System into a mechanic, that uses multiple TIERS of Conditions, so that if you apply a condition to a target like a World Boss, that easiyl gets 25 stacks of all conditions from the pure mass of players bombarding it with tons of conditions every second, the game would recognize this them and at the moment where Tier 1 of a Condition gets to 25 Stacks, the Condition changes to TIER 2 of it, resets the counter to 1 Stack and of that Tier 2 Condition and from that point on it becomes harder to increase the Stacks to higher Tier 2 Stacks.
Each Condition easily could have say maximum 3 Tiers of its Condition where 25 Stacks of Tier 3 would be enough.
its a system, that wold be simply unreachable for players in PvP and WvW, but it would perfectly make Condition Builds useful for PvE, where World Bosses have millions of health and are pure damage sponges…
Bleedign as Tier 1 Condition for example could have this:
Tier 2 = Deep Wound = increases the speed of Bleeding by 20% and decreases the Max Health of the Target by 20%
Tier 3 = Hemorrhage = increases the Condition Damage of the Bleeding by 25%
It would be a simple system to improve the Condition System to make it useful for PvE, so that fighting in large battles with alot of Condition Builds would make also SENSE, where you don’t lose out your DPS as a Condition Build, where Critical Hit builds are in advantage, cause their damage system doesn’t make you obsolete, if there are already hundreds of other crit build players around you.
Simply raising only, if it would be technical possible the Condition Stack Cap from 25 to 100 would solve absolutely nothing at all. It would postpone the real problem only a tiny bit.
Anet must not take the exact same numbers, but a tiered Condition System would be a good way to solve the Condition System Problem for PvE and due to PvP and WvW having nowhere somethign that has as much as health as like a World Boss in PvE, players won’t reach the higher tiers of conditions in those game mode, where still everything will be balanced around Tier 1 Conditions
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
(edited by Orpheal.8263)
@ Compers:
I don’t want it simply removed, I want it changed and adjusted into a better working active part of the Combat System, that will add more importancy to positioning and PLAYER AWARENESS of their surroundings, because many players don’t care for that if they are in a zerg for example, because they think, they get revived anyway within seconds out of their Downed State.
I want with my proposal to change the Downed Stat into a different System of a hurdle that Players have to overcome first to be able to finish off players together with the return of the way better functionizing Morale System of GW1, which worked alot better as a Penalty System to stop players from dieing through content and playing completely recklessly, because of it reducing everytime you die a large chunk of your Maximum Health, what it makes each time easier for enemies to kill you, if you don’t make a break, overthink first the way how you play and go first for some safer battles to regain back first your Maximum Health by removing your Demoralization Malus and maybe come back to the tougher battles first against, once you have gained some Morale Boost Stacks as Bonus to have the next time more Maximum Health.
With the change of that senseless Downed State which is equal to a second health bar in case that you get downed, anet could raise for everyone in regard of how much Vitality you have for example the maximum Base Health, what would be a good Game balance action against the Zerker-Meta, so that Zerkers can’t kill as easily anymore high defensive builds same as easily nearly, as like squishy targets, because of Toughness and Vitality being totally unbalanced compared to the Zerker-Meta of Power/Ferocity/Precision, where it plays basically no role if you play for example PVT in WvW. A good playd Zerker will kill your defensive build same as quickly, as when you would play Zerker too due to Vitality and especially Toughness doing such an extreme bad job of actually making it alot harder to kill you, if when you would not play such a defensive build
Thats the whole point. Downed State is a cheap excuse for why Anet hasn’t yet changed and rebalanced the whole Stat System in hope, if they keep the Downed System, that it would promote something silly like “that players would cooperate more with each other to help eachother out quickly”
morale and downstate should not be connected, they are two very different types of system, that serve completely different purposes.
Downstate is a mechanic that changes the fight tactics, and allows all players to support each other. Its basically a last ditch medic mechanic.
morale is penalty for defeat, its purpose is to set up a fail condition.
im not saying the game doesnt need penalties for defeat/dying a bunch of times, but downed state is not dying, downed state is getting close to death. Fights/the game is designed with downed state as basically being your final chance to recover, not an after death mechanic.
Downed state is not dying, downed state is basically considered to be getting low health. Like in old resident evil games, where when your health was below a certain point you moved slower, and limped.
As an experiment, I would like to suggest this to everyone: Next time you do some dungeon runs in a full zerker party, any time someone goes down, let them die. Or if they rally, have them leave the fight/area completely, and see how that affects your run. Now try it again, but with a more balanced party composition and see how you go. I tried this earlier today with a group (did AC, CoF and HoTW), and the zerker runs were far more painful than the runs with a more balanced group. All of a sudden, we had a real need to run less glassy builds, and we actually had a couple players specced for power/healing, and a couple specced for tank/condi/boons, and one for dps (but slightly less squishy).
Just a nice little experiment, which improved my experience a whole lot. Of course, put the downed state back in there and we can just zerker our way through picking people up as they go down.