Guild Wars 2

Edit completely rewrote post – Same issue at hand of course.

So here are the issues that have been highlighted by either me or another member.

- Warriors, Mesmers, and GA’s are basically the top tier classes by a mile, whether it be in achieving great DPS, Buffing, Boons, Utility these three classes will come out top each and every time because they have a great combination of at least 3 of those categories at any one time.

- Yes classes such as Thiefs, Ele’s and Engineers can achieve a higher DPS than a Warrior, but they also have about 8K less HP, less buff potential and much less survivability and with regards to the Engineer his skills are not easy to use in the slightest and often are just not viable in dungeons. And then people tell me a Thief is very versatile and next to impossible to kill with all his dodges – Sure if you want to sacrifice a healthy whack of his DPS.

- The main issue at hand here? No it’s not Nurf, the Wa,Ga’s, and Mesmers it’s really very simply add more skill content with regards to both Utility skills and Weapon skills, this will allow the deck building system to come back (Which i personally found to be one of the strongest elements of GW1 and allowed it to stand above and beyond other MMO’s) and allows each class to build into a whole range of specs and still be in the same tier as the current top tier classes.

- Oh and please if you want to disagree with this and tell me a class is better than one of the Top tiers ones don’t relate it to casual leveling Pve or just roaming through the world as that is somewhat pointless as we all need our classes to be good where it counts such as in Fracs.

- XD As this has been asked multiple times now GA = Guardian.

a) cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon. Plus, I got 2 legendarys and enougth gold for one more but not even one stack cof tokens. So this is not a problem of the game – it’s problem of simpleton community.

b) engineers are right behind warriors dps with zerker hgh grenades.

c) so much more to say, but to keep it short: your field of vision seems very limited – maybe you should not judge about any class so naive. Every class has some guys who realy mastered their clas and who are able to be very very effective in pve content also. Again, cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon.

d) PvE does not have to be balanced.

Forestnator.6298:

a) cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon. Plus, I got 2 legendarys and enougth gold for one more but not even one stack cof tokens. So this is not a problem of the game – it’s problem of simpleton community.

b) engineers are right behind warriors dps with zerker hgh grenades.

c) so much more to say, but to keep it short: your field of vision seems very limited – maybe you should not judge about any class so naive. Every class has some guys who realy mastered their clas and who are able to be very very effective in pve content also. Again, cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon.

d) PvE does not have to be balanced.

CoF is pve… And it’s just an element of PvE i used an example as most people can relate to it, i also don’t have a clue what you’re saying throughout half you post, as well it simply doesn’t make sense.

Engineers can achieve a very high DPS yes but if you actually read my post properly you would have seen how i mentioned, there not nearly as easy to play/use and the nade kit isn’t very practical in a lot of situations.

And of course PvE needs to be balanced…. Otherwise what on earth is the point in playing a class that is sub standard to the top tier classes?

Every time some player talks about engineer dps and grenades, my hands hurt.
Seriously, ever tried using a grenade engineer? No autoattack, you’ve got to spam every- single-one of them. Now do that all the time while playing. You’re basically asking for a carpal tunnel syndrome doing so.
Such a build isn’t feasible in the long run – for your health.

Manuhell.2759:

Every time some player talks about engineer dps and grenades, my hands hurt.
Seriously, ever tried using a grenade engineer? No autoattack, you’ve got to spam every- single-one of them. Now do that all the time while playing. You’re basically asking for a carpal tunnel syndrome doing so.
Such a build isn’t feasible in the long run – for your health.

Precisely the point i was making in my post, the fact they are all aim based skills just doesn’t make it feasible but this is straying of the main topic at hand a bit :P

You don’t need to use your LMB to use grenades. You can just double-click spam (or turn on fast-cast ground targeting for single-click spam) and just aim with your mouse. As a Mesmer, you’re going to move your mouse at about the same speed as that, anyways, but for different reasons.

Hunzo.4509:

Forestnator.6298:

a) cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon. Plus, I got 2 legendarys and enougth gold for one more but not even one stack cof tokens. So this is not a problem of the game – it’s problem of simpleton community.

b) engineers are right behind warriors dps with zerker hgh grenades.

c) so much more to say, but to keep it short: your field of vision seems very limited – maybe you should not judge about any class so naive. Every class has some guys who realy mastered their clas and who are able to be very very effective in pve content also. Again, cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon.

d) PvE does not have to be balanced.

CoF is pve… And it’s just an element of PvE i used an example as most people can relate to it, i also don’t have a clue what you’re saying throughout half you post, as well it simply doesn’t make sense.

His point was that you shouldn’t use CoF as an example for PvE, mainly because CoF is so streamlined it’s a terrible example for PvE content, mainly because everyone already knows that 4war1mes zerk team is gonna be the most efficient team for that. Use other examples like other dungeons, maybe, then people can relate better.

penatbater.4710:

Hunzo.4509:

Forestnator.6298:

a) cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon. Plus, I got 2 legendarys and enougth gold for one more but not even one stack cof tokens. So this is not a problem of the game – it’s problem of simpleton community.

b) engineers are right behind warriors dps with zerker hgh grenades.

c) so much more to say, but to keep it short: your field of vision seems very limited – maybe you should not judge about any class so naive. Every class has some guys who realy mastered their clas and who are able to be very very effective in pve content also. Again, cof is no pve – it’s a kitten d dungon.

d) PvE does not have to be balanced.

CoF is pve… And it’s just an element of PvE i used an example as most people can relate to it, i also don’t have a clue what you’re saying throughout half you post, as well it simply doesn’t make sense.

His point was that you shouldn’t use CoF as an example for PvE, mainly because CoF is so streamlined it’s a terrible example for PvE content, mainly because everyone already knows that 4war1mes zerk team is gonna be the most efficient team for that. Use other examples like other dungeons, maybe, then people can relate better.

Well the point still stands with other dungeons tbh, the warriors still have a great DPS with good hp, buffs ect, and mes with utilities and then GA for protection the same applies.

Hunzo.4509:

Manuhell.2759:

Every time some player talks about engineer dps and grenades, my hands hurt.
Seriously, ever tried using a grenade engineer? No autoattack, you’ve got to spam every- single-one of them. Now do that all the time while playing. You’re basically asking for a carpal tunnel syndrome doing so.
Such a build isn’t feasible in the long run – for your health.

Precisely the point i was making in my post, the fact they are all aim based skills just doesn’t make it feasible but this is straying of the main topic at hand a bit :P

While this may be true if you use a normal mouse/keyboard, it isn’t true at all if you use gaming specific peripherals and customize your interface as I do.

A nade Engi is very realistic and incredibly fun to those that know what they’re doing.

Dog.1472:

While this may be true if you use a normal mouse/keyboard, it isn’t true at all if you use gaming specific peripherals and customize your interface as I do.

A nade Engi is very realistic and incredibly fun to those that know what they’re doing.

That would means using macros, though. Kind of a gray area – harmless for the game in practice but technically still a bannable offense.
And you shouldn’t be supposed to use specialized peripherals to play normally, anyway.

What is a “GA”?

Sorry, on topic, I disagree with just about everything. I have played every class extensively and have every class at level 80. This is more a L2P issue than anything else.

For example, ever since I started using a new thief build I came up with, survivability has become a joke, especially next to a war. I find thief to be a ludicrously durable class, why? Because I have nearly infinite dodges, can heal myself far more than a warrior can and all while being fully glass and having top tier DPS.

The issue is not that the classes are horribly out of balance, but that some classes are easier to play than others.

You use CoF as an example and so will I, try joining parties who are incredibly experienced and farm by doing both paths 1 and 2 and swapping through multiple characters. Even though party composition will be all over the place, each and every run is done at nearly the same pace. Why? Because people that do this are for more experienced with the game in general and know how to play.

People see a new player on a necromancer, trying to use a condition build in a way that doesn’t work and automatically assume that necromancers are therefore terrible. The reality of it is that that player has no idea what they’re doing.

The community has one perception and that is what gets eaten up by everyone. However, classes are far closer to one another in terms of strength than people assume. Experience trumps everything else, and the classes you believe are the best are simply the easiest to perform.

Only inexperienced players are going to demand a specific class setup, yes, even in Arah or FotM 40+.

Play the class you find fun. I have yet to run into any groups that have descriminated based on class.

There is a reason that you can just use the looking for group tool to find a group for any dungeon and no one is worried about which class you are. Half the time I don’t even look at what classes join me before we start the dungeon.

That means PvE is balanced enough. I’m just as happy to get an engi in my group as a mesmer.

If you are a power gamer and you want to play one of the ‘top tier’ classes, then you are going to have to play one of the ‘top teir’ classes.

Also Anet is not balancing around speed runs, and nor should they be.

You guys are completely ignoring what the op is saying. All classes are viable. But warriors, guardians and mesmers are in such a strong position in pve. That means for any decent group with multiple alts to choose from they are always going to pick those classes. Mechanics need to be radically changed for the other classes to be on equal terms. Debuffing and condition damage is so kitten in pve and thats what the other classes do pretty well, therefore they are much less useful than a warrior/guardian/mesmer in the current dungeon environment.

Op is refering to the dungeon running meta because talking about casual is stupid and pointless. Everyone knows everything is viable in casual pve because its not hard to be slow and useless when playing casually.

spoj.9672:

You guys are completely ignoring what the op is saying. All classes are viable. But warriors, guardians and mesmers are in such a strong position in pve thats for any decent group with multiple alts to choose from they are always going to pick those classes. Mechanics need to be radically changed for the other classes to be on equal terms. Debuffing and condition damage is so kitten in pve and thats what the other classes do pretty well, therefore they are much less useful than a warrior/guardian/mesmer.

We are not ignoring what he is saying, we are explaining that this is a non issue. GW2 is now a power gamer game and there is no reason to power game unlewss that is your style.

There are always a few classes that out shine the rest in any MMO, that is just how it works. Show me a perfectly balanced MMO between all classes.

If you are a power game you will play one of these classes. There is no content difficult enough in GW2 to even reward power gaming this way. If you want to shave a couple minutes off your CoF speed runs then play a Warrior.

Otherwise play any class you want, the class you find the most fun and don’t worry about the fact that the warrior is out dps’ing you.

This isn’t the type of MMO where your groups are running dps meters and booting you if you are not pulling your weight.

Engy and ele can both pull extreme DPS and even throw in useful boons and conditions specced properly. Hell, a good ranger can deal decent DPS will bringing damage boosting spirits to the game.

But here’s the catch

90% of people who play those classes won’t leverage it. How rarely do eles run lightning hammer for it’s crazy DPS? – How many times do you dismay at an engy spamming flamethrower, or ranger sitting on longbow? – I can almost count on one hand the number of rangers I’ve seen using their one handed sword or spirits properly.

Guardians, mesmers and warriors have well established cookie cutters that are good for a party (ie. mesmer traitted focus and feedback, guardian hammer for protection and party boons), when you pick up an ele, engy, thief or ranger it’s a gamble to whether they’re bringing anything useful to the table short of having them ping gear and tell you their build (And then you look like a huge elitist when they blurt out “flamethrower spec” or “longbow spec” and boot their kitten

Dog.1472:

Sorry, on topic, I disagree with just about everything. I have played every class extensively and have every class at level 80. This is more a L2P issue than anything else.

For example, ever since I started using a new thief build I came up with, survivability has become a joke, especially next to a war. I find thief to be a ludicrously durable class, why? Because I have nearly infinite dodges, can heal myself far more than a warrior can and all while being fully glass and having top tier DPS.

I’m sorry but i struggle to believe that, i can build a Thief spec around the dodging and so forth but sure as hell cannot mantain a top tier dps with it, i’ll believe that when i see it.

Honestly if your going to make claims like that then it’s fine if you back it up, but just making a claim doesn’t make it true without the proof.

COF1 is a statistical outlier, should be nerfed and therefor can’t be used as “an example”. In almost all other content, the issue you present does not exist. You can’t judge an entire game type by the very narrow and short dungeon path played by a small elitist group of speedrunners.

If you don’t care about elitist speedrun play, you’ll find that you could play anything you like, everywhere. Even rangers are viable in a group of skilled players.

Ryuujin.8236:

We are not ignoring what he is saying, we are explaining that this is a non issue. GW2 is now a power gamer game and there is no reason to power game unlewss that is your style.

There are always a few classes that out shine the rest in any MMO, that is just how it works. Show me a perfectly balanced MMO between all classes.

If you are a power game you will play one of these classes. There is no content difficult enough in GW2 to even reward power gaming this way. If you want to shave a couple minutes off your CoF speed runs then play a Warrior.

Otherwise play any class you want, the class you find the most fun and don’t worry about the fact that the warrior is out dps’ing you.

This isn’t the type of MMO where your groups are running dps meters and booting you if you are not pulling your weight.

Right i’ll start of with this quote you clearly haven’t read my post properly as if you had you would understand that i’m not saying any of the classes are not viable, i’m simply saying that warriors mes ect completely outclass the other classes in almost every area which isn’t right i mean a Warrior should not be able to be relatively tanky and deal more DPS (IN GENERAL) than a Thief or a an Ele who will more often than not die instantly if cced. And with regards to the power gaming BS please stop, the game is made for the masses not for the few who are going to spend hundreds on pounds on gaming software and equipment and so forth.

spoj.9672:

You guys are completely ignoring what the op is saying. All classes are viable. But warriors, guardians and mesmers are in such a strong position in pve. That means for any decent group with multiple alts to choose from they are always going to pick those classes. Mechanics need to be radically changed for the other classes to be on equal terms. Debuffing and condition damage is so kitten in pve and thats what the other classes do pretty well, therefore they are much less useful than a warrior/guardian/mesmer in the current dungeon environment.

Op is refering to the dungeon running meta because talking about casual is stupid and pointless. Everyone knows everything is viable in casual pve because its not hard to be slow and useless when playing casually.

Yeah you’ve hit the nail on the head pretty much glad to see that you someone has actually taken the time to read the entire post without skipping it and jumping to conclusions

Which don’t get kitten y with me is what a lot of you have done so far.

CryxTryx.9208:

Guardians, mesmers and warriors have well established cookie cutters that are good for a party (ie. mesmer traitted focus and feedback, guardian hammer for protection and party boons), when you pick up an ele, engy, thief or ranger it’s a gamble to whether they’re bringing anything useful to the table short of having them ping gear and tell you their build (And then you look like a huge elitist when they blurt out “flamethrower spec” or “longbow spec” and boot their kitten

And this again highlights what i mean, it’s not that the other classes are not viable in most circumstances, but whatever they do these three classes will do better and with far more ease.

few things

Warriors and Guardians are really all around dps, support, tank and everything.
A DPS warrior is automatically support, while a guardian can also be a DPS if needed.

A mesmer is there just for signet of inspiration and TW, you don t want 2 mesmers in your party :|
They can t spec for support and be effective as a guardian, they can t dps like a guardian either.

Thief is an extremely powerful PvE class, the fact is that most thieves players are bad, thus people don t want thieves in their parties.
But when you meet a good player with a thief you istantly see what the profession is capable of (the profession….because they can carry a Whole party…thing a ranger can t do for example).

But without wasting too much space:

ANET never attempted at balancing PvE while PvE takes huge HITS from their PvP balance.

At the moment, Elementalist has the highest burst in game. Also Elementalists are very forgiving with the best downed state.
I’m 99% sure that for example 3 Warriors, 1 Elementalist and 1 Mesmer are faster than 4 Warriors and 1 Mesmer in CoF P1.

Ryuujin.8236:

Guardians, mesmers and warriors have well established cookie cutters that are good for a party (ie. mesmer traitted focus and feedback, guardian hammer for protection and party boons), when you pick up an ele, engy, thief or ranger it’s a gamble to whether they’re bringing anything useful to the table short of having them ping gear and tell you their build (And then you look like a huge elitist when they blurt out “flamethrower spec” or “longbow spec” and boot their kitten

And yet throwing flames seems to be the average elitist spec, given that anyone not meeting their standards is flamed to oblivion.

I don’t even want to play with such people. Elitist comments have me leave immediately, they depress me and I don’t play games to be depressed.

LordByron.8369:

few things

Warriors and Guardians are really all around dps, support, tank and everything.
A DPS warrior is automatically support, while a guardian can also be a DPS if needed.

A mesmer is there just for signet of inspiration and TW, you don t want 2 mesmers in your party :|
They can t spec for support and be effective as a guardian, they can t dps like a guardian either.

Thief is an extremely powerful PvE class, the fact is that most thieves players are bad, thus people don t want thieves in their parties.
But when you meet a good player with a thief you istantly see what the profession is capable of (the profession….because they can carry a Whole party…thing a ranger can t do for example).

But without wasting too much space:

ANET never attempted at balancing PvE while PvE takes huge HITS from their PvP balance.

Having two mesmers for one is great… They have so much utility and they have awesome defensive skills if played right, and the thing with warriors and ga completely ignoring the DPS element is there sheer power to buff an entire party with one click, which is more or less above and beyond any other classes buffing power.

And again with the Thief…. I play Thief yes i understand Thiefs deal great damage and can be mobile but here is the simple fact.

- More mobility = Less damage
- More survivability = Less damage
- Pure DPS build means they can achieve the same DPS as a warrior by spamming ONE skill with a weapon set that in my eyes isn’t what a Thief should revolve around (Pistol and sword) = Same DPS as warrior, No boons for party, no cc, very little escape mechanisms other than dodge and shadowstep. And very very squishy.

Your missing my point entirely again, i’m not saying the other classes are not viable i’m simply saying that those three classes outclass any other class in the aspects which are important in PvE.

Its a non-issue in this game.
I am not prevented in any way from doing dungeons or any PvE content due to my not playing one of those 3 classes. Yeah there’s elitists for CoF who want only the 2 in specific gear. That’ll be a non-issue anyway as well with the dungeon gold nerf coming (read the blog if you don’t know – no more gold drops from bosses in dungeons).
If people fall into the mindset they need to be one of those 3 classes for quick and effective runs in PvE, its their own fault. Its a personal mindset to be in, usually stemming from letting the few in the community who feel this way get to you. If shaving seconds off a FotM or CoE or AC run is that important to someone, let them find other elitist types. Personally, shaving a few seconds or minutes off a run isn’t even something I consider. And it doesn’t matter in the 99% other PvE in the game. It only matters to the speedrunners of CoF and a couple other paths of other dungeons (though nowhere to the extent of CoF)
Theres a ton of other players who run dungeons and PvE content and dont care what class you are as long as you know how to play it.

@Hunzo you got mine and cryxtryx quotes the wrong way round. You were actually agreeing with me. But you’ve quoted as if i was the person disagreeing :<

MrRuin.9740:

Its a non-issue in this game.
I am not prevented in any way from doing dungeons or any PvE content due to my not playing one of those 3 classes. Yeah there’s elitists for CoF who want only the 2 in specific gear. That’ll be a non-issue anyway as well with the dungeon gold nerf coming (read the blog if you don’t know – no more gold drops from bosses in dungeons).
If people fall into the mindset they need to be one of those 3 classes for quick and effective runs in PvE, its their own fault. Its a personal mindset to be in, usually stemming from letting the few in the community who feel this way get to you. If shaving seconds off a FotM or CoE or AC run is that important to someone, let them find other elitist types. Personally, shaving a few seconds or minutes off a run isn’t even something I consider. And it doesn’t matter in the 99% other PvE in the game. It only matters to the speedrunners of CoF and a couple other paths of other dungeons (though nowhere to the extent of CoF)
Theres a ton of other players who run dungeons and PvE content and dont care what class you are as long as you know how to play it.

Ok for the love of christ i was just using CoF as an example, lets take fracs the best classes again will more often than not be those three for the simple reasons that i having to restate over and over because you lot are not reading the post……

THE OTHER CLASSES ARE VIABLE, JUST NOT TO THE SAME EXTENT AS MES WAR AND GA, A MES WARR AND GA CAN DO EVERYTHING ANY OTHER CLASS DOES BUT BETTER, THEY DEAL BETTER DPS WHILE REMAINING TANKY (WARRIOR) THEY CAN ALL AOE BUFF WITH GREAT BUFFS SUCH AS MIGHT, MESMER HAS GREAT UTILITY KITS MAKING KILLING ENEMIES FAR EASIER, AND ELIMINATING THE RISKS OF DOWNS, A GA AGAIN CAN GIVE GREAT AOE BOONS AND REFLECTIONS PROTECTIONS.

I am not saying this is regards just to CoF i simply just used CoF as a bloody example.

MrRuin.9740:

Its a non-issue in this game.
I am not prevented in any way from doing dungeons or any PvE content due to my not playing one of those 3 classes. Yeah there’s elitists for CoF who want only the 2 in specific gear. That’ll be a non-issue anyway as well with the dungeon gold nerf coming (read the blog if you don’t know – no more gold drops from bosses in dungeons).
If people fall into the mindset they need to be one of those 3 classes for quick and effective runs in PvE, its their own fault. Its a personal mindset to be in, usually stemming from letting the few in the community who feel this way get to you. If shaving seconds off a FotM or CoE or AC run is that important to someone, let them find other elitist types. Personally, shaving a few seconds or minutes off a run isn’t even something I consider. And it doesn’t matter in the 99% other PvE in the game. It only matters to the speedrunners of CoF and a couple other paths of other dungeons (though nowhere to the extent of CoF)
Theres a ton of other players who run dungeons and PvE content and dont care what class you are as long as you know how to play it.

It usually shaves off minutes and even hours in other dungeons. CoF is a poor example as everyone knows about that. However most people dont seem to realise that in other dungeons the same rules are applied, full dps with maybe 1 dps guard for aegis and utility. It makes things so much easier and it really shouldnt. Every class should have a viable role somewhere in one of the dungeons atleast. But they dont. Debuffing is crap, not boosting dmg is crap and survivability is pointless. The meta is all about raw dps which really doesnt give a lot of options for team composition and class diversity.

Its not an issue for casuals because they dont seem to care about spending 3 hours in a dungeon which takes 20mins max (with mixed classes but proper builds). Stop acting as if its a non issue. It is an issue which is easily fixed, either with new skills for all classes or more interesting game mechanics which actually rely on condition dmg or interrupts to go faster.

spoj.9672:

MrRuin.9740:

Its a non-issue in this game.
I am not prevented in any way from doing dungeons or any PvE content due to my not playing one of those 3 classes. Yeah there’s elitists for CoF who want only the 2 in specific gear. That’ll be a non-issue anyway as well with the dungeon gold nerf coming (read the blog if you don’t know – no more gold drops from bosses in dungeons).
If people fall into the mindset they need to be one of those 3 classes for quick and effective runs in PvE, its their own fault. Its a personal mindset to be in, usually stemming from letting the few in the community who feel this way get to you. If shaving seconds off a FotM or CoE or AC run is that important to someone, let them find other elitist types. Personally, shaving a few seconds or minutes off a run isn’t even something I consider. And it doesn’t matter in the 99% other PvE in the game. It only matters to the speedrunners of CoF and a couple other paths of other dungeons (though nowhere to the extent of CoF)
Theres a ton of other players who run dungeons and PvE content and dont care what class you are as long as you know how to play it.

It usually shaves off minutes and even hours in other dungeons. CoF is a poor example as everyone knows about that. However most people dont seem to realise that in other dungeons the same rules are applied, full dps with maybe 1 dps guard for aegis and utility. It makes things so much easier and it really shouldnt. Every class should have a viable role somewhere in one of the dungeons atleast. But they dont. Debuffing is crap, not boosting dmg is crap and survivability is pointless. The meta is all about raw dps which really doesnt give a lot of options for team composition and class diversity.

Its not an issue for casuals because they dont seem to care about spending 3 hours in a dungeon which takes 20mins max (with mixed classes but proper builds). Stop acting as if its a non issue. It is an issue which is easily fixed, either with new skills for all classes or more interesting game mechanics which actually rely on condition dmg or interrupts to go faster.

+1 I corrected the quotes as well, and this guy gets it exactly.

Remember that game called Guild Wars 1, where every profession can bring something to the table, and almost every profession has several different pve builds to use? What were them again? Hundred Blade Warriors, Endurance Axe Warriors, Earth Shaker Warriors? Fire Nuker elementalists, Infure Bonder Elementalists, AP Caller Elementalists? Energy Surge Mesmer, Panic Mesmer, Illusion Mesmer? AP Bomber Necromancer, Mark of Pain Necromancer, Minion Bomber Necromancer, Minion master Necromancer, Orders Necromancer? Even the most broken classes had at last one top build. And all this is excluding hero’s builds, farming builds, running builds, and builds for specific party setups. And all this is taking into account that GW1 was extremely hard to balance, with countless useless skills, and even many “viable” builds that are not included in the meta I stated above because they were not as good.

Someone is trying to defend GW2’s raw DPS meta, 4x Warrior/ 1x Mesmer or 3x Warrior/ 1x Guardian/ 1x Mesmer by claiming that there are plenty of other MMOs who are equally bad. Well, just because several other MMOs suck at this, it does not justify GW2’s poor job at pve balance.

Hunzo.4509:

Having two mesmers for one is great… They have so much utility and they have awesome defensive skills if played right, and the thing with warriors and ga completely ignoring the DPS element is there sheer power to buff an entire party with one click, which is more or less above and beyond any other classes buffing power.

that is why nobody wants 2 anywhere?
Ask yourself wich are the best parties for any dungeons/fotm …if you can t tell browse gw2 lfg.
People never wants more than 1 mesmer.

And again with the Thief…. I play Thief yes i understand Thiefs deal great damage and can be mobile but here is the simple fact.

- More mobility = Less damage
- More survivability = Less damage
- Pure DPS build means they can achieve the same DPS as a warrior by spamming ONE skill with a weapon set that in my eyes isn’t what a Thief should revolve around (Pistol and sword) = Same DPS as warrior, No boons for party, no cc, very little escape mechanisms other than dodge and shadowstep. And very very squishy.

Sorry i can t comment this….
You said so many things that simply are not true….you should just play fotm 48 until you find a good thief.

Then you ll see 90% things you wrote are just incorrect.
Its quite knew how good thief are for fotms higher levels infact you’d almost prefer a thief to a warrior (for sure better to have 1 of each than 2 of any).

I jsut think that opposite to other game modes, in PvE thief has the highest skill ceiling.

And to everyone saying ele has the top DPS…
Conjured weapons is a GMMICK build that works ONLY in cof/coe easy paths.

Ele is infact the LOWEST dps in the game without abusing unintended stuff (you need to turn off autotarget to get those,…. quite a proff they are unintended) that locks the profession in 5 offensive skills with 0 defense.

COF is a gold mine and yes for mining gold efficiently you need the most efficient machines which are zerk warriors maybe someone discovers that full zerk elementalist goup is the best mining machine who knows.
Personally I dont wanna my character to be the most efficient mining COF machine
I play for fun

LordByron.8369:

—
And to everyone saying ele has the top DPS…
Conjured weapons is a GMMICK build that works ONLY in cof/coe easy paths.

Ele is infact the LOWEST dps in the game without abusing unintended stuff (you need to turn off autotarget to get those,…. quite a proff they are unintended).

Auto-targeting is quite bad criteria for what’s supposed to be intended. Am I breaking the game when I use Rush or Savage Leap without auto-targeting?

Also it seems to work wonders on Arah: http://youtu.be/0A8mLHDHiQU
or on low-end stuff like 70+ Fractals…

But I wouldn’t complaint until it’s fixed.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Remember that game called Guild Wars 1, where every profession can bring something to the table, and almost every profession has several different pve builds to use? What were them again? Hundred Blade Warriors, Endurance Axe Warriors, Earth Shaker Warriors? Fire Nuker elementalists, Infure Bonder Elementalists, AP Caller Elementalists? Energy Surge Mesmer, Panic Mesmer, Illusion Mesmer? AP Bomber Necromancer, Mark of Pain Necromancer, Minion Bomber Necromancer, Minion master Necromancer, Orders Necromancer? Even the most broken classes had at last one top build. And all this is excluding hero’s builds, farming builds, running builds, and builds for specific party setups. And all this is taking into account that GW1 was extremely hard to balance, with countless useless skills, and even many “viable” builds that are not included in the meta I stated above because they were not as good.

Someone is trying to defend GW2’s raw DPS meta, 4x Warrior/ 1x Mesmer or 3x Warrior/ 1x Guardian/ 1x Mesmer by claiming that there are plenty of other MMOs who are equally bad. Well, just because several other MMOs suck at this, it does not justify GW2’s poor job at pve balance.

+1 +1 +1 This is what i loved about GW1 and it just hasn’t been brought to the table yet in GW2.

LordByron.8369:

Hunzo.4509:

Having two mesmers for one is great… They have so much utility and they have awesome defensive skills if played right, and the thing with warriors and ga completely ignoring the DPS element is there sheer power to buff an entire party with one click, which is more or less above and beyond any other classes buffing power.

that is why nobody wants 2 anywhere?
Ask yourself wich are the best parties for any dungeons/fotm …if you can t tell browse gw2 lfg.
People never wants more than 1 mesmer.

And again with the Thief…. I play Thief yes i understand Thiefs deal great damage and can be mobile but here is the simple fact.

- More mobility = Less damage
- More survivability = Less damage
- Pure DPS build means they can achieve the same DPS as a warrior by spamming ONE skill with a weapon set that in my eyes isn’t what a Thief should revolve around (Pistol and sword) = Same DPS as warrior, No boons for party, no cc, very little escape mechanisms other than dodge and shadowstep. And very very squishy.

Sorry i can t comment this….
You said so many things that simply are not true….you should just play fotm 48 until you find a good thief.

Then you ll see 90% things you wrote are just incorrect.
Its quite knew how good thief are for fotms higher levels infact you’d almost prefer a thief to a warrior (for sure better to have 1 of each than 2 of any).

I jsut think that opposite to other game modes, in PvE thief has the highest skill ceiling.

And to everyone saying ele has the top DPS…
Conjured weapons is a GMMICK build that works ONLY in cof/coe easy paths.

Ele is infact the LOWEST dps in the game without abusing unintended stuff (you need to turn off autotarget to get those,…. quite a proff they are unintended) that locks the profession in 5 offensive skills with 0 defense.

Again i’m getting really kitten ed of you lot telling me a Thief is better than a warrior for DPS and tankyness/survivability yet i get no proof of this what so ever just empty claims…

Wethospu.6437:

Auto-targeting is quite bad criteria for what’s supposed to be intended. Am I breaking the game when I use Rush or Savage Leap without auto-targeting?

With fieryGS
Yes and it will be patched asap count on that.

Also it seems to work wonders on Arah: http://youtu.be/0A8mLHDHiQU
or on low-end stuff like 70+ Fractals…

yes it works wonder in a party that can actually negate ANY mechanic.

See that purple bubble and stuff

The best part is where in this forum you get Always l2p answers……even when you state obvious stuff with the most situational and weird reason.

@Hunzo…
If you don t want to hear me.
Ask in thief forum……there are actually good PvE thief that will explain how to use daggerstorm, how to use finishers, how to premablind and how to bypass Defiant.

Or as i said play fotm 48 where you find quite a lot thieves that know really well how to pve.
If you are a thief you will have detailed answers after seeing them in actions.

As far as I know, FGS has been in the game since launch. So you have had plenty of time to use it. Perhaps it gets changed but I wouldn’t focus on that too much until it actually happens. Should I start crying about Warrior DPS in case it some day gets nerfed?

The whole game is all about negating the mechanics. People bring Guardian/Mesmer for that. Warriors don’t work that well alone. But in your opinion Elementalists should?

And yet 55 monks were never nerfed

You see i’m not asking for anything to be nurfed, as previously mentioned by another user in GW1 every class had a build had the possibility to be the best in each field more or less whether it be tanking, support, DPS and more often than not they could achieve multiple builds which were useful in a variety of scenarios. Right now though that only seems to apply for GA’s and Warriors and Mesmers, and this way of gameplay was achieved in GW1 because there was such an immense skill pool.

I do personally think that certain classes need a little buff here and there but on the whole what i would like to see is a greater choice not only in utility skills but a choice in weapon skills.

marnick.4305:

And yet 55 monks were never nerfed

That’s because Anet in GW1 took a more sensible approach. if a particular combination of skills was proving OP, instead of nerfing those skills (and breaking all associated builds regardless of OPness), they instead introduced counters.

This actually increased build diversity, by introducing paper-rock scissors mechanisms, instead of just reducing build diversity into a narrow straightjacket of “allowed builds”.

In the case the the 55 monks, they introduced new enemies that could strip enchantments in all the popular farming zones of the time (For example those popup critters in UW, jade scarabs in the crystal desert – these were added as a DIRECT response to the 55 monk farmers)

LordByron.8369:

Hunzo.4509:

Having two mesmers for one is great… They have so much utility and they have awesome defensive skills if played right, and the thing with warriors and ga completely ignoring the DPS element is there sheer power to buff an entire party with one click, which is more or less above and beyond any other classes buffing power.

that is why nobody wants 2 anywhere?
Ask yourself wich are the best parties for any dungeons/fotm …if you can t tell browse gw2 lfg.
People never wants more than 1 mesmer.

Best is highly subjective. I would much rather have some less skilled and less optimal classes in my group that bring more fun than mute one-dimensional optimals. And I have run dungeons with 3 mesmers. It was a lot of fun and it took no more time than usual. Farming becomes much more bearable when one is having fun. But zerker gearchecks are serious business. Fun IST VERBOTEN!

Then again, I am a cookie-cutting AH hammer guardian, so I am probably just as guilty. Then again, when kittens are hitting the fan I can actually save the day whereas the zerker warrior will eat dirt. Versatility is such a lovely thing to have.

Manuhell.2759:

Every time some player talks about engineer dps and grenades, my hands hurt.
Seriously, ever tried using a grenade engineer? No autoattack, you’ve got to spam every- single-one of them. Now do that all the time while playing. You’re basically asking for a carpal tunnel syndrome doing so.
Such a build isn’t feasible in the long run – for your health.

Nostromo/Naga

:)

mesmers are really just there for the spell reflect and the timewarp. you dont gain much (if anything its a loss) by taking more than one. those are the correct reasons to be wanted. guardians are wanted for their group buffs, again, correct reasons to be wanted.

warriors are wanted because nothing compares to the low skill cap and high damage of 100 blades, so you can always count on a pug warrior, no matter how mentally inferior he may be, to put out better damage than most other people.

nerf hundred blades hard. /thread?

Raven.9603:

nerf hundred blades hard. /thread?

No.

The main issue here, in the Mes/War/Guard teams – or to be more precise, in the “Full Zerk” meta – is not in the classes.

The problem is the content.

Raven.9603:

nerf hundred blades hard. /thread?

Nurf to any of the classes that i mentioned is the last thing i want… I want changes made to the inferior classes, so they can live up to the same Tier of those classes.

AndrewSX.3794:

Raven.9603:

nerf hundred blades hard. /thread?

No.

The main issue here, in the Mes/War/Guard teams – or to be more precise, in the “Full Zerk” meta – is not in the classes.

The problem is the content.

And yes the problem is content with regards to the skill content there just is not nearly enough of it.

spoj.9672:

MrRuin.9740:

Its a non-issue in this game.
I am not prevented in any way from doing dungeons or any PvE content due to my not playing one of those 3 classes. Yeah there’s elitists for CoF who want only the 2 in specific gear. That’ll be a non-issue anyway as well with the dungeon gold nerf coming (read the blog if you don’t know – no more gold drops from bosses in dungeons).
If people fall into the mindset they need to be one of those 3 classes for quick and effective runs in PvE, its their own fault. Its a personal mindset to be in, usually stemming from letting the few in the community who feel this way get to you. If shaving seconds off a FotM or CoE or AC run is that important to someone, let them find other elitist types. Personally, shaving a few seconds or minutes off a run isn’t even something I consider. And it doesn’t matter in the 99% other PvE in the game. It only matters to the speedrunners of CoF and a couple other paths of other dungeons (though nowhere to the extent of CoF)
Theres a ton of other players who run dungeons and PvE content and dont care what class you are as long as you know how to play it.

It usually shaves off minutes and even hours in other dungeons. CoF is a poor example as everyone knows about that. However most people dont seem to realise that in other dungeons the same rules are applied, full dps with maybe 1 dps guard for aegis and utility. It makes things so much easier and it really shouldnt. Every class should have a viable role somewhere in one of the dungeons atleast. But they dont. Debuffing is crap, not boosting dmg is crap and survivability is pointless. The meta is all about raw dps which really doesnt give a lot of options for team composition and class diversity.

Its not an issue for casuals because they dont seem to care about spending 3 hours in a dungeon which takes 20mins max (with mixed classes but proper builds). Stop acting as if its a non issue. It is an issue which is easily fixed, either with new skills for all classes or more interesting game mechanics which actually rely on condition dmg or interrupts to go faster.

because it is a non-issue. Who is spending hours in dungeons? I know I’m not, and I don’t run full party warriors/mes/guard in berserker. Don’t spend anything near hours in any dungeon and sometimes only have 1 of the 3 classes in question.
I’m not disagreeing with the fact other classes should have more viable roles, but some of it is being blown way out of proportion.
If you’re spending hours in dungeons in this game, something besides class choice for the party is wrong.

Hunzo.4509:

And yes the problem is content with regards to the skill content there just is not nearly enough of it.

That’s not what it meant..

Issue with content in regards of the full zerk teams topic (that’s what are we talking about no?):

It get broken so much and so easily by raw DPS it’s just ridicolous.
It doesn’t test/need/reward any deeper tactical play, no CC, no Support, just DPS the world down.

(to speedrunners/zerk team supporters: i’ll give that doing DGs so fast and so clean is much harder to pull off than how “DPS things down” might make to think. Timing dodges/pull/group buffs and so on. But point still stands.)

What in the hell is a GA?

After reading some of the posts I really hope people are not referring to “Guardians” or “Guards” as GA’s

“If you’re spending hours in dungeons in this game, something besides class choice for the party is wrong. "

I must admit this is another issue for a game where it was going to be anti grind… The only viable way to make money in this game and not even that much to be honest is to grind dungeons…. But this is another issue entirely and i would rather not stray from the topic at hand.

Amun Ra.6435:

What in the hell is a GA?

Guardian = GA

It’s just an abbreviation.