Guild Wars 2

Up until recently the tone of the community was very casual. Outside of private groups speed runs were rarely seen and players accepted any professions and class roles as long as long as the player was experienced.

However, after 6 months we are finally seeing a meta-game being formed, and honestly, I don’t like the looks of it. Mesmers, guardians, and a few high-damaging classes are essentially a requirement for high-level play. Many classes simply don’t have strong roles in the meta-game and are being left in the dust.

CoF speed runs which are very popular at the moment are a prime example of this, but it seems to be branching out to other areas. I’ve witnessed this spreading to FotM, CoE, SE and other dungeons where more and more public groups are starting to seek specialized roles.

This seems to go against what the developers intended for this game. They removed the trinity and attempted to make the game so it doesn’t require specific classes, but thus far the roles have only shifted. In comparison to GW1, instead of a monk in every group we need a mesmer for their portal and time warp. Instead of a warrior we have a guardian for projectile reflect and group buffs. As our damagers we have 100 blades warriors. We also have thieves for their stealth and decent melee damage.

But what about the other professions? Elementalists, engineers, necromancers, and rangers don’t seem to have strong roles in this meta-game. I’m not sure if this trend will shift, but it’s not a good sign to me. One of the selling points of this game to me was not being funneled into certain professions and roles, but it seems like that is starting to happen.

But if it does continue down this path of specialized groups, I hope we see the less popular classes receive updates to bring them in line with the others. I don’t want another one of my favorite professions (ranger) to be in the same state my favorite profession in GW1 (dervish) was.

As much as I think it is true, you shouldn’t discredit Anet for making the content viable for ALL professions. Currently, the specialized groups are only limited to either speed runs/higher level fractals.

However, I foresee in the end that the meta-game for PVE will be moving towards DPS/Berzerk with the dodge mechanic as the player become more skilled. It boils down to which group composition deals damage higher/faster unless Anet do something.

Welcome to PvE.

phandaria.4891:

As much as I think it is true, you shouldn’t discredit Anet for making the content viable for ALL professions. Currently, the specialized groups are only limited to either speed runs/higher level fractals.

True, and I hope it stays that way!

With development usually comes more challenging content, which besides being able to compete with the profits generated by these speed runs unless I conform, is probably my main concern. Unless they handle it correctly we might start seeing the same problems we had in GW1.

So what your saying is….

You want more brutally challenging content that doesnt allow for these builds but focuses on sustained damage output ?

Well, chances of that happening are slim unless they rework conditions. In the likely hood that actually happens you’ll see those classes you mentioned get hit with a series of nerfs to adjust for them all being able to stack unique conditions past the current 25 cap.

Another reason why pugging sucks. Since I run with my guild and we play with literally any profession and any dungeon, I don’t have a problem. My main is a mesmer anyway, but I run with engies, rangers, ele’s and necros, pretty much all the time. In fact, the people I run most with are rangers and necros, just because quite a few people in my guild play them. We have our share of engies and eles too.

Even in Guild Wars 1, there was this bring the flavor of the month builds for the Underworld, even though you didn’t need them.

My advice to you is not to team with those people and play with people who enjoy playing the game, instead of speed running.

I won’t get there faster, but I’ll be enjoying myself the entire time.

Bri.8354:

Up until recently the tone of the community was very casual. Outside of private groups speed runs were rarely seen and players accepted any professions and class roles as long as long as the player was experienced.

However, after 6 months we are finally seeing a meta-game being formed, and honestly, I don’t like the looks of it. Mesmers, guardians, and a few high-damaging classes are essentially a requirement for high-level play. Many classes simply don’t have strong roles in the meta-game and are being left in the dust.

CoF speed runs which are very popular at the moment are a prime example of this, but it seems to be branching out to other areas. I’ve witnessed this spreading to FotM, CoE, SE and other dungeons where more and more public groups are starting to seek specialized roles.

This seems to goes against what the developers intended for this game. They removed the trinity and attempted to make the game so it doesn’t require specific classes, but thus far the roles have only shifted. In comparison to GW1, instead of a monk in every group we need a mesmer for their portal and time warp. Instead of a warrior we have a guardian for projectile reflect and group buffs. As our damagers we have 100 blades warriors. We also have thieves for their stealth and decent melee damage.

But what about the other professions? Elementalists, engineers, necromancers, and rangers don’t seem to have strong roles in this meta-game. I’m not sure if this trend will shift, but it’s not a good sign to me. One of the selling points of this game to me was not being funneled into certain professions and roles, but it seems like that is starting to happen.

But if it does continue down this path of specialized groups, I hope we see the less popular classes receive updates to bring them in line with the others. I don’t want another one of my favorite professions (ranger) to be in the same state my favorite profession in GW1 (dervish) was.

This is my biggest worry in WvW and its upcoming update to make more things character bound. Think about those under utilized professions that are in need of a buff/redesign. We’re going to witness this shift the Guardian, Warrior, and Mesmer. I love my engineer and have paid enough into the ANET coffers trying to make the profession as good as the others and its not possible. Engineer works great for solo, but lacks everywhere else.

So the meta has already begun and this update will seal the deal for the WvW community.

This is why as a casual player with no strong guild ties would love to have a LFG Tool. That way we don’t have to sit around for ages trying to find a group that isn’t “elitist” and looking for specific professions/builds.

Granted, I’m sure that even with a LFG Tool, there will be some people that will bail at the sight of the PUG they were assigned to, but overall, I think this tool would help most casual players such as myself.

Bob.5732:

This is why as a casual player with no strong guild ties would love to have a LFG Tool. That way we don’t have to sit around for ages trying to find a group that isn’t “elitist” and looking for specific professions/builds.

Granted, I’m sure that even with a LFG Tool, there will be some people that will bail at the sight of the PUG they were assigned to, but overall, I think this tool would help most casual players such as myself.

gw2lfg.com

[/quote]gw2lfg.com[/quote]

Yeah, I’m aware of the site and my experience with it is…well, I flipping hate it. I know ANET is working on LFG Tool so I’m just waiting on that for time being.

Bob.5732:

Yeah, I’m aware of the site and my experience with it is…well, I flipping hate it. I know ANET is working on LFG Tool so I’m just waiting on that for time being.

They are? May I have a link to this? Last I heard from some players was they never intended to, so likely wont.

Make your own group and shut up already holy crap.

You see someone putting a mes+ war/gaurd group together for CoF why does it bother you? Just make your own or join another that doesn’t care.

Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing during their play time and play the effing game my god, the QQ in these forums about what other people are doing in game is a bit over the top.

You can do any dungeon with any mixture of classes, the only place where meta applies is cof path 1 farming. Outide of cof path 1, I’ve never been asked to play a certain toon for any other content.

Edenwolf.6328:

You can do any dungeon with any mixture of classes, the only place where meta applies is cof path 1 farming. Outide of cof path 1, I’ve never been asked to play a certain toon for any other content.

The meta can be applied to the entire game but we are only seeing it applied to small portion of the game at the moment. I’ve done Crucible of Eternity runs that benefit just as much as the tactics used in CoF do.

Heck, if there aren’t diminishing returns in place it would probably be a really effective method of obtaining charged cores/lodestones.

agree.

this mainly because crowd control is useless and raw DPS is king of the game.

so the only damage prevention is shifted from CC (as it is in other games) to blocks, two boons and reflection which are mainly available to guardians/mesmers etc

Anet have two ways to fix this:

1) make all classes have some kind of equally working damage prevention mechanic.
—> when i say " equally working" I mean that in comparison between aegis and blind which in theory should be similar, the aegis is far more effective and useful than blind, i.e. they are NOT equally working.

when every profession will have access to block and reflection, it will make the professions equally viable but this will lead to homogenization of all professions and make them dull…

2) the second way is my dream. which is harder to balance, but much better and rewarding.
this is the way that distinguish between good game that lasts years or a game which is a mere flavor of the month.
make CC useful, make CC meaningful!
don’t you see that all the classes that have CC in their design are the weak classes!? (engy, ranger, necro etc)
when CC and smart use of CC will be available, rangers will be welcomed in parties again; for their traps and roots. engineers will be welcomed in parties for the nets and sticky bombs, necroes will be sought and praised for the awesome chills and grab-wells!

immobilization, cripple, chill, they all should last 10 seconds on base duration (before traits, buffs etc)

stun and daze should start from 5 second duration.
knock up and knock down should have stun and daze as after effect.

trash mobs (read: silver mobs) should be taken out of combat by CC, allowing a smart party to kill them one by one.

bosses shouldn’t be defiant and unshakable.
bosses should be perma weakened in five men group.
bosses should be chilled, immobilized, crippled, blinded.

for the sake of all good in MMOs, why the defiant stack re- applied instantly after you used a single CC?
if the group has removed defiant stacks on boss, make it vulnerable to CC for 10 next seconds! because as the situation today:
CC —-—→ doesn’t matter,
removing defiant from bosses —-—> doesn’t matter
smart group play beside finishing others combos —-—> doesn’t matter

all that matters is 1)direct DPS 2) dodge 3) damage prevention via block or reflect.

Anet , you have the power to change! you can make this game really worthy!

In my experience all games with any kind of multiplayer have a meta-game that largely revolves around people demanding everyone use the current flavour of the month builds. But as the name implies if you give it a month or so those builds will change and something else will be popular. If you just stick with what you want to play sooner or later the two will coincide.

It was the same in GW1. Some weeks people would rage-quit JQ because they saw a ranger with a pet. Next week every other person was running a pet build.

phandaria.4891:

However, I foresee in the end that the meta-game for PVE will be moving towards DPS/Berzerk with the dodge mechanic as the player become more skilled. .

Actually, amongst mesmers the meta’s gone the other direction – originally it was DPS-way or no-way. The vast majority running shatter/zerker builds; now people are branching out and you’re seeing more serious discussion and usage of support/tank builds in PvE

Speed clearers are always going to have specialised setups and rules useful for the particular area. If you are running an area for hours at a time, those minutes you save by min/maxing everything is significant. High level FotM is hard, so it makes sense that people would want extra protection or party support which some classes are better at.

Outside of those, there are elitists and groups with l2 kitten ues that aren’t fun to play with in the first place so if they kick me for the “wrong” gear or the “wrong” class, good – they saved me time and aggravation.

I’ve never had a group ask me to switch classes or builds unless it was a situation where I joined as a guard and they already had 2-3. I remember meta in gw1, there is nothing remotely close to it here and I hope it stays like that.

Bri.8354:

But what about the other professions? Elementalists, engineers, necromancers, and rangers don’t seem to have strong roles in this meta-game. I’m not sure if this trend will shift, but it’s not a good sign to me. One of the selling points of this game to me was not being funneled into certain professions and roles, but it seems like that is starting to happen.

I agree with you that there are certains classes which are nearly needed to have a reasonable experience in GW 2, them being Guardians*, Mesmers** and Warriors***.

It’s basically GW 2’s Trinity.

Support*, Utility**, Damage***.

While other classes can fill certains roles as well, they are just by far not as good as them.

Support:
The Guardian with his sheer amount of group support and control, that may be to much to even list up.

A Healing Power Necromancer with Staff and Wells can be an amazing support, but after all, he can’t keep up with all the Utility and Boons the Guardian has to offer.

Elementalist has great potential for healing and buffing, but over all comes short in terms of (group) survive ability and can’t compete with the shiny Guardian running ahead, smacking people in the ground while keeping his whole party alive, CC immune and stacked up with dmg buffs.

Engeneer has a bit of everything. Average defense, average boon control, average healing, average utility.
But as Guardians are amazing in every of these aspects, why would you not take them instead?

Utility:
There is nothing that can compete with a Mesmer for Utility in the game. Miles behind (so far you might not even mention it) may be a Thief with some short group stealths and the engeneer with his (often more random than good) general utility.
But why take a Thief or Engeneer when you can stealth, speed buff, teleport and haste your whole group as Mesmer?
Right, there is no reason.

Damage:
This one clearly goes to the Warrior.
The sheer amount of DPS, while still having a metric ton of health and armor, combined with easy access to some group utility leaves every competitor behind.

Rangers by far can’t keep up in DPS with a Warrior, while also not catching up with Support or Control. Besides that, they end up with lower base armor and health, making them more squishy while not making up for it.

Thieves may have some of the greatest burst (but Warrior burst is still much higher), but by no means can their dps come even close to a Warrior.
While they have some nice gimmicks like stealth, the group Mesmer fills that role already better, and in no universe they can make up for the lack of dmg, the incredible low base health, and medium armor a Thief has compared to a Warrior.

We already had a Engeneer here and there, but the picture here is still the same.
He may be a good class to fill spots if you can’t find multiple Warrs/Guardians, but by no means can’t replace them in any GW 2 Trinity profession.
____________________________________________________

Tier 1 (mandatory for reasonable gameplay)
Mesmer, Guardian, Warrior

Tier 2 (can fill spots if you can’t find multiple T1 professions, but not replace them)
Necromancer, Engeneer, Elemantalist

Tier 3 (near useless, without any potential for a mandatory role in the game)
Thief, Ranger

Bri.8354:

…to be in the same state my favorite profession in GW1 (dervish) was.

Wait. You had trouble finding groups as a dervish? That’s a shame. Our core guild “M-Team” was 3x Monk [myself included], 3x Mesmer, 1x Melandru Dervish and whoever else was available for our 8th member (usually our elementalist, we have a lot of couples in our guild – even numbered parties for the win). We relied on our Dervish quite a bit as the sole front-line woman, as our primary condition-removal, and as PBAoE damage support. While our Mesmers did most of the offensive output, and I directed traffic from the back, our lives were made much easier by having a dedicated Melandru Dervish. /sigh. The good ol’ days.

Anyway. While the ‘roles’ in ’GW’2 may not be as clearly defined, you’ll find a place to fit in .

Expect people to need to be carried by aegis the duration of the game.

When a group doesn’t have guardians, there ends up being on average 2 people in the group that just can’t even come close to handling it. They die to the easiest stuff because they never learned (and they won’t) to avoid stuff.

I wish aegis was removed entirely. Not even because I think guardians are OP or anything. I’m just sick of other players NEEDING it.

This applies especially to people who think they play on some sort of higher level because they do guild groups, when far more often than it should it tends to just boil down to “I make sure I always get to be carried by aegis”.

What you say is true, but I don’t think there is really much that Anet can do about it. It’s peoples natural tendency to take the path of least resistance, so as soon as one of the other professions becomes more effective at speed runs or high challenge content than the current set, people will be asking for that class instead.

Anet can try and do what they can to shift the emerging meta game so that each class has their turn, but I don’t think there is much they can do to get rid of it altogether.

As to CoF runs, they are my main source of income towards getting a legit legendary, and right now, I am stuck with two choices; 14 minute runs , or creating a warrior and leveling it to 80. I totally agree with the OP, you are being singled out for the choice of class you have made.

Namu.5712:

Make your own group and shut up already holy crap.

You see someone putting a mes+ war/gaurd group together for CoF why does it bother you? Just make your own or join another that doesn’t care.

Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing during their play time and play the effing game my god, the QQ in these forums about what other people are doing in game is a bit over the top.

Are you saying class balance is perfect? Or are you saying people don’t have a right to discuss class balance? Either way, you’re dead wrong.

darkace.8925:

Namu.5712:

Make your own group and shut up already holy crap.

You see someone putting a mes+ war/gaurd group together for CoF why does it bother you? Just make your own or join another that doesn’t care.

Stop worrying about what everyone else is doing during their play time and play the effing game my god, the QQ in these forums about what other people are doing in game is a bit over the top.

Are you saying class balance is perfect? Or are you saying people don’t have a right to discuss class balance? Either way, you’re dead wrong.

I didn’t say or presume to say any of those things, those are all things you said and fabricated assumptions.

What I am saying is stop the QQ about how people choose to play the game. If they want easy mode boring runs….. so what has nothing to do with you play the game you want to play it.